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TedSmith
03-07-2006, 09:25 PM
<span class="ev_code_red">1. Multiple teams / Mission Planning</span>

While I realize the reason this was taken out in the first place was to "streamline" the game and make it more accessible for new players, all it really managed to do was alienate old players who loved that feature.

The thing is, it isn't necessary to remove that feature entirely just to allow new players to have a less complicated experience. All that needs to be done is at the briefing, give the player the choice. Ask them if they want to create their own mission plan, or use a preset plan. Let them select how many teams they want to use (1, 2, 3, 5, 10, whatever).

Don't alienate players who want the game complex and don't alienate players who want the game simple. Give the player the choice of how complex his gameplay experience is. Choices are ALWAYS a good thing.

<span class="ev_code_red">2. Smaller scale and more feasible situations</span>

Drop the "5 bazillion terrorists have taken over Manhattan! Send in a four man team to destroy them!!" from Lockdown. It REEKS of arcade, shooting gallery style gameplay and it's a slap in the face to what R6 was supposed to be.

If EVER there were a situation with 100+ terrorists, that's something the army would handle, not a small, four-man squad or even four, four-man squads. Rainbow is supposed to be about single building/complex takeovers by small groups of well armed and trained terrorists, such that a regular SWAT team could not handle it.

Drop the number of terrorists back to 10-20 max and devote all that extra processor time found in cutting out the 80 others to the AI of those few enemies. Have them communicate with one another via voice, radio, etc, so that if you don't take one down fast enough, they report your position to others and you'll find yourself flanked soon enough, or hostages getting shot.


<span class="ev_code_red">3. Bring back fluid motion</span>

Fluid leaning and peeking was a brilliant idea in Raven-Shield and I'd like to see it make a comeback. Just don't let people run around set in a skewed position. Let them shuffle when leaned, but not a full walk or run.


<span class="ev_code_red">4. Prone/Dive</span>

First, prone... as far as I'm concerned, it's a necessary position in any tac shooter. Diving is something I'd also like to see. The ability to either just straight drop to prone if standing still in a FAST motion, not slowly going to crouch, then slowly going prone. If I'm under fire unexpectedly, I'm hitting the dirt, or diving for cover if it's available.


<span class="ev_code_red">5. Cross-com / helmet cams</span>

I would love to see a helmet cam feature added in, where you can see a video stream of what a teammate sees either in single or multiplayer. It works well in SWAT 4 and I'm sure it will work well in GRAW. I think it'd be a great addition to R6. Would also give another hud option to bring back the minimap from Rogue Spear. Let it cycle through vid feeds of players or a wireframe map.


<span class="ev_code_red">6. Give us a REAL challenge mode</span>

Look at The Regiment as an example. Give us a game mode that has extremely high standards for speed (time) and accuracy and doesn't allow for mistakes (dead teammates, dead hostages...) Don't make it the default mode by any means, but give us the option for a real challenge that doesn't pat us on the back for taking fifty minutes to complete a mission.


<span class="ev_code_red">7. "Mission Failed"</span>

For the love of God, DROP the mission failed the second a hostage is killed. Nothing irritates me more than being forced back to the game menu when there's still two hostages sitting there that need rescuing. Tell me I've failed if you like, but let me continue playing the mission if I so choose.


<span class="ev_code_red">8. Dedicated Server Package</span>

I CANNOT stress the importance of this enough. Give us a downloadable dedicated server package that DOES NOT REQUIRE a purchase of the game to run a server and even more importantly does not require a graphics card. Server operators are doing YOU a favour by hosting servers so that people can play your game online. Support them and they will support your game and it's player base FOR you.


<span class="ev_code_red">9. Mapping tools / Modding tools / SDK</span>

While a full blown SDK may be an issue if you're using an engine that doesn't belong to you, for the love of God, give us the ability to create new content and maps for the game and do NOT restrict us to existing content like Lockdown.


<span class="ev_code_red">10. Rainbow vs Rainbow</span>

Give us the option to play Rainbow vs Rainbow again. I'm not saying take away the Rainbow vs Mercs if you really want to push that, but give us the option to choose the teams on a server side basis. Rainbow vs Rainbow, Rainbow vs Mercs, Mercs vs Mercs. Real, balanced competitive play is made MUCH more difficult when there are different teams with different abilities and different weapons. That's what made R6 so great in MP was that both teams had access to the exact same equipment. From there it was down to spawn points and team skills to decide who won.


<span class="ev_code_red">11. Multiplayer Modes</span>

Try to come up with some unique form of objective based MP mode that works in a non-respawning game style so that competition isn't stuck with Team Survival camping matches as the only real solution.

By unique, I mean something OTHER than bomb, or hostage rescue or any of those tired old methods. Perhaps a sort of conquest style play, where if you control most of the map and nothing changes for some time, the team that's trapped in a location is given a timer and must break free from their position before they lose.

Too often, matches result in one team securing themselves in one or two rooms of a map and waiting it out for the other team to try and breach, knowing that the assaulting team generally ends up with more casualties. While I'm not saying remove Team Survival as a mode, I'd love to see something offered that plays similar but somehow restricts teams from camping in one corner of a map.


<span class="ev_code_red">12. Kit Restrictions</span>

Yep. It's pretty much plain and simple. Let the server decide what weapons, equipment, grenades and attachments are allowed.


<span class="ev_code_red">13. Locational Damage Effects</span>

Shot in the leg = limp
Shot in the arm = lower accuracy, less stability in firing
Shot in the chest = Slightly slower movement and worse accuracy?


<span class="ev_code_red">14. Model recoil again like in Raven-Shield</span>

As the title says... only this time, don't make it so extreme. Ret should not bloom from firing, ret should bloom from movement of the weapon. If the weapon rises from recoil, the rets should not bloom until the player uses the mouse to compensate (and even then it shouldn't be as huge a bloom/recoil effect as in Raven-Shield).


<span class="ev_code_red">15. Random Spawns</span>

In MP adversarial maps, allow several different spawn points for both teams (see the method America's Army uses in it's newer maps). Each team has three different spawn locations and each round one of those three is randomly chosen to start at. This way, you never really know exactly where the opposing team is going to start, just a general direction of where they might be. In AA it REALLY cut down on the premeditated grenade spam and actually made you check every corner you went around in case the enemy spawned close enough to already be there.


<span class="ev_code_red">16. Integrated Voice Comms</span>

I personally never use them since I prefer to only chat with my friends via Teamspeak/Ventrillo, but it wouldn't hurt to have the ability for those who aren't already in tight knit groups. It helps people identify with their teammates better. Just make sure that you have the ability to mute people easily if need be, from a client perspective and a master mute from a server admin perspective as well. (Client can mute the people they don't want to listen to, server admins can mute players completely so NO ONE can hear them if they're being annoying/abusive.)


<span class="ev_code_red">17. Armor / Ammo</span>

Bring back choice of armor and choice of ammo type. While ammo type doesn't affect a ton in MP since just about everyone wears armor (so everyone uses FMJ), it makes a huge difference in SP deciding if there are enough civvies/hostages present to warrant going with JHP to cut down on the penetration.


<span class="ev_code_red">18. NO EXPLODING BARRELS!!!!</span>

That's all on that one...


<span class="ev_code_red">19. More movement speeds</span>

While I'd like to see a splinter cell style level of control over movement speeds, I think a more feasible method would be one akin to America's Army.

Give us a walk speed, a run speed and a sprint. Have the sprint tied to a stamina meter so you can't sprint for long periods of time and have the player unable to shoot while sprinting.


<span class="ev_code_red">20. Bullet Penetration</span>

Give us at least SOME penetration of objects, doors, furniture, etc... I'd love to see FULL penetration including walls, but gamers tend to complain about that. Maybe a server side option... Full / partial penetration model?


<span class="ev_code_red">21. Civillians</span>

For the love of god, give us some civillians in the maps. Some as random hostages, some just hiding out on their own. Make us have to identify a target as a threat BEFORE we open fire.

<span class="ev_code_red">22. Random enemy/hostage/bomb locations</span>

See SWAT 4 for this. All hostages and enemy AI are set up in random locations about the map. The bombs in their maps are also spread out amongst a series of possible locations. It really increases replayability and makes it a real challenge instead of just memorizing enemy locations like in Lockdown.


And finally for tonight, the big one...


<span class="ev_code_red">23. Do something NEW with a ret/aiming system.</span>

Give us a ret system that is more involved than just "moving means wider, stopping means tighter."

Have it bloom when you start moving and draw tighter as you continue in the same direction, like in Rogue Spear (only don't let it get quite as tight as it did in RS while running).

