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GH_Klingstroem
11-20-2007, 02:49 AM
For those of you that wathced my tracks flying the p51(using the radiator, prop pitch and gunsight view) and liked it.

There a more tracks and a couple of *.avi files to watch at the site now! Have a look at them!
All exept one are from Warclouds WF server. (in my opinion the toughest server to score kills in. VERY good pilots on both sides there!
Anyway, have a look!

EDIT: especially check the track where I get bounced by a Fw190 and reverse the situation and shoot him down!

EDIT: This is the new website for these files, edited dec 2 2008.

http://352ndfg.com/smf/index.php?topic=1214.0Best regards!

Schwarz.13
11-20-2007, 03:59 AM
Nice tutorials Kling! I don't fly the P-51 generally but i'm still kind of a novice so a few of questions:

1.) Nice tip trimming the A/C to keep your pipper steady - do you do that instead of pulling on the stick or in conjunction with pulling the stick?

2.) After an attack run do you trim the plane neutral again before zoom-climbing?

3.) I have my elevator trim mapped to my HAT switch - i push up to trim nose down and vice versa - is there a better way of doing this?

4.) Are you an airline pilot? "Hello my name is Klingstroem and i'll be your pilot for today..."? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Thanks

GH_Klingstroem
11-20-2007, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
Nice tutorials Kling! I don't fly the P-51 generally but i'm still kind of a novice so a few of questions:

1.) Nice tip trimming the A/C to keep your pipper steady - do you do that instead of pulling on the stick or in conjunction with pulling the stick?

2.) After an attack run do you trim the plane neutral again before zoom-climbing?

3.) I have my elevator trim mapped to my HAT switch - i push up to trim nose down and vice versa - is there a better way of doing this?

4.) Are you an airline pilot? "Hello my name is Klingstroem and i'll be your pilot for today..."? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Thanks

Haha Schwarz you were almost spot on on ALL ur 4 questions!!

1. I have a habit of trimming the plane in conjuction with the stick movement BUT when im diving on a target(and use the gunsight view) or zooming up after an attack I trim the plane constantly. I control the elevators ONLY with the trim when I make small corrections. A tip is to have the trim on buttons because a quick tap on a button makes a smaller correction than the smallest movement on a slider! I have compared! Use buttons! I have mine on the stop of the stick and use them at ALL time! A good tip is to almost let go of the stick every 3-4 secs to check where the nose wants to go. If she is properly trimmed she will stay where she was. Constantly pushing or pulling on the stick will make the nose bounce and will make it impossible to hit ur target!

2. After an attack and pull up slightly (BUT first 100prop pitch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and as the plane starts to go up I trim her to keep going up and almost let go of the stick and use the trim to 70-80 % trying to make a shallow loop because the harder you pull the more Gs u will create, thus bleeding more speed. Remember that speed is the only advantage the P51 has. Once you loose it, Dive and get out of there!!! Trim the A/C and let the A/C fly her self and use the stick only to help her trough the manouvers! (I am talking about elevator trim now)
Aileron trim I use only when I have taken hits in the wings!

3. I think the trim on the hat switch is good as long as it is a button with a noticable feel of a click to let you know how much u use it. I use my hat switch to look around since I dont have track IR.

4. Yes I am an airline pilot... Or I was, Now I have left that company I was working for and am currently looking for a job back home here in Sweden... Well guessed! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Haigotron
11-20-2007, 11:52 AM
Excellent tutorials! I too don't fly the P-51 that much, but you really got my interest piqued once more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

At the very beginning, I am assuming the initial conditions need to be that you are at a much higher altitude, what do you usually do when you engage a target higher than you? Do you dive out of there and attempt it again when you come back at a higher altitude?

I find the trickiest part must be at the top of the loop, where the chances of stalling/spinning are the highest.

Also, just to confirm, do you immediately switch to PP 50% at the beginning of the dive?

GH_Klingstroem
11-20-2007, 01:01 PM
Going over the top isnt that tricky if you have trimmed her to go over the top on her own u can just follow her through the manouver and help her out slightly with the stick. Flaps will help as well! Just remember to raise the again as soon as the nose is pointing down again!

