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neural_dream
12-14-2005, 11:06 AM
Suppose a Dora going carefree towards his base. Coincidentally that's exactly what an enemy La7 is doing and they meet. That close that they can see each other's eyes. Both at cruising speed, opposite directions.

What do you do if you're the FW, and what if you're the La7.

a) Both at 1000m.
b) Both at 3500m.

edit: and what about same direction, instead of opposite? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
That's not a realistic scenario or any I've been into. I just find it interesting.

Xiolablu3
12-14-2005, 11:14 AM
In the Fw190D or the Fw190A?

I am going to assume the FW190D as in a 190A I would run towards my base in the hope that teamates can give some help.

FW190D - Extend away climbing until I get high enough to start leaving him behind then gradually pull back on the stick when he is falling behind, keep going straight up until you are directly above him. Get right to the top of the stall and you will start to fall and drop, hopefully he is doing the same and he will drop too, presenting his tail to you, and you can catch him as you can dive quicker without breaking up and have a shot.

In the La7 I would simply turn and keep turning and keep the Dora low, he cant stay with you in a sustained turn.


Do I win 5? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SnapdLikeAMutha
12-14-2005, 11:23 AM
a) shoot him down

b) shoot him down

neural_dream
12-14-2005, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Do I win 5? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Not yet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Bremspropeller
12-14-2005, 12:13 PM
Headon and watch his wings seperate from the fuselage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif - simultaneously http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

neural_dream
12-14-2005, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Headon and watch his wings seperate from the fuselage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif - simultaneously http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I bet the enemy's thinking of the same thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

But really, what would you do. You were both "sleeping" and suddenly see an enemy flying parallelly at eye contact distance. What do you do those first moments? Especially when you're down low and going the same direction.

Xiolablu3
12-14-2005, 12:18 PM
Head ons are too random for me, I try to avoid them whereever possible,

Noone wants to tell their tactics as they are scared you will use them back against them.

neural_dream
12-14-2005, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Noone wants to tell their tactics as they are scared you will use them back against them.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Do they get asleep that often?

Xiolablu3
12-14-2005, 12:23 PM
I dont think you should have a problem in the La7 vs Fw190D unless he has a big height advantage and keeps B&Zing you.

The problem is when you are in the 190D as it takes more skill to beat a La7. A good tip to remember is that the La's break up at much lower speeds than the Dora, you can always dive to get away.

Dont be afraid to drag him to teammates, ask for help on comms/in chat and give your postion. Teamwork is your best ally http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Come and play on UKded1 and when the Berlin map is on you can practise this very thing with us http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (Doras are not the only thing to worry about, the odd Me262 makes the long flight from the far base http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

In fact come and play now , thats where I am going http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dieg777
12-14-2005, 12:33 PM
I agree with Xiolablu3

Im no expert but from what I have picked up online and reading FW tactics see here

http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_fwqa.htm

Youd better hope your speed was high 400kmph + and pray.

head on - blow through close to him and extend then go high and wait until you have a height advantage to Bnz him


If you are behind in Dora then go for him but dont turn with him as youll bleed E too much- never turn more than 3/4 a circle

If he is chasing you then shallow dive to pick up speed then use step climb to extend to your base or pals.

If in anton - hope your pals are around to help

I just wish I could follow the good advice I get

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif and not get caught up in the action so much. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

JtD
12-14-2005, 12:35 PM
In the La-7 turn onto the enemies tail and see if he can shake me.

In the D-9 run away and see if I can shake him.

I'd do this at both altitudes, but the likelyhood of the La staying on the Fockes 6 is bigger at low altitude.

neural_dream
12-14-2005, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I dont think you should have a problem in the La7 vs Fw190D unless he has a big height advantage and keeps B&Zing you.

My question is not that much about the well-known tactics that one can use in each plane, but about those first moments that you're looking at the other one and have to do something. Do you dive (and what if you're low), turn right against him for a quick deflection shot, but this way lose some energy. Wait and see what he does and decide based on his action?
The only thing I'm sure about is I wouldn't do the latter. I'd go offensively from the first millisecond as if I were in a Zero. I don't know what I would or should do though.

