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View Full Version : U-Boot Type XXI in Detail - "Wilhelm Bauer"



JavDog
11-17-2006, 09:56 PM
Gents, I need advice from seasoned Capts. or ASDIC operators on how to evade or beat a surface ship using ASDIC pings on my U-boat.

It would really help if someone could fill me in on it's limitations in game. What exactly can they "see" when a ping goes out? Range? Depth?

Any info will help, thanks!

JavDog
11-17-2006, 09:56 PM
Gents, I need advice from seasoned Capts. or ASDIC operators on how to evade or beat a surface ship using ASDIC pings on my U-boat.

It would really help if someone could fill me in on it's limitations in game. What exactly can they "see" when a ping goes out? Range? Depth?

Any info will help, thanks!

edjcox
11-17-2006, 11:14 PM
WWII ASDIC was fical at best but improved throughout the war.

Range yes if the get a good reflection from you, azimuth again yes if the get a good reflections. Speed yes, if successive pings are obtained. Diving and surfacing can be discerned by a good operator especially if the surface platform is stationary.

So what to do.

Know your dept under keel. go to 1 (slow speed) and hit Z for silent running (remeber no damage contro or torpedoes will be loaded if it is on)

Try to maintain a minimal attitude woards the detroyer. Never run from it as the props will definately give you away.

Turn as you are diving and widen your distance.

Keep as deep as possible. Remeber as short red excursion may be survivable a long one not. Use your thrust to drivt and engage only power only when drifiting to 0 speed. If they have you then run fastand hard and cut to 1 and change course immediatly reinvoking "Z".

Sometimes you can all stop and they'll go crazy but not find you. Persistence is on their side after all they have fresh air.

Take advantage of ladder torpedoes that yuo launched and missed their target. Running into an area where torpedoes are cutting about tends to deter destroyers, soetime they will run into one as well.

Good luck

Bootsmann0815
11-18-2006, 04:26 AM
Running deep and sneaking away as described by edjcox works throughout the war. In early war (before the invention of radar) you have another option if you are still outside the range of visibility: surface and run at high speed. ASDIC doesn't work if you are surfaced. And since ASDIC has an effective range of about 5-7km but visibility is often less than that, you've got a chance. In particular it's useful to think of this before ASDIC has found you. As in real life, early-war attacks against convoys are often best conducted from the surface, at night (shooting distance by UZO around 2,000-2,500m) or even less in bad weather. This procedure was known as "using the vertical" (hence see my signature, I do it a lot) and is also perfectly demonstrated in the SH3 intro video (though in the video it's still too much daylight when the attack takes place).

But remember that this ceases to work once the Allies got Radar, which is almost impossible to evade, and you are better off trying to dodge ASDIC while running submerged. N.B. early war ASDIC dopes not give the enemy accurate depth information.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Use the vertical!

demigod151
11-18-2006, 05:24 AM
I'm also assuming that when you are being chased, going away from the convoy is a good tactic as eventually the destroyers will have to break off to go back and protect the ships?

When there are depth charges in the water, you have nothing to lose really, may as well punch it at flank to get a burst of speed and then drop back to slow ahead.

At night the option of a flank speed withdrawl on the surface is a good one, but during the day time, its quite risky in my opinion as the destroyers will chase you and gun you.

But what fool would try to attack a convoy in broad daylight? (me!) LOL<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________________
Proud captain of U-95!
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Mittelwaechter
11-18-2006, 06:27 AM
For me it works perfectly to stay at periscope depth and go "stealthy":
silent running, low rpm, small ASDIC silouette by showing my six - it makes me move away too.

Periscope depth gives me a better impression of what happens compared to my tumb sonaroperator.

Running one third for standard I never crashdive but slip beneath the waves - dependant on distance without powering up the engines. I turn to show my six and try to keep the DD within 160 to 200 in periscope. It's easy because they run in circles to search for me. Whenever they start to show me their stern I power up to gain some speed but fall back to "slow" when the AOB turns bad again. Neither Hydrophones nor ASDIC "listen" in their +/- 180?? sector.

Another advantages is they have to face my stern tube after detecting me. I release a bold and try to keep it between the DD and me. Often it fools them but if they stay on track I send them greetings from tube 5. If my warm welcome fails I let them close in and pass me longside. Simply turn 15 degrees out for some seconds and turn back on parallelcourse again.
Most DDs have DC-racks to cover 180?? plus 90?? and 270?? sectors. The 180??'s simply roll overbord and will line up parallel to your boat. The 90??/270??'s are shot out and get thrown over you.
Their DC-settings try to avoid own damage - they never drop at 12 m depth! But have a damage controll team at hand.
Once they've passed me over I observe wich direction they turn to and either head after to shoot a bow torpedo or power up, try to stay as long as possible at their six and slowly turn to opposite direction to start my tactics again.

