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View Full Version : Get thee behind me, Pappy!



georgeo76
02-14-2006, 11:03 AM
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48808

Sturm_Williger
02-14-2006, 11:53 AM
Jeez, everytime I think that perhaps I've seen all the stupid stuff people could come up with ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Actually, even that didn't come out right. I'm speechless http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif What a bunch of ...

Tex-Hill-AVG
02-14-2006, 12:23 PM
Just shows you how our universities are brain washing our kids.

Stigler_9_JG52
02-14-2006, 12:46 PM
Talk about a total lack of perspective...

BSS_Goat
02-14-2006, 01:11 PM
I quote "Ashley Miller, another senator, argued many monuments at UW already commemorate rich white men." That is the most racist thing I have read in a long time.... unbelievable....not trying to start a race war BUT, would they have said that about the Tuskeegee Airmen?

Cobra427so
02-14-2006, 01:24 PM
It's amazing that parents actually pay for the privilege to send their kids to college to become bigger morons than they already are. If my kid ever did something that stupid, I'd kick his butt and pull out all his funding. Let him go into the military to pay for his college, then maybe he'd learn something useful.

Cobra427

jds1978
02-14-2006, 01:25 PM
this is what happens when you start believing your own rhetoric

Hawgdog
02-14-2006, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Tex-Hill-AVG:
Just shows you how our universities have brain washed our kids.

Fixed, and you're right.
I'm 48, I have a son who is 4.....I shudder when I think what will pass as history in 10 years...

Saunders1953
02-14-2006, 01:42 PM
I am incensed at this PC out-of-control bullsh*t. I always had the impression that Pappy was sort of a jerk and self-promoter, until I read the latest about him--can't remember the author but he also did a history of VMF-214--and had those impressions confirmed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif But guess what, I developed a whole new understanding of him and respect for him in the process. He stands tall in my book, and these college weenies ought to be sentenced to 20 months hard labor in Iraq or something. Jeebus, does this p*ss me off! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif And I'm generally a midddle-of-the-road much-more-liberal-than-conservative-type guy.

Here's to you, Paapy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Hoatee
02-14-2006, 02:05 PM
If it's any consolation, it ain't only in the USA (but I suppose you guys know about that already) - sensitive morons.

Nimits
02-14-2006, 05:03 PM
Boyington isn't my favorite guy, I'll admit (there were plenty of herioc WWII aviotors of less dubious personal character), but to argue that he shouldn't represent the university BECAUSE he served his country, well that just takes idiocy to new record heights.

vocatx
02-14-2006, 06:11 PM
Saunders, I agree. This is nothing but a bunch of liberal, pencil necked, politically correct morons. I agree he may not be one you would want your kids to model their lives after, but look at his accomplishments. He came from abject poverty, overcame many obsacles in his life, and survived some of the bloodiest fighting in the war, not to mention surviving the atrocious conditions he endured as a POW.

I think if I lived in Washington, had gone to school at this university, or contributed to it in some way, I would be starting a letter writing campaign.

Airmail109
02-14-2006, 06:27 PM
Can any German universities honour the Red Baron, or Galland?

Nimits
02-14-2006, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Can any German universities honour the Red Baron, or Galland?

Whether they can or cannot is not germane to the situation. Whatever their personal character and courage, Greg Boyington fought on the right side of WWII; Galland did not.

BSS_Goat
02-14-2006, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Can any German universities honour the Red Baron, or Galland?

Sure. Now Hitler and Mengele .....a little different.

Oz_Canuck
02-14-2006, 06:53 PM
One word.....******S!
Send 'em all to North Korea where they can put their whiny commie ideas to use (oh, yeah...after they forage for leaves and twigs to eat like the rest of those poor b*****ds....)
'Nuff said.

jarink
02-14-2006, 09:12 PM
The quotes in that article remind me of quotes by Paris Hilton. Puffy-headed snipping about a subject of which they haven't a clue and are not inclined to learn.

At least the parents are more aware of what kind of educations their kids are getting.

I met Pappy when I was about 10 at Oshkosh and he signed his book for me. It was quite the experience for me to find out not all heroes looked like Robert Conrad and mad their share of personal problems. I think because of his issues with alcohol and (lack of) employment and the way he finally faced and overcame them makes him even more the hero.

Airmail109
02-15-2006, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by Nimits:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Can any German universities honour the Red Baron, or Galland?

Whether they can or cannot is not germane to the situation. Whatever their personal character and courage, Greg Boyington fought on the right side of WWII; Galland did not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh yes but they also believed they were fighting on the RIGHT side, even though in Hindsight they were not.

Sturm_Williger
02-15-2006, 05:57 AM
Dubious personal character or not, anyone who strapped himself into a plane and went up into combat is a hero in my book http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

nicolas10
02-15-2006, 07:00 AM
Look at all those freedom loving democracy defenders who are ready to deport people to North Korea or Iraq just because they don't agree with their ideas.

I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

Nic

Gruffysquirt
02-15-2006, 07:27 AM
It's not hypocrisy...It's just a healthy desire to imbue some perspective into those...kids.