In fact come and play now , thats where I am going http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Too early for me. I play around midnight CET, but thanks of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.


Originally posted by dieg777
Youd better hope your speed was high 400kmph + and pray.

head on - blow through close to him and extend then go high and wait until you have a height advantage to Bnz him

If you are behind in Dora then go for him but dont turn with him as youll bleed E too much- never turn more than 3/4 a circle

If he is chasing you then shallow dive to pick up speed then use step climb to extend to your base or pals.

Sure, but my assumptions were: Same altitude, one very close to the other, flying parallel. Cruising speed for both, like 350km/h. As for the headons, unless you have an advantage pilot-wise (better skidding or something), that's not a high-percentage option; both planes do fine there. The headon seems to be what Stress is for doctors http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif: The answer for all questions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

dieg777
12-14-2005, 12:59 PM
I still believe that you have to take away his turning room so thats why Id blow through close to him- if you allow seperation he will turn onto your six- so baisicaly Id turn to face him and open throttle wide and try to blow through underneath him, then turn gentlly until Im heading for home, but as I said I aint an expert so perhaps theres a better solution.

Loco-S
12-14-2005, 02:16 PM
parallel, same direction, flying the dora, chop the throttle and turn towards the russky, fire at will at closing angle...hes toast with a few shots.

Xiolablu3
12-14-2005, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by dieg777:
I still believe that you have to take away his turning room so thats why Id blow through close to him- if you allow seperation he will turn onto your six- so baisicaly Id turn to face him and open throttle wide and try to blow through underneath him, then turn gentlly until Im heading for home, but as I said I aint an expert so perhaps theres a better solution.


I agree, extend away, his turn will slow him down quite a bit and you can extend and keep your speed and start to climb. You instantly have more energy than him.

In the La7 I would turn immediatly and see if the 190D has turned. If he has then I start rubbing my hands http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

If he is extending away then I realise he is a veteran and it will be a tough fight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In fact this is a very good way of determining if you are fighting a novice or veteran at the first pass.


EDIT: I am sorry I thought you meant both meet head on, and I think Dieg thought you meant that too.

If you are parralell then slam the throttle down to 0% and see if you can get behind him. He will probably do the same tho, so split S.

FoolTrottel
12-14-2005, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
(...)going carefree towards his base. (...)

I'd give him a big wave, and carry on home ... hoping he'd do the same... Probably if I'd ever get that far after battle, on my way home I'd be out of ammo, low on fuel, and/or shot up...

Have Fun!

Kuna15
12-14-2005, 06:52 PM
If I am in LA-7 I would try to catch FW-190D in climb (as he would certainly try to run away thru climb giving the oportunity).
If that fails FW-190D wins; simple as that as above 4k LA-7 has no bussiness duelling the FW-190D.
If on the other hand FW-190D hits the deck he loses for sure in spite of initial advantage thru better dive capabilities. LA-7 has better deck speed and better climb which he will use to catch FW.

If I am in FW-190D I would force fighting vertically as this is the only chance; diving and hard pull ups at the edge of black-out (Lavochkin can not follow that). And of course try to maintain decent level of energy at all times.
And of course luring Lavochkin above 4k as ultimate goal.

For sure a fair fight of good opponents.

mynameisroland
12-14-2005, 08:05 PM
Id shoot the bugger down if I was in the Dora 9, Id turn away, intially (aerilon turn) then turn back in to the La7 as soon as he has moved for a shot after that I would either hit him head on , after having created a better angle than him due to superior rate of roll, or failing that I would extend and climb very gradually. If at 3500M I would have the La7 easily as the Dora 9 outperforms the La7 at this altiutde comprehensively. At lower altitudes If I was in the D9 45 I reckon I could out pace the La7 and then after some decent seperation get in to a high speed turn and try to get the La7 guy to black out or to lock his controls.

Its like Last week Xiola, If you are high enough or stay fast the La7 has a really tough time.