Give it a try.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">


http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5169/bannersscenteredhaveyounl3.jpg

There is no safe distance

lecek
11-18-2006, 10:55 AM
Like most posters I go deep. I push the max depth of the sub. Unfortunately the crush depth isn't at all random and once you know it for a sub you can push it reliably over and over. In a real sub, you don't know for sure if the sub can handle that depth even if you have been there before.

Anyway..

Go as deep as you can/dare, I stay out of shallow water as much as possible.

When you are trying to evade keep your back end aimed at them as much as possible and travel at slow in silent running mode. If they detect you, you have several tactics. I personally turn perpendicular to them at slow speed. When the pings stop, they are too close and are on their final attack run. I go to flank at this point and run at flank just long enough to be sure I am clear of the DC's. If you run to long they will just detect you right away again.

The DD's will look for you as long as their last contact was less then 15 minutes ago. Running at flank for too long will not help you get away from the DC's and it will reset the DD's counter back to 15.

Decoys: Decoys are tricky. Your sonar guy can't tell if the DD is tracking you or your decoy. So if your decoy is detected, he will say that "WE" have been detected. You can't always tell which one is in the hot seat. For example if you can hear a DD pass right over you and you hear his engines change to a different speed just as your guy says you have been detected, that is a time to worry.

However, if you get the message "we are being pinged" and you don't hear any solid pings, you can know it is your decoy and not you.

Here is the problem in a nutshell. In either case you can sometimes know it is your decoy, and the rest of the time you cannot know for sure which. Even if you hear loud pings, it doesn't mean he has you. If you go to flank to dodge a DC attack that isn't coming, all you do is give the DD's another chance to get contact from you. It is a good idea to know how long your decoys last, if you look at the screen where you buy them, it gives you a range. Start the stopwatch in one of the scopes. That way you can keep track of whether there is still a decoy to be detected.

If you have gotten away at this point, DO NOT lay another decoy. Decoys attract attention, that is what they do, only use them when you know you have been detected. It is best to lay them while you are on the way down to the deep, say at 130 meters.

Regarding the post by edjcox: "Remeber as short red excursion may be survivable a long one not." &lt;- I am not sure what he is referring to. If he is talking about the red mark on the depth gauge, then he is wrong. You can go to your subs max depth forever and not take damage. It is possible he tried to dive deeper then the red mark in a type II or something, they don't have that deep a crush depth. If you are in any other type of sub and are undamaged you should push 200 meters. It isn't hard to look up the exact depths of the various subs but I won't repeat them here in case you don't want to know for sure.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

100K Club Member

demigod151
11-18-2006, 12:04 PM
I attacked my first every convoy today, I thought I would share with you what all happened.

It was broad daylight, I charged in on the surface at flank, then when I noticed my little detection meter changing, I dived to periscope depth and ran at flank under water there, then when they began detecting me I slowed down gradually till I was on a creep towards the convoy. They didn't know I was coming, by taking this in stages, I was approaching the convoy side on from the south. I got within about 1500m lined up for some torpedo action, fired off my T1's set at full speed. I did miss two, and one was a dud. The others all slammed into their targets.

After firing off my load and the stern tube. two ships sank instantly after a double shot each, but a medium tanker and a big C3 were left crippled and afloat. The C3 absorbed 3 torpedo hits and still didn't sink!! I was hanging about waiting for the destroyers and the rest of the merchants to carry on their way, eventually they did. One destroyer came back to hunt for me, but after a few random depthchargings left the area.

Thinking the coast was clear, I surfaced U-95 and began a dash towards the crippled tanker recharging my batteries as I went. I gunned the tanker using the Deck Gun, after two torpedo hits, I didn't need to gun it for very long. The tanker blew up and sank in a great big ball of fire. 3 ships sunk!

So now I turned to go and do the same to the crippled C3, began my charge back at flank still charging batteries and renewing air in the sub. WO spots a warship. I has a peek through the Uzo. V&W destroyer. I slow down to ahead slow and continue to creep back on the surface, keeping my eyes fixed on the destroyer, I noticed he was turning towards us, the detection meter still read green, Taking no chances, I decided to dive to 25m and run at ahead slow. I continued on course back towards the crippled C3.

Destroyer runs round pinging and dropping depth charges, he knows I am still in the area somewhere. Undeterred I held my course and carried on silent running and slow ahead. Destroyer seemingly detected me but a quick hard to port puts us out of the way, then rudder midships and its carry on as normal, so as we are going along, I switch to outside view, depth charges dropping down next to us, obviously our destroyer friend thinks we were a bit deeper than 25m, they looked to be exploding round about 50m, quite a way under us, after that being the closest call so far, the undamaged and seemingly undetected U-95 continues towards the C3.