Then the longer you run, have it bloom more and take some time at a slow walk / dead stop to return to normal again. So if you're running in a short burst to clear rooms and pausing now and then, the ret spreads then closes again fairly quickly, but if you're running constantly through the map, the ret will NOT grow tight again. This will encourage quick room breaches, and still discourage constant run/gun play.

Have it bloom more with erratic motions and less with slower more calculated motions. If I snap my aim 90 degrees to the left in less than one second, my rets should be much wider than if I pan to the left 90 degrees over several seconds. Again, that ties in with consistency in movement from earlier... It shouldn't just take into account consistency in movement in a direction (forward, back, left, right) but consistency in turning speeds as well. More calculated and deliberate motion should result in better accuracy than snap motions.

Have injuries affect the scale of all these bloom effects. If you're wounded, it will bloom faster than if you were uninjured.

Have leaning affect the ret bloom. Leaning left for a right handed soldier should be more difficult to do accurately than leaning right, and leaning period should be more difficult to do than firing when standing straight.

Make SURE ret-knock is in, so if you are hit before/while you fire, your accuracy is knocked to hell. People will complain that it rewards firing first over "skill", but that's the reality of it. Whoever fires and HITS first is generally the one that's going to win a firefight. The exception to that case should be rare.

sx_amazing
03-07-2006, 09:32 PM
You read my mind.

IBA_DR_DEATH
03-07-2006, 09:48 PM
hope you give us support and a real PC game not recoded console trash like lockdown

TedSmith
03-07-2006, 09:56 PM
Oh yeah...

24. Spectator mode AND Death Cam

A seperate spectator mode is needed for competitions, so that ladder/league admins can observe matches. This MUST, I repeat MUST be different than the death cam spectating, so that players who die in ladder matches cannot abuse the system and spectate the other team.

Death cam (TEAM ONLY) spectating is a necessity of non-respawn play, so that people don't get bored out of their wits waiting for the round to end.

Woosy
03-08-2006, 01:24 AM
I agree with all except 2 and 10. Number 2 because, the Moscow theatre siege was 50 terrorists alfa team dealt with it not the army. The difference between the army and Special Forces is that Special Forces do explosive entry and are highly trainined for hostage and sabotage situations the Army isn't. Even if there was a 100 terrorists in the Moscow siege Alfa team (Special Forces) would of dealt with it.

Number 10, Should be Rainbow vs Rainbow but when you see each other they are mercs, all weapons should be available to each team, this will stop the ID problems with having the standard Rainbow vs Rainbow like in RvS.

Oh, and please remove heartbeat sensor, motion sensor, which acts like a wallhack, this is mean't to be a Special Forces team, it's not slow and tidy, it's hard and fast! Push players to clear rooms out with professional CQB tactics this is a challenge.

fedayn81
03-08-2006, 02:12 AM
i want to see and play GR:AW before, look to innovatives features of that game, and then ask for them into new R6.

I'm talking about AI behavior, Squad Commands, etc.

DreamMarine
03-08-2006, 03:50 AM
Really great work, Ted!!!

If UBI took all your points to heart, Rainbow Six 5 will become a real big hit! There is not much more to say about it.

Just one or two wishes from myself:

1) I would love to see a kind of "real training" with grading afterwards. I would like to LEARN real tactics.

2) There should be done everything to encourage teamwork in MP. Examples:

- MP modes, where you need multiple team members to reach the objective.

- Points based on reaching the objective.

Things like that!

3) I definately agree in kicking those heart beat sensors and so on. Why not use fiber optics to sneek peek under doors. like in reality.


DreamMarine

KiNG_is_killing
03-08-2006, 05:26 AM
my wish list:

we def need a heart beat sensor like in rvs or simlar, the motion sensor is ld is a bit to easy if u ask me, if its not on it will be just camping from the other team, really anoying on mp.

Give us a thermal scope for sniper rifles with a multi colour display. (as in Project IGI) and with some rifles allow us the option to zoom in further, rather that a fixed scope.

Real gun names as in ravensheild !!
Guns should have lots of attachments; like scope/silcener together.

When leaning allow us to WALK left and right, and not run.

At least 8 players for co op !

Make it the same speed as ravenshield for running/walking, or what about a burst spirt as in BF2 ? ld was a complete joke was far to fast.

Allow the players to shoot throu wood etc. to make a kill or gimp.

Need way better AI than in lockdown.

NO RESPAWNS - IF A MUST MAKE IT SERVER SIDED SO IT CAN BE TURNED OFF.

AND THE MAIN POINT - TEST IT ONLINE BEFORE ITS RELEASED AND MAKE SURE PB WORKS 100% (thats if its in it)
Release all server files week or so before final relase date so game servers are ready to go.

SODsniper
03-08-2006, 05:48 AM
Daaamn, ya'all have laid it all out. Nothing left for me to add.

But ya'all know I will anyways. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Re-iterate the deal with the Dedicated Server. The is the numero uno. 'Nuff said.

I also agree with TS that exploding barrels are getting pretty lame..

BUT..... I think (depending on the environment, IE map) exploding gas cans, Propane tanks etc etc would be realistic.. And FUN too!

I would also like to see a game mode whereas one player acts as a controller for the entire squad. If anyone saw the movie ALIENS with Michael Bienh, that's the concept I have in mind. One person sits at a console with screens and (using TS's idea of helmet cams) directs his/her team to the objective. This mode of play would be enhanced with the controller being able to tap into map survellience cams.

T2RVS
03-08-2006, 06:11 AM
DON'T MACK AROUND WITH MULTIPLAYER MODE!!! No:11

By this I mean keep the classic modes like what RVS is having and add new ones if you guys wanted.

I really ask the devs to really work the netcode out please please abd please never have a respawn option!

Billion thanks!

SODsniper
03-08-2006, 06:17 AM
In a nutshell, I would just like to see RavenShield II with all the current gaming technology available.

DreamMarine
03-08-2006, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by T2RVS:
I really ask the devs to really work the netcode out please please abd please never have a respawn option!


I agree with that: Don't invent to much new features, if time and money is pressing. RvS was just right for a starting point.

And top priority should definately have: QUALITY!!!

Malleus.
03-08-2006, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by SODsniper:
In a nutshell, I would just like to see RavenShield II with all the current gaming technology available.

QFE http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

<I like the colors in this forum. My name looks sooo cool in red http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif >

ArchangelSKT
03-08-2006, 11:04 AM
Very good post.

I would like to add however som kind of training map \ firing range where you both get results as in :


- Total score
- Time used

And of course a "Terrorist Hunt" mode with as many Terrorist as possible just for fun and option.

vegas_
03-08-2006, 11:24 AM
JUST PLAY RAVEN SHIELD AND YOU WILL KNOW WHAT WE WANT !!!

FWF_BooBoo
03-08-2006, 11:44 AM
I agree that RvS is a great game, but I am dieing for atleast some change. I don't want an expansion pack or RvS with better graphics. I wants the game to move forward. I do agree with alot of the things listed. Some of them I agree with just to maybe bring in more people but will probably never use, like the VOIP. Some I disagree with.. no more exploding barrels? C'mon, the feelings of 'barrelling' someone or being 'barreled' had no equal, would like to see more interactive things in the environment in the next game, they don't all have to kill us but some more things to shoot at would be nice. I personally can't wait to get some info on what capabilities this game will have so we can start giving ideas on what to do...

MrVeLLu
03-08-2006, 11:45 AM
Good stuff, TedSmith.

Bring back the radar. Realistic or not, it's a big part of R6. Or was, since Lockdown didn't have it (unless using HBS). Also, where's the original R6 lady with her voice? I want her to tell me if I won or did a m0NsTerKILL!!!111 Okey, erase that last one.

FI_FlimFlam
03-08-2006, 11:46 AM
Since it wasn't listened to the first time around I will just copy and past this from the LD forums (with a few addittions).