Tooz_69GIAP
12-14-2005, 08:23 PM
I'd give him a big smile, and flip him the bird, then challenge him to a race!

Xiolablu3
12-14-2005, 08:32 PM
Its like Last week Xiola, If you are high enough or stay fast the La7 has a really tough time.

Yes we really hammered those La7's in our Doras, I think I got 2 and then elevator got hit, or something like that, I think you got 3?

The Dora with a good team is just fantastic. I remember keeping above them at all times, the La7's didnt seem to have a chance. (Human pilots online)

Plus the Dora has so much ammo you can stay in the fight and afford to spray it around a bit making high deflection shots that you couldnt in the La7 because of the lower ammo count.

Is there any difference in speed between the 'vanilla' La7 and the La7 3x20mm? (is it called the La7B20?)

LuftWulf190
12-14-2005, 08:39 PM
well as far as speed I downloaded this interesting little program that compares IL2 aircraft. It seems like the three cannon La7 is faster then the standard. but then agian the program also give the Dora's engine less horse power then it really had so I am not sure if it is entirly correct.

neural_dream
12-14-2005, 09:16 PM
at sea level the La7_3xB20 611 vs 606 the La7 (approximately). Higher it's practically the same.

The Doras are at about 605km/h.

Jetbuff
12-14-2005, 09:27 PM
Parallel, huh?

Situation 1: noob La7 driver, Good Dora pilot - La7 pulls tight into the turn to bring his nose on the bandit. (in plane) Dora pilot recognizes threat and executes a displacement barrel roll into the bandit, forcing him to completed at least 270? of turn to get into position instead of just 180. Once behind the La7's 3-9 line (terrible angle-off though) the Dora translates his positional E into a high speed shallow climb, hoping to drag the fight up above 5000m. At that altitude, his margins in speed and high speed climb are better + he has a pretty big escape window. Reversal can be accomplished a number of ways once the terms are favourable up there. There are variations of the opening move too but the objective is the same, try to open up maximum separation for an extension to more favourable ground. (altitude/home-plate/friendlies) The 1000m scenario is obviously much more in favour of the La7 and extension may not be possible in the first place.

Situation 2: noob Dora pilot = dead Dora pilot. Basically, if the La7 pilot does anything other than voluntarily fly out in front of the Dora's guns, the Dora pilot better be on good terms with his preferred deity.

Situation 3: a pair of aces in both planes - you never know, it will come down to who makes the first mistake which could be as small as a less than optimal G-load during one of the maneuvers.

neural_dream
12-14-2005, 09:37 PM
That's what would reasonably happen.
But what would YOU do, and particulary at this first millisec that you notice him and he notices you.

Would you wait a sec to see what he does and whether he's a noob or an ace? Would you immediately chop the throttle and prepare for scissors? Would you risk to dive knowing that you're in range at least for a few more moments.
What would you do in these 4 cases?

1. La7, Low
2. La7, not very high
3. Dora, Low
4. Dora, not very high

Jetbuff
12-14-2005, 10:43 PM
At the first instant? Well if I was in the Dora, I'd probably wet my pants! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Then I'd kick myself for getting into this predicament in the first place!

Seriously, I would immediately start the OODA loop: Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. Since I've seen him, next I would orient myself with a slight roll to better assess his E state and SA, decide whether to continue with a displacement roll or aggressive turn, or what have you and do it. Then start another OODA loop, etc...

JtD
12-14-2005, 11:31 PM
Xiola:
Yes we really hammered those La7's in our Doras, I think I got 2 and then elevator got hit, or something like that, I think you got 3?


If that's referring to the time Raven & I were also with you - we hold several advantages. 1st of ll there were four of us. Not always close together, but most of the times working together. 2nd) We were starting & getting back to altitudes around 3000meters minimum, where La's do not perform very well. 3rd we were a group of seasoned veterans, I don't think there were as many on the red team. And certainly not all of them did show up in that region.

We never had to deal with an equal number of planes at equal height. They often showed up alone or in groups of two, mostly at altitudes below 2k where the La is at home. Surprisingly, they all started attacking from this inferior position offering rather easy shots.