I'm a senior in college, and I'll be the first to tell you, I'm not surprised at all. Student senates here, there and everywhere, are full of self-impressed kiddos.

Campuses at large are full of self-impressed kids. It's a combination of several things. First, in a lot of cases, the adolescent ego-centrism that convinces people that they're the first person to ever learn something is still in full sway. Second, college is a Super Liberal breeding ground because leaning left is popular, and it becomes sort of a competition to see who can be the most liberal (which is referred to as "open-minded"). Third, going along with the first reason, most college students are extremely sheltered kids who got through compulsory education without really learning much of anything. There's no historical perspective, and everything that happened before 1983, '84, '85, '86 (the years in which the current mass of college kids was born) is ancient history that's populated by ignorant people, incapable of being as educated as they are.

Am I a little bitter? Naw...

To summarize, just believe that what happened at UW is a perfect reflection of college students (with, of course, exceptions). They're self-impressed, indulgent, pampered, and totally out of touch with reality...and because of that they are in a perfect state to believe all this cockamammy stuff that, every once in a while, leaks out to the rest of the world.

Go to a college campus and ask a random sample of students when WWII started, how, who fought on which side, and when it ended, and I bet you can count on one hand the number of kids that get it right. No lie.

nicolas10
02-15-2006, 07:32 AM
That was not my point http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nic

Gruffysquirt
02-15-2006, 07:39 AM
I figured as much...and I wasn't responding at length to you, particularly, as much as I was complaining in general about college.

Old_Canuck
02-15-2006, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Gruffysquirt:
I figured as much...and I wasn't responding at length to you, particularly, as much as I was complaining in general about college.

Gruffysquirt, I'm a janitor at a university and while I haven't encountered a lot of self-impressed students, I appreciated your insights. IMHO, the young lady's whole argument was illuminated and at the same time negated by her racist statement: ""many monuments at UW already commemorate rich white men."

Targ
02-15-2006, 08:57 PM
Senate member Karl Smith amended the resolution to eliminate a clause that said Boyington "was credited with destroying 26 enemy aircraft, tying the record for most aircraft destroyed by a pilot in American Uniform," for which he was awarded the Navy Cross.

Geeze, they cant even get there research proper.
Richard Bong, hello?

leitmotiv
02-15-2006, 09:08 PM
U of W, I am informed by a prof friend, is to the left of Trotsky.

georgeo76
02-15-2006, 09:25 PM
Ok, I'm going to go ahead and pipe in now.

You foagies are a trip.

Education and youth breed liberalism. As your mind expands you start to believe that the future can be better (liberalism), later when you're bitter and think the past was better (conservatism). Ironic, because the good 'ole days were the liberal ones hehe.

**I know many universties have inexcusable polices on speech and expression. I'm not defending that.** But the way everyone speaks as though college is some kind of Democrat factory makes me laugh.

My college professors were mostly conservative, but this is South Carolina, so the fact they didn't start class with a rebel yell and anthem to Ronald Regan means it was practically communist.

Maybe you'll look back to your school days (if your grizzled old-timers can manage), you might be surprised to remember that you didn't always listen to what the teachers told you.

The kids are alright. So stop worrying so much, Besides I think Matlock is on.

blakduk
02-15-2006, 09:34 PM
Universities are the best places to keep or brightest brats- it's where they can cherish stupid ideas and explore idiotic views of the universe while protecting the rest of society from them. Most people who get a tertiary education look fondly back at their youth and wonder how the hell they ever came to espouse that belief or support that cause.
Are our students any stupider now than previously?
No, they are as naive and self-confidant as they ever were.
I resort to quoting Churchill again when he said 'Show me a young man who isn't a socialist and i'll show you someone who hasn't a heart. However, show me a mature man who is a socialist and i'll show you someone who hasn't a brain'

People should go to university for the same reasons i did- to learn how to trick women into thinking they're cute, and develop ever more devious ways to get drunk/stoned while managing to keep my grades up to retain my scholarship.

When my girls get to university, if any young man comes near them behaving as i did, they better watch out! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

leitmotiv
02-15-2006, 09:43 PM
How did you know I was a fogey? My university experience was completely in the state of California in the '70's and '80's, and, with the exception of the History Dept at UC Santa Barbara, the profs I had were uniformly what would be termed far left. My Master's thesis in literature ran into snarls because it had to reflect the predominantly Chomsky-ite climate of opinion of my profs---and the irony was that I was far left, myself, at the time, but not far enough! I ran into one of my profs right after 9/11 and asked him what he thought about it, and , I kid you not, he replied: "Just another example of the white race exterminating the colored peoples of the world."

Treetop64
02-15-2006, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Targ:
Senate member Karl Smith amended the resolution to eliminate a clause that said Boyington "was credited with destroying 26 enemy aircraft, tying the record for most aircraft destroyed by a pilot in American Uniform," for which he was awarded the Navy Cross.

Geeze, they cant even get there research proper.
Richard Bong, hello?

