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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:01 AM
I've always been neg'd out by the big cockpit window frames in the BF109. Why because I can't lean forward, to the side, or up to see around them. I could do that in real life most of the time, because I'm a human being moving within a 3 dimensional world.

The way the IL2-FB makes my head twist on a centerline pivot is almost absurb. Sure I know realism is always an issue. Is what we have close to real?

So, I'm thinking why not have translucent cockpit frames. That way you wouldn't be in a lousy hud, and you'd have a lot better ability to orient yourself. It would be nice if there were levels of translucency as well.

I feel foolish sitting in front of my 19" monitor looking into a 2d world, behind this bouncing virtual cockpit, missing 2/3 of what I should be seeing because of the cockpit bars. My viewpoint is I'm seeing this miniscule part of the simulation world as it is. I'm just looking through this HOLE (19"screen) into that world, with no peripheral vision or head movement possible.

I think the translucency should provide ability to see behind the cockpit to some degree, because you could always lean on the glass real world to the side and see a lot more behind you.

I'm not asking to see through the cockpit, the floorboards, the engine, or the wings. I'm interested to see what I could see, if I had the ability to move my head 3dimensionally within a specific range of motion. I don't think that should be so hard to do, and I just think translucency of the frames and miniscule areas of the aircraft should be suitable.

I think this is a viable alternative, until we get virtual reality hoods.

I'm interested to read some alternative thoughts on this, if you've got ideas.

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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:01 AM
I've always been neg'd out by the big cockpit window frames in the BF109. Why because I can't lean forward, to the side, or up to see around them. I could do that in real life most of the time, because I'm a human being moving within a 3 dimensional world.

The way the IL2-FB makes my head twist on a centerline pivot is almost absurb. Sure I know realism is always an issue. Is what we have close to real?

So, I'm thinking why not have translucent cockpit frames. That way you wouldn't be in a lousy hud, and you'd have a lot better ability to orient yourself. It would be nice if there were levels of translucency as well.

I feel foolish sitting in front of my 19" monitor looking into a 2d world, behind this bouncing virtual cockpit, missing 2/3 of what I should be seeing because of the cockpit bars. My viewpoint is I'm seeing this miniscule part of the simulation world as it is. I'm just looking through this HOLE (19"screen) into that world, with no peripheral vision or head movement possible.

I think the translucency should provide ability to see behind the cockpit to some degree, because you could always lean on the glass real world to the side and see a lot more behind you.

I'm not asking to see through the cockpit, the floorboards, the engine, or the wings. I'm interested to see what I could see, if I had the ability to move my head 3dimensionally within a specific range of motion. I don't think that should be so hard to do, and I just think translucency of the frames and miniscule areas of the aircraft should be suitable.

I think this is a viable alternative, until we get virtual reality hoods.

I'm interested to read some alternative thoughts on this, if you've got ideas.

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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:04 AM
Amen.

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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:07 AM
the PC monitor is always going to represent a smaller field of view then a real pilot would have, you lack both the periferal field of view in addition to the abilty to pan around as a real pilot would. I would quite like the abilty to see through the cockpit frame, i don't think it would detract from reality too much either.

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:12 AM
Hear Hear! The simulation of a pilot with 1 eye with his head on a pole, coupled with the restricted view of a monitor, renders this idea fantastic!

I have long been a staunch supporter of transparent edges to the cockpit bars (only the middle third would be solid) to simulate a pilot with 2 eyes, instead of 1.

3D glasses are not the answer, they just give you a headache. I am also holding off on buying track IR till a sim supports side to side movement, not just rotation.

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RBJ ... ACE at large!

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:18 AM
Seat adjustments like janes wwii fighters has would be nice and help the problem, more so then transparent cockpit bars.

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:31 AM
The problem right now is that the 3D cockpits aren't completely 3D. the sruts show a nice 3D representation from your static point of view but would look all wrong if you leaned from side to side. I'm sure Oleg's next sim , or the one after, will take this into account along with the NaturalPoint (TrackIR) folks who are working on sort of TIR possibly with two transmitter/receivers but that's a while off still. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I'm behind translucent strut bars but would even settle for some side-to-side head drift that responds to centrifugal force if the cockpit textures would get by for a small amount of movement. The only other option would be button/hat/slider (for RBJ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) assignments for left/right lean. This would make it harder to aim while leaning but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I believe there is a better way, anyway.

"You can ***** your finger..."

Flying online as "Charvel"

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:31 AM
I'm not raggin' on you... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

why do you say that?

You'd have to have another hat or control device for moving in the seat, you still couldn't see around the frames.

Maybe, you could explain better what you mean, or better still how you could move in your seat quick enough for aerial combat situations?

