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Col_Tibbetts
02-08-2005, 03:23 PM
OK, before you all get out the flamethrowers listen up. I realise that Oleg is doing his best and I know that he needs to move on to BoB. I am just a little bummed that it looks like PF will not grow as much as IL2 has.

It seems like we will get some new maps and planes which is great but we will never see what IL2 has evolved into. You know, something like PF+something+something just as IL2 turned into PF+FB+AEP.

I guess I understand it all. Oleg is a European. This game is a European game. The Pacific war was mostly a Japanese/American conflict so I understand why Oleg isn't as interested in it as he is the Eurpoean theatre.

I and may others have looked at the IL2 series through an Amero-centric prisim. I still do, I can't help it. That is why we whine about the lack of certian American planes or bombers. We are trying to turn a European sim into an American sim. I can't fault Oleg for a sim with an emphasis on Europe. That is where he is from. If I created this sim it would emphasise the American perspective of the war. That's just human nature.

I guess we won't see another quality Pacific sim in a long time. This one unfortunately is burning out. Oleg is turning away further 3rd Party development, etc. I guess this means that the guy who started on the interior of the B29 is out of luck.

I am not complaining. Oleg needs to work on BoB. It's just that from an American point of view the need for another European theatre sim over a Pacific sim seems silly.

S! to Oleg and all that. There, I have paid my respects so no flames. I am just a little dissapointed that PF will have stunted growth.

Col_Tibbetts
02-08-2005, 03:23 PM
OK, before you all get out the flamethrowers listen up. I realise that Oleg is doing his best and I know that he needs to move on to BoB. I am just a little bummed that it looks like PF will not grow as much as IL2 has.

It seems like we will get some new maps and planes which is great but we will never see what IL2 has evolved into. You know, something like PF+something+something just as IL2 turned into PF+FB+AEP.

I guess I understand it all. Oleg is a European. This game is a European game. The Pacific war was mostly a Japanese/American conflict so I understand why Oleg isn't as interested in it as he is the Eurpoean theatre.

I and may others have looked at the IL2 series through an Amero-centric prisim. I still do, I can't help it. That is why we whine about the lack of certian American planes or bombers. We are trying to turn a European sim into an American sim. I can't fault Oleg for a sim with an emphasis on Europe. That is where he is from. If I created this sim it would emphasise the American perspective of the war. That's just human nature.

I guess we won't see another quality Pacific sim in a long time. This one unfortunately is burning out. Oleg is turning away further 3rd Party development, etc. I guess this means that the guy who started on the interior of the B29 is out of luck.

I am not complaining. Oleg needs to work on BoB. It's just that from an American point of view the need for another European theatre sim over a Pacific sim seems silly.

S! to Oleg and all that. There, I have paid my respects so no flames. I am just a little dissapointed that PF will have stunted growth.

Zneg1
02-08-2005, 03:27 PM
I won't go into specifics but my impression is that the Pacific Theatre did leave a bad taste in the mouth it seems for Oleg and crew. The European Theatre does not have the 'complexities' of PF. I guess you guys know what this is about http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RedToo
02-08-2005, 03:30 PM
Time moves on. IL2/FB/PF is old now.

Obi_Kwiet
02-08-2005, 03:46 PM
Yeah, what with that idiot company demanding money from Oleg to use their AC. He should have told them to shut up. He probably could have gotten away with it too.

VW-IceFire
02-08-2005, 04:40 PM
I think the plans for more American aircraft were squashed because of American companies and their legal friends rather than any feeling of distaste for American aircraft.

Still, in online matches, the USAAF and USN have everything they really need at their disposal. What I'd be looking for is not in the way of more of the ultra late war stuff but things like the Avenger flyable, the Helldiver, the Devastator, oh and the A-26 would be a good one too (forget the complicated P-61, the A-26 would be a great ground pounder with a ton of firepower). But I think most of that is for naught.

So development has inevitably shifted towards the European theater because there's plenty of British aircraft missing, a few German, and a few Russian here and there. So the shift is back this way...

Of course, what'd be really great is some focus on the CBI and the British/Commonwealth efforts against the Japanese. That'd still be in PF's forte but with a unique focus.

stansdds
02-08-2005, 04:44 PM
Pacific Fighters is based on the old Il-2 Sturmovik engine. Oleg's Battle of Britain will be based on a new engine that promises to be far more versatile. Why should he spend more time on an old sim when the new sim will likely be expandable to a Pacific war? Seems to me Pacific Fighters has simply pushed the old sim engine to its limits and it's time for a new engine.

9th_Spitin
02-08-2005, 04:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedToo:
Time moves on. IL2/FB/PF is _old_ now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And unfinished. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

asurob11963
02-08-2005, 04:59 PM
I have to admit, Im somewhat dissappointed if this turns out to be the case. I purchased il2AEP so I could learn to fly prior to the release of PF. I love all the planes, but I really really wanted a pacific flight sim to call my own. When I saw the amazing support they gave for their earlier product (iL2AEP) I knew PF would be incredible. Well I havent been dissappointed with the planes we have...I just wish we could get more ship types to bomb with, and maybe a torpedo plane or two. I thought for sure that would happen based again on iL2AEP....now I'm doubtful. I look forward to 3.05 eagerly...Im hoping to see the claude, and a few other early war planes (targets). I just feel like this engine isnt done...(Im one of the weird ones who could care less about BOB but will still buy it to show support for Oleg).

