PDA

View Full Version : OT: Oh Lordy - RJ has a PC question - Run for the hills!



Realjambo
05-12-2007, 10:28 AM
Maybe it's my desire to get a 939 skt Dual Core CPU before they become extinct niggling away at me, but I think my PC is running slower than it used to. I haven't changed any components recently, apart from plug in a Bluetooth adaptor into my USB hub, but everything seems to take longer recently.

I've run Ewido Spyware and AVG Anti Virus scans - all clear
I've defragged my HD's - no problems
I've vacuumed out my case and fans

I've noticed the CPU idling around 50c? I'm not so sure this right, I think it should be lower?

I'd welcome any comments or suggestions ( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Smart comments will be justly ignored Bunkeratt! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

My rig:

Amd 64 4000 939 skt (1mg cache) and Arctic Pro cooled
Asus A8V XE motherboard
2gb (2x1) Crucial PC3200 ram with copper cooling jackets
XFX 7900GT gfx card with stock cooling
Creative X-FI soundcard
Western Digital 250gb ATA Hard Drive, less than 50% full
Maxtor 80gb ATA Hard Drive, 70% full
Hiper 530 PSU

Logitech MX Revolution cordless laser mouse
Saitek Eclipse II keyboard
Thermaltake Soprano Tower

Karl_Donitz_Jr
05-12-2007, 01:16 PM
urm Best directed to my brother who gave his obsecenly high-spec PC to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

I find that (and this IS true!) if my computer is being a PITA and also being very very naughty then kicking it works....

Seriously! My computer has trouble, I kick it, it fixes itself.....

That probably dosn't work for anybody else, but it works for me so may be worth a try.....??

Please Note, I take no responsibility if your computer blows up or breaks in any other way by trying that method... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Realjambo
05-12-2007, 03:42 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Thank Karl Donitz Jnr, but I have too much blood sweat money and time invested in this PC to put my boot to it! Thanks anyway - if it works for you then good on you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

bunkerratt
05-12-2007, 06:54 PM
get rid of that old hdd rj....go sata and yes 50 does seem high for the cpu ...a good idle temp should be read about after an hr of doing nothing...and no i won't bust your chops ...temp probs lead to greater things ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

VikingGrandad
05-14-2007, 07:36 AM
I have an AMD 64 3700 939 skt with an Arctic Freezer Pro - usual temp is around 35-37°C. I don't have any special case cooling, just the two rear fans that came with my Antec case.

EDIT - is your CPU cooler blowing the right way?

Goose_Green
05-14-2007, 08:24 AM
That temperature seems rather high RJ

My Athlon64 X2 4600 CPU is running at 30 degrees C after 1.5 hours of running just DVD's - no serious work I know but after playing games it does go up to about 31 degrees.

Even though the cooler maybe pointed the wrong way it wouldn't make a huge difference in temperature readings. I mounted my cooler the wrong way when I first installed it but I never had that high temperature reading before putting it the right way round.

What sort of case have you got RJ?
Are you getting enough air circulation?
Have you enough fans working?

I realise I have a very good case (Antec P180) but I have found that with 4 120mm fans working the chassis tempertaure is running at 30 degrees too.

Realjambo
05-14-2007, 09:25 AM
Thanks for your thoughts guys.

@ Goose - I have the Thermaltake Soprano Tower:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/sop2.jpg
It has a 120mm exhaust fan, a 120mm intake fan, and a 92mm side vent fan.

Hos do I know which way round is correct for mounting the Arctic Pro?

BTW. currently it's idling at 47c and the fan speed is only 807rpm! Perhaps the fan unit is on it's way out.

I'll just have to go and buy that dual core cpu - that'll sove ALL my problems http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

PS: Link for my Tower and it's spec (http://www.thermaltake.com/xaserCase/soprano/bws/bws.htm)

Minoos
05-14-2007, 09:29 AM
RJ's computer case ( Thermaltake Soprano ):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/DSCF0761.jpg

50?C is pretty high for the CPU. Are there any background tasks putting a severe load to the CPU?

Make sure that your hard drives are not running in PIO mode ( check the IDE channel properties in the device manager ).

VikingGrandad
05-14-2007, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by Realjambo:

How do I know which way round is correct for mounting the Arctic Pro?

I'll double check when I get home, but from memory the fan should point towards the front of the case and the big metal heatsink behind the fan should point towards the back of the case.