I think an important part of the visual issue has to be a reasonable implementation of the solution.


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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:33 AM
I think it's a great idea.


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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:46 AM
If you played janes wwii fighters you would know what its like and its historically accurate the seats all were adjustable

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:56 AM
I've got Jane's WW2 fighters. You can't move fast enough to target, shoot and move the seat for combat... (my opinion of course /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 12:59 AM
nearmiss,

a brilliant idea!... Let's face it, some of the cockpit views are appalling. No, not the accuracy of the image itself, which is wonderful, but they don't seem the least bit real in terms of visibility. Let's face it, "wonder woman" view with a strip of duct tape across the bottom of the screen is more like the actual feel of a cockpit.

Heck I used to live in a tank half a lifetime ago, and I felt I had more visibility than I do in the Fw190 cockpit!

Given it's a modelled image, it shoouldn't be hard to have a series of different opacities available to choose from, perhaps in 10% increments.

Then of course we'll have servers that'll restrict access to it and we'll start a whole new stack of whining (huge grin) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

(I really shouldn't post after being up all night at work! I'm raving again...nurse! where's my room?)

cheers,
Tony
(flying as "wombat" on HL)


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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 01:02 AM
Here's Johnny...(jack nicholson)

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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 01:13 AM
I agree.

The pilot can shift his head and look around any part that is not too thick.

You can solve this by letting the player move his point of view but that would make looking around too complex.

Transparent cockpit frames would be a good solution.

Big parts like the fuselage front, sides and rear and the wings would be rendered as they are now.

Another thing that could be made transparent are protrusions in the cockpit that block instruments.
Examples are the controlstick and the gunsight.

A wise man gives careful thought about between whose ivory guillotines he puts his head.

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 01:42 AM
In my opinion, I think setting the camera position forward of teh pivot point would go some way towards solving the problem. When we look to the side- our eyes get closer to the canopy sides & give a wider fields of view. This would help particularly looking behind in planes with a bubble canopy (FW109 P47 etc). We could then see behind teh seat's headrest.

Looking 45deg left or right would give us a view round the windscreen frame slightly, & simulate the parallax effect of seeing throught the bars.

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 05:44 AM
Im pretty sure Oleg and his team knows Aces High by Hitecreations.
In Aces High the cockpits are 3D just like IL2 (just less quality) but there you are able to move your head on 3 axis and even save your favourite head's position for each view.
Thats perfect when you are going to land, you just move your view upwards like lifting yer head or butt, moving also left or right cleaning your front view from the nose or frontal frames while landing, taxing or taking off or during combat.

I REALLY dont understand why a great and innovative feature like that in a flight sim wasnt also done by Oleg to IL2.
There must be strong reasons for him to dont add it to this fantastic game. The only thing im sure is that IL2 really deserves such improvement. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



BUT the idea of translucent cockpit's frames is the worst ive seen for a flight sim with the quality of IL2. nearmiss /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif





Message Edited on 04/20/0304:49AM by Hans_Haupt

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 08:58 AM
Good idea! The tracking function should allow for natural head movements within the cockpit or, as suggested , make parts of the cockpit semitransparent. It's irritating when the track is lost because the object is behind a non transparent part of the hood. Takes a new sim or can it be implemented in a future patch?
MaxMaster

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 09:57 AM
I am definitely in favor of semi-transparent cockpit bars, or better yet have the majority of the edges (inner and outter) semi-transparent while keeping a very small portion solid. A pilot's head movement would be very fast and simple, shifting perspective with keys would take too long IMHO. The only problem is that moving your head to look around a bar would throw off your vision through the gunsight unless head movements were made straight forward and back.

Either way I would like something to be implemented because the current setup is too static and restricting, not realistic. I think Oleg and crew could do something very innovative regarding this matter, raising the bar for flight sims even higher.

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 01:07 PM
Yes! As a matter of fact I've been thinking about this myself, but you beat me to the punch. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It would afford a much more realistic view of the surroundings. Buttons to move your head left/rightseem cumbersome to me. Make cockpit struts transparent, and now suddenly you have 100% more situational awareness.

This is a problem that Track IR doesn't solve or even address.

Joques

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 03:28 PM
Something should be done... will it happen? naaaa I doubt it... this horse died long ago.

The view system in IL2 and FB is my biggest complaint.

I'm a big fan of Aces High's view system, maybe a bit liberal sure, but for the life of me I can't understand why noone else has follwed their lead to some degree...

The dev's may say "we don't copy Ideas" but thats BS.. every flight sim has copied something from a predecessor...


SKurj

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 04:06 PM
Translucent cockpit frames are a great idea. Devs please make it happen please...

