PDA

View Full Version : Does the MK108 make the FW190A8 into a FW190A8/R8?



lechiffre
11-17-2006, 06:48 AM
I was wondering if I could get an answer here to what is probably a frequently repeated query which is: Does the use of the MK108 cannon automatically confer additional armour protection to the FW-190 A-8 within IL2FB/PF? ie does it then become a true 'Ramjaeger'. I've flown the sample mission against the B17's several times and came away with holed fuel tanks, engine damage etc but nothing worse(yet!) What I've learned so far on the subject I picked up from Alfred Price's superb book on the Focke Wulf, which I found at a local library soon after playing the mission for the first time(I'm now on to the Spitfire story which is going to cost me because its overdue. but I'm not ready to give it back yet!) I've also seen references to the A8/R8 'Ramjaeger' in the 'View Objects' section of IL2/FB. I had no idea that the B17 was so well protected from fighters that the Luftwaffe had to go back to the drawing board and develop a customised strategy to tackle it. Incidentally I think the IL2 series is chillingly convincing and awesomely detailed. Clearly a work of dedication and talent. I'm looking forward to a little on-line flying when I can find the time to hone my skills some.

lechiffre
11-17-2006, 06:48 AM
I was wondering if I could get an answer here to what is probably a frequently repeated query which is: Does the use of the MK108 cannon automatically confer additional armour protection to the FW-190 A-8 within IL2FB/PF? ie does it then become a true 'Ramjaeger'. I've flown the sample mission against the B17's several times and came away with holed fuel tanks, engine damage etc but nothing worse(yet!) What I've learned so far on the subject I picked up from Alfred Price's superb book on the Focke Wulf, which I found at a local library soon after playing the mission for the first time(I'm now on to the Spitfire story which is going to cost me because its overdue. but I'm not ready to give it back yet!) I've also seen references to the A8/R8 'Ramjaeger' in the 'View Objects' section of IL2/FB. I had no idea that the B17 was so well protected from fighters that the Luftwaffe had to go back to the drawing board and develop a customised strategy to tackle it. Incidentally I think the IL2 series is chillingly convincing and awesomely detailed. Clearly a work of dedication and talent. I'm looking forward to a little on-line flying when I can find the time to hone my skills some.

Maggi_4
11-17-2006, 11:15 AM
Hello
No, it does not give you plus armour. As you can see even the the outer cannons long as they would be MG151/20s, but thats only a graphical bughttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
The Fw190F8 has plus armour on paper, but you can only experience that in slower speed, it does not protect you from anything. I mean its armoured like an Anton, and slow as an Fhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

V.4_Maggi

3.JG51_BigBear
11-17-2006, 01:14 PM
What's funny is that the standard A8 we have in game seems to have performance closer to the real life A8/R8 than a standard fighter version of the A8 which would indicated that all A8 models in game have the extra armour...but of course they don't.

JG53Frankyboy
11-17-2006, 03:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lechiffre:
I was wondering if I could get an answer here to what is probably a frequently repeated query which is: Does the use of the MK108 cannon automatically confer additional armour protection to the FW-190 A-8 within IL2FB/PF? ie does it then become a true 'Ramjaeger'. I've flown the sample mission against the B17's several times and came away with holed fuel tanks, engine damage etc but nothing worse(yet!) What I've learned so far on the subject I picked up from Alfred Price's superb book on the Focke Wulf, which I found at a local library soon after playing the mission for the first time(I'm now on to the Spitfire story which is going to cost me because its overdue. but I'm not ready to give it back yet!) I've also seen references to the A8/R8 'Ramjaeger' in the 'View Objects' section of IL2/FB. I had no idea that the B17 was so well protected from fighters that the Luftwaffe had to go back to the drawing board and develop a customised strategy to tackle it. Incidentally I think the IL2 series is chillingly convincing and awesomely detailed. Clearly a work of dedication and talent. I'm looking forward to a little on-line flying when I can find the time to hone my skills some. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, the MK108 armed Fw190As are Fw190A-8/R2, -9/R2 as the armament screen claimes it. no aditional armour protection...........