I just found an example on Google:

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r44/ant1228/AC-PRO64-003.jpg

bunkerratt
05-14-2007, 10:03 AM
bro i think the fan is about to giveup the ghost....

Realjambo
05-14-2007, 10:07 AM
I think you could be right BR.

As for the direction of the fan, here's a shot I just took - This version of fan you can only have in one direction.

Oh by the way, it may look dusty but I can assure you it isn't!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/CaseShot.jpg

VikingGrandad
05-14-2007, 10:38 AM
Have you checked to see that the fan is mounted securely? Did you use some decent thermal paste? If not, it might be worth trying if you're still stuck.

Also, do have any software (e.g. the ASUS Utility) that tells you what speed the fan is running at?

What temps are your graphics card running and motherboard running at?

Cold Meat Platter
05-14-2007, 10:42 AM
hi there
just popping in from the IL2 forums
looks (from that photo) like your CPU heatsink is pretty much clogged up with fluff. You're going to need to clean that either by blowing canned air through it after taking the fan off or removing it altogether for a proper clean. Bear in mind, though, that if you remove the heatsink you will have to apply new thermal paste to the cpu/heatsink.
EDIT: i see i am lacking in reading skills, you already mentioned that it isn't dusty. aargh. what VikingGrandad said

you from edinburgh RealJambo?

Realjambo
05-14-2007, 10:50 AM
Have you checked to see that the fan is mounted securely? Did you use some decent thermal paste? If not, it might be worth trying if you're still stuck.

Also, do have any software (e.g. the ASUS Utility) that tells you what speed the fan is running at?

What temps are your graphics card running and motherboard running at?

Thanks VG, I use Asus Probe for fan speeds and temps, where's the gpu temp? I can't find it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif I thought it was in the Nvidia Manager somewhere? I used Arctic Cooling thermal paste, and yes I'll check I haven't dislodged the fan from it's mountings.

This is a screenshot of the temps:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/temps.jpg

Realjambo
05-14-2007, 11:10 AM
you from edinburgh RealJambo?

Thanks for your comments, no, I'm South Coast UK. And I will pick up a can of air. (Always made me chuckle that - a 'Can I have a can of air please?' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)

Kaleun1961
05-14-2007, 02:39 PM
Some tips about using canned air: Because it is a compressed gas, it cools as it is expelled. You will notice the can chilling as you use it. DO NOT spray it too closely against printed circuits, like sound card and video card. I've heard that you can freeze delicate circuitry and the deep contraction due to chilling can break them. Perhaps that is a myth? I don't know; just be careful and use the spray in short bursts. Use the little plastic straw extender to direct the air where you want it.

If you choose to remove the heat sink for cleaning, make sure you completely loosen off its clamps and release the CPU clamp. The CPU may come out of the socket still attached to the heat sink. Doesn't always happen, though, and you have to lift it from the socket. Clean the old thermal paste off and then reapply fresh paste, or compound as it is alternatively known. CAREFULLY place the CPU back into its socket, noting the orientation of the pins, and then clamp it down. Then put the heatsink in place and lock it down.

DO NOT try to put it all back together at once. In other words, don't stick the heat sink to the CPU and then try to put it back into the socket. You will most likely mangle it, as I did the first time I tried this. I had removed my brother's heat sink to clean it, as it was totally clogged with dust. The CPU came off with it and I stupidly tried to put it back as one assembly. Result: mangled CPU pins. This was before I had taken tech courses and learned how to do it properly. Trying to take a shortcut cost me bigtime. Take the time to do it right and patiently and you will save yourself potential heartache and cost. Unless of course, you really need an excuse to replace the CPU: "Honey, I mangled the CPU pins, need to go down to the shops and buy a new one." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

To recap: Make sure the socket clamp is released, apply fresh thermal compound to the backside of the CPU die, insert it into the socket and then clamp it down. Then align the heatsink and carefully lock it into place. I think you may have already done something like this before; you've put together one or two systems if memory serves me. Anyhow, just a refresher for a mate in the hopes that you don't make my mistake.