Yeah. I was wondering if anyone caught that. Just goes to show what Gruffy was saying about a lot of these kids earlier; talking about a subject they know absolutely nothing about.

georgeo76
02-15-2006, 10:08 PM
Because it's only fogeys who are forgetful enough to think their childhood was different, or pessimistic enough to believe that the 'children of today' can't hack it.

It's a common disease among the grizzled to be fooled into thinking that somehow things were more moral, simpler, and all-around better when they were young. When the only thing simpler was them, at the time.

Big surprise that college professors are liberal. Next thing you'll tell me is that Marine drill instructors are disproportionately conservative. Hell in a handbasket.


Originally posted by leitmotiv:
How did you know I was a fogey? My university experience was completely in the state of California in the '70's and '80's, and, with the exception of the History Dept at UC Santa Barbara, the profs I had were uniformly what would be termed far left. My Master's thesis in literature ran into snarls because it had to reflect the predominantly Chomsky-ite climate of opinion of my profs---and the irony was that I was far left, myself, at the time, but not far enough! I ran into one of my profs right after 9/11 and asked him what he thought about it, and , I kid you not, he replied: "Just another example of the white race exterminating the colored peoples of the world."

leitmotiv
02-15-2006, 10:59 PM
You seem to be suffering under some kind of preconception about geezers. The older you get, the more familiar everything seems because you have seen it over and over again. As for the college kids, they are as foolish as I was, which is a pity.

Old_Canuck
02-16-2006, 12:09 AM
.... As for the college kids, they are as foolish as I was, which is a pity.

... I might have been even foolisher. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

ronison
02-16-2006, 12:37 AM
What amazes me about things like this is the lack of knowledge that self titled "learned" people actually have. How many of the students on that senate acutely were history majors. Or even the person that quoted that Boyenton tied with 26 kills, by the way the term "Kills" at the time represented shot down planes not people killed. McCamble had 34 kills by the end of the war and was not the leading ace for the US during the war. Boyenton was tied at 26 kills before he was shot down, tied with who I can€t remember at the moment. Lack of knowledge is what kills a lot of good ideas. Anyone of those students on the senate should have taken the time to look up the actual history of the subject before passing judgment.

The fact that their facts are totally off is really appalling from people that should know. I agree with the statement that Boyington may not have been the best represenitive for their collage but the reasons they gave were totally off. Better reasons would have been his drunkenness the fact that he went against the grain, was insubordinate etc.. would have been a much better reason than what they came up with.

Do I think they should honor him, (Bad word here) YES! I meet Boyington when I was 14 in 1984 at an Airshow in Hilsbro Oregon. He was not very nice and actually did not like kids for what I have read but that is not the point of this. He did things for this country at a time that were needed. His exploits in the Pacific during the war was what this country needed and in doing so helped the war effort. If these "Kids" "Collage students" "Idiots" etc don€t see that then it is sad that they could have been the ones that let the Hitlers, Tojo's, and Mosilines succeed in their evil plans for the world.

Wonder what they would be saying if they really knew the truth about history.

I work at a Job Corps here in the US. I ask many of my students on some of the bigger days, June 6th 1944, Dec 7th 1941 etc, what happened on those days. Many come back with "The start of the Vietnam war", "The start of WWI", "The day the Shuttle blew up" etc... its a sad fact that our kids in today€s world are just not taught what happened in history or even why it is important to know what happened.

(History the most misunderstood subject in school and most looked down upon subject)

IL2-chuter
02-16-2006, 06:00 AM
I'm sure everyone here knows exactly what they're talking about having gotten their information straight from the internet and all . . . this is simply the other side.



It has recently come to our attention that the actions of the ASUW Student Senate last night have been greatly misrepresented to the student body and the general public. As such I wanted to clarify what actually occurred.

The Student Senate exists to create official student opinion by bringing together student representatives from all across campus. The resolution concerning Colonel Boyington (available online at
http://senate.asuw.org/legislation/12/R/R-12-18.html) cited the Colonel's exemplary service record, including the fact that he was awarded the Medal of Honor for service in World War II. The resolution called for the creation of a memorial in his honor. Passage of the resolution would not have necessarily resulted in the creation such a memorial, but would have recommended it to the University of Washington.

The debate within the Senate was fair, balanced, and respectful. Senators representing a diverse array of viewpoints spoke on the resolution, raising numerous points as to the merits and demerits of the resolution.

1.) The ASUW Student Senate declined to support the construction of a
memorial for an individual. This in no way indicates a lack of respect for the individual or the cause, merely that the Senate did not support the construction of a memorial. The Senate weighed factors such as financial viability, the logistics of implementation, which historical points are relevant, and the difficulty in assessing which veterans should be memorialized over others. Questions regarding these factors were not addressed in the legislation itself and thus became points of debate during the meeting.

2.) Senators speak on behalf of the opinions of their constituents.
This legislation has been posted publicly for nearly a month and senators have used that time to discuss the issues with their constituents. There is no way to distill a central argument of the Senate for or against any piece of legislation the Senate discusses. While the vote itself is a yes or no decision, the reasons senators choose to vote in a particular manner vary widely. Therefore, it is inappropriate to represent a decision by the Senate as resulting from any single statement or point-of-view.

