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TheElf30
01-11-2006, 07:53 PM
I am looking for some Soviet order of battle information. I am all tapped out. There is NOTHING on the English-speaking internet that can help so I am looking for any help.

Specifically I need and order of battle for the VVSTOF (Soviet Pacific Fleet Air Arm) for Dec 7, 1941.

What units were stationed in the Far East, at what strength, and what type of aircraft were they equipped with? By Far East I mean Manchuria, the Trans-Baikal front, and the East coast of Russia. I really am interested in any information on any Mine/Torpedo Air Regiments that might have been operating the IL-T/DB-3T Torpedo bomber.

Finally, if you have the sources available, what Soviet Air Force Armies were there as well?

A tall order, but I figure this would be the place to come....

Thanks in advance!

Elf

TheElf30
01-11-2006, 07:53 PM
I am looking for some Soviet order of battle information. I am all tapped out. There is NOTHING on the English-speaking internet that can help so I am looking for any help.

Specifically I need and order of battle for the VVSTOF (Soviet Pacific Fleet Air Arm) for Dec 7, 1941.

What units were stationed in the Far East, at what strength, and what type of aircraft were they equipped with? By Far East I mean Manchuria, the Trans-Baikal front, and the East coast of Russia. I really am interested in any information on any Mine/Torpedo Air Regiments that might have been operating the IL-T/DB-3T Torpedo bomber.

Finally, if you have the sources available, what Soviet Air Force Armies were there as well?

A tall order, but I figure this would be the place to come....

Thanks in advance!

Elf

Tooz_69GIAP
01-11-2006, 11:46 PM
There were no IL-2Ts or DB-3Ts in the Pacific in 1941. In fact, I don't believe there were any throughout the entire war. And there is a lot of doubt as to whether IL-2Ts existed at all.

All Russian torpedo bombers (as far as I am aware) operated only in the Baltic Sea.

As for other air units, I would doubt there were much more than Chaikas and Ishaks, with DB-3 and SB-2 bombers in the east for most of the war. Russia didn't declare war with Japan until July 1945, or thereabouts.

Modern frontline fighters were, however, moved to eastern Russia after the fall of Germany, along with, I think, around 3 million men (?) for the attack on Japanese held territory.

I could be mistaken of course, but that would be my guess.

anarchy52
01-12-2006, 04:53 AM
Mostly outdated equipment, last I-16 squadron to convert to modern types (to La-5 IIRC) was in Far East. In Summer 1945!

Waldo.Pepper
01-12-2006, 07:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And there is a lot of doubt as to whether IL-2Ts existed at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is interesting to me. I'm not doubting you, but where did you get that the t is in doubt? The Il-2T is mentioned in the Squadron Signal book on the Il-2 btw.

Kuna15
01-12-2006, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And there is a lot of doubt as to whether IL-2Ts existed at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is interesting to me. I'm not doubting you, but where did you get that the t is in doubt? The Il-2T is mentioned in the Squadron Signal book on the Il-2 btw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to the Yefim Gordon existance of IL-2T is quite dubious (author of many books about VVS ww2 airplanes). Also book "Naval Aviation in Great Patriotic War" do not mentiones any torpedo equipped IL-2.
Now that aircraft is mentioned by some accounts that it was used by 12 ShAP and 23 OShAP (Black Sea Fleet). But some historians that are dealing with this matter are extremely sceptical about this as they were unable to find any proof of any IL-2 variant that have used torpedoes. IL-2 in naval aviation used skip bombing with quite success, tho.
Also IL-2T in game has rocket launcher rails but no option for rockets... etc.

Not only that IL-2's that we have in game have all outboard ShVAK cannons which isn't the case with ww2 Sturmoviks (they have been produced with inboard ShVAK's as well).

In game there is also IL-2I airplane with main purpose of bomber interceptor. It didn't worked out well so it wasn't used much (if at all).
Government ordered IL-2I's production in may 1943 and they failed in state tests in july/august of the same year and it was concluded that there is no point in further manufacture of this type, so aircraft was not ordered for production.