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 04:22 PM
Eh, i cant land and go out and find a prostitute either.. you cant have it all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 04:22 PM
I've thought about this issue too. I don't think its possible to handle without some kind of virtual reality headset. Translucent bars is a good idea, but I don't think I would ever use them, I think i'd feel like I was flying some alien spacecraft.

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 04:58 PM
I am too for semi-transparent cockpit bars, because the views in some cockpit are very painful, especially in the 190 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 05:05 PM
Transparent frames would make cocpits look ugly. I think the viewing point should be able to be moved around like in Jane's WWII Fighters. This would simulate your head movement around inside the cockpit. It wouldn't be cumbersome, you just have to take your hands off the throttle for a second, feel around for the arrow keys, and make any adjustments. Transparent frames would make me feel like a little kid when flying.

http://www.animatedgif.net/funny/chickenexplode_e0.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 06:06 PM
EvilBen wrote:
- Transparent frames would make cocpits look ugly. I
- think the viewing point should be able to be moved
- around like in Jane's WWII Fighters.

OK, If you get into a bubble cockpit there are few if any support frames. I guess it is all in getting used to /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I don't mind the head movement thing, but can it be. I've only got two hands and two feet. My fingers are busy as well ....but I am male I do have an extra appendage or so, just gotta figure out a way to use'em.

I've got it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif a control device utilizing the relief tube.

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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 06:40 PM
This has been brought up before. Didn't Oleg say no to the idea?

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XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 07:08 PM
Not bad idea
dif level of transparency would be cool,

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2003, 07:19 PM
i dunno im not really for the idea may different pov positions for each aircraft

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
04-21-2003, 01:20 AM
For those of you thinking you will need extra keys to adjust your view to see around the obstructions while in flight....

Here's how AH does it..(for those that haven't tried it - its free by the way and not a huge download)

Each view direction has a saveable viewpoint. Hop in the plane, on the runway, or offline anytime, choose a view.. LEFT for example. Lets say there is a frame directly in the center of your view. Using keys permitting 3 axes of adjustment,( L, R, FWD, BACK, UP, DWN) adjust so the frame isn't directly blocking your view, and then press another key to save that position. Each aircraft would then have a settings file. The file would contain your saved viewpoints as well as things like your last used loadout, convergence etc (be real nice if it could include your stick scaling too)

In AH once the views are set I have never found the need to change it during flight.

This feature would make alot of sense in aircraft with a brace running down the center of the canopy. Look at the FW's for example... do ya think the pilot would look straight up with that brace right there? NO.. he would shift to the right or left abit... With the suggestions above, the player would save that view and not worry about it again.

IL2/FB is the current benchmark in some areas, its a shame its antiquated in some other areas.


SKurj

XyZspineZyX
04-21-2003, 04:49 AM
The flight sim X-Plane ( from www.x-plane.com (http://www.x-plane.com) ) has an option for a semi-transparent cockpit. Here's what the cockpit looks like normally:



http://www.dslextreme.com/users/gerfen//images/IL-2%20Screenshots/screenshot_4.JPG



and here's the same view with the see-through cockpit (notice the plane behind the RH cockpit frame):



http://www.dslextreme.com/users/gerfen//images/IL-2%20Screenshots/screenshot_5a.JPG



I think that this would be a reasonable option if it could only be applied to the canopy frame.

XyZspineZyX
04-21-2003, 05:17 AM
Actually this great idea would be so simple to do....

I mean, you have your gunsight and it's transparent. Phalcon just showed how even and old crappy sim can do it.

Somebody needs to PM Oleg.

<img src=http://www.bg55.com/spergregani1.gif>
RBJ ... ACE at large!

XyZspineZyX
04-21-2003, 05:32 AM
yup, that would work for me. Then i'd need one of these 3 monitor vid cards and my track IR

more info; http://www.matrox.com/mga/3d_gaming/surrgame.cfm



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XyZspineZyX
04-21-2003, 04:06 PM
Phalcon51

That's it! A picture is certainly worth a thousand words.

The only additional consideration would be to allow a little more visibility when you look back...allowing for the fact in an actual aircraft you could lean over and look back, which would give you some visibility behind you.

Regardless, if we just had translucent frames like these I'd be OK with that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I'd actually be ecstatic /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Another point I think has a lot of validity is the fact that we would enjoy the sim more, just because we could see more.

When I build missions and include all those great ground effects...I can't see any of them unless I'm nose down or the HUD view is on.

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XyZspineZyX
04-21-2003, 04:17 PM
- I think that this would be a reasonable option if it
- could only be applied to the canopy frame.

Yes! So long as we are clear on the "only be applied to the canopy frame" part! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Excellent pics.