Administration:

Dedicated server set up:
1)Have a robust and full featured admin, where you can customise virtually every server setting
2)Number of rounds, round length, and time between rounds
3)Admin can set number of players in server (allow for setting max #of player up to 16 in adver) rather than just 16 for adver or 4 (you have got to make it 8) for COOP
4)If the zulu code when dead is present allow for filtering or zulu spam levels, chat spam filter
5)Have admins be able to set 50 plus maps in config for map rotation (hopefully custom maps will be easy to make). It is nice to play for an evening for several hours and not play the same map twice.
6)Include an anti-cheat. I like punkbuster.
7)Must be able to maintain and load multiple ban lists created by the server admin to keep problem players from re-joining the servers. This MUST be tied to the CD-Key and not IP as that the IP is too easy to change for most players.
8)If you choose not to go with Punkbuster, then you should implement alot of the basic player controlling features that are integrated into it. Such as bad name filtering, registered tags for Clans.
9)Web based server admin (passworded) that perhaps clans can use their PHP websites to hook into as well. It should allow all of the features of the N4admin that is available for RvS.
10)ROBUST LOGGING. Be able to have more information logged by the server. Including chat. If possible include console commands issued by the clients (this is to record launching of external cheats from the console). This feature should be a toggle so the Admin can decide if they do or do not want "verbose" logging.
11)Dedicated servers are a must. Provide a dedicated server package that can either be uploaded to remote servers or downloaded to them from the web for ease of install. DO NOT REQUIRE a graphics card to run a dedicated server (like JointOps did). If you do you, will hamstring the ability for alot of Teams/Clans to provide game servers for the public.
12)Allow multiple servers to run on the same physical box. Called multi-home with the Unreal Engine. Allow configuration for specific ports on the same IP for different servers. MANY teams/clans like to run multiple servers. This also allows providers to reduce the cost of hosting for teams/clans that do not own their own dedicated servers.

In game Admin:
1)Include all of the round control and player control commands in RvS and some addittional ones. Include the ability to switch a player's team, PM's to individual players, Suiciding of players by the admin. MacGyvers XtendCMD's mod for RvS is a great example to check out for addittional commands for the admin that were left out of RvS.
2)GUI server control/modification. To allow for addittion of maps and change of server settings. Include GUI player management for switching players, kicking and banning.
3)Unique name filtering, do not allow players to join or change their name to the same one as a player that is already in the server. Give joining players a 1 minute time to change their name or be kicked.

General Administration:
1)Keep as many settings server side as possible. Keep metrics for ret bloom, player speed, player info, weapon metrics, etc. all server side. Perhaps make them downloaded to the clients every mapchange. This would prevent client modification of files to gain advantage. Addittionally it will allow for mods to be configured where player settings are downloaded to the client rather than haveing to "install" them before going into a server. Similar to the server side mods in RvS.
2)LOCK the console to admin login and basic commands (such as name changing, flushing engine caches, and admin functions). Do not allow the launching of external scripts or loading of configurations from the console. This will prevent cheaters from launching external cheats and loading modified configs once in the game server.
3)Lock out ALT-TAB. I hate to say it but if you can't alt tab out, cheaters will have a more difficult time launching cheats once in the game. The negative will be that it prevents people from starting up or changing Teamspeak or Ventrillo once in game (that is why you should add commands for controlling them).
4)Global and/or Map Specific Restriction kits. At the very least global restrictions kits are a must. Map specific would be a great help to server admins for the flexibility it would offer. Any restriction kit must be able to restrict any comination of (or all) weapons, attachements, grenades, and special kit items. In otherwords, anything that can be equiped can be restricted by the server admin. It would be a boon to servers and gameplay to be able to set map specific restriction kits in the dedicated server package. This would allow for restricting grenades on certain maps the usually denegrate into the first 30 seconds of frag-fest. Or to mix pistols only and full weapons (or other unique load outs) in the same map rotation without having have an admin in the server to modifiy the restriction kit.

ANTI-Cheat:

Do not try to do the anti-cheat in house if you are not going to dedicate the manpower to stay ontop of it. As soon as an update is released cheaters are trying to circumvent it. If you do not plan on updating it often (more than 3 times a year) don't even consider it - especially if you don't allow some sort of addittional Admin configured checks on top of the systems checks. Otherwise, if a simple cheat is discovered between updates, admins have no way of keeping it out of the server until the next update.

I like Punkbuster as an anti-cheat because it is an established system that no only works to detect cheats but includes ALOT of admin configurable tools that can increase protection in a server in the interim between detection updates. It is also configurable in the way it handles alot of violations allowing the admin to kick or ban.

Punkbuster also allows groups of server admins to pool their knowledge and share banlist like the MBL from Punksbusted.com and SBL from Respected Admins. Addittionally they share PB configurations that check for addittional new cheats that haven't been included in the PB default detections or between PB updates.

Also PB includes some addittional server management tools like Clan Tag registration which allows for positive identification of a Clan member showing as registered as opposed to someone that is smurfing the tag trying to disrupt a server. It also include a name filter for disallowing bad names (such as racist or inflamatory names) in your server.

Those are just a few reasons I like PB.


Mod/Map Support:

I will only address mapping. One of the reasons RvS has remained so popular for so long is the number of community created maps. If LD does not have a freely available or low cost and relatively easy to use map editor, then it will die off quickly because people will tire of the stock maps with nothing new to play. Make mapping relatively easy to do and the Lockdown community will continue to grow over time.

This should be released as close as possible to the game release. It should not be held back for several months while the game and player lose interest without having new content to play.

This is a must have if mapping tools are eventually provided:

A Redirect service that actually works. For those who don't know, redirect allows custom maps to be downloaded from another server than the game server. Alot of teams that play custom maps on their servers use this to reduce the load on their game server and have players automatically download the maps. If the game server can be set to download custom maps at the full available bandwidth rather than at 5kb/s then it might not be needed.

Clan Support:
If you choose not to go with PunkBuster, I would ask for some sort of tag or clan registration that would positively identify a player as a clan member to prevent malicious smurfing.


3rd Party Browser Support (ASE/GSPY/X-fire...):

Include support for all the major 3rd party browsers that you can for free. ASE, Xfire, Gamespy. Allow joining from them as well. Many, many players use them as a better way to find and filter servers, and friends than is generally included in an ingame server browser. Most like the ability to see if a friend is playing and immediately jump into the server without having to go through the typical game startup splash screens.

XsargenX
03-08-2006, 01:44 PM
Damm dude you must of taken lots of time writing that whole Novel. Why couldn't you just write little now, then some more later. Gezzzz

SODsniper
03-08-2006, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by FWF_BooBoo:
I agree that RvS is a great game, but I am dieing for atleast some change. I don't want an expansion pack or RvS with better graphics. I wants the game to move forward. I do agree with alot of the things listed. Some of them I agree with just to maybe bring in more people but will probably never use, like the VOIP. Some I disagree with.. no more exploding barrels? C'mon, the feelings of 'barrelling' someone or being 'barreled' had no equal, would like to see more interactive things in the environment in the next game, they don't all have to kill us but some more things to shoot at would be nice. I personally can't wait to get some info on what capabilities this game will have so we can start giving ideas on what to do...

I agree BB.. What I meant was, follow the same format/outline/idea of RvS, but incorporate the new technology into it.

I guess what I mean is change the bad and keep the good.. Sounds simple, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As to the exploding barrels, I see the point somewhat. Barrels exploding is so..... so..... 2001.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But, propane tanks, gas tanks of cars, gas cans lying around. As a map maker, I have a certain knack. I can make ANYTHING blow up. I think that kind of flexibility is really needed in RB6-5.

reggo
03-08-2006, 02:19 PM
Congrats on your post TedSmith. Great work!


I just want to add that I'd like to see a real focus on realism this time. Don't get me wrong, I don't want an 'army simulator', I want a 'tactical shooter', that is, a game that is as much FUN as REALISTIC.

That's why I'd like to see weapons accurately modeled on their real ballistic caracteristics. And that may mean NO BALANCING for MP. Does that mean that all the players will choose the same few best weapons? That's possible... But America's Army players doesn't seem bothered of having only a few weapons to play with.

At least, it SHOULD BE POSSIBLE to play the Single Player (SP) experience with the real weapons caracteristics (ballistics of firearms, bullet penetration, casualty and kill radius of frag grenades, sounds, etc).

Or maybe there could be and option to select realism (for SP) and balanced (for MP) ???

Also, weapon realism does imply realistic material penetration for me... Soon or latter, a game will come with fully realistic material penetration. Why R6 wouldn't be the first?


Originally posted by JustCDR:
we def need a heart beat sensor like in rvs

Give us a thermal scope for sniper rifles with a multi colour display. (as in Project IGI)


Again, realism would recommend the use of a 'SWAT 4 style' fiber optics device, instead of the fantasy HBS. But the HBS doesn't hurt so much since it was the only fantasy device introduced by Tom Clancy. As long as the SP campaign never requires me to use it, I don't mind really. But please, no more 'science fiction' novelty (at least in the PC version)...