3.) No senator speaking in opposition to the resolution suggested that
deaths in war are the equivalent of murder. One senator, in making a motion to remove references to the number of Japanese planes shot down, suggested the focus of the resolution should be on the man's service to his country.
The sponsor of the amendment suggested that death in war was sometimes a "necessary evil" and that the focus of the honor should not be on the necessary evil, but rather on the service. That motion passed overwhelmingly. A further amendment to remove the text of the inscription of the Medal of Honor from the legislation subsequently failed overwhelmingly.

4.) No senator stated that we should not pass the resolution on the
grounds that Colonel Boyington was a "white male." One senator stated that we have many monuments and memorials to white males, but did not suggest this was a reason to not support the resolution.

Throughout the debate in the Student Senate, the tone was very respectful.
If you have any additional questions, please contact:
ASUW President Lee Dunbar (asuwpres@u.washington.edu), Student Senate Chair Alex Kim (asuwssch@u.washington.edu), Student Senate Vice-Chair Erin Shields
(asuwssvc@u.washington.edu) or Director of Operations Karl Smith
(asuwbdop@u.washington.edu)

--
Alex Kim
Student Senate Chair
Associated Students of the University of Washington 206.543.1780 (office)
206.669.9562 (mobile)
http://senate.asuw.org/

leitmotiv
02-16-2006, 07:37 AM
In 1983 I saw a prof ask a lecture hall full of university seniors when WWI started. Silence. When it ended. Silence. When WWII started. Silence. Wnen it ended. Silence. Korea started. Silence. Ended. Silence. He expected some debate about when the U.S. participation in the Vietnam War began. Silence. Ended for the U.S.---one hand---1975. In 1980 I saw some UC Santa Barbara coeds discussing the film about Auschwitz, PLAYING FOR TIME. At this time UCSB was getting the top high school seniors applying to the University of California system. One girl wanted to know when Hitler lived. They were all puzzled. One speculated that he lived during the time of Napoleon. I said "Girls, internal combustion engine!" One bright spark chirped up "Well, Napoleon used cars!"

BSS_Goat
02-16-2006, 07:39 AM
IL2Chuter that sounds like damage controll.

Viper2005_
02-16-2006, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by blakduk:
People should go to university for the same reasons i did- to learn how to trick women into thinking they're cute, and develop ever more devious ways to get drunk/stoned while managing to keep my grades up to retain my scholarship.

When my girls get to university, if any young man comes near them behaving as i did, they better watch out! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

T'was ever thus...


How did you know I was a fogey? My university experience was completely in the state of California in the '70's and '80's, and, with the exception of the History Dept at UC Santa Barbara, the profs I had were uniformly what would be termed far left

That'd probably make them rather right wing by European standards... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

claypidgon
02-16-2006, 09:37 AM
Well then how do we know what the true story is???

joeap
02-16-2006, 10:00 AM
Thanks for the post and clarification IL2-chuter, good to know how easy it is to falsely attribute quotes to people on internet forums, and that you cleared it up.

BSS_Goat
02-16-2006, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Viking-S:
NO! NO! NO! IL2Chuter! You are depriving all the autodidact and extremely intellectual and well informed posters here of their righteous hatred of the young and educated, making it all look like it was just common prejudice! Take it all back and don€t ever do this again!

Viking

I'm glad you see it my way.

Old_Canuck
02-16-2006, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by claypidgon:
Well then how do we know what the true story is???

If you follow the link at georgeo76's post which started this thread, you'll find the alleged racist quote that was copied from the article and you can also find a full copy of the minutes which one poster here paraphrased for alleged "damage control."

Saunders1953
02-16-2006, 01:46 PM
"death in war was sometimes a "necessary evil""

You have to admit, this is a pretty funny statement.

jarink
02-16-2006, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Targ:
Senate member Karl Smith amended the resolution to eliminate a clause that said Boyington "was credited with destroying 26 enemy aircraft, tying the record for most aircraft destroyed by a pilot in American Uniform," for which he was awarded the Navy Cross.

Geeze, they cant even get there research proper.
Richard Bong, hello?

He was awarded the Navy Cross, because at that time he was the first pilot to tie Eddie Rickenbacker's record of 26 planes confirmed shot down in WWI. Pappy was not aware of the award until later (made posthumously, no less) because at the time, he was sitting in an inflatable raft with a shattered heel and half of his scalp hanging down in front of his face. He also didn't know until later that he had tied Rickenbacker's record; he thought he had shot down only 25 planes. Even before being shot down, he was in horrible health, suffering from lack of sleep and one or more jungle diseases. The last few missions before his shoot-down, he had to have the flight surgeon break open the crud stopping up his ears and blow sulfa into them so he could hear the radio.

He was also almost killed in a US air raid on a Japanese airfield (can't remember where) while being transported back to Japan. In his book he says you can see him and another POW hiding in a bomb crater on some of the strike footage taken by USN planes.


Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
4.) No senator stated that we should not pass the resolution on the
grounds that Colonel Boyington was a "white male." One senator stated that we have many monuments and memorials to white males, but did not suggest this was a reason to not support the resolution.

If it was not a valid reason to not support a memorial, then why did she bring it up? That's like lawyers at a trial making remarks they know will be stricken from the record after everyone hears them. Sorry, but the person who made that remark really needs to look up the definition of the words "prejudice" and "descrimination".

Targ
02-16-2006, 06:51 PM
4.) No senator stated that we should not pass the resolution on the
grounds that Colonel Boyington was a "white male." One senator stated that we have many monuments and memorials to white males, but did not suggest this was a reason to not support the resolution.

Lol, come on!
It was indeed said http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Damage control indeed.

HarlockGN
02-16-2006, 07:32 PM
First of all i don't think we should generalize, if i'm not wrong the resolution was rejected after a tie-breaking vote by the senate chairman(woman?)
This means that statistically only about half of the college kids in question are historically-ignorant/deniers/unrespectful airheads.

It should NOT be a question of left or right. Pappy Boyington helped defend his country and did it with a remarkable amount of courage and success, there's (or there shouldn't be) NOTHING political about it. He's a clear cut hero and heroes deserve to be commended/remembered/honored. Period.

Denial of such commendation/honor means denial of history, denial/ignorance in the historical field and is the most damaging tendency (Unfortunately this is a worrysome tendency in the university field, worldwide, even here in italy...) possible in an environment where people are supposed to LEARN. There's NOTHING you can learn more from than history.

Politically correctness (he killed people -> we shouldn't honor him) is one of the worst blindfolds of modern society, EXPECIALLY in the academic environment.

Said that...
Honestly Il-2 chuter, do you really think you should come here trying to tell us "no guys, it didn't go like that... they didn't say that... they're just..." trying to coat with honey what was said and done, when there are the minutes of the debate freely available on the net on the site of the senate itself?

http://senate.asuw.org/secretary/minutes/senate/12/02-07-2006.pdf

A couple quotes:

-----------------------------------------------
JILL EDWARDS questioned wheter it was appropriate to honor a person who killed other people

She said she didn't believe a member of the Marine Corps was an example of the sort of person UW wanted to produce

(My comment: I wonder what kind of person the UW should produce in this Lady's mind... but probably i don't really want to know)
---------------------------------------------

ASHLEY MILLER commented that many monuments at UW already commemorate rich wite man

(My comment: This definately sounds like a snide remark of an extremely racist nature, to be noted that our Damage Control man here changed the expression to a MUCH more aseptic "white males")
------------------------------------------

The rest is very much like a lot of obstructionism you see many times in most bureaucracy driven assemblies, to try and put the other side in a corner.

Anyway Il2chuter, most people here are not just simmers, but history scholars with one or more degrees and quite good education level. As such they're smart enough to make word-bending quite useless, so, please, give it up.

Targ
02-16-2006, 07:43 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
For those of you still claiming that those tards did not say that please read the minutes from the meeting.
Silly rabbits...

Rammjaeger
02-16-2006, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Can any German universities honour the Red Baron, or Galland?

Well, that's a pretty easy question to answer: no, they cannot. The reason is also very simple: political correctness. Some of the posters here are astonished by the amount of P.C. influencing this decision of the UW. Well, imagine the level of mandatory political correctness imposed on the Germans. No comment.

"War never decides who is right, it only decides who is left."

Stackhouse25th
02-16-2006, 08:26 PM
Very pathetic, what a bunch of liberals.

I hate how they say "cuz he killed people", well YES they wanted to KILL HIM!

Man people know so little about history it is SO SAD!

I read Boyingtons book when i was in 6th grade, and I loved IT!

Oldcrow1129
02-16-2006, 08:27 PM
Eh.....sure, the kids said silly, uneducated things. Such is the nature of being a kid. I recall that I knew everything back when I was in school as well.

Trying to sugar-coat the uneducated statements of kids is equally as silly, and basically impossible. By the time you craft a "stupid student statement" into some slippery
half-baked logic that confuses some, the kids will have already said something else equally as dumb.

The nature of all humans at this point in history is that we are all rather humorously irrational creatures. We are all still using a tiny fraction of our brain's actual capacities, and physical maturity also includes the brain, rendering students prone to putting their foot in their mouth without knowing it.

Kids going to school are supposed to be educating themselves, but now, just as it has always been, they don't really get much real world knowledge while attending a University. That which makes you real world savvy is taught in the real world.

The big difference in modern society is that everyone is connected to everything, so the rather absurd idea that one is really educating themselves significantly in the university system is being identified as false by more people.

Still, college was a hoot for me. I wouldn't trade a minute of those days when I was so full of myself that I thought I had figured it all out like no man before me.

No worries. Most of these kids will mature, travel, and learn that it is okay to make up their own mind. Some will stay left, some will go right, some like me, will stay in the middle believing that there are no absolutes, just unknown €œshades of grey€ regarding most issues. Until we advance as a species a bit more, this will remain our circumstance IMO. Hopefully, we€ll get to stick around on the planet long enough to really figure it all out.