But all that did not make us immune to them, eventually you were killed even though two of your teammates did their best to help you. Also, we lost the map because the fighter cover was effective enough to allow the bombers destroy a large part of the targets. Think we got like 15 planes at the expense of one in that battle, but still we lost it.

Was a lot of fun, though. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

robban75
12-15-2005, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Suppose a Dora going carefree towards his base. Coincidentally that's exactly what an enemy La7 is doing and they meet. That close that they can see each other's eyes. Both at cruising speed, opposite directions.

What do you do if you're the FW, and what if you're the La7.

a) Both at 1000m.
b) Both at 3500m.

edit: and what about same direction, instead of opposite? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
That's not a realistic scenario or any I've been into. I just find it interesting.

Real life or in-game?

In a D-9 at 1000m in RL, I'd firewall it, and head for home, same if we were going in the same direction.

At 3500m, I'd zoom climb to even higher alts and use my superior high alt performance to kill the La-7.



In the game, I'd be in a lot of trouble at 1000m, as I probably wont be able to escape the La-7 by running away, because I will most like overheat before he does. Plus, the La is much faster at 1000m because of the never dying 190 speed bug.

At 3500m I'd still be in trouble because in the game the La-7 will outclimb the D-9 up to 8000m. Between ground and 8000m, there's nothing the D-9 can do that the La-7 cannot do better. Anyways, we'll most likely end up in a tight scissor fight. With luck the La-7 pilot doesn't know how to fly his machine, which could probably give me the upper hand so that I can win the fight.

DaimonSyrius
12-15-2005, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
Between ground and 8000m, there's nothing the D-9 can do that the La-7 cannot do better.

Oh yes there is, at least one, an important one too: diving. D9 can dive much better, and if you're considering altitudes up to 8000m, better diving is a quite important maoneuver.

Cheers,
S.

robban75
12-15-2005, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
Oh yes there is, at least one, an important one too: diving. D9 can dive much better, and if you're considering altitudes up to 8000m, better diving is a quite important maoneuver.

Cheers,
S.

Hmm, well. In order for the D-9 to stay superior in a dive, speeds cannot go below 720km/h, or the La-7 will have an acceleration advantage.

DaimonSyrius
12-15-2005, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
Hmm, well. In order for the D-9 to stay superior in a dive, speeds cannot go below 720km/h, or the La-7 will have an acceleration advantage.

Hi again robban,

Not trying to start an argument here, but as I see it, the D9 can stay superior in a dive, even taking into account the acceleration issue, by using its manoeuverability. D9 can still roll and turn at high speed (to some extent, of course, but it can), while the La7 will rip its wings off if it tries rolling or using the elevator for anything but the shallowest pull-off; and if the speed keeps increasing, the La will break apart no matter what, well before the D9 does.

Cheers,
S.

*Edit* P.S.: just wanted to add that the difference in diving performance is not very important at the altitudes the La7 usually fly in the game (say, up to 3000m) because there is hardly enough room to reach very high speeds before hitting the ground. However, when you said 'up to 8000m', the ability to reach 800 km/h, keep that speed and manoeuvering at that speed, really does make a difference.

robban75
12-15-2005, 04:35 AM
Hello Syirus. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Yeah, the D-9 is a little more agile at high speeds, particulary in rate of roll. Both planes are limited to pilot black outs in turns. But turning is a losing game for the D-9 even at high speeds, for it will bleed E faster, and in the end it will become a sitting duck. In a prologned dive the D-9 will be able to escape, as the La-7 will come apart sooner than the D-9, something like 780km/h IAS vs 910km/h IAS. But it is important for the D-9 not to go below 4000m in the dive because of the speed bug. The La-7 is much faster than the D-9 below that altitude in the game. All in all, I feel the La-7 is a much more effective fighter.

Xiolablu3
12-15-2005, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Xiola:
Yes we really hammered those La7's in our Doras, I think I got 2 and then elevator got hit, or something like that, I think you got 3?


