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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:00 AM
I'm not real fond of the speed bar. I love the beautifully modeled gauges in this game and enjoy learning how to read them. What I've noticed is that of all the AC the German ones have by-far the best layout. American Birds take a distant second with the Brits following closely behind that, and the VVS coming in twelfth, behind bicycles and row-boats.

Ever noticed that the clock in the LW panels has a second hand? That's perfect for flying the circuit. The gauges are large, intuitive and well placed. You can even see the evolution as the latter model 109's feature the Turn-Slip Front and center, just below the reticule; exactly where it needs to be to insure proper aiming.

I just thought I'd point out that this is an often overlooked advantage the LW AC had. The Yak's may be able to turn better, but let's see them outturn a mountain in zero visibility. If you fly into a cloud in a Yak while flying at an odd attitude, you'll be surprised how you fly out. Inverted, and screaming toward the ground more often than not. I don't care that the VVS compasses are hidden; it's not like you could read them anyway. The only AC the VVS had w/ sufficient instrumentation is the IL2.


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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:00 AM
I'm not real fond of the speed bar. I love the beautifully modeled gauges in this game and enjoy learning how to read them. What I've noticed is that of all the AC the German ones have by-far the best layout. American Birds take a distant second with the Brits following closely behind that, and the VVS coming in twelfth, behind bicycles and row-boats.

Ever noticed that the clock in the LW panels has a second hand? That's perfect for flying the circuit. The gauges are large, intuitive and well placed. You can even see the evolution as the latter model 109's feature the Turn-Slip Front and center, just below the reticule; exactly where it needs to be to insure proper aiming.

I just thought I'd point out that this is an often overlooked advantage the LW AC had. The Yak's may be able to turn better, but let's see them outturn a mountain in zero visibility. If you fly into a cloud in a Yak while flying at an odd attitude, you'll be surprised how you fly out. Inverted, and screaming toward the ground more often than not. I don't care that the VVS compasses are hidden; it's not like you could read them anyway. The only AC the VVS had w/ sufficient instrumentation is the IL2.


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Buzz_25th
10-17-2003, 09:08 AM
I agree the late 109's have the best gauge layout. Very easy to read. The P-47 is the worse. I have to zoom in to read anything.

I'm praying the P-51 will be good.

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:14 AM
yea, the jug layout is bad, but at least the gauges are present. W/ the American Gauges, I memorize the positions of the needles; like at take off speed the speedometer is pointing to 5 o'clock. That way you don't have to see the numbers.


Buzz_25th wrote:
- I agree the late 109's have the best gauge layout.
- Very easy to read. The P-47 is the worse. I have to
- zoom in to read anything.
-
-



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Buzz_25th
10-17-2003, 09:17 AM
That's a classic expression from Scott. I crack up everytime I see it.

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:17 AM
Agreed. It's much more fun to read the gauges than to use the bar. It really gets you to know your plane. Then there are some Russian planes with hidden and unreadable gauges, which are hard to fly without the bar...

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:19 AM
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Buzz_25th wrote:
- That's a classic expression from Scott. I crack up
- everytime I see it.


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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:04 AM
And then there are all these American birds. I couldn't convert miles to kilometers to save my life.
And don't even get me started on the foreign birds like the P.11... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

McCallaway wrote:
- Agreed. It's much more fun to read the gauges than
- to use the bar. It really gets you to know your
- plane. Then there are some Russian planes with
- hidden and unreadable gauges, which are hard to fly
- without the bar...
-
- <center>
-
- <img
- src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/slow-gold/florent/sig
- nature.jpg" border=1>



- - - - - - - - - - - - -
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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:32 PM
Hear hear Buzz.......not only are they hard to read but jsut plain seeing them in that dark cockpit without lights turned on is a pain.

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Hawgdog
10-17-2003, 02:41 PM
georgeo76 wrote:
- , behind bicycles and
- row-boats.


Yeah, first time I realized the clock in a 109 was keeping time with the game startled me. Dig those German gauges, VDO?
LOL, I was trying different planes in Ivans server last night and one of those Russian planes was beyond terrible. if it weren't for speedbar, it would be over

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:47 PM
I'm transitioning to the P-40E and have to say: I love the guages. The layout could be a bit better, but at least one can see all the important stuff at default view, unlike some birds that require zooming in/out to find specific guages.

I also like the 41 LaGG guage layout.

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:49 PM
Bf109 has a great layout. The only improvement would have been to install the artificial horizon from the FW190.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:03 PM
The p51D has a great layout IMHO

but the biggest problem i have is the game rendering etc. Very few VVS gauges are readable at a quick glance on my system. I don't think this would be so bad in real life tho.

some pits i like just cause a simple look down & zoom shows the gauge or gauges i want to see. Im thinking of giving track ir another chance just to be able to more easily read my instruments...

oh so little time & so much to do...