LEXX_Luthor
01-12-2006, 04:47 PM
No matter, we need -2T for Pacific carrier ops. Kinda short range though.

tigertalon
01-12-2006, 05:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:

Not only that IL-2's that we have in game have all outboard ShVAK cannons which isn't the case with ww2 Sturmoviks (they have been produced with inboard ShVAK's as well).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this sim: Only IL2 1st series (and maybe 2nd, not sure ATM) are the ones with ShVAKS, other versions (except T and type3M, naturaly) have VYa-23 cannons.

Kuna15
01-12-2006, 06:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:

Not only that IL-2's that we have in game have all outboard ShVAK cannons which isn't the case with ww2 Sturmoviks (they have been produced with inboard ShVAK's as well).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this sim: Only IL2 1st series (and maybe 2nd, not sure ATM) are the ones with ShVAKS, other versions (except T and type3M, naturaly) have VYa-23 cannons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh c'mon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8321048793

TheElf30
01-14-2006, 02:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
There were no IL-2Ts or DB-3Ts in the Pacific in 1941. In fact, I don't believe there were any throughout the entire war. And there is a lot of doubt as to whether IL-2Ts existed at all.

All Russian torpedo bombers (as far as I am aware) operated only in the Baltic Sea.

As for other air units, I would doubt there were much more than Chaikas and Ishaks, with DB-3 and SB-2 bombers in the east for most of the war. Russia didn't declare war with Japan until July 1945, or thereabouts.

Modern frontline fighters were, however, moved to eastern Russia after the fall of Germany, along with, I think, around 3 million men (?) for the attack on Japanese held territory.

I could be mistaken of course, but that would be my guess. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have second hand information from a trusted friend that there WERE Torpedo bombers stationed in the Far East.

Let me clarify. I know there were no IL-2Ts in the far east, or anywhere else. What I am looking for is info on the Mine/Torpedo Air Regiments that were attached to the VVSTOF. They would have operated the DB-3T or the it's redesignation IL-4T. An order of battle I have seen for the VVSTOF in AUG 45' looks like this

1 bomber Division
1 Mine Torpedo Division
1 Shturmovik Division
1 Fighter Divison
8 "Smaller Elements"

This is great and all, but I am looking for something much more specific and around the Dec 41' timeframe. Liek unit names and compostions..

Kuna15,
Does you source on Naval Aviation in the Great Patriotic war list the Order of Battle for the VVSTOF in the 41' or 42'? How much info does it have on Naval Aviation in the Far East?

Draughluin1
01-18-2006, 04:47 AM
Google or try http://www.samolet.co.uk/rregs.html
for a piece of the picture. Goodluck.

Kuna15
01-18-2006, 05:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheElf30:
Kuna15,
Does you source on Naval Aviation in the Great Patriotic war list the Order of Battle for the VVSTOF in the 41' or 42'? How much info does it have on Naval Aviation in the Far East? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no information about some specific unit or order of battle. He just stated what I wrote above + he wrote that some are very sceptical about this aircraft existence (by saying "some" he thinks of aviation historians that are dealing with this subject).

Seeing that I personally am interested to see some wartime pictures of any IL-2 equipped with torpedo, as I am (not so surprisingly anymore) unable to find any on the internet. Apart from drawings & aviation art which means little to nothing in this case.

jds1978
01-20-2006, 08:18 PM
TheElf: Mind if i ask what you need this info for?....this is a fascinating discussion

TheElf30
01-26-2006, 12:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jds1978:
TheElf: Mind if i ask what you need this info for?....this is a fascinating discussion </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. I am trying to build a reliable Order of battle for the Soviets on Dec 7 1941 for a mod to the strategy game War in the Pacific. I play Pacific Fighters and frequent these forums so I thought there might be some untapped resources.

So far, though interesting, the suggestions have not turned up anything specific to my search.

Still looking...

FPSOLKOR
01-27-2006, 04:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheElf30:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jds1978:
TheElf: Mind if i ask what you need this info for?....this is a fascinating discussion </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. I am trying to build a reliable Order of battle for the Soviets on Dec 7 1941 for a mod to the strategy game War in the Pacific. I play Pacific Fighters and frequent these forums so I thought there might be some untapped resources.