If that's referring to the time Raven & I were also with you - we hold several advantages. 1st of ll there were four of us. Not always close together, but most of the times working together. 2nd) We were starting & getting back to altitudes around 3000meters minimum, where La's do not perform very well. 3rd we were a group of seasoned veterans, I don't think there were as many on the red team. And certainly not all of them did show up in that region.

We never had to deal with an equal number of planes at equal height. They often showed up alone or in groups of two, mostly at altitudes below 2k where the La is at home. Surprisingly, they all started attacking from this inferior position offering rather easy shots.

But all that did not make us immune to them, eventually you were killed even though two of your teammates did their best to help you. Also, we lost the map because the fighter cover was effective enough to allow the bombers destroy a large part of the targets. Think we got like 15 planes at the expense of one in that battle, but still we lost it.

Was a lot of fun, though. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


1. You and Raven did that, I was mixing it up more, I remmeber calling on you to clear my tail many times as I mixed it up. as I could see you floating around above.

2. There about 3-4 La7's at all times around where Boemher and I was, I think you must have stayed higher.

3. I remember now, I was shot down because I stayed in the fight to help another blue even with engine spewing black smoke. (couldnt see properly)


It was a tough fight where I was, not just dropping down on one or 2 La7's, it was a real furball. At least at mine and Boemhers end.

tigertalon
12-15-2005, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Suppose a Dora going carefree towards his base. Coincidentally that's exactly what an enemy La7 is doing and they meet. That close that they can see each other's eyes. Both at cruising speed, opposite directions.

What do you do if you're the FW, and what if you're the La7.

a) Both at 1000m.
b) Both at 3500m.

edit: and what about same direction, instead of opposite? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
That's not a realistic scenario or any I've been into. I just find it interesting.

1. Keep in mind that Dora bleeds E WAAAAYYYY faster than La7.

Meeting at 1000: Dora should, whithout a slightest turing, accelerate and start to climb at approx. 500kph. In the meantime, La7 will not be able to turn around and catch dora. This way Dora can escape to a safe altitude of 5 or 6k, where it really becomes the cat-mouse play http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. If La7 does not follow, dora should be more than satisfied with a draw. IMO, high speed climb is the only chance Dora has, if met at 1000m.

Same goes for 3.5k, however here the play is easier, you have to drag him up just 2 moke ks and you are the king of the sky.

If dora pilot tries anything else below 4k, La7 starts holding the cards. However, if things go wrong for Fw, he can still dive, and La7 driver must be smart enough not to follow, but to stay high.

Meeting each other going in the same direction... Hm, hard time for Dora IMO.

OldMan___
12-15-2005, 09:55 AM
Open My cockpit and use anything at hand even my own blood to paint a red star at my wings.

JtD
12-15-2005, 10:38 AM
Xiola, higher is usually where I am when in a D-9. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Got 8 kills that sortie, so you shouldn't think I did not see any action. At the time you were shot down there were indeed at least 3 La's at your six - but it's not that they arrived as an organized flight all at the same time.

danjama
12-15-2005, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
(...)going carefree towards his base. (...)

I'd give him a big wave, and carry on home ... hoping he'd do the same... Probably if I'd ever get that far after battle, on my way home I'd be out of ammo, low on fuel, and/or shot up...

Have Fun! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

blackpulpit1970
12-15-2005, 10:46 AM
Give him the finger and call him a noob for flying a la-7.

Xiolablu3
12-15-2005, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
Xiola, higher is usually where I am when in a D-9. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Got 8 kills that sortie, so you shouldn't think I did not see any action. At the time you were shot down there were indeed at least 3 La's at your six - but it's not that they arrived as an organized flight all at the same time.


I hardly ever see you or Xeno on the server anymore http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Why not?