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:27 PM
Yes, the 109s are the best for flying sans speedbar. The P-40s layout is pretty good too. The Hurri would be OK too if it wasn't for where the compass is located. It's down low and the spade grip is right in front of it.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:34 PM
if gauges worked and were visible in all aircraft I would turn off speedbar.

However, not all gauges are visible, namely the compass.

Make the compass visible, or provide a compass (why they never provided a key that brought up a little compass is beyond me).

(Aren't aircraft like the p40 - the altitude gauge moves but the counter doesn't work?)




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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:11 PM
Right.
If you have decent PC and TrackIR, there's no reason to use speedbar. Reading gauge is real fun.

Moreover, we wouldn't see La doing endless 300km turn chasing his opponent constantly. No one knows his correct speed when he's doing hard combat turn.

Mediocre gauge is the biggest VVS weakness but we can't expect this due to damn speedbar. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

If you can't afford TrackIR, PL+No speed bar is rather good for balance and gameplay thou I dislike PL. (I'd like to say it's more realistic but flame may arise.)
PL.. speedbar.. I don't like both of them. But if I must choose worst, speedbar is worst.(for gameplay and realism.)

Objections arise at this time.
1. "I can feel my attitude and speed if it's real."
-> No. If you do some hard maneuver in combat, you can't tell whether you're going forward or backward. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
And our flying environment is so comfortable and graphics good enough, so we got easier speed and attitude perception. (yeah, it's different from real but the fact it's easier is clear.)

2. "I can reference my gauge with eyeball+head move while I track my opponent if it's real."
-> Really? Even when the opponent is on your 7 o'clock? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
FOV of human eye is not that wide enough. you can't READ your speed&altitude gauge if your head is behind 3 or 9 o'clock. Try it with your monitor now. Yes, with hat switch, it's too difficult to quick glance but with TrackIR, you can do it with no problem. Just glance slight and back to opponent. Somewhat different from real head + eye move but it's quite easy.
If you can't afford TrackIR, you can use PL+PL forward glace setup.

3. "In yak, I can't see the damn compass!"
-> I don't know. Ask Oleg to fix it. I use sun and clock when I'm in yak.


........
Speedbar so much spoils essence of flight. It's far better than HUD on modern jets. If speed, attitude and altitude perception was maintained that easily, HUD would never invented. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (Then was it difficult? You know, it's easy enough in FB.)

IT'S FUN TO FLY WITH THE PLANE, TERRAIN, SKY AND GAUGES, NOT STUPID BOTTOM LEFT THREE LINE TEXT.

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Message Edited on 10/18/0301:17AM by TooCooL34

adlabs6
10-17-2003, 05:11 PM
The 109E is my favorite panel in FB. I really wish that the panels in the P40 and P47 weren't black as pitch, and I do hope the P51 is not so dark. The Russian panels aren't so great for me, but the Mig's are pretty good.

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Hawgdog
10-17-2003, 05:13 PM
AlGroover wrote:
- Bf109 has a great layout. The only improvement would
- have been to install the artificial horizon from the
- FW190.



Yes.....but you can SEE out of the 109! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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Buzz_25th
10-17-2003, 06:20 PM
TooCool,

You assume everybody has good eyesight. Except for the 109 I pretty much have to zoom in to read the gauges. This takes away my option to do it real fast.

I use TrackIR and i'm pretty good at zooming in fast to check a gauge and zoom back out. However, during combat it can get me in trouble some times.

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:56 PM
Sorry, Buzz.
It was somewhat hasty generalizaton. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Let me correct my first sentence to...
"Those who have decent PC, above 19" monitor, TrackIR and good eyesight...."

I heard one of your eyes is not good. almost blind. Will bigger monitor like 21", 22" could help you?(with high resolution)

Hehe. dunno. I just wish you read the gauges without zooming by whatever means.



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Buzz_25th
10-17-2003, 07:10 PM
Yeah one eye is blind completely, and the other one is not doing too good. I try and ignore it, and do my best.

I've got a high end system, and a 21" monitor. I'd be useless with anything else.