Looking at your case, I see you do not have an air duct leading from the side fan to the CPU heatsink. Most new cases these days have adjustable air ducts, which channel air from the side fan to the CPU heat sink. When you pop down to the shops for your can of air, ask to see some newer system cases. You will then have an idea what I'm on about. The benefit of such a duct, or air channel, is that it ensures an uninterrupted flow of fresh [cool] air to the CPU heat sink. Your CPU fan then does not have to try to cool the CPU with air from the interior of the case, which is likely higher in temperature than fresh air from outside the case. Without an air duct, the CPU heat sink fan has to contend against conflicting air flows inside the case. A vortex or internal blockage [from cables, etc.] could result in your fan forcing less air volume through and over the heat sink's fins.

Don't despair, you needn't buy a new case. You can fabricate your own out of PVC plumbing material, flexible dryer exhaust or even sheet metal, then attach it yourself. I've seen guides on the Internet which show you how to do this. Studies have shown that this measure alone can achieve as much as 10-15 degrees of extra cooling. Worth looking into.

Realjambo
05-14-2007, 02:49 PM
@K61 - Thanks very much for your post, good advice indeed. I appreciate the time you took to write that, and I'll look into making an air duct http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Kaleun1961
05-14-2007, 05:38 PM
Some good system case advice in this column:

Guid to buying a good computer case (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/55370/guide_to_buying_a_good_computer_case.html)

Excerpt from the above link, which makes the same point I made in my previous post:

"Side air vent(s). A few years ago cases were introduced that had a vent in the side of the case, directly above the CPU. These vents provide fresh, cool air from outside directly to the CPU, which allows it to stay significantly cooler, and the CPU fan also stays significantly quieter. If you think about a case without a side vent for the CPU, air comes in through the front, past your hard drives (some of the hottest components in a computer), then through most of the hot inside of the computer before reaching the CPU. By then the air cooling the CPU is only a little cooler than the CPU itself. If you know your physics, you know that heat transfers faster when the temperature difference is the highest. The inside of your case is usually 10-15oC hotter than room temperature, so the less of your case the air has to travel through the better. Newer cases come with a vent for your graphics card as well, and the same rules apply there."

And:

Things to Avoid
The following are things that will actually hurt the performance of your computer.

> A side fan. It looks great on paper, right? I mean, how can having another fan not be good for your computer? Let's consider the two scenarios. If the fan is blowing air into the case from the side, it disrupts the smooth front-to-back airflow that's already there. And if it's sucking air out, it's taking air away from the CPU, which means the CPU fan has to work harder to get the same amount of air to the CPU. Neither of these is better than what you already have without a side fan.

> Air filters on any vents in the case. While they keep dust out of the computer, they also make it harder for air to come in and go out of the case. This either causes your fans to spin faster or your case temperature to go up, neither of which is good. You're better off opening up the case once a month and using a vaccuum cleaner to clean out the dust (don't worry, it's not harmful at all as long as you don't knock anything loose - I do it all the time).


I'm not 100% with his advice about filters. I have an Antec case with intake filters on the front of the case. These are easily removable and can be easily cleaned under running water. Bottom line? If you have filters, keep them clean! Don't let them get plugged up, or airflow will be seriously impeded. My case also has the power supply in a separate case under the motherboard compartment, where again it has its own dedicated airflow.

If your case has a side vent with air duct, make sure to leave a gap of about half an inch between the end of the duct and the surface of the CPU's heat sink.

capt_frank
05-15-2007, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by Karl_Donitz_Jr:
urm Best directed to my brother who gave his obsecenly high-spec PC to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

I find that (and this IS true!) if my computer is being a PITA and also being very very naughty then kicking it works....

Seriously! My computer has trouble, I kick it, it fixes itself.....

That probably dosn't work for anybody else, but it works for me so may be worth a try.....??

Please Note, I take no responsibility if your computer blows up or breaks in any other way by trying that method... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

That reminds me of when i always carried a hammer in my car for when the starter gave me problems. A coupla' taps on the solenoid with the hammer and away I went.

Modern tech at its best!

lecek
05-15-2007, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by Realjambo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Have you checked to see that the fan is mounted securely? Did you use some decent thermal paste? If not, it might be worth trying if you're still stuck.

Also, do have any software (e.g. the ASUS Utility) that tells you what speed the fan is running at?

What temps are your graphics card running and motherboard running at?

Thanks VG, I use Asus Probe for fan speeds and temps, where's the gpu temp? I can't find it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif I thought it was in the Nvidia Manager somewhere? I used Arctic Cooling thermal paste, and yes I'll check I haven't dislodged the fan from it's mountings.