JtD
12-15-2005, 02:00 PM
Guess we just happen to miss each other.

jimDG
12-15-2005, 03:41 PM
at 1000m beginnig alt:
in fw190d - climb away at 350-400 km/h indicated speed. the la7 will have to make a turn and by the time its facing in the same direction the fw190 will be 1km away. above 3000m the fw190d will start outdistancing the la7, and hopefully the la7 wouldnt have scored any hits until that point. if the la7 can be dragged above 4000m - then the fw190 has the turning advantage.
in la7 - make a zoom-up turn/imelman and shallow dive (i\m assuming the fw190d is doing the above). so while the fw190d is climbing, the la7 is reducing fast the horizontal separation. at zero horizontal separation and, say 1000-1500m vertical - climb straight up for the fw190 and empty the guns when the speed drops to 250km/h - it will be a 500m shot, but on the other hand its a big target at 90 deg deflection.


at 3500m the dora can just dive straight for the deck and get away (it has the highest energy retention of all a/c). or very shallow climb and fight above 4000m.
the la7 has no options at 3500m except stay and fight. so, the la7 should be the first to dive, but only until, say 2000-2500m, then try a turning fight. then dive again to 1000-1500m and again attempt horizontal turning fight/evasion. so essentially, the la7 should try to gradually drag the fw190 down, in steps, so that the dora loses the same amount of energy trying to point its guns at a tightly turning la7, until they are both at the deck where the la7 has all the advantages (acceleration, turning, and climb).

Pinker15
12-15-2005, 04:15 PM
In 1 versus 1 conditions Dora have no chances against La7 no matter on what altitiude. D9 even can 1000m alt advantage and if he miss at first pass he can only run home and pray for help. Yes Dora can dive quickier but even than La7 can just can stay a bit higher to not pass over 720 kmph. At the end both of then reach deck and if Dora will turn back to La7 he is dead again. So in 1 vs 1 condition Dora can run only.

JtD
12-16-2005, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by jimDG:
at 1000m beginnig alt:
in fw190d - climb away at 350-400 km/h indicated speed. the la7 will have to make a turn and by the time its facing in the same direction the fw190 will be 1km away. above 3000m the fw190d will start outdistancing the la7, and hopefully the la7 wouldnt have scored any hits until that point. if the la7 can be dragged above 4000m - then the fw190 has the turning advantage.
in la7 - make a zoom-up turn/imelman and shallow dive (i\m assuming the fw190d is doing the above). so while the fw190d is climbing, the la7 is reducing fast the horizontal separation. at zero horizontal separation and, say 1000-1500m vertical - climb straight up for the fw190 and empty the guns when the speed drops to 250km/h - it will be a 500m shot, but on the other hand its a big target at 90 deg deflection.

Both of you start at cruising speed. There is no need for the La to wait with it's turn until the D-9 is past. Assuming you are going 100 m/s the La can have turned around when you are only 200 meters away. Not the most healthy idea to climb then.
And instead of performing an zoom up the La could also do a split-S and start the chase with a considerable speed advantage - which will bring it closer than 500 meters.

D-9 is a good climber, but it's no K-4.

Genie-
12-16-2005, 02:14 AM
In RL ->

<il2 forum mode on>

nobody of us knows - we didn't fly the real thing

<il2 forum mode off>

so.. in game..

a) flying dora -> you die
b) flying La7 -> you kill

against La7 nothing works. its faster, its WAY more agile, it climbs better, it dives better, its a russian plane

oh btw.. it would be interesting to see some tracks of ppl arguing around here about your question. two ppl meet .. and then every one flies one of the planes

So.. got track?

Xiolablu3
12-16-2005, 09:46 AM
We are not saying what will definitely happen, just what we would do in the situation, the other pilot of course still may win.

It is definitely possible to beat La7s in an equal amount of Doras tho, I have been in a team that has done it a few times.

Of course I have been in situations where the La7 wiins too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

luftluuver
12-16-2005, 10:09 AM
ND what is the speed of the 2 a/c?

Keep flying straight.