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:45 PM
Really? Let's see you follow heading 120 for five minutes using only the sun and your clock then, Mr. Smartypants. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

TooCooL34 wrote:
- Right.
- If you have decent PC and TrackIR, there's no reason
- to use speedbar. Reading gauge is real fun.
-
- Moreover, we wouldn't see La doing endless 300km
- turn chasing his opponent constantly. No one knows
- his correct speed when he's doing hard combat turn.
-
- Mediocre gauge is the biggest VVS weakness but we
- can't expect this due to damn speedbar. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
-
- If you can't afford TrackIR, PL+No speed bar is
- rather good for balance and gameplay thou I dislike
- PL. (I'd like to say it's more realistic but flame
- may arise.)
- PL.. speedbar.. I don't like both of them. But if I
- must choose worst, speedbar is worst.(for gameplay
- and realism.)
-
- Objections arise at this time.
- 1. "I can feel my attitude and speed if it's real."
--> No. If you do some hard maneuver in combat, you can't tell whether you're going forward or backward. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
- And our flying environment is so comfortable and
- graphics good enough, so we got easier speed and
- attitude perception. (yeah, it's different from real
- but the fact it's easier is clear.)
-
- 2. "I can reference my gauge with eyeball+head move
- while I track my opponent if it's real."
--> Really? Even when the opponent is on your 7 o'clock? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
- FOV of human eye is not that wide enough. you can't
- READ your speed&altitude gauge if your head is
- behind 3 or 9 o'clock. Try it with your monitor now.
- Yes, with hat switch, it's too difficult to quick
- glance but with TrackIR, you can do it with no
- problem. Just glance slight and back to opponent.
- Somewhat different from real head + eye move but
- it's quite easy.
- If you can't afford TrackIR, you can use PL+PL
- forward glace setup.
-
- 3. "In yak, I can't see the damn compass!"
--> I don't know. Ask Oleg to fix it. I use sun and clock when I'm in yak.
-
-
- ........
- Speedbar so much spoils essence of flight. It's far
- better than HUD on modern jets. If speed, attitude
- and altitude perception was maintained that easily,
- HUD would never invented. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (Then was it difficult? You
- know, it's easy enough in FB.)
-
- IT'S FUN TO FLY WITH THE PLANE, TERRAIN, SKY AND
- GAUGES, NOT STUPID BOTTOM LEFT THREE LINE TEXT.
-
- =================================
- <font size = 1>
- Athlon XP 3200+, FIC AU13 MOBO, DDR 1024M,
- GeForce4ti4200,
- MCP-T SoundStorm, Barracuda IV 7200rpm 60G HDD,
- Yes,I got TrackIR/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , Two M$ SW Pr2(weird but good
- HOTAS.Bill,let sticks be made!)
-
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-
- </font>
-
- Message Edited on 10/18/03 01:17AM by TooCooL34



- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:09 PM
AirBot wrote:
- Really? Let's see you follow heading 120 for five
- minutes using only the sun and your clock then, Mr.
Smartypants. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

So what? I said Ask Oleg to fix it. Don't bug me around. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Tell me if you have a good answer about 5min hdg120 flight when you don't have speedbar and compass.(and why should I do that? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif ) Bracket my leg with better logic plz.



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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 12:44 PM
Mr tooool, id love to be purfect and rich like u are
but if u had never used track IR, would u be saying speedbar is so sinful then? i think not, as for PL any setting that allows you to track an aircraft thats not in view (ie just under aircraft nose etc) is more unrealistic than speedbar besides the fact on the few times iv used it to engage enemys i find it VERY disorentating, PL is great for formation flying but thats it IMHO. SO PLEASE DONT DEGRADE PEOPLE WHO LIKE SPEEDBAR JUST CAUSE THEY DONT HAVE TRACK IR.

MY 2 BOBS WORTH

Konigwolf

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 02:55 PM
WTE_Konigwolf wrote:
- Mr tooool, id love to be purfect and rich like u are
- but if u had never used track IR, would u be saying
- speedbar is so sinful then? i think not, as for PL
- any setting that allows you to track an aircraft
- thats not in view (ie just under aircraft nose etc)
- is more unrealistic than speedbar besides the fact
- on the few times iv used it to engage enemys i find
- it VERY disorentating, PL is great for formation
- flying but thats it IMHO. SO PLEASE DONT DEGRADE
- PEOPLE WHO LIKE SPEEDBAR JUST CAUSE THEY DONT HAVE
- TRACK IR.
-
- MY 2 BOBS WORTH
-
- Konigwolf
-
-

Sorry, I'm not rich and perfect. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

Just hoped speedbar to be off for balance and gameplay. (Not Should)

Maybe someday everybody could have Tracker and be happy.

Sorry agin if it offend you. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 04:30 PM
georgeo76 wrote:
Yea, without a doubt one of the best comedies ever.
-
I love Dr. Strangelove!! Classic movie. Think Ill rent it!!

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