Joques

XyZspineZyX
04-21-2003, 06:05 PM
I like this idea. I've got 'toggle gunsight' on a joystick button, and sometimes you can look round canopy bars using this. But it's very hit and miss.
This bit of the RAE's evaluation of a BF109 E caught my eye - "The struts between the glass panels are thin and do not impair vision, catch the pilot's eye or create blind spots." (my emphasis).

Rather different from the sim experience, I think you will agree.

At the very least, icons should remain visible when planes go behind canopy bars. Sometimes I will use long icons, despite their ugliness, to give me a greater chance of tracking a target visually in a dogfight. I think this improvement would be trivial to implement.

XyZspineZyX
04-21-2003, 06:47 PM
I recomended this a long time ago. Maybe it'll get taken seriously this time. Its a solid idea.

Of course, if one could pull instrument data from the sim, and display it on a networked machine elsewhere, you wouldn't need that cockpit view at all.

I'm thinking of something else. Nevermind.

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There is no presence of infidel BUGS in the Forgotten Battles, at all,"</CENTER>

XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 08:20 PM
Bump

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XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 08:38 PM
Can't you just assign a key on your stick to toggle the cockpit off and on? Infact depending on your stick software assign a hat in neutral position to display the forward view of the pit and then the other positions of the hat to take the pit off. Throw in a macro for the differnt positions of the hat and now you got you unobstucted views and when hat is released it will return to your forward view of the cockpit. Just make 90 degree hat position no cockpit view if you only want to get rid of cockpit. Ofcourse you cant snap up but there are ways around that too. Just a thought.

XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 09:10 PM
rummyrum wrote:
- Can't you just assign a key on your stick to toggle
- the cockpit off and on? Infact depending on your
- stick software assign a hat in neutral position to
- display the forward view of the pit and then the
- other positions of the hat to take the pit off.
- Throw in a macro for the differnt positions of the
- hat and now you got you unobstucted views and when
- hat is released it will return to your forward view
- of the cockpit. Just make 90 degree hat position no
- cockpit view if you only want to get rid of cockpit.
- Ofcourse you cant snap up but there are ways around
- that too. Just a thought.
-
-

Right, there are a zillion workarounds.

Why not just have the frames translucent, which you can see in an earlier posting. The frames and cockpit help alot with orientation, especially in combat.

The HUD just stinks for combat, but it's nice when you want to enjoy the scenery, special effects and viewing everything better.

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XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 09:24 PM
I don't think it'd be possible to have translucent cockpit frames. If it was it It'd still be hell of a work as none of the cockpits are done that in mind. We are talking about hundreds of man hours here.

Plus the download size of the patch, think about the size of a addon with half a dozen planes in it. It would be hundreds of MB for download....

The whole cockpit bit transparent maybe, with some trick in a code maybe could be possible. But then again, I wouldn't know anything about that.


I think it is safe to say you can stop dreaming about it, for this sim it seems impossible


To much to do with to little to gain, one already can get the wonder woman or the "full monty", isn't it enough. If you don't like frames play with no-cockpit, if you like frames, have them?


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 09:29 PM
Well i dint mean fire from it. In the scenario I presented the cockpit is on when facing forward and only turned off if you need it to be. You dont need to shoot from wonderwoman view just use it as a way around the obstructions.

All this never really bothers me... THere are ways to see around the struts currently in a closed pit game. Shift f1 is a good example.

XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 10:02 PM
I don't see why this would be hard to implement at all.

Whats so hard about it? You use the same template just make it tranparent and voila.

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XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 10:21 PM
transparent cockpit frames sound like a great idea... as long as you could set the level of transparency

ChrisLTD
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XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 10:39 PM
I'd say if you could just move your "eyeball" left and right, up and down that would be enough. when I first got FB and I saw those FOV commands that's what I thought they were for.

"Altitude, speed, maneuver, fire!"-The "formula of Terror" of Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Three times awarded the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union

XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 10:58 PM
georgeo76 wrote:
- I'd say if you could just move your "eyeball" left
- and right, up and down that would be enough. when I
- first got FB and I saw those FOV commands that's
- what I thought they were for.


No way, man. I would hate to have to assign like 4 buttons and then have to use them to simulate having 2 eyes. Some games have where you can shift your head by pressing buttons but that is just a cumbersome half-baked solution. you should not have to use any buttons to see what a pilot could natually see.

Next time you get in your car look at a point 100m beyond your left windshield pillar. You will notice your left windshield pillar is transparent (ecept for a thin part in the middle)

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XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 01:09 AM
I understand its a nothing deal to do. All you do is color the frames translucent

Go back an look at Phalcon51 post on this thread, translucent frames only would make a very good fix for alot of problems without re-inventing the wheel.