AlmightyTallest
02-08-2005, 05:01 PM
Pacific Fighters is also touted as a new stand alone sim. I purchased it as such because I am interested in this theater.

I thought it would have gotten the same attention to detail and additional free and paid addons from Oleg like IL2FB in the future. I pretty much have to agree with Col_Tibbets in that I'm sorry to see the Pacific Theater won't get the attention the European theaters have, and had.

I'm also worried that since BoB is still a year or more away yet, it might be 5 years or more before we see Oleg get back around to the Pacific Theater, if he even attempts it again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Latico
02-08-2005, 05:05 PM
So quick to write this sim off, heh?

There are many things that could be done to add to FB/AEP/PF. More maps could come down the pike in the future. Let's not forget that the fighting didn't just up and start on 7 Dec 41. It had been going on for a while in SE Asia and China. There are so many parts of the PTO that are not covered by current maps in PF.

Ic could even add the Mediteranian Theater if they wanted.

Just because something is "old" doesn't necessarily mean it's in it's death throws. Some things get better with age, ya know.

VW-IceFire
02-08-2005, 05:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by asurob11963:
I have to admit, Im somewhat dissappointed if this turns out to be the case. I purchased il2AEP so I could learn to fly prior to the release of PF. I love all the planes, but I really really wanted a pacific flight sim to call my own. When I saw the amazing support they gave for their earlier product (iL2AEP) I knew PF would be incredible. Well I havent been dissappointed with the planes we have...I just wish we could get more ship types to bomb with, and maybe a torpedo plane or two. I thought for sure that would happen based again on iL2AEP....now I'm doubtful. I look forward to 3.05 eagerly...Im hoping to see the claude, and a few other early war planes (targets). I just feel like this engine isnt done...(Im one of the weird ones who could care less about BOB but will still buy it to show support for Oleg). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's still stuff yet to come...don't toss it down yet.

Weather_Man
02-08-2005, 05:09 PM
I am sooo ready for a new sim. PF can quietly go away for all I care. Il2 engine is a been there done that for me. I'm eagerly awaiting to be wowed again with BoB.

the_soupdragon
02-08-2005, 05:19 PM
To be honest I know where this post is coming from and I feel for the poster, but, I would disagree with the statement that the Pacific Theatre is being ignored due to Oleg being a European. PF came to the Il2 engine from a third party (Ilya?). It also came quite late in the day as the Il2 engine was begining to show its age and Oleg had already anounced his next work would be a BoB sim, but, Oleg took the PF project under his wing and helped as much as possible. PF was Released but had to be rushed as UBI was leaning on 1C to get it out the door and crack on with BoB (for some reason). We are now in a situation where due to copyright law (and someones balls up) some aicraft will not be released (due to US aircraft companies greed). But 1C has said a patch will be delivered and I believe it will. What it will and CAN contain is now probably up to the Lawyers.
it is a shame but things must move on. No-one id to blame. It just happens.
One thing that is a shame is that it would seem that the new maps are to be Eastern front maps. While I do not have a problem with this is does seem as if the Pacific contingent is being fobbed off with a second rate sim.

SD

indylavi
02-08-2005, 05:25 PM
I don't think PF would get the same attention as the ETO because the ETO is more popular. I see PF as the last big push before moving on to a new game. I think (or hope) that PF will still get updates but I don't think it will be near the same updates as the ETO unless they hand the game out to 3rd party modders

Equilizer
02-08-2005, 05:28 PM
The Il2 engine is done. It has glaring issues that will hopefully be resolved in BoB. We have an engine not designed for multi-engine aircraft, carrier operations, or planes with no torque (jets + P38). Yet, we have them available in a forced mating leaving us with inaccurate renditions. Not to mention the spin/stall behaviour and poor AI.

It is time to drop the support on an old engine when it can't do what's being demanded of it. Yes, PF is incomplete. We don't have Maddox games to blame for this though.

walsh2509
02-08-2005, 05:34 PM
Why should he spend more time on an old sim


Old sim? where? PF was released just over 3 months ago! PF was a new stand alone sim, the fact that oleg choose to make it compatible with the IL2 Series was a BONUS for the people who bought that series, PF's was not an ADD On for IL2+...

This sim was released early and on 2 discs yet at the time there was 3 discs worth of code, but the powers that be, decided to release it on 2 and we were told that the "missing" material would be on its way to us soon..

The material I and others are STILL waiting on its not an ADD ON but part of PF's that was left out at the time no dobut to save someone money, I have bought plenty of games over the years and have bought 3 disc games and even 4 disc ones! that excuse what ever it was , was noting to do with not being able to load it onto 3 discs.

I want the missing material planes and whatever else that was meant to be on the 3rd disc, that is what I paid (34.99 UK) for!