How far apart would they be after passing each other? If one kept flying straight, the other would have no chance of catching him after doing a 180.

example (sorry for the Imp but is easier)

- each are merging at 240mph or 4mi/min
- by the time the a/c did the 180 the other a/c would be at least 6 mi away
- the a/c doing the 180 would lose speed in the turn and have to accelerate
- the running a/c would be accelerating so the speed difference would be increasing

I leave it there.

neural_dream
12-16-2005, 10:17 AM
Suppose 70-80% throttle for both and same direction, parallel, distance 30m.

Xiolablu3
12-16-2005, 01:30 PM
Luftluvver has got the wrong idea I think, like we did before,

He is thinking of the planes meeting headon ? If I am right?

luftluuver
12-16-2005, 02:42 PM
N_D did say:

"Both at cruising speed, opposite directions."

So if one was flying east, then the other has to be flying west.

Might not be a perfect head-on though.

neural_dream
12-16-2005, 06:38 PM
I asked about both. After the first one was pretty much covered I concentrated on the second (same direction) since I hadn't seen very convincing replies http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

As I said, that's not a particularly realistic scenario, but I find it very interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

What I'd like to do:


by FoolTrottel:
I'd give him a big wave, and carry on home ... hoping he'd do the same


What I'd probably do:


by Loco-S:
parallel, same direction, flying the dora, chop the throttle and turn towards the russky, fire at will at closing angle

although I think the La can decelerate faster and get the first shot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif. So maybe I don't know yet about the Dora.

and what would happen. Probably:


by Xiolablu3:
If you are parralell then slam the throttle down to 0% and see if you can get behind him. He will probably do the same tho, so split S

BaronUnderpants
12-18-2005, 05:16 PM
With the first senario flying both La and Dora i would wait 1 sec to see what the other one is doing. If he turns on me in a Dora i know i allredy won. If not i fly strait and climb to gain hight advantge. If i fly Dora and La pilot turns on me, i would do a slight turn during shallow dive forcing La to turn more than 180 degrees and loose speed, while im gaining speed and distance. Hopefully i can gain enough distance and maby even hight advantage, for him to give up before he relize he can cach me if he really tries hard enough.

As someone said: if the opponent dont turn the chances is he knows what he is doing and if he does turn regardless of ac flown, hes not so experinced. That being said i myselfe sometimes suffer from complete and total meltdown and do things that emazes me afterwards http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif like engaging in a DF in a Fw A-9 against a Yak3 for example http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

As for flying parallel to eachother same derection, flying Dora: bail before it gets to messy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Usally i fly La7/Yak3 and Fw A6-9 fifty fifty and find it a hell of a lot safer to get eaqual or more kills in Fw than the ruskies...so much for La being a noob plane.

P.S. So far i never had a Dora outdiving me when i flew La7, start your dive from 8000 and u will loose me, from 3000 meters?..dont think so.

tigertalon
12-18-2005, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Suppose 70-80% throttle for both and same direction, parallel, distance 30m.

Dora is dead at the moment they both pres "Fly".

TX-Gunslinger
12-18-2005, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Suppose 70-80% throttle for both and same direction, parallel, distance 30m.


Sorry I missed this, now I'm at the tail end.

First off, I totally agree with Robban's historical remarks, diving acceleration, energy retention and the speed bug below 4K.

With that said, in with respect to 4.02, this is how I would handle the situation, assuming your conditions:

1. In my 45-D9 with MW-50 (I almost never fly the 44 given the choice), I'd firewall the throttle gradually changing course to keep eyes on the bandit and moving in the direction of the nearest blue base. I have 3-4 kmh speed advantage on the La-7 below 1K (not in 44 Dora). Even though the La-7 has me beat by a long shot in the amount of 'E' he'll be retaining after his reversal, he's lost a lot of ground if I don't turn.

2. The La will almost surely turn on my six, unless he's out of ammo (quite a regular occurance) or low on fuel. If he keeps going, I'll assume he's not combat capable and reverse to finish.

3. I'll dive to gain as much speed as possible while proceding to the nearest blue base, making my turn into the apex of the dive. The superior acceleration of the 45-D9 will allow me to keep seperation until I reach my objective, considering that I have'nt entered this situation (low altitude) with a hot engine. If I have a hot engine, oh well, I probably deserve whatever comes my way. If speed is life, then heat is death.