As for the 'multi colour display' thermal scope, I strongly disagree! Thermal scopes doesn't work this way! Raven Shield was pretty right in it's depiction of the thermal devices: it's mostly black&white. The 'multi-color display' was a gimmick introduced for the console versions. Please let's keep the PC version mature and serious (and still fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

IgGy001985
03-08-2006, 03:41 PM
- Give PC version some exclusive features like "realism", "challenging enemy AI" and "clever team AI" for instance. Learn that PC users don't usually own gamepads.

- Do not treat PC like a past-gen platform or some **** like that. Give us a decent graphics quality meeting those from "next"-gen consoles

TedSmith
03-08-2006, 04:32 PM
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with those people asking to remove the HBS. You may not like it, but it's part of the lore of Rainbow Six, directly from the novel. It MUST be in the game.

However, considering I've also stated that we should have complete control over kit restrictions, that also means you folks can set up servers that restrict the HBS. Problem solved.

As for the exploding barrels.... No, no and no. Exploding propane tanks? Sure. Exploding oxygen canisters (as seen in SWAT 4) sure. Helium works too. But plain and simple, oil and gasoline barrels DO NOT EXPLODE WHEN SHOT. They leak. It would require something more to ignite them and set off an explosion.

Though I admit it would be cool if you could set a trap, shoot a barrel to start it leaking, then toss a WP or a flare to ignite the barrel for an even bigger boom. I'm fine with that... but gas/oil barrels exploding when simply being shot is absurd and always takes me out of the game when I see it. Just like shooting at cars and making them explode. Yeesh.

Hey.. come to think of it... FLARES (or glow-sticks ala SWAT 4). Those things are great for tracking where you've been in a map and marking rooms you've already cleared.

TedSmith
03-08-2006, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Woosy:
Number 2 because, the Moscow theatre siege was 50 terrorists alfa team dealt with it not the army.

Alfa is still army. Just army special forces, that's all. :P Besides that, the point wasn't which team, the point was in the ratio of terrorists to operatives. I guarantee you Alfa didn't send in four men to take down all 50.

One thing I'd like to see if they intend to continue with this four man only team theory (which I sincerely hope they don't) is OTHER teams breaching the building from different places with their own objectives, even if we don't get to control them. The one thing that has always gotten to me about Rainbow games is that they never show a proper sense of scale.

Even if they keep 'your' team as the chief squad, taking on the brunt of the enemies, let me look out a window and see another team of NPC Rainbows breaching a different section of the building so I know that I'm not alone. (again: This idea only really matters if they don't allow us multiple teams, though it could still be done to add a greater sense of scale)

Elite or no, you simply don't send four men in to take down fifty terrorists, much less 100+ from the Lockdown levels. 20 terrorists to four operatives, I can buy since they're mythical elite operatives (though it's FAR from realistic), but they went so far over the top in Lockdown that it COMPLETELY destroyed my suspension of disbelief. I want a game that keeps me on the edge of my seat, not one that keeps me rolling my eyes at the 120th terrorist that just ran straight out into the street in front of me.


Number 10, Should be Rainbow vs Rainbow but when you see each other they are mercs, all weapons should be available to each team, this will stop the ID problems with having the standard Rainbow vs Rainbow like in RvS.

That would work too, but it might be IP infringement on the AA system. I'd love to see it if they could do it without getting sued.

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-08-2006, 04:58 PM
Nice post Ted, to the point. There are various things you sadi that would be a bit of a waste of Dev's time though. Anything not mentioned i agree with.

Running while peaking does not give a player an advantage in anyway. Removing this would just be another restriciton. It allows you to go from peaking/runing/strafing fluidly. I am back playing RVS, if someone is peaking and running anywhere else than round a corner, they are just a target.

Definately agree with Prone position. Even if it is barely used, removing it is another poor restriction. Also the bit about dropping when under effective enmy fire is very good. Soldner Secret Wars has that and i read that GRAW has something where u slide on your knee (bit silly though, try sliding onconcrete or gravel).

The helmet cam is a bit pointless. In GRAW its allright cos it s that kind of 'slow moving/tactical/warfare game' but CQB is about fast paced, close quarters action.

To be honest, there is no need for Mercs V mercs at all. What woosy said about them 'appearing to be mercs' was very unecassary. What i would suggest is: character customisation where u have access to a limited amount of different clothes (not uniforms but seperate items like trousers, jackets, t-shirts etc). The clothes would then be coloured according to the team you are playing on (to prevent problems with identification of target). Really there doesnt have to be 'rainbow v rainbow' as such, just operatives with all the same weapons etc but complete rainbow uniforms would be available for use.

The conquest mode sounds good.

Kit restrictions: come on now, i think its finally time to allow use of things that are common in combat (IE: rifle attached M203 laucnhers, as many accessories as a weapon can fit). GRAW have finally done away with the 'one item per weapon' rule and you can have a rifle with a launcher/scope and silencer or vertical grip/iron sights etc. A torch would be good like in the regiment.

Raven shields recoil/ret system was almost perfect. To much variations of the reticle is a bit pointless and unrealistic. Maybe a little less recoil but it could make it a lot easier.

various spawn locations would do the game a lot of good. Too many 'top players' rely on routine but cant operate on new maps etc. Would really make co-op more tactical too.

There is no need for integrated voice comms. You would probably get morons shouting and stuff. Comms should be a choice so outside programmes are the option.

Exploding barrels are a bit of a cliche but i totally agree with SODsniper. Various explosive things would be realistic.

The bullet penetration bit is good, and the option of wall penetration should be available.


Heres some things that should be in it:

Once you pull pin on frag it goes live, you can hold it till it explodes in your hand. This will allow people to master the timing of throwing a frag that explodes as it hits target. Could also discourage noob fraggers (cos you couldnt run around with the pin out)

Realistic richochets/bullet rebounds of solid metal materials if possible (not sure how they work)

Something to tell you how you were killed in rarer situations (head shot, richochet etc) maybe

A 'hold to use' sprint button and 'hold to use' creep button (if u see a sniper, creep up almost silently), also prevent people hearing every sound you make with good seound cards.

Sounds of equipment being taken out should not be so ridiculously exaggerate like RVS. Really you could pull something out silently but some audible noise would be good.

A roll ability while in prone position would be good. also a roll while crouching would be even better (crouch at corner of wall, roll out and crouch. A dive would be good for getting out of the way of explosives and enemy fire.

Planting explosives should not be so silly. In RVS all you do is place a little C4 down but it takes long, really you could just drop it...


Like Sniper said: in a nutshell, an improved version of RVS. Better graphics (not the priority though), gameplay, physics etc
People who are too used to RS didnt like RVS but RVS is the best FPS made so far (unbiased).
The fact that the only person on the team mention was said to be the leader of the RVS team (not lockdown) makes me hopeful for this game. Fingers crossed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

reggo
03-08-2006, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by TedSmith:
20 terrorists to four operatives, I can buy since they're mythical elite operatives (though it's FAR from realistic), ...


And that's the difference between a 'simulator' and a 'tactical shooter game'.

A simulator would require some scenarios where you have 10 to 15 elite operatives for one or two bad guys. Hardly fun to play!

At the other end of the spectrum, we have the traditional FPS with one hero against an army.

The tactical shooter ala R6, with it's 20 to 35 tangos for 4 to 8 operatives brings the best of both worlds, that is, fun play and 'believable enough' realism.

TedSmith
03-08-2006, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by O_SHOGTUK_O:
Running while peaking does not give a player an advantage in anyway. Removing this would just be another restriciton.

Yes, it would. A realistic restriction. That's the point. There is no way a player should ever be allowed to run while leaning to the side, it's absurd.


The helmet cam is a bit pointless. In GRAW its allright cos it s that kind of 'slow moving/tactical/warfare game' but CQB is about fast paced, close quarters action.

Have you ever played a ladder match in Raven-Shield? It is anything but fast paced, all over in 30 seconds kind of play. It's very similar in nature to SWAT 4, just a little faster moving, and the cams work very well in that game.


Kit restrictions: come on now, i think its finally time to allow use of things that are common in combat (IE: rifle attached M203 laucnhers, as many accessories as a weapon can fit). GRAW have finally done away with the 'one item per weapon' rule and you can have a rifle with a launcher/scope and silencer or vertical grip/iron sights etc. A torch would be good like in the regiment.

You should NEVER EVER EVER have an M203 in a CQB situation. As a soldier, you would get smacked for even suggesting you bring one, especially when there are civillians and hostages in the building.

Kit restrictions are an absolute necessity for competitive play and for people to set up servers how THEY want them to play. Perhaps you misunderstand what Kit Restrictions are... It's a server side list of all the equipment in the game so that the admins can decide what is allowed to be used and what isn't on their server.