Rammjaeger
02-17-2006, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by Gruffysquirt:
To summarize, just believe that what happened at UW is a perfect reflection of college students (with, of course, exceptions). They're self-impressed, indulgent, pampered, and totally out of touch with reality...

[...]

I like to fly offline because it lets me live a fantasy. Namely that I am a good pilot.


Talk about being 'self-impressed' and 'out of touch with reality'.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

What is wrong with being self-indulgent and arrogant anyway? It's a great feeling.

Rammjaeger
02-17-2006, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by blakduk:
I resort to quoting Churchill again when he said 'Show me a young man who isn't a socialist and i'll show you someone who hasn't a heart. However, show me a mature man who is a socialist and i'll show you someone who hasn't a brain'


Churchill never said that. Moreover, he was never a socialist.

OK, just 2 further points:

1. If more conservatives actually bothered to get a job as college professors, maybe those of you in the US wouldn't have the 'left wing bias' that many people endlessly complain about.

2. Seriously, what difference would that monument make if it was erected on THAT location? More students would get more interested in WW2 and come to share the same views that some of the forum members here have? Of course not.

Old_Canuck
02-17-2006, 09:21 AM
.... Seriously, what difference would that monument make if it was erected on THAT location? More students would get more interested in WW2 and come to share the same views that some of the forum members here have? Of course not.

I don't think Pappy would have considered it an honor to have a monument erected to himself in THAT location. If Pappy were alive, I doubt he would desire recognition from an institution that excluded a person of achievement because of the size of his wallet or the color of his skin.

Yellonet
02-17-2006, 09:55 AM
Well I wouldn't want someone famed for shooting down aircraft representing any school I'd attend.

VMF-214_Pappy
02-17-2006, 10:21 AM
This just shows the ignorance of some of our liberal college students.

"Ashley Miller, another senator, argued "many monuments at UW already commemorate rich white men."

Commenting on the decision, a blogger who says he met Boyington on numerous occasions at a museum and air show over the years noted the famous flyer "was no rich boy," having grown up in a struggling family in which he was forced to work hard to make it through school.

Target_54th
02-17-2006, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Oldcrow1129:
Eh.....sure, the kids said silly, uneducated things. Such is the nature of being a kid. I recall that I knew everything back when I was in school as well.

You said it OldCrow. LOL. I knew EVERYTHING when I was 19 too. The older I get, the more I find out how little I know.


Originally posted by Oldcrow1129:Still, college was a hoot for me. I wouldn't trade a minute of those days when I was so full of myself that I thought I had figured it all out like no man before me.

Ditto



Originally posted by Oldcrow1129:No worries. Most of these kids will mature, travel, and learn that it is okay to make up their own mind. Some will stay left, some will go right, some like me, will stay in the middle believing that there are no absolutes, just unknown €œshades of grey€ regarding most issues. Until we advance as a species a bit more, this will remain our circumstance IMO. Hopefully, we€ll get to stick around on the planet long enough to really figure it all out.

Yup! I feel pretty much the same way.

_54th_Target

HarlockGN
02-17-2006, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Yellonet:
Well I wouldn't want someone famed for shooting down aircraft representing any school I'd attend.

I really would like you to explain us why.

blakduk
02-17-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blakduk:
I resort to quoting Churchill again when he said 'Show me a young man who isn't a socialist and i'll show you someone who hasn't a heart. However, show me a mature man who is a socialist and i'll show you someone who hasn't a brain'


Churchill never said that. Moreover, he was never a socialist.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Did you actually read the quote or did you see the word 'socialist' and get into a blind panic?

You are technically correct- i have traced the quote to its origin in my library and it actually reads €œAny 20 year-old who isn't a liberal doesn't have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isn't a conservative doesn't have a brain.€ So yes, you caught me being lazy and paraphrasing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif
Churchill was a continual critic of socialism and fought bitterly against it.
The quote actually contends that a socialist is a young hothead while a conservative has wisdom. I dont necessarily agree with him on that, nor indeed with many other things he believed, but i admire his use of language and wit.

Rammjaeger
02-17-2006, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by blakduk:
You are technically correct- i have traced the quote to its origin in my library and it actually reads €œAny 20 year-old who isn't a liberal doesn't have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isn't a conservative doesn't have a brain.€ So yes, you caught me being lazy and paraphrasing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif


No, I'm suggesting you are misinformed. Churchill never said anything about "not having a heart at 20 if you're not socialist/liberal etc.". He himself was resolutely conservative in his early years as well, which alone should raise doubts about such quotes attributed to him.

ronison
02-17-2006, 10:54 PM
To people that do not read all the facts and post things these are the minutes from the proposal. Some of the disclaimed quotes that were posted from the disclaimer about what was said is clearly wrong, unless the person that took the minutes took liberties to add things into the official minutes.

Here they are for thoes that chose not to read them along with the article. The racist remark along with the "Killing of people" was in the minutes contrairy to what the disclaimer said. Also the mention of the historical inaccuracy of the leading ace of the war.