The fact that the ships in the sim are all the same just flying different flags I can live with! I don't like it but what can I do! I see it as shoddy workmanship lazy at best!

And for those who come on and flame me! I know this is a Flight Sim, yes it is! Its a NAVAL FLIGHT Sim were for the most part two navy's went at each other using there Naval Flight Wings and not just on war ships but tankers and other supply ships.

Imagine a WWII Tank Busting Flight Sim where the main weapons are not in it! or that they pick the Tiger Tank and paint it up in German and Russian colours, and you were told well its a Flight Sim and there tanks in it!


What will finish off Sims like these will be that people will get turned off by companies releasing 3/4 done sims and tell you don't worry there's a patch for the rest of it on the way! Only to find out that instead of issuing the rest of the Sim and working on any bugs that finished sim might have, you find out that there now working on there next project and not only is what's missing from the original taking a back seat! but any add-ons that would build the sim up look even further away if not dead before they start!

DarkCanuck420
02-08-2005, 05:35 PM
Maybe after BoB they will port over PF and add a ton of stuff and will sell it for cheap to make up for it...*wakes up* wishful thinking
I started off with PF, and I liked it enough to get into FB/AEP yes after seeing how much was in FB PF seemed more like an expansion but its still a great game!

Out with the old in with the new. I know that by making PF a standalone/add-on they were trying to lure in new fans. i dont know if it worked in their favor or not. They need to cut their losses with PF (still patch/minor additions) and get the ball rolling with BoB. Which should set the standard for flight sims for greater part of the next decade.

================================================

3.JG51_BigBear
02-08-2005, 06:03 PM
My 2 cents:

I'm really kinda sad that Oleg actually agreed to do PF. The whole idea of an all third party addon/stand alone seemed like a major hastle, which apparently it turned out to be. The third party modellers put a lot of time and effort into their models but many were not up to the big man's standards and the dvelopment team seems to have used a lot of time that they would have rather put into BOB reworking PF models. The result was sort of a half measure. I don't think PF is really up to the high standards set by the original Il2 or FB (I wasn't a huge fan of the AEP either). Its unfortunate that this very important theatre won't get the treatment it deservers in this fine sim but I'm glad to see that development for BOB is still underway http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif (after all the hastles they've had with PF I was getting worried BOB would become vaporware) and I look forward to whatever else is left to get for PF.

heywooood
02-08-2005, 07:17 PM
I think the commitment is there -
it is true, however that some unforseen setbacks occurred, but my understanding from what Oleg has said recently leads me to believe that there are completed planes ready to be coded into the sim as time allows.

And ianboys has some new maps that will be ready soon..

Also - that there can be modifications to the code to allow for new effects, such as the fire and smoke and splash effects recently added/altered....so FB/PF is far from over.

3.JG51_BigBear
02-08-2005, 07:28 PM
I don't know, I'd almost rather see it die in favor of the new and improved sim or at least passed off to a qualified team other than Oleg's so that work can continue full force on BOB and some small-scale development can continue on PF.

p1ngu666
02-08-2005, 07:30 PM
my grandad was a medic in burma, so id very much like a burma map. plus the terrain seems interesting...

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666/burmamap.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666/burmamap2.jpg

3.JG51_BigBear
02-08-2005, 07:42 PM
I agree that there is plenty of material that we could use in the Pacific Theatre. In fact I find the Pacific far more interesting than European theatres of air combat, but I don't think its going to be explored as fully as any of the hardcore fans would like. I'd be willing to wager that this addition to the game has left a sour taste in Oleg's mouth for a number of reasons and I'm sure UBI would really like to see a new engine turned out which they could charge for than continued support for a game that, quite frankly, they've already made their money on. Which is all fine for me, I can't wait for BOB.

PS My grandfather also served in the Pacific flying P-61 night fighters for a very short time right at the tail end of the war. I was really hoping we would get one. He did also fly the P-80 in Korea and liked it a hell of a lot better so I was really happy when we got that one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

carguy_
02-08-2005, 07:49 PM
I wasn`t surprised by the message that soon IL2 series will lose all support.The game is old,a fact,but it is certainly not too old to be furtherly extended.

Why Oleg is making another BoB theater sim beats me.The western front got covered very good right here(although no Lancasters pffft) but Africa,Mediterranean,Korea and lastly the PTO leave so much to be desired!


As for me,the LW had their pawns everywhere so a flyable Me109 is not endangered.Though I will have to wait for the Gustav once BoB comes out.I feel for all aircraft fans that can`t fly their favorites.

Yea yea I know BoB is planned to be widely extended onto other theaters but why the heck is the Battle of Britain the nominal theater?!
The planeset is just soooo narrow!

eddiemac0
02-08-2005, 09:29 PM
yeah, the narrow planeset confuses me too

I would have thought that BoB would encompass all of the war in Western Europe, and that Il-2 would go East, West, East, West (Fb, AEP, PF, BOB. Except that BoB meant, Western Europe Air War. Kind of like CFS 1-3 (not to draw any connections...), but whatever happens I'll be happy... I have my P-38J, F4U-1D, and F6F-5, and by the time I'll require a new rig for BoB, I'll finally be able to run the old engine without stutters. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Look at the bright sides of things I suppose...

johann63
02-08-2005, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stansdds:
Pacific Fighters is based on the old Il-2 Sturmovik engine. Oleg's Battle of Britain will be based on a new engine that promises to be far more versatile. Why should he spend more time on an old sim when the new sim will likely be expandable to a Pacific war? Seems to me Pacific Fighters has simply pushed the old sim engine to its limits and it's time for a new engine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Complete can be a relative term when the software engine is developing from underneath this sim.