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XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 02:37 AM
How about we just get a better view system? Anybody in for customizable head positions?



-----------
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XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 02:47 AM
Ok...how you gonna do it. more keystokes somewhere that's sure. The IR track has all the head movement you want, but still can't see around the frames.

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XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 07:16 AM
nearmiss wrote:
- I understand its a nothing deal to do. All you do is
- color the frames translucent
-

And how you do that? Do you know? What does it take?

What do you see when the cockpit frame is transparent? Do you see some parts of the cockpit that shouldn't be seen?

If you change cockpit frames to transparent, will you need to have thinner one more transparent and thicker ones less as would be realistic? What happens where the frame meets cockpit edge? What if the same material was used somewhere else and part of your instrument panel becomes transparent?


What would you do with the 300-400Mb patch download? What will the guy with 28.8kb modem do?


Trust me it is far from easy, and in the end it had nothing to do with reality(cockpit frames were solid, just perception of them causes the EDGES of them become transparent. I'm not willing to do it on any of my cockpits (if Maddox wants, go ahead!), I know plenty of ways to spend my days more usefully.


Much better idea is to allow little bit head movement to see around better, and already it will cause new problems...



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 07:19 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- I don't see why this would be hard to implement at
- all.
-
- Whats so hard about it? You use the same template
- just make it tranparent and voila.
-

There's no "template" for cockpits, they are too complicated for such.

For example at the moment Ju-88 A-4 cockpit consists of 95 seperate graphic files, of which some affect frames and some not.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 07:25 AM
kweassa wrote:
-
- How about we just get a better view system? Anybody
- in for customizable head positions?


Even ability to move head on one axis would help a lot. Say from back high to front low (could be mapped on a slider) would help a lot. Even though pilots were strapped tightly to their seats I'm sure they still could straighten their back, and lean forward a little bit. This would help especially with frames right next to pilots head and above the gunsight. It would also help a little bit to see over the nose in planes like 190.

Of course you would loose the sight of the sighting reticle, but if you had a button to return to center position....


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 07:37 AM
nearmiss wrote:
- Ok...how you gonna do it. more keystokes somewhere
- that's sure. The IR track has all the head movement
- you want, but still can't see around the frames.
-

Get a pair of 3D glasses and you are sorted! The frames become transparent just like in real life.

TrackIR + 3D glasses = colsest to reality.

But sadly most people are to tight to stump up the cash, and would rather moan about the limitation their tightness has placed upon them. It's only fair that those who pay for hardware should have an advantage in terms of reality.

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 08:04 AM
Jippo wouldnt every cockpit need to be reworked for trasparent cockpit bars, the opacity of the actual model segments along without the textures, then have the textures opacity lowered as well. It would be alot of work and not as simple as people think and a enormus download.

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

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XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 08:10 AM
Exactly Leadspitter!

All hand work, and individually done for every cockpit. Plus the checking of everything else than the frames, to find out new problems caused by the transparent frames.

Very time consuming.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 08:43 AM
im heading off to bed and a bit too tired to read through both pages so forgive me if this has already been suggested. i posted this a while ago in the ready room in a thread about the same subject. if any of you have played raven shield, the newest rainbow six game, you are able to bend your guy at the waist left or right by holding down a key and moving your mouse to the left or right. depending on how far you move your mouse is how far he bends at the waist. to straighten up you simply push a key. its how you peek around corners in that game but i dont see why the same thing couldnt be used in fb. both are first person perspective. we could have keys for various amounts of lean either way and maybe a slider option for fluid leaning. and im sure the tir guys could find a way where their product could distinguish between leaning left and right, and turning your head left and right

anyway, just a thought

S!

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XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 09:08 AM
I'm always wondering why people are so quick to assume certain things are easy to do, without considering the potential problems... of course it would require adjustments to the 3D models if you only wanted to have certain parts transparent, that's quite obvious. It's not as easy as setting a single flag and voila, that's it.

Besides, am I the only one who thinks this looks absolutely terrible and is a perfect immersion killer? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Yes I know, no need to use it if I don't like it, just wanted to mention this. For the view problems that definitely exist in FB and have been pointed out more than once, this is no valid solution for me unfortunately.

I would rather see the possibility to move the head position around in some way. No rocket science, no major remodelling required... seeing some places in the cockpit that weren't modelled to be looked at would be a minor problem I'm sure (actually such stuff already happens in some cockpits currently anyway, so what /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ).

Lots of people would be happy about this, and the 3D cockpits still seem wasted a bit with this limited view system to me. And unlike other sims with flexible positions, even the gunsight reflection is programmed the right way for this...