As for multiple attachments, I agree. We should have multiple attachments, but it needs to have realistic ramifications as well.


Raven shields recoil/ret system was almost perfect. To much variations of the reticle is a bit pointless and unrealistic.

I disagree entirely. Raven-shield's recoil/ret system was pathetically simplistic. It felt like it was designed for children to me. Walk and your rets automatically expand to x width. Run and they automatically expand to y. Turn and they bloom to z, regardless of speed, accuracy, momentum.

The ret system is exactly why close quarters battles were so absurd with people circle-strafing and blazing full auto until the other dropped. If anything that is the ONE MAJOR thing that needs to be looked at if they mean to improve on Raven-Shield.


There is no need for integrated voice comms. You would probably get morons shouting and stuff. Comms should be a choice so outside programmes are the option.

Just because you and I use 3rd party comms doesn't mean everyone else does or wants to. As I said, it must have proper muting capabilities, but as online games progress, the lack of voice comms is simply unacceptable. They exist in EVERY SINGLE online console game, why should the PC lag behind just because some players are used to 3rd party tools?

If they really want to draw new players to an online PC game, this is how you do it. Not just making a good game, but helping players communicate and identify with OTHER PLAYERS.


Once you pull pin on frag it goes live, you can hold it till it explodes in your hand. This will allow people to master the timing of throwing a frag that explodes as it hits target. Could also discourage noob fraggers (cos you couldnt run around with the pin out)

Negative. This is NOT how frag grenades (or any modern grenades) work. They do not go live the second you pull the pin, but after you release the spoon. The ability to cook a grenade when someone specifically chooses to is a possible idea, but generally speaking the spoon isn't released until the grenade is in the air unless they're intentionally timing the grenade (a VERY rare occurance, btw considering that the fuses are often tempermental)


Something to tell you how you were killed in rarer situations (head shot, richochet etc) maybe

People will glare at me for suggesting it, but I always liked the CS system, where it actually told you WHAT someone killed you with in the log.

I also like some of the mods in CS:S now that tell you where you were hit, how many times you were hit and vice versa, who YOU hit, where and how many times after you die.

I'd also like the option to disable kill messages entirely on a server. That way those of us who would like a more realistic game could have one on the right server setup. No more blind fragging around corners and over buildings then watching for "So-and-so has killed bo-bob-rae."


Sounds of equipment being taken out should not be so ridiculously exaggerate like RVS. Really you could pull something out silently but some audible noise would be good.

Agreed. I always felt like I was making more sound than I would moving furniture when switching kit items in Raven-Shield.

OH! OH! And on that note! DROP THE DAMN "SHHH...CLICK" when looking through a scope. What the HELL is that supposed to be anyways?

The zoom animation should be dropped entirely as well. Scopes don't "zoom in", they are already AT the proper magnification when you lift the weapon to look through your optics, and you don't have to turn them on or do anything that would cause a clicking noise.

Switching to and from a scope should be MUCH faster than it is in either Raven-Shield or Lockdown, BUT, it should carry with it an accuracy penalty for a fraction of a second afterwards to discourage constant switching back and forth. It takes a bit of time to adjust to using optics and again after you stop using them. Not long, but it isn't instant.


Planting explosives should not be so silly. In RVS all you do is place a little C4 down but it takes long, really you could just drop it...

You could "just drop it" but you still have to set the detonator. I'm not particularly experienced or knowledgable about the use of C4, but I imagine they don't walk around with it already armed.

TedSmith
03-08-2006, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by reggo:
The tactical shooter ala R6, with it's 20 to 35 tangos for 4 to 8 operatives brings the best of both worlds, that is, fun play and 'believable enough' realism.

Isn't that what I said?

Woosy
03-08-2006, 05:55 PM
I don't think the players appearing as Merc vs Merc is not unnecessary at all, it would be good as an option. I still play RvS and when I'm on a team I and others somtimes forget our teams BDU colour on a map change we end up tking, Mercs is a recognisable target straight off the bat, no mistaking a Merc. There was so much trouble with the BDU colour in RvS that never got fixed properly, this to me is a better way.

I find that option more realistic then Rainbow vs Rainbow, and if you wanted customisation they would show on the Merc model aswell as your rainbow model to the server. They have the customisation you're talking about in GRAW, but watching videos from MP with customisation it's still hard to tell friend from foe, but since it has the outlines on players you can't make a mistake, unless it's turned off.

TedSmith
03-08-2006, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Woosy:
I and others somtimes forget our teams BDU colour on a map change we end up tking...

I do that all the time. It's even worse in SWAT 4. :P

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-08-2006, 06:00 PM
There is no reason why you should not be allowed to run peaked, saying that is absurd. Restrictions are not good, there is always a time where it could come in handy. Stopping that just makes the movement more blocky (A to B to C to D) as appose to smooth and fluid.

The difference between GRAW and RVS is that you 'can' play RVS fast and survive. GRAW you will get picked off from a roof or hill somewhere. I am in a RVS clan, actual matches are slower paced due to whats at stake but when we are playing in our public server i rush/storm/assault with great success.

I know what kit restrictions are... I was also talking about actual game weapon retrictions. Obviously a server should be allowed to retrict weapons etc. There is always a scenario where an m203 could be used. There are smaller M203 launchers for CQB purposes. It is basically a grenade, Rainbows carry grenades... PS. the frag blast radius should be bigger.

Simple is best, not too simple but not over the top. no matter how rets bloom, up close/circling its all the same (a gun will only be innacurate from further away/5-10meters+. Up close the gun fires the bullet and the isnt much room for it to go astray. It is more complex than Lockdowns ret system anyway.

A console is a dumbed down/universal version of a pc (designed to be used by young ages as well as adults). This is the reason consoles have built in comms. come on now ted... a 3rd party programme for a console? Consoles just do everything for you whereas you have to do it yourself with a pc. There isnt any reason or advantage to in built comms really.

I know exactly how a grenade works but i wondered if having two functions when throwing grenades would be too much so i didnt mention it. If i had to choose i would go for the one i said. Spoons are released in air cos they throw it while holding the spoon. I dont think a pc game should be thinking about tempermental fuses... Idealy you would be able to pull pin and hold spoon or let spoon go while holdin frag to time its explosion but it could be too much buttons or maybe its easily possible. Like i said i understand how grenades work.

hehe yeh since when did puttin your eye to a scope make a click sound... There are scopes that zoom (i have one: 3-9x magification) but not smoothly and you have to manually turn a knob.

Like i said, good post. im not trying to argue, im just disagreeing with one or two things. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-08-2006, 06:05 PM
The colours of uniforms would have to be complete opposites/noticable (black + tan etc).GRAW works on a larger scale, RVS will probably be all close quarters.

I'm sorry but i never tk cos of my colour. I might occasionaly tk due to someone running round a corner fast etc but not colour. IS it so hard to look at your players arm and see what colour you are? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The idea of people not appearing how they are just sounds childish. sorry http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

SODsniper
03-08-2006, 06:14 PM
I would also like to see where the round is NOT over until all ordinance is expended... This way, a final nade might even things up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-08-2006, 06:18 PM
Yeah, would be more realistic. Just remembered one of the things i hated most about lockdown (only small but it is so arcadish), The flippin bullet trails!! In real life you wouldnt see a bullet pass you if you didnt hear the shot. What would be great is if the put the bullet whistle noise in so u know your being shot at. In lockdown you just turn to the direction of the bullet trail.

Just to clear something up, they are not tracer bullets, they are just arcade bullet trails/matrix bullet time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

reggo
03-08-2006, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by TedSmith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by reggo:
The tactical shooter ala R6, with it's 20 to 35 tangos for 4 to 8 operatives brings the best of both worlds, that is, fun play and 'believable enough' realism.


Isn't that what I said?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for trying to support your point... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

TedSmith
03-08-2006, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by O_SHOGTUK_O:
There is no reason why you should not be allowed to run peaked, saying that is absurd.

We're going for a game that at least TRIES to simulate reality. You show me a soldier leaning over, running and shooting in a combat situation without falling over and MAYBE I'd consider it feasible. Leaning, running and shooting at the same time is as absurd as dolphin diving in BF2.

All you need to do to remove that 'a to b to c' concept that you spoke of is that as soon as the player hits the run button, it straightens them out and pulls them out of their optics. That way, there is no time wasted in pressing other buttons to stop your lean or 'zoom out'. You just press run and you're on the move.