We get near to the C3, and I bring us up to periscop depth, then slowing to 1 knot, I position U-95 next to the crippled C3 stop the engines and position her staionary and wait. Activate time compression. Destroyer charges about still depth charging, but we are hiding next to the broken ship. He can't find me. Eventually he gives up and goes, when he gets far enough away, start engines, ahead slow, and then we went away from the ship, turned to bring us along side, I surface and finish the C3 off with the Deck Gun, surprisingly, the tough old tub absorbed quite a few HE shells before it would oblige and sink!

After sinking, ahead standard, recharge mode, and leave the area. Mr Destroyer again comes back. Having got new air, more power. I decided to dive back down to 25m at ahead slow. The destroyer does not find me, and I am now en route back to Brest in France because I am completely out of torpedos, but the tonnage figure stands now at 30,000 tons, so I think its safe to say I should be ok for renown, and I even patrolled my assigned grid into the bargain.

Its dark now, I'm running on the surface, with recharged batteries, and full compressed air and full oxygen levels, so I'm ready for the next emergency. All systems operational, and Hull integrity 100%.

I'll take a screen grab of the log this has been a good patrol, nearly 30,000 tons sunk, and two airplanes shot down its not a bad start. U-95 is officially inducted into "the happy time" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________________
Proud captain of U-95!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/Spider-Hulk/SH3/Lonewolf2.jpg

Bootsmann0815
11-18-2006, 02:55 PM
Very gutsy performance, demigod! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

But remember running about on the surface was only supposed to be a night trick. Generally you'll be safer when attacking convoys at night.

As for the returning DD, wait with mopping up damaged ships until all undamaged merchants and all escorts are at least 40 km away (you'll have lost all hydrophone cuntact by then; wait another hout after loss of last hydrophone contact. But stay within 20km or so of the damaged ships throughout that waiting time - if you don't, they will automatically repair themselves and go on their way.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Use the vertical!

demigod151
11-18-2006, 03:29 PM
Well, I took some screens of the log to prove my efforts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Another 25,000 tons and I will be in the 100k club. I love this game!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/Spider-Hulk/SH3/log1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/Spider-Hulk/SH3/log2.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________________
Proud captain of U-95!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/Spider-Hulk/SH3/Lonewolf2.jpg

mwestman
11-19-2006, 07:47 PM
Take her down. . . Take her deep . . .
Take her where . . . The big fish sleep . . .

JavDog
11-20-2006, 11:48 AM
Thanks Kaleuns.

All of your advice has worked and now I feel I have a much better operational understanding of the enemies capabilities.

All day yesterday I decided to test my luck and knowledge and took-on the Gibralter mission into the Med.

It was a harrowing experience, to say the least.
I pushed both my Boat and crew to their limits and learned some pretty painful lessons along the way. It has been awhile since I really devoted time to really sink my teeth into a mission without stopping, and the reward was something I had forgotten. For 6 hours (using TC at certain legs) I played a game of hide and seek with about 4 different classes of warships trying to make my way thru. I made an early mistake by under estimating the skill of the allied blockade. I brazenly (and foolishly) ran flank speed toward the Strait under darkness even though I could see the smoke plumes of ships in the distance.

I was spotted and immediately submerged, but it was as if reinforcements were already called to my position. For the next 3 hours, I had to zig zag my ship to evade the armada on patrol. Taking a cue from the capt in Das Boot, I headed toward the african coast to ride along the shore to eventually creep my way thru.

I eventually make it thru by morning the next day, but my batteries had 20% left in them and my CO2 levels are 75% towards the orange. I spot, what looks like a shipping port, and because on the map it is green, not red, I assume it is a neutral or friendly port. Somewhere I can recharge,refuel and re- oxygenate, I presume wrongly.
As I limp into the dock I see the band playing, people, waving, german uniforms....so I assume it is safe. As soon as I surface, I begin taking fire. Ships begin to converge on the port and I'm getting fire from other ships docked and see the area where I came from, filled with Torpedo boats racing towards me. I drop to the the sea bed but its too shallow! My conning tower is sticking up from the water giving a perfect stationary target. I think to myself "I don't know how I'm gonna get out of this one."

Give the order full reverse. And drag the ship along the sea floor at about 1 kts untill I can get to deeper water and submerge the blasted conning tower. I do try to take out a dd (making sure not to hit it when it's right behind me, so that I don't seal my own coffin). Torpedo missed sir. Blasted!
Crew is exhausted, batteries are crapping out, I have damage and flooding in almost all compartments and because I'm in reverse, no matter what orders I give for depth the front planes seem to be pushing the nose of the Boat down dragging on the shallow floor.