This is a screenshot of the temps:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/temps.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude your CPU fan is only showing 927 RPM for a 48C CPU. Mine (AMD 64 X2 4200 AM2) shows more then 3k RPM for a 40C CPU.

Do you have you power saving modes on for that fan?

Realjambo
05-15-2007, 08:28 AM
Do you have you power saving modes on for that fan?


No I don't. I wondered if AMD Cool N' Quiet had kicked in but it hasn't. I think I best order myself a new fan!

Minoos
05-15-2007, 08:38 AM
Fan speed would either be controlled by the motherboard ( Check the BIOS ) or by the Asus software suite.

bunkerratt
05-15-2007, 09:09 AM
fast fix...open the case...place 30 inch box fan near open case ...turn fan on ..now drive rapidly to pc kit store...purchase new cpu cooler....

Realjambo
05-15-2007, 09:32 AM
Thanks everyone.

Last thing then before I order a new fan - What am I looking for in the Bios Minoos? Something to indicate that the motherboard isn't controlling the fan speeds?

Minoos
05-15-2007, 09:46 AM
It is called Q-Fan control
http://www.3dnews.ru/documents/8045/bios_health.jpg

bunkerratt
05-15-2007, 09:46 AM
rj...it should be in the hardware monitor section of the bios ..under the q fan settings ..i belive ...your not on the same mobo but it's still asus ...

bunkerratt
05-15-2007, 09:47 AM
lmao

Realjambo
05-25-2007, 09:04 AM
Right then! We've made progress - thanks to everyone who posted to help me out. I kind of took advice from all of you. I took a can of compressed air and gently put it over the major components, especially the cpu fan and cooling fins, and cleaned out all the case fans and vents but still no improvement.

Replaced the cpu fan, having cleaned the CPU with proper TIM Cleaner, with a new Arctic Cooling 64 Pro which does indeed blow the hot air towards the exhaust fan at the back of the case as per your example VG.

Been running an hour or so now and I've got 2191 CPU fan rpm - a clear improvement, and CPU temp is 42 but I think that's because the thermal compund is brand new and it is a hot and stuffy day here?

The only odd thing is I still don't have that 'Q Fan Control' in my BIOS? Anyone disagree with that CPU temp?

Thanks for all your help http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

bunkerratt
05-25-2007, 09:16 AM
well ok..first question.did you have the system set up on the cutty sark?



temp doesn't look to bad man..fan speed is good ...give it a day then resecure the mounting screws for the cpu cooler ....DOnot over tighten them and crack the board..but i belive you should be ok...it's an amd ..and i run intel cpu's ...so the zact temps would be more for the amd dudes to comment on..but it looks like your going to be ok man..

Minoos
05-25-2007, 12:22 PM
RJ, it would be interesting to check your motherboard ( chipset ) temperature to CPU. Under regular conditions, your board temperature should be within 5 degrees of the ambient temperature.

BTW: Q-Fan is not available on your motherboard, only the Deluxe and E versions have the fan control...

Realjambo
05-25-2007, 01:09 PM
RJ, it would be interesting to check your motherboard ( chipset ) temperature to CPU. Under regular conditions, your board temperature should be within 5 degrees of the ambient temperature.

BTW: Q-Fan is not available on your motherboard, only the Deluxe and E versions have the fan control...

Thanks Minoos. Motherboard temp is 34c, CPU is coming down - it's now 38c at idle so the 5 degrees margin bears out.

The Q Fan - Of course, you're right. I had it on my old Motherboard - that was the K8V SE Deluxe. I really liked that board but it was 754skt and had to go when I went to 939.

Minoos
05-25-2007, 01:25 PM
I think that your computer desk keeps warm air behind your case ... cut-off the rear desk panel please! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Realjambo
05-25-2007, 01:58 PM
You may have a point there Minoos - it's enclosed on two sides. Now just let me get this thing started....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/poulan_gas_chainsaw.jpg

Realjambo
05-25-2007, 02:13 PM
Now this is curious! I load up Hitman: Blood Money. 5 minutes in and I get the Asus Probe CPU fan alarm blaring out.

The fan is running at 2191, cpu temp is 39 - not unreasonable!! The cpu fan speed readout is in green, not red - so why the alarm? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Anyone?

bunkerratt
05-25-2007, 05:04 PM
reset the limits or thresholds ...aka as the limits for the alarms ...open up the probe program in full ....

bunkerratt
05-25-2007, 05:14 PM
you do have the manual for the mobo ..right?