AA works the same way in terms of using a scope. As soon as you press the button to bring up your optics, it slows you to a walk, 'zooming out' puts you back to whatever movement speed you were at before, and if you hit run it automatically pulls you out of your scope. It doesn't impact on fluidity or simplicity of play because you don't have to think about it, you just press the button and it does what it's supposed to.



There are smaller M203 launchers for CQB purposes. It is basically a grenade, Rainbows carry grenades...

I'm going to have to call you on that. Cite a source, please.


Simple is best, not too simple but not over the top. no matter how rets bloom, up close/circling its all the same (a gun will only be innacurate from further away/5-10meters+.

You SHOULD be right about that, but that's NOT how it worked in RvS. That's exactly WHY it needs to be changed. The guns in RvS had a tendency to fire at 45 degree angles to miss a target that was point blank simply because you're moving. RvS was decent at close range and medium range, but GOD AWFUL at point blank.

Rogue Spear had a far better ret system than Raven-Shield ever did. That doesn't mean it couldn't be improved upon. It needed restrictions on how far the rets closed while moving and it could have used a recoil system like RvS. Frankly, it sounds like you're looking at the ret system as if you would actually have to think about it when playing.

It doesn't matter HOW complicated they make it or how many details it takes into account. If you are skilled at the game and not frantically spinning your mouse around all the time, then you wouldn't have a problem.

The point of improving the system is that we NEED a way to allow players to move quickly and shoot with decent accuracy now and then without making it feasible to simply turn on auto-run and sprint around shooting. That's exactly what Raven-Shield turned into, scope in, turn on your auto-run and fire away. It was moronic and it needs to be fixed.


There isnt any reason or advantage to in built comms really.

And again, that's your bias simply because it's what you're used to. There is no reason anyone should HAVE to go out of a game and find some 3rd party program just to speak to other players in this day and age unless they are looking to speak with specific people only. Claiming that it's unnecessary just because YOU wouldn't personally use it is asinine and naive.


I know exactly how a grenade works

Then why suggest that they model grenades in the game in a way that they DO NOT work? That's just silly. Either it has to stay with the grenade primed but not armed until thrown, or they have to allow the OPTION of 'cooking' it. There's no reason to force players to use a grenade in an unrealistic manner.

TedSmith
03-08-2006, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by reggo:
Sorry for trying to support your point... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

And well you should be.

Woosy
03-08-2006, 07:00 PM
I think Teds point about built in VOIP would be a great idea. Firstly because not everyone wants to install a 3rd party program, and there a few of them out there. Secondly it allows everyone in the server to communicate freely no messing around with alt-tabbing changing lobbies, and it's usualy easy to mute someone who is being a mong.

With the colour of the BDU's as i've said on RvS say is blue on one map, the next map comes on and I'm black i see blue team and instantly think friendly and don't shoot then wonder why they shoot me same happens the otehr way round where I tk friendly, then on some maps the colours are very close like light and dark blue white and cammo white, so i accidently Tk.

It's just remembering I guess, but if it kept the same colour scheme apart from obvious snow maps I wouldn't have any problems. With an actual Merc model I would be, "ah terrorist" and I know my friend is rainbow no mistakes, I don't need to think twice and no more tking or remembering to keep checking my arm *lol*.

Ted I know what you mean about SWAT *lol* I don't play mp anymore, I think people see me as a tk machine I honestly don't mean to. :/

FI_FlimFlam
03-08-2006, 08:06 PM
I've voiced my stance on built in VOIP before. It really hasn't changed. I would be ok for it to be included as long as developing it didn't hinder other critical aspects of the game. Such as a robust dedicated server for example. If the dollars and time can be spent making something that is critical or ironing out other features to be as bug free as possible, I would rather the manpower go there than developing a VOIP feature - especially when there are 2 mature 3rd party solutions that most Teams and Clans use.

Addittionally if they aren't willing to include a fully featured VOIP module (with the appropriate controls for volume, client-side muting, admin server side muting of players, etc) then they shouldn't attempt it IMO.

TedSmith
03-08-2006, 08:48 PM
If they -do- use the Unreal 3 engine, VOIP will already be built in anyways. All they'd have to do is enable it.

MD_Sennet
03-09-2006, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by TedSmith:
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with those people asking to remove the HBS. You may not like it, but it's part of the lore of Rainbow Six, directly from the novel. It MUST be in the game. Not only that it is a very easy item to balance for multiplay, as it was in RavenShield and every R6 game before that. It wasn't cheap, wasn't a "wallhack" lol, and definately wasn't easy to use (which is why majority of players didn't use it). It raises this kind of gameplay, which has become commonplace, up a level. Needs to stay.

Good list Ted. Here's hoping it has an impact.

stm492
03-09-2006, 01:02 AM
14. Model recoil again like in Raven-Shield

As the title says... only this time, don't make it so extreme. Ret should not bloom from firing, ret should bloom from movement of the weapon. If the weapon rises from recoil, the rets should not bloom until the player uses the mouse to compensate (and even then it shouldn't be as huge a bloom/recoil effect as in Raven-Shield). Awesome. although even in previous R6 titles on PC the rets did bloom pretty big. i would still be happy if they used the same exact recoil method.

DreamMarine
03-09-2006, 02:39 AM
One important point concerning "fluent gameplay":

In RvS, when you are walking around in the map you get the feeling as if the geomtries of the objects have very "square edges"... getting you caught again and again (in door frames, at corners, etc.) Sometimes just a tiny edge bars you from getting QUICKLY where you want to go to!

This is even worse, when you are peaked: For example when you slowly move peaked around a corner ("slicing the pie"). If some part of your body hits the door frame you get stuck.

I understand, that this results from the nature of the geometry of the maps. But it would be great when this could be changed to the better.

For example, my body might avoid such little obstacles automatically in some kind of soft adjustment in my movement or stance.

DreamMarine

Woosy
03-09-2006, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by MD_Sennet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TedSmith:
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with those people asking to remove the HBS. You may not like it, but it's part of the lore of Rainbow Six, directly from the novel. It MUST be in the game. Not only that it is a very easy item to balance for multiplay, as it was in RavenShield and every R6 game before that. It wasn't cheap, wasn't a "wallhack" lol, and definately wasn't easy to use (which is why majority of players didn't use it). It raises this kind of gameplay, which has become commonplace, up a level. Needs to stay.

Good list Ted. Here's hoping it has an impact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I play MP and there is a guy on the other side of the wall and my team use HBS and know hes there, all elements of suprise are gone, we know where he is and location, knowing hes there via HBS is like a "wallhack" without HBS it is challenging to clear the rooms. It's like playing Counter-Strike, that has no HBS it's hard to know where someone is and it's tense times.

I know it's a different game but I can only use The Regiment as an example, if there is a camper which there has been, once you chuck flash bangs in, it's not one quick bang its 5 bangs in quick succession, it's a challenge run in and take down the other player this is how it's done.

Which is another thing flash bangs should be powerful on the player for at least 7 seconds, so they're at least useful, then you won't get campers if you room clear properly.

The same happens on Co-oP too *lol* guy wears the HBS like a mask, knows where the terrorists are where is the suprise? There isn't a challenge on the player, he knows where they are.

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-09-2006, 07:49 AM
I dont like the way you argue...

you use what you can as appose to what you should. Searching for loop holes instead of searching for 'wrong comments'. I was goin to respond to each thing but i really cant be bothered now.

First of all You 'can' run while leaned over (you wouldnt but you can). Removing something because:

Quote: We're going for a game that at least TRIES to simulate reality. You show me a soldier leaning over, running and shooting in a combat situation without falling over and MAYBE I'd consider it feasible.

Is wrong. Your thinking too much about removing something and creating new button possibilities when leaving it in is far more logical. You can walk backwards through a shooting field in rvs, doesnt mean your going to...

When i said M203 for 'cqb' use i didnt mean firing it in a small room and surviving, i meant the size of it for manuverability. I actually assumed that the small launcher (BB shower) was an airsoft replica of a real steel weapon but i havnt found it. There are however M4 attached M203's and an M4 ( http://world.guns.ru/assault/as17-e.htm ) is designed to be efficient in cqb environments. What i meant when i said 'there is always a situation': you might be storming small houses then run out into a courtyard where an m203 could come in handy etc. You seem to like your restrictions. One thing i will say, it should be made to kill the user if used close. The grenade launcher in lockdown was ridiculous, it killed enemies who were as close to explosion as the person who fired it but not the person who fired it himself...

If possible, both abilities of grenade use should be available. That response about the grenade was also your usual defensive, competitive one...