Jaws2002
11-17-2006, 03:18 PM
The R8 designation only brings the 30mm Mk108's. The extra armor + Mk-108's came with the R2 designation.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/Shot1.jpg

TIR 4 Pro -$25 Off- From Forgotten Assassins (http://trackir.naturalpoint.com/forgottenassassins/)


Hunter 82's Uber PC Component Shop (http://www.magnum-pc.com/)

JG53Frankyboy
11-17-2006, 05:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:
The R8 designation only brings the 30mm Mk108's. The extra armor + Mk-108's came with the R2 designation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

than you have other books than me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
mine are saying:
R2 and R12 = MK108 armament
R8 = "Sturmbock" , additional armour and MK108 (in the most cases)

Kettenhunde
11-18-2006, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The extra armor + Mk-108's came with the R2 designation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I can shed some light on this.

According to Focke Wulf, GmbH, the very first Sturmflugzeugen were FW-190A8/R2's modified with extra armor. The Luftwaffe did not change the designation on their books. This led to the initial confusion on the type designation.

Focke Wulf came back and clarified the designation as an FW-190A8/R8.

The FW-190A8/R2 is the normal fighter variant mounting Mk-108's. The installation of the Mk108 includes magazine armor for the weapons. 30mm Minegeschoss packs a considerable amount of explosive and it only makes sense to protect it from sympathetic detonation. There was also a shortage of the magazine armor and many FW190A8/R8's and FW-190A8/R2???s were delivered without it. This adds to the post war confusion about the correct designation as well.

Focke Wulf published a document entitled "Sturmflugzeugen" that clearly defines the FW-190A8/R2 as the normal fighter variant with Mk108 flugelwaffen. When the additional armor from the R7 kit is added the type is redesignated an FW-190A8/R8.

All the best,

Crumpp<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Support the White 1 Foundation!

The White 1 Foundation was started to facilitate the museum quality conservation, display, study, restoration, and operation of the Focke Wulf FW 190 F8, known by its WWII call sign, White 1. In doing so, we are preserving parts of World history in a living memorial to all people who lost their lives in the war. We are preserving an integral part of great aerial battles which once filled the skies.

Of some, parts of this aircraft are the only traces which remain.

http://www.white1foundation.org/

JG54_Lukas
11-18-2006, 09:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Maggi_4:
The Fw190F8 has plus armor on paper, but you can only experience that in slower speed, it does not protect you from anything. I mean its armored like an Anton, and slow as an Fhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The F-8 had the exact same armor as the A-8, as the designers felt the extra armor wasn't needed to protect the plane and pilot from ground fire.

Jaws2002
11-19-2006, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The extra armor + Mk-108's came with the R2 designation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I can shed some light on this.

According to Focke Wulf, GmbH, the very first Sturmflugzeugen were FW-190A8/R2's modified with extra armor. The Luftwaffe did not change the designation on their books. This led to the initial confusion on the type designation.

Focke Wulf came back and clarified the designation as an FW-190A8/R8.

The FW-190A8/R2 is the normal fighter variant mounting Mk-108's. The installation of the Mk108 includes magazine armor for the weapons. 30mm Minegeschoss packs a considerable amount of explosive and it only makes sense to protect it from sympathetic detonation. There was also a shortage of the magazine armor and many FW190A8/R8's and FW-190A8/R2???s were delivered without it. This adds to the post war confusion about the correct designation as well.

Focke Wulf published a document entitled "Sturmflugzeugen" that clearly defines the FW-190A8/R2 as the normal fighter variant with Mk108 flugelwaffen. When the additional armor from the R7 kit is added the type is redesignated an FW-190A8/R8.

All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Crumpp.
I got it al wrong. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/Shot1.jpg

TIR 4 Pro -$25 Off- From Forgotten Assassins (http://trackir.naturalpoint.com/forgottenassassins/)


Hunter 82's Uber PC Component Shop (http://www.magnum-pc.com/)

Kettenhunde
11-19-2006, 07:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I got it al wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is just convoluted and confusing history is all.

It was not my intention to prove you wrong. In fact from what I have read of your post's you are very knowledgeable on the design. Simply passing on what I have learned in researching the history of the aircraft for the Foundation and my book.

All the best,

Crumpp<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Support the White 1 Foundation!