Onward and upward I say.

F4U_Flyer
02-08-2005, 10:29 PM
"Sniff" dont tease me like this !!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Tuba2004
02-08-2005, 11:14 PM
As much as I hate to think/say it, "What makes you think the same treatment will not happen in BOB?" It's my fault. I wanted a Pacific sim sooo much I purchased too soon believing and trusting that it would be finished and supported as IL2-Aces is. The age of the IL2 engine was known by the developers so I really can't accept that as an excuse. There will always be an improved something or other but that doesn't mean you only partly finish the project on which you are working.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME! It will have to be a fully finished and tested game before I even consider purchasing from this company. Poor Oleg he got shafted from all sides on this one.

WOLFMondo
02-09-2005, 12:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Col_Tibbetts:
OK, before you all get out the flamethrowers listen up. I realise that Oleg is doing his best and I know that he needs to move on to BoB. I am just a little bummed that it looks like PF will not grow as much as IL2 has. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean? Its part of the FBhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

PF is the end of the development cycle for the IL2 engine but theres still more to comehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

csThor
02-09-2005, 01:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eddiemac0:
yeah, the narrow planeset confuses me too

I would have thought that BoB would encompass all of the war in Western Europe, and that Il-2 would go East, West, East, West (Fb, AEP, PF, BOB. Except that BoB meant, Western Europe Air War. Kind of like CFS 1-3 (not to draw any connections...), but whatever happens I'll be happy... I have my P-38J, F4U-1D, and F6F-5, and by the time I'll require a new rig for BoB, I'll finally be able to run the old engine without stutters. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Look at the bright sides of things I suppose... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you start something completely new from scratch it is always a wise idea to keep the focus of your project narrow so you can spend more ressources on key issues instead of having to spread them and achieve only mediocre results.

In our words: Having a small planeset is a good thing when you're making a completely new engine. This engine will need constant testing, bugfixing, checks and other stuff. This takes time and manpower and you can do that more easily if you don't have to tell your folks to work on myriads of different planes.

ploughman
02-09-2005, 02:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yea yea I know BoB is planned to be widely extended onto other theaters but why the heck is the Battle of Britain the nominal theater?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Chronology. As the song goes..."let's start at the very begining..." 3rd parties are sorting out Poland (and maybe Battle of France) so '39-'41 in Europe are covered.

2. It'll be a good demonstrator for just about everything a WWII flight sim might need; intergrated air defence systems with radar, sector controllers and interceptions, observers, tactical, maritime and strategic bombing, day/night bombing, large formations in attack and defence. Loads of stuff. You think the plane set is too narrow, he can only do so much at once and it's better he does it right. The chronological aspect of the game might mean you have to wait a little while for the late-war uber planes but then they'll be right on the money when they come. I may be a million miles out but;

1. BoB.39-41. As advertised, sets things up nicely.
2. Med. 40-43. Expanded planesets, emphasis on maritime, recon, UK naval and tactical airforces. Give Oleg a trial run on carrier ops and naval warfare for the big one to come.
3. Barbarossa. 41-45 VVS and Luft. IL2 Sturmovik for the BoB engine. Includes some late war US planes.
4. Pacific War. 41-45. Carrier ops, etc, . Look out for the China air war add on.
5. Air War over Europe. 43-45, Bombers and other strategic weapons. Fly Lancasters, B-17s, B-24s, etc, Tactical fighters and attack ships, D-Day landings plus lots of late war maps.
6. Luft 46. Experimental, just missed the war, and other special weapons.
7. Air War Korea.

Should keep Oleg in beer until he's taught the kid to code.

HotelBushranger
02-09-2005, 02:44 AM
Do you think a lot, if not all planes will be playable with the new engine, so there's never someone going 'Why is this AI only?'
I know I was incredibly disappointed when I couldn't fly the Po-2.

Also, with the Med conflict, I'm not an expert on the field, so how much maratime involvement was there? I haven't read anything on ships in the theatre, all I know is Air Force operations http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif out of place here, don't you think?
And how bout a desert theatre, I don't know if that includes in Med, I think it does, but thats prob what I want most at the moment.