If I am engaged with an enemy that has more E than I do I will dive away. Thats the big adavantage you will have with this fighter. YOU chose when to fight and when not to!
If engaded with someone that is at the same energy level as you there are a few factors you need to think about. How much fuel do you have left? If you are below 60 USgals of fuel (the tank behind your left shoulder) you can successfully outturn 190s. I do it daily, it works!
If its a 109 however and he has the E advantage or the same E, then for God sake keep the speed up!! You can only outturn him at high speed. The safest you can do though is just to put the nose down, dive and leave him! Again, YOU chose when to fight, NOT him!

He might call u coward or whatever, then just kindly reply to him, that "you promise to not use your speed advantage if he promises to not use his turn advantage" and that should be the end of that discussion!

In a dive I will set 50 prop pitch( as you can see in the tracks) when I pass 450-500km/h indicated airspeed NOT BEFORE! and if you continue flying level afther the dive select prop pitch 80. With time the speed will be down to 600km/h and then and first then do you set 100 prop pitch!
Hope that helps a little!

MrMojok
11-20-2007, 03:27 PM
I just watched all the movies. As usual, very nice!

GH_Klingstroem
11-20-2007, 05:39 PM
Thx buddy! Did they give u any tips?

MrMojok
11-20-2007, 06:39 PM
Oh yeah, I have several of your posts about it saved into a text file, and all your tracks downloaded.

What I got from the AVI movies was the idea of trimming to keep the target in the gunsight. I suffer from the nose bouncing around a lot when I fire, because of trying to hold steady with the joystick. I may have to re-think my trimming strategy. I have an x-52 and on the throttle I use two of the little wheels for elevator and rudder trim. I've gotten pretty good at it, but i don't know that I could use the wheels to trim the plane properly to keep the target in sight during a zoom attack.

Also I found your stick settings, and I was thinking of trying them. I must have tried a dozen different stick settings for the P-51, and as strange as it sounds, all 100s feel the best to me. But I think I will give yours a try.

Bearcat99
11-20-2007, 08:19 PM
Great stuff Kling.. my one critique is.. if you are using fraps try to make the video a bit bigger.. For me it opened up as a tiny box and when i enlarged it it wasnt that clear.. take a look at Dart's videos.... and secondly.. Watch those popping Ps... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

GH_Klingstroem
11-21-2007, 03:44 AM
I am using a program called growler guncam to record... Hm I cant chose the quality it will turn out or the size. But will check if Fraps will make it better... Problems is that I dont want the file become to big because people might have a slow connection (ie I made the file smaller by worseing the quality)...

Mr Mojok do you have an external program that controls your X-52 stick settings? If you do, I think it will overrride the settings you have in Il-2 and then it doesnt matter at all what you have put in IL-2. If you do, change the stick settings there and dont bother with the stick settings in il2! Also check my post above! Try to have the trim on buttons as havning in on a slider will make the trim too senstive even! At least on my MS FF2 stick! Try it!

UKD_T.H.O.R.
11-21-2007, 05:23 AM
Hi Klingstroem,

I didn't get the chance to watch your new videos or tracks yet, but I'll do that when I get back home.



Just a few words too about flying the Stang:


Somewhere I fould out that 95% PP must be used to acchieve the fastest speed on the deck. I mainly fly on 95% when I'm not diving or doing something else.
When in a dive, wait untill your speed goes over +/- 500kmph, than lower the PP. I must say I don't lower it bellow 75% in a dive, but in a discussion with Boemher this supposedly helps allot.


Mustang can be a deadly weapon if flown well, if you know your opponents dissadvantages compared to your plane, you have more options than just dive away if there is someone above you. There aren't that many people that know how to fly Doras well, or 190s.

Mustang holds one trick in it's sleave and that is - combat flaps. It can be done if you keep your ball centered and I have done it on multiple occasions - out turn 109s. Especially in B/C variant. Offcourse, it's down to the pilot after all, but not all online pilots know their ride that good. Basicly if you're not sure in your piloting skills, dive away when you see a bandit above you. Other than that - there is no reason why you should run away in a Mustang.