- Caretaker

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 11:08 AM
What about an on OPTION of No Cockpit frames? Probably the less complicated programming option and have it in addition to or replace the No cokpit view. I would try flying the German planes if I could only SEE! In reality, I cannot believe that German pilots were so blind!

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 11:24 AM
I think translucence would look kind of goofy.

Given the CURRENT models, and the fact that most if not all of us have several available options for view control would it not make more sense just to have an extra "lean" axis on the point of view?

i.e.

Mouse/TrackIR for line of sight (as currently).

Mappable Joystick Hat/Keys/HOTAS for a limited lean axis left/right/up/down.

I'm not a coder but I'd imagine the viewpoint pivot could be moved around within the current environment without too much problem?

SSS

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 11:32 AM
Most definately,like many have said before it's like looking with one eye.

If the frame can't be made translucent it should at least be made thinner.

It would be excellent if the frame only was translucent where the enemy was, well that's probably too much to ask for. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

F19_Choocky

www.f19vs.tk (http://www.f19vs.tk)

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 12:19 PM
Preferably translucent or, if it is significantly easier, removed frames. The way it is now is a joke - there's no kinder way of putting it.

Yes, Oleg said it was not going to happen. The reason given was that the struts have to be there to obscure the constantly visible struts in the external model.

I'm going to have a look at that mirror of the Hurri which CAN be turned on and off when I can. If the external models are in fact visible at all times, nothing to do about it, we'll see the mirror, right?

Cheers,
Fred




No sig as of now, as people apparently can't handle reality without creating too much trouble for the poor mods.

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 12:39 PM
It's funny how someone can come up with the greatest idea ever in these forums, and there will be people who try to sidetrack it, or disagree.

The main issue here is simulating a pilot with 2 eyeballs instead of 1 (which IL2 FB does not do). 3D glasses, they just give you a headache and you'll also need your monitor refreshing at 170 hz (b/c the 3d image cuts it in half)

One eyeball means the cockpit bars will NEVER be transparent (as it is now) Two eyeballs means the cockpit bars would be transparent when looking in the distance. given that fact that the monitor only affords a sim pilot about 8% of the view that a real pilot had, it is perfectly logical, and more immersive (BloodyCaretaker) to immplement this.

The secondary issue is a pilot who can move his head in 3 dimensions. Seeing as how to do this would require dual hatswitches operating at the same time (one for rotation, the other for 3d positioning) or Track IR that does more than just rotate your head, it is not only too hard to do, it is also partly immpossible due to current track IR technology (heck I'm still waiting for them to increase their sampling rate before I consider buying it)

I'm no 3d modeler, but I do know there are old sims that could do this, and all it is is tweaking the cockpit bars, it's not like the external model or the maps need to be changed.

I say Oleg, go for it!!!!!!!

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Message Edited on 04/29/0308:26AM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 12:40 PM
Choocky wrote:

- If the frame can't be made translucent it should at
- least be made thinner.


This is even bigger job than the transparency. And highly unrealistic approach as well. Who is to say how much thinner they should be? Does the thinning depend on the distance from pilots head? Should only vertical frames be thinner because humans eyes are usually side by side in the face? Or all?

IF it was made that the frames wer 66% thinner there would be people whining that they should be 65% or 67%!!! Can you imagine the arguments?


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 12:43 PM
effte wrote:

- Yes, Oleg said it was not going to happen. The
- reason given was that the struts have to be there to
- obscure the constantly visible struts in the
- external model.


I think there is a misuderstanding somewhere here, at no point do the cockpit struts in flyable cockpits need to cover the struts on external models.

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 12:46 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:

- I'm no 3d modeler, but I do know there are old sims
- that could do this, and all it is is tweaking the
- cockpit bars, it's not like the external model or
- the maps need to be changed.

I love this "it's done before, why can't we have it here" argument as well /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Fact is, the models were not made with this functionality in mind. You do not seem to know enough about the modelling and programming of FB to make an educated guess about the effort needed to implement this. Whereas people who have already contributed models to the game clearly say it's a major effort.

Besides, making the struts transparent wouldn't exactly mimic stereo vision much. But that's not the point - I don't disagree with people who want this feature only because I would find it horrible myself. But as this is obviously not going to happen anyway due to the given reasons, we should look for different solutions to the visibility problems that do exist. A more flexible head position would be a good start and much easier to implement. Sorry if you call this "sidetracking the issue".

- Caretaker

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 12:46 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
-
- I'm no 3d modeler, but I do know there are old sims
- that could do this, and all it is is tweaking the
- cockpit bars, it's not like the external model or
- the maps need to be changed.
-
- I say Oleg, go for it!!!!!!!