PS Why a Korea, what's that got to do with WW2? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I want a WW1 and chopper sim first! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers

csThor
02-09-2005, 02:57 AM
I severely doubt we will see any of FB/PF's planes in BoB. We have seen a few development pics of early modelling shots and these crates were far more detailed than the old FB/PF planes. Making a completely new model is always easier than adapting an older model to new standards.

sapre
02-09-2005, 02:59 AM
Where does it say support for PF is over? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 03:17 AM
It doesn't. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif
Tibbets was just pulling your legg, that's why you don't see Oleg's emil posted in this thread.

ploughman
02-09-2005, 04:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Also, with the Med conflict, I'm not an expert on the field, so how much maratime involvement was there? I haven't read anything on ships in the theatre, all I know is Air Force operations out of place here, don't you think? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A Med theatre should include North Africa, Malta, and perhaps Crete. There'd be Shed loads of maritime stuff. Lots anti-shipping action on both sides. Suda Bay and the evacuation of Allied troops from Crete under fire, the RN's toughest day since Jutland. The Taranto raid, a sort of Pearl Harbor in miniature (the venerable Genda, who planned Pearl Harbor was in Italy at the time, saw the effects of the British Carrier launched raid on the Italian fleet in port and thought...hmmm). The defence of Malta involved delivering aircraft from carriers, providing cover for convoys on resupply, and beating off the Axis hordes. From Malta, anti-shipping missions against Axis supply lines to North Africa and the recreation of legendary recon missions. The defence of Greece, a handfull of Allied Aircraft against hundreds of German and Italian aircraft. That's just some of what it might be about even before you get involved in then tooing and froing in North Africa and fighting the good fight there. The Med is a really good theatre to get involved in as it involves just about everything aspect of air-warfare you could possibly think of.

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 04:21 AM
What needs to be seen is an entire Med Map, like LOMAC and Flaker series had one big Crimea map. That would make Med campaign more continous and easy to make. Small portions of the big map can be broken into small maps for onwhine dogfight.

scottmal1
02-09-2005, 04:38 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I think the plans for more American aircraft were squashed because of American companies and their legal friends rather than any feeling of distaste for American aircraft.

Looks like the Americans spoiled it for the Americans!

Spitf_ACE
02-09-2005, 05:28 AM
I thought the plan for BoB was one large continuous map, from norhtern England across the channel down into France.

The AI was being reworked so that it only kicked in when they were in the same vacinity as you.

Imagine thousands of planes all over a European map each doing their own thing (ie just moving from A to B), but suddenly becoming intelligent as you flew into their zone.

This would be amazing for any theatre, and this should be the route that 1C take with additional maps (I imagine a new map would be quite a big deal for us as it would add a whole new theatre, along with the new planes).

If this is the plan, BoB would be the standard for many years to come. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

FF_Trozaka
02-09-2005, 05:40 AM
I hope they continue with the pacific theatre stuff, to be honest i have avoided ETO since PF came out.. i am just a bit burned out on europe and russia. BOB will be cool (i always did love flying over the channel in EAW) but til then i will be hanging out in the south pacific. CBI maps are sure to come, we already have the skins for the AVG in game, that will help some.
S!

Freycinet
02-09-2005, 06:33 AM
Strange. So many people frequenting this forum even though they seem to be terribly disappointed by PF and having a lousy time playing it.

PF is a kick-*** sim with more US and japanese planes featured than in any combat sim before. It has received heaps of developer support. Before development is closed it will receive all the planes promised + a lot that weren't.

Yeah, you guys have been terribly shafted. Oh dear, what suffering you have gone through.

Equilizer
02-09-2005, 06:35 AM
I fail to see how a game focused around aircraft can get better just because the visual effects can be changed or improved when the underlying main area of interaction, the flight model, can't be improved to better represent flying.

For all the eye candy, there are still glaring omissions in the fm's calculations that leave a lot to be desired.

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 06:48 AM
Spitf_ACE:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I thought the plan for BoB was one large continuous map, from norhtern England across the channel down into France.

The AI was being reworked so that it only kicked in when they were in the same vacinity as you.

Imagine thousands of planes all over a European map each doing their own thing (ie just moving from A to B), but suddenly becoming intelligent as you flew into their zone.

This would be amazing for any theatre, and this should be the route that 1C take with additional maps (I imagine a new map would be quite a big deal for us as it would add a whole new theatre, along with the new planes).

If this is the plan, BoB would be the standard for many years to come. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Think about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif AI planes do nothing but move from A to B unless they are within the Player's "zone" which is visual range I guess.

Player could never fly to help friendly bombers being attacked by enemy fighters because the enemy would never attack any bombers until you got close. To win the WAR, you just sit on the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That would be the worst disaster a flight sim could be.

However...I do know the 1995 DOS Su~27 Flaker 1.0 could have 100 aircraft plus some SAMs in air combat at one time, and that was with 133MHz Pentium 1, and the dogfights were as challenging as FB/PF dogfights. Something has gone wrong if 10 years later and 20 times more Megahurtz later we are still limited to 100 aircraft plus some AA in air combat at one time. I think its the newer software dev tools create huge Fluff...Back in early 1980s, Bill Gates once said that the only reason faster cpu would be useful for would be to run more bloated and inefficient software (Windows for example).

dgaggi
02-09-2005, 06:54 AM
"The planeset is just soooo narrow!"
"yeah, the narrow planeset confuses me too"
Maybe that's exactly why BOB was chosen. Less planes to focus on so it could be put out faster. Then you'll have the obligatory 6 months of working the bugs out and who knows how many patches. I think that BOB is going to be PF round 2. Incompete and lacking. They want this game out in the spring. You do the math.