So far, though interesting, the suggestions have not turned up anything specific to my search.

Still looking... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Minakovs memos at http://militera.lib.ru not sure if available in english, but it is still worth a look

Tooz_69GIAP
01-27-2006, 07:56 PM
I have a website linked in my favourites on my home PC. It's in Russian, but it gives details about just about every VVS unit from 1940-45. You can use translation pages to get a rough translation, but this a great website that crossreferences regiments and divisions and so on, giving details of the commanding officers, and sometimes their places of deployment, etc.

If you know at least one unit that was based in the Pacific, you should be able to use that to crss-reference to the division, then the korps, and then the army, and all other units under the same organisation.

I get home tomorrow, so I'll link it then.

LameDuck.
01-28-2006, 09:25 AM
Also interested.
especially 74 ShAP, Moscow 1941.
(Wish this was in GD)

mandrill7
01-29-2006, 07:13 AM
Tooz, does your source also give the type of aircraft flown by each unit from time to time?? If so, it sounds very, very helpful indeed! I'd love a list of plane types, postings and units to use to build campaigns.

I was hoping the Black Cross, Red Star series of books would give me this type of info; but so far, it's hit and miss and given only in the anecdotes and not in a comprehensive chart or list form.

Tooz_69GIAP
01-29-2006, 04:21 PM
Okay, here is the website, but as I said, it's in Russian cyrillic. The page I have linked to is the page for the 10.IAP/69.GIAP as that is the regiment which my squad models itself on.

These pages do list the aircraft types in some cases, and also shows commanding officers, and unit changes, such as when a unit is promoted a guards regiment, or division, or whatever. Also shows transfers of units to other parts of the VVS, etc.

From there you can search, I think, for other units, or just jump from link to link through the air army structures, etc.

http://www.allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/p/iap10.dat

The translation site I use is:

http://www.online-translator.com/login.asp

It can translate a webpage, or a phrase, or convert cyrillic to latin, and other stuff. The only thing is that the translation isn't exactly perfect, so you have read it fairly carefully to fully understand what's being said. And the translation for aircraft models is done oddly, i.e. an "I-153" would be in the translation "E-153" instead. Also, in the translation, "shelf" means "regiment" I think.

Lameduck, here is the translated page for the 74th ShAP:

http://www.online-translator.com/url/tran_url.asp?lang=...uct%2Fp%2Fshap74.dat (http://www.online-translator.com/url/tran_url.asp?lang=en&direction=re&template=General&cp1=CP1251&cp2=NO&autotranslate=on&transliterate=on&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.allaces.ru%2Fcgi-bin%2Fs2.cgi%2Fsssr%2Fstruct%2Fp%2Fshap74.dat)

And the original cyrillic page:

http://www.allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/p/shap74.dat

LameDuck.
01-29-2006, 08:25 PM
Wow! Thanks Tooz! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Sharing:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/George_Mellinger/soviet_order_of_battle.htm

Tooz_69GIAP
01-30-2006, 02:25 AM
Here are a couple of links that will probably help you:

Page with links to units of the Fleet Air Forces:

http://www.online-translator.com/url/tran_url.asp?lang=...%2Fstruct%2Fh_fl.dat (http://www.online-translator.com/url/tran_url.asp?lang=en&direction=re&template=General&cp1=CP1251&cp2=NO&autotranslate=on&transliterate=on&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.allaces.ru%2Fcgi-bin%2Fs2.cgi%2Fsssr%2Fstruct%2Fh_fl.dat)

The air forces of districts:

http://www.online-translator.com/url/tran_url.asp?lang=...r%2Fstruct%2Fh_o.dat (http://www.online-translator.com/url/tran_url.asp?lang=en&direction=re&template=General&cp1=CP1251&cp2=NO&autotranslate=on&transliterate=on&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.allaces.ru%2Fcgi-bin%2Fs2.cgi%2Fsssr%2Fstruct%2Fh_o.dat)

You can navigate through the various units down to the Regiments and Squadrons, and on those pages you should find details of where they were stationed, and which aircraft they used.