Sorry to bring this to the boards but it is the "Facts" as written by the universitys student government secretary.



Minutes
February 7, 2006
5:00PM €" HUB 310

R-12-18 A Resolution to Calling for a Tribute for Col. Gregory €œPappy€
Boyington, USMC

Andrew Everett, sponsor of the legislation, summarized the resolution.
He said he wasn€t interested in a large statue, but rather something on a
small scale.

Jill Edwards moved to table the resolution until next meeting. Seconded.
Objection.

Jill Edwards said other legislation needed to be considered as other
resolutions have been on the docket longer.

Mikhail Smirnoff said he didn€t see the issue as controversial and that
because Senate had voted it to the top of the agenda it should be
considered immediately.
The motion failed.

Travis McCoy asked how the construction of the memorial would be
funded.

Andrew Everett said he had drawn up funding proposals for the UWAA,
several UW departments, and other private sources of funding.

Jono Hanks asked why Andrew Everett was interested in honoring this
particular alumnus.

Andrew Everett said he had read about Colonel Boyington and thought
his achievements warranted recognition.

Tyler Dockins asked why the monument shouldn€t commemorate all the
alumni who fought in the war.

Andrew Everett noted that several statues around campus already serve
such a purpose and that Colonel Boyington had many of the qualities the
University of Washington hoped to produce in its students.

Jill Edwards questioned whether it was appropriate to honor a person
who killed other people.
She said she didn€t€ believe a member of the Marine Corps was an
example of the sort of person UW wanted to produce.

Ashley Miller commented that many monuments at UW already
commemorate rich white men.

Karl Smith amended the first €˜whereas€ clause to strike the section €œhe
was credited with destroying 26 enemy aircraft, tying the record for most
aircraft destroyed by a pilot in American Uniform for which he was€ and
leaving the reference to the Navy Cross. Seconded. Objection.
He said the resolution should commend Colonel Boyington€s service, not
his killing of others.

Andrew Everett said a destroyed aircraft was not necessarily indicative
that a pilot had died. He said the statistic on aircraft downed explained
Colonel Boyington€s achievements and why his performance was
noteworthy.

Deidre Lockman said she was in favor of the resolution and approved of
Karl Smith€s amendment.

Sam Al-Khoury moved to close debate on the amendment. Seconded.
Passed without objection.
The amendment passed.

Erin Shields asked what the process is for erecting a memorial on
campus.

Andrew Everett said it was a process he would push through personally.
He said it would go to the university administration, then to the Capital
Projects Committee for placement consideration, and back to the
administration for a final discussion on the monument.

Niki Iglesias moved to close debate. Seconded. Objection.
The motion failed.

Shawn Fisher moved to amend the second €˜that€ clause and strike the
deadline of 11 January 2008.
He said he was against the resolution, but that if it did pass, he wanted the
statue to be of a high quality and said the project shouldn€t be rushed.

Mikhail Smirnoff noted the resolution didn€t require the statue to be
finished, but merely have the process started by that time.

Melissa Aar said she was against the amendment because of the
significance of the date.

Shawn Fisher moved to close debate. Seconded. Passed without
objection.
Debate was closed. The amendment failed.

A Senator said he feared Senate was rubber stamping a project that it
didn€t know enough about. He noted that Senate didn€t have any
specification for the statue€s appearance or details on its placement.

Jon Lee said he didn€t want to see a campus inundated with memorials.
He said he feared this would open the invitation to multiple other
memorials.

Andrew Everett said he envisioned a monument similar to the Lincoln
Brigade outside of the HUB. He said he respected the history of the UW
institution and the people it has produced and that the UW owes it to
students to honors those from the past.

Deidre Lockman moved to strike the quote from President Roosevelt.
Seconded. Objection.
She said the resolution focused more heavily on the negative aspects of
war and should instead focus on more positive aspects such as the
awarding of the Medal of Honor.

Travis Grandy moved to amend the amendment to restore €œwhose
citation was signed by pres. Franklin D Roosevelt in March 1944€.
Seconded. Passed without objection.

Shawn Fisher said he thought the quote was unnecessary and reflected
badly on the resolution.

Alex Kerchner said the issue was clear cut and that it didn€t make any
sense to commend Colonel Boyington for his Medal of Honor, and yet
remove the reason it was awarded.

Mikhail Smirnoff said it was important to note what the Colonel actually
achieved. He said it didn€t make sense to not acknowledge why he was
awarded the Medal of Honor.

Jon Evans moved to close debate on the amendment. Seconded.
Objection.
The motion passed. Debate was closed on the amendment.
The amendment failed.

Mikhail Smirnoff said he supported the resolution. He said the resolution
does not support a final product, but that it only supports the concept of
the monument. He said he understood the sentiment of not wanting to
reward those who fought in the war, but that he thought those who fought
in WWII were heros and that it was a much different war than the
controversial war in Iraq.