Cess-SGTRoc
02-09-2005, 09:56 AM
Oleg did say that there where going to be many new fronts with the new BoB Sim. I would not count out anything yet

Spitf_ACE
02-09-2005, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Think about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif AI planes do nothing but move from A to B unless they are within the Player's "zone" which is visual range I guess.

Player could never fly to help friendly bombers being attacked by enemy fighters because the enemy would never attack any bombers until you got close. To win the WAR, you just sit on the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That would be the worst disaster a flight sim could be.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

I don't know the complexities of it all, but I do remeber something from a couple of months ago, where it was said that the AI would be reworked.

The AI uses a lot of system resources, so they were going to use system where AI on the other side of the map was simplified, and didn't bog down your computers performance.

It sounded good to me, and made a lot of sense. I just don't know how it works. If it does then my original post makes a bit more sense. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

SKULLS_Exec01
02-09-2005, 10:06 AM
Well as long as we are speculating:
Since BOB will be built on the new engine and he said "more fronts" I think after the BOB is done and they build up the other main Aircraft from other countries. I think we will get a "Pacific Fighters 2" that will be 100 times better then what we have now... more planes, more maps, working elevators on carriers, tons of ships, AI that you can tell from real pilots - it will be glorious!!!!!

But thats me just trying to be an optimist for a change...

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 10:16 AM
Right Spit. Rowan's BoB and MiG~Alley had "simplified" AI for AI vs AI combat far across the map, away from the Player's cockpit. AI Bubble I think its called. Oleg may be doing something similar for his BoB.

I personally don't like the idea, because the "simplified" AI may give inconsistent results that would be a disaster for a campaign battle. For example if "real" AI finds F8F Bearcat has general advantage over Ki~43 inside the AI Bubble--and this is the behavior the Player sees outside the cockpit--but the "simple" AI finds the Ki~43 whipping Bearcat butt everywhere else outside the AI Bubble, a campaign won't work. This would be a disaster.

A better idea would be to find out what made the old AI from 1995 Flaker jetsim so much faster, yet equally challenging. Alot of it may be bullet and cannon shell fire. That may be considered as having AI in a sense, and may be easier to simplify than air to air combat AI. Or it may be bloated code from whatever programming language is used under the bloated Windows operating system. It took a ~very~ long time for Windows to be accepted as a platform for gaming over MSDOS.

SeminoleX
02-09-2005, 10:19 AM
The bird in the hand or the two in the bush?

Desicions, decisions always decisions.

Spitf_ACE
02-09-2005, 10:30 AM
LEXX,

I'm sure that with the excellent support that 1C provides, possible problems like unrealistic results in AI-AI fights will be ironed out in patches if they start becoming the norm.

http://www.tvland.com/shows/cheers/images/actpic5.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
02-09-2005, 11:10 AM
I really like threads opened with foundated reasoning. Col_Tibbetts, Moscow is not a part of Europe, JFYI. Maybe at least you're able to see what the first sentence means in this regard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fliegeroffizier
02-09-2005, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freycinet:
Strange. So many people frequenting this forum even though they seem to be terribly disappointed by PF and having a lousy time playing it.

PF is a kick-*** sim with more US and japanese planes featured than in any combat sim before. It has received heaps of developer support. Before development is closed it will receive all the planes promised + a lot that weren't.

Yeah, you guys have been terribly shafted. Oh dear, what suffering you have gone through. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well said, Freycinet... I concur.

ploughman
02-09-2005, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Moscow is not a part of Europe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is. Geographically European Russia extends to the Ural Mountains.

JG54_Arnie
02-09-2005, 12:01 PM
Time will tell, I think there will still be some good times ahead for PF and FB.

And since we cannot see whats going on behind the scene its not really usefull to try and see through it. Dissapointed with PF? Possible, but the combo is still a blast. So if you're dissapointed with PF, buy FB and Aces as well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Col_Tibbetts
02-09-2005, 12:32 PM
Thank you, Ploughman. That needed to be said. The idea of Europe extends to the Urals. East of that is Asia. People just love to be confrontational on message boards. Gotta love human nature.

As far as the rest of this thread goes, you guys are 100% correct that FB+AEP+PF is an old engine and is nearing its sunset.

However, those who are new to the concept and bought PF as a standalone have every right to be dissapointed and maybe even mad. 99% of the people on this board look at the sim as an addon. I know people who see it as a brand new sim though. Think of them as well.

Actually, releasing PF as a stand alone was the biggest blunder of all. It really is an add-on. I am sure Oleg always thought of it as such. Ubi is probably the real culprit here. But hey, the got our money right. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I hope the BoB engine grows into other theatres. I have had quite enough of Hurris and Emils. Not that they aren't cool and all. It's just that the concept has been done over and over again.

Time will tell...

Jettexas
02-09-2005, 01:20 PM
Tibb,

Relax man, Dont plan the funeral til the body dies.....

un-official and unconfirmed e-mails do not constitute a crisis. I'll believe information that comes with a "by" line.