<h1>Cockpit bars cannot be tweaked with reasonable effort!!!!!</h1>


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 01:17 PM
Well Jippo01, these are just ideas and without them nothing would ever happen.

What if someone wanted to make a flight sim and decided it wasn't worth it because people are going to argue about the aircrafts performances compared to how they were in real life?

ring a bell? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



F19_Choocky

www.f19vs.tk (http://www.f19vs.tk)

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 02:01 PM
So those that ARE in the know re: modelling, game development and so on, could you answer the following?

Of all the suggestions here, would it not be relatively straightforward, with the current game design, to enable the viewpoint centre to be moved around inside the cockpit within the constraints of realistic body movement by, say, hatswitch. This would enable people to peer round canopy frames as they are currently modelled without redesigning everything to be made of perspex? Or is the viewpoint center fixed in more ways than one with regard to lighting, etc.?

Personally, I don't think it's that big an issue compared with other "realistic" simulators. It's always a compromise, and even the view out of 109s isn't so bad with TrackIR. True, you might have to dab the rudder every now and again but it's not that much of a chore!

SSS

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 02:13 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- effte wrote:
-
-- Yes, Oleg said it was not going to happen. The
-- reason given was that the struts have to be there to
-- obscure the constantly visible struts in the
-- external model.
-
-
- I think there is a misuderstanding somewhere here,
- at no point do the cockpit struts in flyable
- cockpits need to cover the struts on external
- models.

I'm only saying this was the reason given. If that is not the case, draw your own conclusions. I've drawn mine.

Cheers,
Fred


No sig as of now, as people apparently can't handle reality without creating too much trouble for the poor mods.

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 02:25 PM
Choocky wrote:
- Well Jippo01, these are just ideas and without them
- nothing would ever happen.
-
- What if someone wanted to make a flight sim and
- decided it wasn't worth it because people are going
- to argue about the aircrafts performances compared
- to how they were in real life?


Yeah, you're right!

I'm just trying to help. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Maybe there would be then ideas that are doable, when the troublesome ones have been ruled out. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
04-29-2003, 02:28 PM
SSS, it sure would cause much less problems with current cockpit models.

And I would like to see some such solution.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 05:18 PM
bump

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 06:41 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:

- The secondary issue is a pilot who can move his head
- in 3 dimensions. Seeing as how to do this would
- require dual hatswitches operating at the same time
- (one for rotation, the other for 3d positioning) or
- Track IR that does more than just rotate your head,
- it is not only too hard to do, it is also partly
- immpossible due to current track IR technology (heck
- I'm still waiting for them to increase their
- sampling rate before I consider buying it)

What's wrong with the sample rate. Ever use one of these units yourself?

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 06:53 PM
These are great ideas.

Movable head .... translucent cockpit bars ... whichever! Both are excellent ideas that are worth implementing.

--
<font size=-2>A little known fact to most WW2 historians, the Luftwaffe selected only midgets and dwarves to fly the Fw 190. This practice put the little people to good use while also serving the despicable "final solution" of eliminating undesirable persons through combat losses. Thanks to proprietary historical documents (which cannot be revealed to the public) Forgotten Battles is the ONLY flight sim to model this historic detail.</font>

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 08:00 PM
If we all have the same handicap, what is the difference? Just learn to play with what we have for views. Real pilots had blind spots so why shouldn't we also?

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 08:04 PM
i think a more realistic appearing cockpit fram would do, perspective used for design lacks proper dimension to the whole of cockpit, proly cause by the original 35mm photo they used to create the cockpit vusually. there are inherent flaws in the lens/film plane w regards to proper depiction of scale and perspective..

MAD

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 08:05 PM
i havent posted on these forums before because i can't be bothered (though i read them alot), but with this i had to. Its an absolutely fantastic idea, well done, sir /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 08:17 PM
Precisely why I turn the cockpit view off.



Johann

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 09:12 PM
KarayaEine wrote:
- Precisely why I turn the cockpit view off.
- Johann


Yeah but Johann....thats not realistic.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Thats why I prefer no pit as well. Some of us want to have it both ways...I want the cake..just one bite..I want the cake...one more bite... I dunno.... for me I would rather just have no cockpit than one I could see through...at least with no pit or full pit I can get the feel I am flying a plane...a translucent pit would just kill it for me. Thats why I dont fly with the dials on the screen..... just give me the little speedbar writing out of the way in the lower corner there..no 2 inch dials plastered across my screen.. but hey...thats just me......




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XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 12:12 AM
theres cockpit off for those who cant fly with full realism. Its an already been done idea in other sims, its would be a hugh download over 400 megs an incrediable amount of work on everysingle cockpit just for ez settings which i wouldnt use.