The White 1 Foundation was started to facilitate the museum quality conservation, display, study, restoration, and operation of the Focke Wulf FW 190 F8, known by its WWII call sign, White 1. In doing so, we are preserving parts of World history in a living memorial to all people who lost their lives in the war. We are preserving an integral part of great aerial battles which once filled the skies.

Of some, parts of this aircraft are the only traces which remain.

http://www.white1foundation.org/

Ruy Horta
11-20-2006, 02:45 AM
Sturmstaffel 1
Reich Defense 1943-1944 The War Diary
Eric Mombeek
Robert Forsyth
Eddie J. Creek
Classic Publications, 1999

Nice affordable publication which seems to cover the subject pretty well, incl. facsimile documents.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
Ruy Horta

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7748/signaturecommunismih6.png

fighter_966
11-20-2006, 03:13 AM
That R in designation means conversion .Germans had two kind of conversions for aeroplanes Field conversion or Factory conversion so that also adds confusion about exact Mark of Fw190 or bf109 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

lechiffre
11-21-2006, 01:35 PM
I see. So to sum up it seems that for the purposes of the game the only difference is that of the armament itself, not the level of protection afforded to aircraft from the B17s' turrets. Maybe an 'authentic' result was achieved by the skill levels set for the B17s. I've had a look at them and overall they seem to work out about average. The skill levels for the fighter escorts are definitely weighted in favour of the 'blues'. I did notice that the MK108 was effective (on one occasion) at a distance of about 70m. I seem to remember reading that the cannon had very limited range (or more precisely, accuracy), hence the reason the Sturmgruppe pilots had to delay firing until very close to their quarries. I must say I never thought of comparing the flight characteristics of a FW190 so equipped with a 'standard' version to see if there was any evidence of a variation in weight.

StG2_Schlachter
11-21-2006, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fighter_966:
That R in designation means conversion .Germans had two kind of conversions for aeroplanes Field conversion or Factory conversion so that also adds confusion about exact Mark of Fw190 or bf109 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct. R stands for R??stsatz and U stands for Umr??stsatz. The former meant permanent modification, just after leaving the factory.
The latter were field conversion kits that could be installed with minimal effort at airfields.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.stg2immelmann.de/pics/stg2.jpg

JG54_Lukas
11-21-2006, 05:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:

Correct. R stands for R??stsatz and U stands for Umr??stsatz. The former meant permanent modification, just after leaving the factory.
The latter were field conversion kits that could be installed with minimal effort at airfields. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You got it in reverse. R mods were field conversions, while U mods were factory conversions.

Kettenhunde
11-21-2006, 05:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">R??stsatz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a third "R" designation, R??stzustand.

The FW190A8/R8 is not a field conversion. It was factory installed modification refered too as a R??stzustand and replaced the Umr??stsatz designation.

R??stsatz came as kits with the intention that it could be added in the field. R??stzustand kits had to be put on by the factory not the Geschwaders.

Good example is the tropical variants are R??stzustand.

As with anything Luftwaffe though this is not set in stone. As I understand it, some R??stsatz kits could only be installed by the factory even though the original intention was a field modification.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I did notice that the MK108 was effective (on one occasion) at a distance of about 70m. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that range is more dependant upon the weapon mount location and not the weapon itself.

Here is the sighting matrix for the Mk108:

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1164156986_ta152schusswaffenanlage.jpg

A 400 meter point blank zero is not bad range for air to air combat.

All the best,

Crumpp<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Support the White 1 Foundation!

The White 1 Foundation was started to facilitate the museum quality conservation, display, study, restoration, and operation of the Focke Wulf FW 190 F8, known by its WWII call sign, White 1. In doing so, we are preserving parts of World history in a living memorial to all people who lost their lives in the war. We are preserving an integral part of great aerial battles which once filled the skies.

Of some, parts of this aircraft are the only traces which remain.

http://www.white1foundation.org/

lechiffre
11-29-2006, 12:16 PM
Gulp! Thanks for the detailed chart Crumpp. It's already made a difference to my marksmanship. I now spend so much time consulting it prior to firing that I get shot to peices before loosing a single shot. Cheers!