Euro-centric ? I wont get into that,tends to get nationalistic and ugly in hurry around here-
just remember that there is large contingent that for whatever reason looks upon PF as an unpleasant diversion from thier regularly scheduled program and as such do thier best to wish it away. It was necessary to purchase to get the bombers but beyond that they had no interest in ever playing it.Fine with me-they paid for a few planes and maps they wont ever use.
The rest of us bought a game,that is at present a tad thin here and there, but that will, in fact be patched and brought to full bloom eventually.

Different strokes for different folks.


It will come down to money, the one great truth...
Look at this series, and its history stateside:
IL2 Original did ok,
FB did better,
PF is selling well (by sim standards), with each iteration the game become less euro-centric
and the revenue stream increases.
Give them a reason to spend dollars,(planes plots and scenarios that have some meaning to the target market's collective mind) and you will earn dollars. Simple really.

BOB is long way off and as an initial offering for a new gaming engine, taking place in theatre crowded with several exisiting products, and featuring a limited planeset,is unlikey to generate massive sales from a market already incredibly spoiled by this series.

If Im the guy that has to pitch BOB to a publisher/distributor. im thinking thats a tough gig..

BOB, if it gets made- will likely follow a similar evolution to IL2 but ,being based in western europe will do better from the get go.Nevertheless the bills gotta get paid until then.
The development has to be funded...with.revenue..from where..? thats right...sales of exisiting product.

Me, I have faith in the almighty dollar, a revenue stream is powerful motivator, and since all future developments require a merged install..im not too worried

...the dollar , scratch, green ,lettuce,samoleans,greenbacks..and 295,432,015 people looking for ways to spend them.....will always win..


S!
96thRFWO/Jettexas

Chuck_Older
02-09-2005, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Col_Tibbetts:

I guess I understand it all. Oleg is a European. This game is a European game. The Pacific war was mostly a Japanese/American conflict so I understand why Oleg isn't as interested in it as he is the Eurpoean theatre.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't put this in your post and also convince me you're objective on the matter. You're making an assumption on what Oleg does based on your opinion.

Col_Tibbetts
02-09-2005, 02:30 PM
Chuck,

I just call it a "hunch". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chuck_Older
02-09-2005, 02:47 PM
No, I have a hunch on my back. But what you have to consider is- the game engine that PF uses is over three years old. It's obsolete, and the engine is stretched past it's limits on PF

There's a ton of threads about this lately, it's the new "run and tell the king the sky is falling", which is an old tradition around here.

The sim engine is too old. It is time to move on. FB and PF aren't going to evaporate overnight. We all knew, and so did you, that eventually, this game would become unsupported. It's time for the new sim. I love FB, but it's very restrictive, and has always been. I overlook those things because FB is the best.

Jettexas
02-09-2005, 03:06 PM
Yo Chuckles,
Maybe im not getting it,
Ok so ....?
The engine is soooooooo ancient that PF shouldnt have been made in the first place...and the people who bought it and feel slighted in some way -got what they deserved for getting here late even though through no fault of thier own they werent aware of the product til it was marketed to them .....only 3months ago....huh?......ummmmmmmm yeah...ok

Or-

ITs so old and tired that we should just shut up , forget PF happened and suck ice for a year or two til the 3rd quarter of Someday, when and if BOB sees the light of day....?(wish it away?)

Just curious.

Thanks

WUAF_LtC_Prop
02-09-2005, 03:07 PM
i love this sim period, theres nothing else out there that surpasses it, if oleg could transfer all the il2fb/aep/pf planeset into the bob engine, itll be even sweeter

Raider010
02-09-2005, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 9th_Spitin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedToo:
Time moves on. IL2/FB/PF is _old_ now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And unfinished. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pfft. Name ONE sim that ever was finished. EAW? F4? Flanker? X-Wing? Duh.

Chuck_Older
02-09-2005, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jettexas:
Yo Chuckles,
Maybe im not getting it,
Ok so ....?
The engine is soooooooo ancient that PF shouldnt have been made in the first place...and the people who bought it and feel slighted in some way -got what they deserved for getting here late even though through no fault of thier own they werent aware of the product til it was marketed to them .....only 3months ago....huh?......ummmmmmmm yeah...ok

Or-

ITs so old and tired that we should just shut up , forget PF happened and suck ice for a year or two til the 3rd quarter of Someday, when and if BOB sees the light of day....?(wish it away?)

Just curious.

Thanks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks??? You don't want a discussion, you want a p!ssing contest

Firstly, the Chuckles bit...won't get me going. My name's Chris. Charles Older is an 18 kill ace from WWII, 10 with the AVG and 8 with the USAAF. Chris ryhmes well with lots of things, though, let your imagination soar...

Secondly, take your flippin words out of my mouth, pal.

I didn't say any of that, and you know it right well.

This is the most pathetic attempt at baiting me yet. Any fool can go and read what I really posted. Excuse me, any fool except one can go read it- you obviously didn't.

Happy now? Now you have an actual reason to get p!ssy with me. Just another service I offer.