Miraculously, Some of the Spanish trollers and freighters were in the line of fire for the Warships. Their Vollies were hitting civilians on the dock, on ships, and their own alike! The port was a huge inferno, with ships sinking and Dock buildings ablaze. I then spotted what appeared to be some spanish ships firing back at the allied patrol boats. So a battle is being fought that I couldn't help feeling I caused. as I am still creeping in reverse with hulks sinking all around me I am finally able to manuever, turn and get out of that harbor. ASDIC pings all the way out. I believe that skidding along the sea floor at 1 to 2 kts really got them off my trail. I limp along at 2 kts to CH74, my target area, and am finally able to surface in the still of night with batteries under 10% left. Co2 in the orange, and oxygen around 30%. Got everyone rested up, all damaged fixed and all external stores moved to inside the boat. The rest of the mission went great with 2 ships sunk on the way to La spaziel, but you all know how that goes....I arrived at our port a little older and wiser. Shut down the 'puter and had a good nights rest with pleasant dreams of the mission.

Thanks again guys!

Minoos
11-20-2006, 12:41 PM
Just found a link with good pictures of the "Wilhelm Bauer". Enjoy the visit.

Link to article and pictures (http://ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2003/11/detail_uboot_xxi.htm)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7010/u46progressik8.jpg

Minoos
11-20-2006, 12:41 PM
Just found a link with good pictures of the "Wilhelm Bauer". Enjoy the visit.

Link to article and pictures (http://ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2003/11/detail_uboot_xxi.htm)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7010/u46progressik8.jpg

Realjambo
11-20-2006, 02:31 PM
Thanks Minoos - I've put that in my U-Boat bookmarks. Thanks for sharing!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/posted-sig.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/november-ssc.jpg

Michiel_88
11-20-2006, 02:40 PM
Thanks, a great site indeed.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q121/Michiel_88/signature.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/michieldeclercq/entered.jpg

Bootsmann0815
11-20-2006, 05:12 PM
Spanish Neutrality is not always as neutral as it is supposed to be....

Sidi Ifni example (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/4681030994?r=4681030994#4681030994)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Use the vertical!

Celeon999
11-21-2006, 06:08 AM
Wilhelm Bauer when it was still in action with the old Bundesmarine

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/2946/wbauer0jv4.jpg
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/2340/wb1984ai7.jpg

Raising of the U-2540/Wilhem Bauer after the war


http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/5466/wbauerbergqn0.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7347/germanyf2t11x2ef.gif (http://imageshack.us) http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/582/banner016uy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/776/banner024mg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/8516/banner033kc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/349/eecc4f2bf.gif (http://imageshack.us)
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
Why i have painted my plane red ? It would be unfair if they couldnt recognize that it is me who they are up against.
Everytime i shoot down a brit my hunting instinct is satisfied for another 15 minutes.

The Red Baron - Freiherr Manfred von Richthofen

GerritJ9
11-22-2006, 03:03 AM
The article got one thing wrong- The type XXI wasn't the first submarine type to be built with underwater performance in mind. That honour belongs to the British "R" class of WW1. They were intended to be U-Boot hunter-killers, but came too late to make a contribution against their opponents. The Royal Navy regarded the class as freaks and further development of the concept of high underwater speed was abandoned. The schnorchel was, of course, unknown at that time- this idea was developed by the Royal Netherlands Navy in the 1930s! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

The KNIL is dead. Long live the KNIL!

1.JaVA_Hornet
11-22-2006, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GerritJ9:
The article got one thing wrong- The type XXI wasn't the first submarine type to be built with underwater performance in mind. That honour belongs to the British "R" class of WW1. They were intended to be U-Boot hunter-killers, but came too late to make a contribution against their opponents. The Royal Navy regarded the class as freaks and further development of the concept of high underwater speed was abandoned. The schnorchel was, of course, unknown at that time- this idea was developed by the Royal Netherlands Navy in the 1930s! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That`s right Gerrit!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/hornetsting/javadix.jpg

Jose.MaC
11-22-2006, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bootsmann0815:
Spanish Neutrality is not always as neutral as it is supposed to be....

Sidi Ifni example (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/4681030994?r=4681030994#4681030994) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Blue Division is watching you... :P

JavDog
11-22-2006, 09:09 AM
Just doing a prelim (test) upload of my entires for the Dec. Screenshot contest...All images composed with a SH3 dvd install, patched, and THE Grey Wolves Mod on top. 4X AA with temporal AA checked. 8X anisotropic filtering. Mipmap detail on high quality powered by an X850. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thompson! Uns Thompson!
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Searching
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Predator
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Longbeach
http://home.comcast.net/~a.madrid/longbeach.bmp

No witnesses
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Glide
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StarryNight
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U-96
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