The RVS ret system allows you to better your skills for a long time. I have only mastered it with the L85A1, G36, MP5A4 and MK23 pistol. Each weapon fires differently. This is a good thing, the need to gain technique improves the game.

Your worse response was that of the comms subject... When the hell did i say it is not necessary because i wouldnt use it? I dont speak out of bias, i speak out of emotionless logic. If you could make a really good 'communication' system then yeah. by this i mean, a lobby like that of UBI's game lobby (but a good one) with text chat, news and voice comms. This would ensure the community are 'one' instead of some people playing through the game, some on ubi and some on xfire. Make that and it would be cool but i doubt they will. Having open comms where everyone in the server is welcome is not a good idea.

Basically ted, i think you live for this. You enjoy arguing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Your obviously very competitive with your google/categoric/quoted responses. I will let you have the last word in this subject so feel free to quote me and respond once again but i cant be bothered. Bugger, i wrote that much...

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-09-2006, 07:58 AM
PS. Luce, you gonna play RVS tonight? i will jump in your server and play a bit of co-op with you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif x

HBP_Elk
03-09-2006, 08:27 AM
More than one weapon customisation (at least in single player)!

subzero1900
03-09-2006, 08:44 AM
With HBS You dont know alot of things

A. If its a false HB puck (make this better by allowing more of them?)

B. If there is C4 right beside the door

C. If there is a jammer in the room

D. If there is another persion hiding in the jammer's radius

E. If they are looking your way

F. If they are crouched

G. If they are peaking around a corner looking at the door your comming through


....Its all a game of chance...you dont have the specifics with HBS unlike the Motion Sensor

KungFu_CIA
03-09-2006, 09:20 AM
TedSmith:

Your initial post has merit and a lot of interesting ideas.

However, please, argue more appropriately and be more considerate of others when disagreeing and discussing:


Originally posted by TedSmith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by reggo:
Sorry for trying to support your point... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

And well you should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's try to avoid the following responses:


Originally posted by O_SHOGTJK_O:

you use what you can as appose to what you should. Searching for loop holes instead of searching for 'wrong comments'. I was goin to respond to each thing but i really cant be bothered now.


Originally posted by O_SHOGTJK_O:

Basically ted, i think you live for this. You enjoy arguing Smile Your obviously very competitive with your google/categoric/quoted responses.

.....

I am not a Moderator, but Council members have been instructed by Goliath and Geiger to help keep an eye on and maintain this forum due to how out-of-control the Lockdown Forums became.

Don't give us and your fellow community members a reason not to listen to you. This applies to all posters as well.

Everyone needs to check their "e-gos" before they post because in the end, what we want is a good R6, PC-game and a good community to go along with it.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-09-2006, 09:30 AM
Sorry http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-09-2006, 09:31 AM
Sorry ted http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

TedSmith
03-09-2006, 05:50 PM
25. Climbing.

Rogue Spear style, bring it back. Let us climb over small obstacles, through windows, etc. No more of this 2-foot ledge stops the team's progress until we find an appropriate 2-step staircase up it.

TedSmith
03-09-2006, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
TedSmith:

Your initial post has merit and a lot of interesting ideas.

However, please, argue more appropriately and be more considerate of others when disagreeing and discussing:

There was nothing inappropriate at all about my arguments. Last I checked, I was permitted to disagree with people and explain why. I insulted no one and will apologize for nothing that I've said. If you dislike my demeanor, so be it. I'm not here to make friends or be warm, fuzzy and politically correct.


Originally posted by TedSmith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by reggo:
Sorry for trying to support your point... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

And well you should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's called a joke. I thought it was fairly obvious considering I was chastising someone for agreeing with me. Do I need to put a smiley face beside everything I say that isn't entirely serious? That sort of nonsense gets tedious and insults your intelligence as well as my own.


Don't give us and your fellow community members a reason not to listen to you.

Listen or don't. That's your choice. I would think though that being chosen for this council, you would not be foolish enough to dismiss good ideas just because you don't like how they were argued for. As you said yourself, "in the end, what we want is a good R6 PC-game" Prove me right, or prove me wrong. It's your choice, but neither will change how I choose to present myself.

I am aggressive. I am blunt. Neither of those are against the rules, last I checked.

KungFu_CIA
03-09-2006, 06:40 PM
Ted:

I know this is the internet and you don't have to give a damn about anyone on the other end... Even though, we are actual human beings on the other end...

But keep this in mind:

You can use the tough-guy, e-thug approach all you want and call it "telling it like it is", just so you feel UBI hears you, but I will tell you a lot of people WON'T take what you have to say seriously... Which IS what you want, or you wouldn't take the time to post what you did.

As I said, you have some good ideas.

However, I and the others (Council Members; Mods; Geiger; Razz et al.) will not let you abuse this forum, its other members, or turn it into your own personal "blog" and disrespect others simply because you want to. You did this on the Lockdown Forums when people disagreed with you with your little snide remarks (calling people "uneducated kids" and making false assumptions) in a lot of your replies to posts. This is what helped contribute to the decline of the Lockdown forums and this will not happen here.

There is a saying I am sure someone of your wealth of experience is familiar with:

You can get farther with kind word than just a word... Even on the internet.

TedSmith
03-09-2006, 07:13 PM
It's funny you say that, Kung-fu, because I recall you doing the same with your "PC Snob" rhetoric. Is it alright for you to make snide remarks and insult those who disagree with you, then?

Hell, you just called me an e-thug for what? For stating clearly and without insult that I had no intention of apologizing since I had done nothing that was against the rules? That was snide and insulting as well. Did I threaten anyone? Did I insult anyone? I did neither. You on the other hand, did both.

You may not like my demeanor, but that in and of itself is irrelevant. Frankly, I don't like yours most times. Disliking someone is not against the rules any more than disagreeing with someone is.


Originally posted by kimi_:
* Excessive flaming (heated discussion can be cool, personal attacks are not)

DayGlow
03-09-2006, 08:00 PM
k, everyone please step back a little. Thanks.

cre8nhavoc
03-09-2006, 08:45 PM
You may not like my demeanor, but that in and of itself is irrelevant. Frankly, I don't like yours most times. Disliking someone is not against the rules any more than disagreeing with someone is.

In which you are right to disagree, but to make people feel inferior or inadequate to posting to your discussions can be a bit discouraging and disrespectful.


Originally posted by TedSmith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by reggo:
Sorry for trying to support your point... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

And well you should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should be courteous to your fellow posters if you are wanting mature, respective replies.

SODsniper
03-10-2006, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by cre8nhavoc:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You may not like my demeanor, but that in and of itself is irrelevant. Frankly, I don't like yours most times. Disliking someone is not against the rules any more than disagreeing with someone is.

In which you are right to disagree, but to make people feel inferior or inadequate to posting to your discussions can be a bit discouraging and disrespectful.


Originally posted by TedSmith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by reggo:
Sorry for trying to support your point... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

And well you should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should be courteous to your fellow posters if you are wanting mature, respective replies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree 1000% with your post, Cre8...

But it should applied equally. Whether the poster is a Mod, a Council Member or a regular joe.

It needs to be applied equally or it is meaningless.

TedSmith
03-10-2006, 05:24 AM
I guess I -do- need to put smiley faces on any jokes made. Perhaps I'll simply stop attempting to be humorous at all. It's easier that way for all involved.

RAZE_672
03-10-2006, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by TedSmith:
I guess I -do- need to put smiley faces on any jokes made. Perhaps I'll simply stop attempting to be humorous at all. It's easier that way for all involved.

I know what you mean. You're not still angry about that crack about the Queen, are you?

reggo
03-10-2006, 09:27 AM
Another idea to further enhance realism.

It may look as a very small detail and probably most people woudn't care about that, but I'm a little bit tired to always see the same 'blood splatter', the same 'grenade splatter' and the same bunch of sprites for displaying an explosion.

The trick used by programmers is to 'rotate' the blood splatter by a random angle to make it look different from the others, but after some hours of play, the eye is not fooled anymore.

Why not provide 10 'blood splatters' textures, put them in a pool and retrieve them at random (and then rotate them)? Or simply store them in a circular queue and still rotate them on a retrieval? The same thing could apply to 'grenade splatters' and 'explosion sprites' as well.

I'm pretty sure programmers already came with that sort of idea a long time ago and it has probably been discarded for a matter of limited video memory for textures.

But since 256 MB and 512 MB video cards are becoming more and more popular, this shouldn't be that much an issue now?

dave819831983
03-10-2006, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by O_SHOGTUK_O:
There isnt any reason or advantage to in built comms really.

WHAT!!!!