Col_Tibbetts
02-09-2005, 03:37 PM
Jettexas,

You'll find that on this playground, Chuck is the most fun to play with.

Although watch out, he likes to play rough.

S! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Chuck_Older
02-09-2005, 03:42 PM
Well, you have to admit that I never once have attacked someone in that manner, nor have I ever posted a skewed version of someone's posts as what they really added to the discussion

I also like to think that somehow, in the midst of it all, I have some content here and there.

You're a good example of what I'm about, Colonel

We've had our spats, but you don't hold it against me, and I don't hold it against you.

But that post by Jettexas was personal from word one, and not a post that had any content at all- just an argument. Pure drivel

I play rough when i get shoved first, I very rarely if ever have initiated, and when I have, the person has no illusions about why

|CoB|_Spectre
02-09-2005, 04:16 PM
Man, it's been a long, long time since I've gotten to do this, but


IBTL

Ah...that felt good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Freycinet
02-09-2005, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Equilizer:
For all the eye candy, there are still glaring omissions in the fm's calculations that leave a lot to be desired. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny how ignorant people can be. PF and the Il-2 series is an amazing excercise in the art of squeezing every bit of computing power out of your PC. Or you are playing it on a Cray?

PF simultaneously calculates DM, FM, AI and graphics on a hitherto unseen level, and you talk of glaring omissions?

That's just a sign of you not having a clue as to what is going on in this program. There are lots of compromises to deliver all that we see in the sim, and those compromises are incredibly well-programmed!

Jettexas
02-09-2005, 04:53 PM
Yo Chuck Older/Chris,
Personal Attack?, no not even close....I dont do that, search the user youll see,

And Thanks for the heads up Tibb but I been around here a few years under one guise or another, I know Chuck well, and have found many of his posts insightful and knowledgeable over the years..
but it takes more than a huge post count to intimidate me.

Im just curious as to your position on the issue. As to my inferences based on your post and your own words (correct or not)Im just trying to draw a logical summation based on your words.Not the "reductio ad absurdum" argument you seem to think im constructing.

The reason for my curiousity being that I have read numerous posts of yours that tend to sound a bit defeatist with regard to the current state of the sim and its expansions. And Im curious where your head is at.

Your statement "The game engine that PF uses is over 3 years old.It's obsolete,and the engine is strectched past its limits with PF"

Is what led me to infer that perhaps you are of the opinion that the expansion shouldnt have been built at all.

And your statement (I will paraphrase)
"The sim engine is too old...time to move on...
its time for the new sim etc"
Begs the question...OK what then? DO nothing-sit tight til BOB, well this is a long way off yet- Veterans of the sim know of Olegs uparalleled reputation for product support and are confident in its eventual fullness of being, but you must consider that there are those that ,feel rightly or wrongly that they are in some way slighted and find the waiting difficult-hence my second comment.

Neither of your statements do much in a positive way to assuage the fears of the original poster that he was in some way getting the short end of the stick with regard to his theatre of preference.(my intent in my original post) Or indeed offer much in the way of positive reinforcement to players of ANY version of this game.

How would this make you feel if you had bought the game a month ago and read such comments? How will this help sell product and guarantee the next sim comes to fruition?

I do agree with you in 2 aspects
1. Fb is the best
2. FB+PF arent going to evaporate overnight.(as I enumerated in my 1st post I dont think market forces will allow that to occur)

But the role of forum regulars should perhaps expend to offering encouragement to the discouraged, hope in the future of the sim they already bought, not the one that might be coming, and a positive spin to a difficult situation.
Not simply rising to defend those who need no defense (for thier body work stands for itself and anyone who doesnt see thatt is truly an idiot)

The guys got a legitimate beef with regard to his game purchase and chosen theatre,
the "bias" accusation that originally stoked you into posting was perhaps a bit over the top but nevertheless....did it deserve full on jumping? "the hunch is on my back" etc etc.....


Tranquilo buey,
Peace

S!

96thRFWO/Jettexas

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 05:28 PM
The problem is Tibbets failed to post Oleg's email in this thread despite the thread title, or to give a link to the email so readers may verify Tibbet's claim for themselves.

Granted, not everybody wants to talk about what the email says.

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 05:52 PM
JetTexas:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But the role of forum regulars should perhaps expend to offering encouragement to the discouraged, hope in the future of the sim they already bought... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You mean the <span class="ev_code_yellow">Oleg emil = Good News for FB+PF</span> thread??

link to Oleg's Email ~~&gt; http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=5011066372

Good idea, thanks!

heywooood
02-09-2005, 06:37 PM
man - you look away from these boards for a minute and this is what you might miss....

there will always be optimists and pessimists...

optimists can 'see' the good in everything...
pessimists like to 'pess' on everything.

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 06:40 PM
some see the glass half full of water
others see the glass half empty of water
still other see nothing but clouds in their glass http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Mr. Lucas, a glass of water for Mr. Heywooood.

heywooood
02-09-2005, 06:54 PM
yer killin' me, Lexx - be sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

...and speaking of clouds...might'nt the new improved clouds be coming soon?...