Evan Roberts moved to close debate. Seconded. Objection.
The motion failed.
Division was called. The motion passed.
Debate was closed on the resolution.
Division was called on the resolution. The vote was tied 45-45-10

Alex Kim noted that in the case of a tie, the Senate Chair cast the tiebreaking
vote.

Alex Kim voted nay. The resolution failed.
Zachary Tobin called for a roll call vote.
Alex Kim called the motion out of order as the results of the vote had
already been announced.

TC_Stele
02-17-2006, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Gruffysquirt:
It's not hypocrisy...It's just a healthy desire to imbue some perspective into those...kids.

I'm a senior in college, and I'll be the first to tell you, I'm not surprised at all. Student senates here, there and everywhere, are full of self-impressed kiddos.

Campuses at large are full of self-impressed kids. It's a combination of several things. First, in a lot of cases, the adolescent ego-centrism that convinces people that they're the first person to ever learn something is still in full sway. Second, college is a Super Liberal breeding ground because leaning left is popular, and it becomes sort of a competition to see who can be the most liberal (which is referred to as "open-minded"). Third, going along with the first reason, most college students are extremely sheltered kids who got through compulsory education without really learning much of anything. There's no historical perspective, and everything that happened before 1983, '84, '85, '86 (the years in which the current mass of college kids was born) is ancient history that's populated by ignorant people, incapable of being as educated as they are.

Am I a little bitter? Naw...

To summarize, just believe that what happened at UW is a perfect reflection of college students (with, of course, exceptions). They're self-impressed, indulgent, pampered, and totally out of touch with reality...and because of that they are in a perfect state to believe all this cockamammy stuff that, every once in a while, leaks out to the rest of the world.

Go to a college campus and ask a random sample of students when WWII started, how, who fought on which side, and when it ended, and I bet you can count on one hand the number of kids that get it right. No lie.

I had to chime in here. I live in southern California, which is one of the biggest liberal states in the US, and the campuses are another world of their own entirely when it comes to liberalism. Ultra-left is where'd I'd categorize them. I almost did not graduate because I wasn't "open minded" enough.

Anyways, I don't think they speak for a lot of liberals out there and I'm hoping they wouldnt agree with what the students concluded with. This really isn't surprising and I would personally be shocked to even see a statue of a war veteran at a college.... its just the way liberal campuses are. There's more to life than just the little world of college campuses in which professors lead their students like disciples, so I think a statue would be more fitting else where.

blakduk
02-18-2006, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blakduk:
You are technically correct- i have traced the quote to its origin in my library and it actually reads €œAny 20 year-old who isn't a liberal doesn't have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isn't a conservative doesn't have a brain.€ So yes, you caught me being lazy and paraphrasing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif


No, I'm suggesting you are misinformed. Churchill never said anything about "not having a heart at 20 if you're not socialist/liberal etc.". He himself was resolutely conservative in his early years as well, which alone should raise doubts about such quotes attributed to him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you aware that Churchill stood as an MP in the British paliament as both a Liberal and as a conservative?
He was originally an MP for the Tory party but left it in 1904, joined the Liberals and won a seat for them in 1905. He rejoined the conservatives in 1917- he was later to be credited with stating 'Anyone can rat, but it takes a certain amount of ingenuity to re-rat'.
My sources may be incorrect, but i feel you have to be very confident to claim 'he never said' anything as i am sure you weren't present at every conversation he had.

I take your point however that Churchill was at heart a conservative and resisted significant changes in Britain. He was an ardent believer in the British Empire and a staunch defender of the monarchy. He also despised facism and Communism.
Like all human beings, the more closely we examine them the more complex and unpredictable they seem.

Rammjaeger
02-19-2006, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by blakduk:
Are you aware that Churchill stood as an MP in the British paliament as both a Liberal and as a conservative?
He was originally an MP for the Tory party but left it in 1904, joined the Liberals and won a seat for them in 1905. He rejoined the conservatives in 1917- he was later to be credited with stating 'Anyone can rat, but it takes a certain amount of ingenuity to re-rat'.


To my amazement, it may turn out that I was wrong...

blakduk
02-20-2006, 03:52 PM
To my amazement, it may turn out that I was wrong...

No worries, i know that feeling well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rammjaeger
02-21-2006, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by blakduk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To my amazement, it may turn out that I was wrong...

No worries, i know that feeling well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having said that, that quote is not from Churchill http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

blakduk
02-21-2006, 03:55 PM
[/QUOTE]Having said that, that quote is not from Churchill http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/QUOTE]

Here's another quote for you...
'I made a mistake once, I thought i was wrong' (Anon) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Rammjaeger
02-22-2006, 03:56 AM
"I used to be very pretentious, but since then I have become flawless." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

blakduk
02-24-2006, 03:48 AM
'The problem with being better than everyone else, is that others then think you're pretentious' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Akwar
02-24-2006, 04:57 AM
Seattle is a Bastion for the modern day leftist hippies and peace protesters.Its no surprise.What a disgusting time we live in.They are trying to bring back the disgraceful behavior of the 1960's.

No respect at all for our men in uniform.It really makes me sick.