Ofcourse there is an advantage to having built in comms! how many public servers have you been on where people bother to hook into a teamspeak server - not many - thought so.

I am not in a clan but that doesnt mean I dont want to play seriously with team work. The only way you can do that is voice comms.

Also you said that its lame to have voice comms in game because thats what XBOX does. Thats just stupid. I have never owned a console so Im not a fanboy but having a go at something simply because its not as hardcore as using team speak is stupid.

Just like AA the next R6 MUST have voice comms.

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-11-2006, 08:34 AM
OMG... When the hell did i say it would be lame 'because' the xbox uses it? dont be so silly... I said xbox would have to do it that way, consoles are for those who wanna plug and play (plus how u using a 3rd party program with a console). PC allows the user to do things how they want. Some servers have public team speak servers and the ones that dont, dont want them. If you really want to use comms with random players, host a team speak server and tell them to join...

TedSmith
03-11-2006, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by O_SHOGTUK_O:
consoles are for those who wanna plug and play

And again... this is the exact thing that is wrong with your argument. You are citing complexity for the sake of complexity as a good thing on PC. PC games SHOULD be plug and play as well. The fact that it's NOT generally is one of the main reasons that the PC market has been suffering over the last bunch of years.

If YOU want to research and find a 3rd party program that lets you chat with other players, that's an option for you. MOST people don't do that. They just want it to work. That has nothing to do with PC or console, it's about the way things SHOULD be on both platforms. Games and all the options used in gaming should be user-friendly. They shouldn't demand an extra level of knowledge from a player just to be able to communicate effectively with their fellow players.

The catch is simply in making a game easier to use without making it easier to play. We don't want them to dumb down the gameplay and make it easier and we don't want them to remove any depth from the game, but at the same time, it should NOT be a daunting task for a new gamer to pick up a copy and join in.

They shouldn't have to memorize pointlessly complex interface/controls (SWAT 3 comes to mind), they shouldn't have to click through a long series of menus just to get to some actual gameplay (as you did in Rogue Spear). They shouldn't have to search for and download 3rd party programs, then track down a server or worse, host their own just to communicate easily with other players.

PC games MUST become more user-friendly if they're to stand a chance at all against the next-gen consoles. The idea that using a PC -should- be complicated is as outdated as it is ludicrous. Additional 3rd party options SHOULD be available, but they should NOT be required. That way if YOU want to be specific about who you speak to while playing, you have that option without alienating casual gamers by making their experience needlessly more complicated.

Mr_Hooper
03-11-2006, 04:52 PM
STORYLINE, STORYLINE, STORYLINE!!!

some of us nerds like to feel that we're accomplishing something, and not just charging through a series of loosely-knit, largely random levels.

how hard is it to write an interesting storyline, and to make the levels and objectives relevant?

..or you know what? there doesn't even have to follow a storyline at all. the game could just be a bunch of individual missions, as that is typically how things work in the real world; there isn't always some terrorist mastermind bent on world domination. it would at least be preferrable to a horribly written story.

heck, i'll even write out the plot for you if you're having difficulties.

basically, the bio-weapon things has been done to death, and we haven't had a decent storyline since rogue spear.

the game has lost all character.

fires2006
03-11-2006, 10:56 PM
What id like to see is multiple way points in mp.

That is for example. When the game starts you have say 16 players 8 per side. Each 8 man squad can be split into 2, 4 man squads per-side. Each player decides which squad he/she wants to join in your team. Once thats decided there would be 2 respawn points on the map. Now, the terrorist team are inside a buidling and the objective is to eliminate the team inside.

The first team start point could be at the building entrance. The second team's start point could be the back entrance. The terrorist team could also have split teams and are waiting for the rainbows to attack at those points.

This of course could be a server option and could be turned off or on as desired and could be called squad based advers mode or something.

C_Peacemaker
03-11-2006, 11:53 PM
I looked and didnt see this posted already so:

1. Bring back extra ammo..... Why did they take that out?
2. Give us the option for slugs on the shotguns... or dont let us have scopes, kinda pointless don'tcha think?
3. Ditch the 3 part missions.... life isn't like that.
4. Ditch the linear missions.... " repeat "
5. What happened to all the guns.... your supposed to add and increase our options not cut them down.
6. Since when does it take 8 shots from a pistol/rifle to take a door hinge out?
7. What happened to the end round screen..... I want to see how many buillets I shot and actually hit with.... duh
8. Give me back my server options.... and ditch the graphical interface for the servers.....
9. Lastly pay the liscensing fees and use the proper gun names.....

Colt_Peacemaker
Teamspeakbums.com

C_Peacemaker
03-12-2006, 12:04 AM
And lastly I noticed that RS5 is schedueled for Q3 2006..... Can it please come out on time and not a year and a half late? I would really like to burn the "Letdown" disk as soon as possible.....

reggo
03-12-2006, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by C_Peacemaker:
And lastly I noticed that RS5 is schedueled for Q3 2006..... Can it please come out on time and not a year and a half late? I would really like to burn the "Letdown" disk as soon as possible.....


I'd rather prefer a delayed but "finished and without bugs" game, if you know what I mean.

KUF_Kazzuto
03-12-2006, 10:12 AM
Well, congrats on an well done and well mannered thread (almost http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ).
I agree 100% on what Ted listed, unfortunelly it looks alot like the list I posted several time in various forum, redstorm and ubi, since December 2004 taht was completelly ignored by ubi for the developement of lock down (witch I will not buy, never!)
( http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/178107392/m/1591033252 )
A small suggestion to Ted, if I may, is to keep adding new suggested feature to the list @ the beguinning of the post.
I still think it would be a great idea for Ubi to make a well planned poll on witch features we would like. heck i will give them web space for that!(sarcastic mode ON) Only one poll input per person.
Another big factor that all of us keep complaining about is a total lack of official comunicates. At least open a locked stiky where devs tell us what is going on.
Falliure to realize that rs and rvs playrs has grown older and the marketing of the new games aimed @ an arcade type of players is another huge mistake. The fans base of this franchise is not a bf2/joint ops type of player. RS should be tougher to play than an arcade game.
Name wise.... Vegas? Please!!!! who's going to breaf us? Tom Jones? siegfried and roy? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Rainbow Six 5 - Requiem Syndicate has much more appeal. (just off the top of my head)

game engine wise: cryteck looked promising but went nowere. unreal 3?
just my two cents... but i think it's useless.. they never listened and they never will...

Geiger
03-13-2006, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by TedSmith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
TedSmith:

Your initial post has merit and a lot of interesting ideas.

However, please, argue more appropriately and be more considerate of others when disagreeing and discussing:

There was nothing inappropriate at all about my arguments. Last I checked, I was permitted to disagree with people and explain why. I insulted no one and will apologize for nothing that I've said. If you dislike my demeanor, so be it. I'm not here to make friends or be warm, fuzzy and politically correct.


Originally posted by TedSmith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by reggo:
Sorry for trying to support your point... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

And well you should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's called a joke. I thought it was fairly obvious considering I was chastising someone for agreeing with me. Do I need to put a smiley face beside everything I say that isn't entirely serious? That sort of nonsense gets tedious and insults your intelligence as well as my own.


Don't give us and your fellow community members a reason not to listen to you.

Listen or don't. That's your choice. I would think though that being chosen for this council, you would not be foolish enough to dismiss good ideas just because you don't like how they were argued for. As you said yourself, "in the end, what we want is a good R6 PC-game" Prove me right, or prove me wrong. It's your choice, but neither will change how I choose to present myself.

I am aggressive. I am blunt. Neither of those are against the rules, last I checked. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ted,

Anyone can be aggressive, blunt etc etc... It takes no creative imagination to scream your points at people or try and shove them down their throat. It immediately closes many people off to your point and actually tends to arouse ire in many of them.

So... in the interest of keeping discussions open and on track I'm going to recommend that you take a more respectful approach to your posts.

You obviously put a lot of though and passion into what you post, so lets make sure it doesn't go to waste.

tom.hart2
03-16-2006, 07:56 PM
Raven shield 2 - I agree with the op

1) 40 men servers With 5 teams
2) 100 men survival within a huge map. You can only enter the server once every hour and once you die you're booted. When you enter the server you spawn at a randon location straight away. One round would last an hour. You can also create teams.
3) knife kills for silence
4) Most the things the op wrote
5) R S for the first letters in the title
6) A choice of clothing. Stealth (sound wise) or armour
7) No respawns.
8) rvs recoil/ rets
9) Damage to walls/floor/everything.
10) planning
11) non liniar maps