4. If the La gives up the chase, I'll climb, reverse and if he's not in the proximity of his base, chase him down. Trick here is, to ensure that he is the only threat within the area. If he's not, then let him go.

5. If he pursues, I'll gradually open until my engine heats up (of course his is hot now too) and back off after a two minutes to 99% throttle. Key point here is that many La drivers will attempt to get you to break by shooting a few shots at long range. DONT break when you see shots. Use a little negative stick to keep him guessing. Up and down and down and up.....

6. I'll take a track inbound to the friendly AA which maximizes their shots (not turning and climbing), shooting for the apex between two AA. I'll only look back after the AA have started to fire.

Thats' what I do. It works, if I have enough discipline to not bleed too much 'E' looking at the bandit AFTER I've observed his reversal.

Don't try this in a 44 Dora. Probably best to do what Jetbuff said. I never flew the 45 Dora until a little over a year ago. Most folks I knew at the time assumed that the performanace was the same and the extra hassle of MW-50 management did'nt seem to be worth the effort. Man, was I wrong. When I'm really serious about competing, that's my favorite plane. Better acceleration, better top end at low altitude and just a little better turning.

If it's a head-on with minimal separation, you almost have to go for the head-on shot and not let that monster get behind you. As many said, it really depends upon the skill you assess your adversary to have. Of course, if your adversary has skill, you probably won't find him in that position.

S~

Gunny

BTW nueral, best question of 2005 on these boards as far as I'm concerned. S~

alert_1
12-19-2005, 02:15 AM
Lot of talking, I have about 2000 tracks (yes I HAVE tracks) and everytime I see Fw190, it's running away as hell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

JtD
12-19-2005, 06:23 AM
Yes. And the mean thing about the FW 190: As soon as you don't see it it blasts you to hell.

neural_dream
12-19-2005, 06:55 AM
Lots of interesting answers. I think the Dora Vs La7 is covered. I'll start another one now.

waffen-79
12-19-2005, 07:00 AM
what would I do?

In a La-7:

Both scenarios, BE TOTAL CONFIDENT, no matter what, I get the kill.

In a FW:

use comms, ask for help or run in the direction two more blue's are

jimDG
12-20-2005, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
at 1000m beginnig alt:
in fw190d - climb away at 350-400 km/h indicated speed. the la7 will have to make a turn and by the time its facing in the same direction the fw190 will be 1km away. above 3000m the fw190d will start outdistancing the la7, and hopefully the la7 wouldnt have scored any hits until that point. if the la7 can be dragged above 4000m - then the fw190 has the turning advantage.
in la7 - make a zoom-up turn/imelman and shallow dive (i\m assuming the fw190d is doing the above). so while the fw190d is climbing, the la7 is reducing fast the horizontal separation. at zero horizontal separation and, say 1000-1500m vertical - climb straight up for the fw190 and empty the guns when the speed drops to 250km/h - it will be a 500m shot, but on the other hand its a big target at 90 deg deflection.

Both of you start at cruising speed. There is no need for the La to wait with it's turn until the D-9 is past. Assuming you are going 100 m/s the La can have turned around when you are only 200 meters away. Not the most healthy idea to climb then.
And instead of performing an zoom up the La could also do a split-S and start the chase with a considerable speed advantage - which will bring it closer than 500 meters.

D-9 is a good climber, but it's no K-4. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

depends on what your shooting habits are. I personally prefer high deflection shots that walk along the target, hard to get the right deflection - but targets are considerably bigger and take more hits (and the armor protects no more). starting a turn before the two are past makes the la7 a bigger target (rather than a small circle with two lines connected to it) - all the dora needs to do is pull on the stick and have the la7 move through the fire of 4 20mm guns. same holds if the la7 attempts a premature horisontal turn - the dora rolls faster- so can still point guns ahead of la.
split-s - dunno - I think a considerable ammount of energy will be lost in that - so - closer yes - but laggin? and its also a close to zero deflection shot from 300m - not my favourite..