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XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 01:28 AM
Forget the translucency. Moveable perspective via hatswitch!!!! We're talking N.Y. Times Front Page news here! Such a cool feature, even folks who never before played flight sims would be buying it! Pan with mouse (or TIR), and adjust with the hat switch! It CAN be done, we HAVE the technology! I'm hyperventilating..., BRB....



-S!-

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XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 01:59 AM
Bolth of thoes Ideas combined would be awsome

Adjustable seats & Translucent Pit only in certain areas

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XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 02:09 AM
Forget the translucency. Moveable perspective via hatswitch!!!! We're talking N.Y. Times Front Page news here! Such a cool feature, even folks who never before played flight sims would be buying it! Pan with mouse (or TIR), and adjust with the hat switch! It CAN be done, we HAVE the technology! I'm hyperventilating..., BRB....

a pilot head lean left and right is definatly needed along with the seat adjustments that wwii fighters and attack squadron had. Fuselage overstressing is a must too like wwii janes had

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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:18 AM
Just have the head moveable - look at how Aces High does it: you can move your head within plane-dependant limits, and map a default head position to each view direction.

Please oh pretty please.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:29 AM
Not quite. Partially translucent but possibly overlapping if the struts are thick enough. Hold your fist up in front of your face and look past your arm at the wall beyond. You see two wrists. If the struts are thin enough, we will have two (2) distinct see-thru struts for each real strut. But again, non see-thru when the struts are thick enough but with see-thru borders.

Moving Heads:: Great, everybody will fly online with a red jumpsuited and unibrowed pilot skin, heads bobbing up and down, side to side. Oh the humanity.

PS:: It was RBJ who pointed out that the struts that are horizontal to the eyebrows do *not* benefit from having two eye binocular vision. verygrimsmileyface.rbj

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:35 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:

- Moving Heads:: Great, everybody will fly online with
- a red jumpsuited and unibrowed pilot skin, heads
- bobbing up and down, side to side. Oh the humanity.

If you are suggesting ppl would move their head around constantly, yes, that`s what they`d do, in any plane. Just like real fighter pilots.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:50 AM
JG_Leadspitter wrote:
- Seat adjustments like janes wwii fighters has would
- be nice and help the problem, more so then
- transparent cockpit bars.

I agree ........ keep the transparent bars for the arcade games.

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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 05:07 AM
Bear, I am shocked at you. Your use of the pop slogan "arcade" shows you need a Patch, and soon too. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hold up your arm vertically in front of your eyes and look beyond to the far wall. You see two (2) arms. The image you see is may be more "real" than using a finger on stick during a tight computer dogfight to move your head which in "real life" was done using neck and torso muscles alone.

Anyway, moving head is yet another stick control to master in a computer battle. Your finger should be used to manage the throttle, trigger, flaps,...

....or sliding the trim or other similar sinful behaviors.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 05:09 AM
Never mind Bear, you just wanna find another button to use on the X45. I understand. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 05:34 AM
in response to the original post:
since its like this allready, they should at least have a smooth mouse movment in the options so it dosnt feel so abruptly when you move the mouse.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 06:50 AM
Yep, something should be done. I don't really have that much trouble seeing out of the 109, but that strip of metal blocking my view of my lift vector in the 190 is really, really off-putting.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 07:59 AM
If this sim cared about realism it would have transparent edges to the cockpit bars, because that's what pilots saw in real life (unless they had only 1 eye)

People talk about making a stupid new little thumbswitch option to move your head. Thats just another control we dont need, and has nothing to do with this problem.

We are talking about how a real pilot would only see half of the cockpit bars that he is obstructed with in IL2/FB (because he has 2 eyes)

People who don't want this are probably modelers who are too lazy.

The rest of us think it's a great idea.

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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 08:55 AM
When acting as a rear gunner, your POV does move around inside the gunner pit. But maybe these pits were made so that its possible?

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 09:11 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- If this sim cared about realism it would have
- transparent edges to the cockpit bars, because
- that's what pilots saw in real life (unless they had
- only 1 eye)
-

Agreed. "Harder" is not necessarily "more real". Any simulation of flight on one comparetively small monitor has to account for the limitations of the platform. Transparent edges do that.

cheers/slush

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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 02:13 PM
The ammount of work required to re do every single cockpit is just not worth having this ez settings feature, for those who cant play in realism settings you can always turn it off. I do like the idea of having a medium setting to encourage people to get use to full cockpit servers without padlock.

When you look at anything sitting in a 190 jug or p51 do you really see translucent edges I certainly dont just a wider field of view


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