If you're one of those people intimidated by .50 cals strength. DL the video from my signature. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GH_Klingstroem
11-21-2007, 07:08 AM
q
Originally posted by UKD_T.H.O.R.:
Hi Klingstroem,

I didn't get the chance to watch your new videos or tracks yet, but I'll do that when I get back home.



Just a few words too about flying the Stang:


Somewhere I fould out that 95% PP must be used to acchieve the fastest speed on the deck. I mainly fly on 95% when I'm not diving or doing something else.
When in a dive, wait untill your speed goes over +/- 500kmph, than lower the PP. I must say I don't lower it bellow 75% in a dive, but in a discussion with Boemher this supposedly helps allot.


Mustang can be a deadly weapon if flown well, if you know your opponents dissadvantages compared to your plane, you have more options than just dive away if there is someone above you. There aren't that many people that know how to fly Doras well, or 190s.

Mustang holds one trick in it's sleave and that is - combat flaps. It can be done if you keep your ball centered and I have done it on multiple occasions - out turn 109s. Especially in B/C variant. Offcourse, it's down to the pilot after all, but not all online pilots know their ride that good. Basicly if you're not sure in your piloting skills, dive away when you see a bandit above you. Other than that - there is no reason why you should run away in a Mustang.

If you're one of those people intimidated by .50 cals strength. DL the video from my signature. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You are absolutely right that u must wait until around 500km/h befor coming back on prop pitch in a dive! I come back to 50% beacuse I have noticed that will give quite a significant boost in acceleration but only if you do it at around 500km/h (or between 450-550).

A reason why you have to do thisin the P51 is beacuse they screwed up the complex engine management for the p51. The p51 actually has a CSU (constant speed unit), that means if you set it an one specific RPM, it will stay there! In game not so! In a dive the RPM will increase(which is wrong) so you will have to come back on PP to maintain a good RMP (idealy within the green area on the tachometer which is up to 2700 RPM. Just be sure to increase the RPM as soon as you are not diving anymore! Maybe to 75-80!
I dont dont have ANY problems with hitting power of the .50 MG. Check out my last clip. Its vs Il2s just to demonstrate how hard the .50s hit. I de-wing them one after another...( and the il2 is the most armored A/C in the game).... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

UKD_T.H.O.R.
11-21-2007, 07:27 AM
.50 cals can hit realy hard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I know that you know how to use them, this was pointed at those that doubt their strength.

Just watching your videos, not bad. I use slightly more agressive tactic - first pass is allways a headon if there is slight offset in our flight path. After that zoom up follows.


Also it is worth to note that you DON'T NEED RADIATORS. Use boost only when realy neessary and fly mainly on 100% without WEP. If she overheats drop PP back to 80% for faster cooldown, or leave it as it is, she'll cool off in 10-15 seconds. You have 2 minutes of overheating time anyway before engine dies, so nothing to worry about. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There is one occasion when it's good to use radiator on setting 2 - when you're climbing/sneaking on someone.

One more thing worth remembering is when diving - reset your rudder trim to only 2 or 4 clicks to the right. This also helps in gaining speed more rapidly.

msalama
11-21-2007, 07:38 AM
Thank you Sir, much appreciated. Now I'm a bomber guy first and foremost, and thus suck so bad as a fighter jock that even the likes of Brain32 would probably shoot me down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But thanks anyway, because it's always nice to see someone knowing what they're up to...

Thus, let me courteously offer you a big http://koti.welho.com/msalama/S2.bmp for this tutorial of yours!

PS. Hey Brain, a j/k surely that one there...

GH_Klingstroem
11-21-2007, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by msalama:
PS. Hey Brain, a j/k surely that one there...

Whats a j/k??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

GH_Klingstroem
11-21-2007, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by UKD_T.H.O.R.:
.50 cals can hit realy hard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I know that you know how to use them, this was pointed at those that doubt their strength.

Just watching your videos, not bad. I use slightly more agressive tactic - first pass is allways a headon if there is slight offset in our flight path. After that zoom up follows.


Also it is worth to note that you DON'T NEED RADIATORS. Use boost only when realy neessary and fly mainly on 100% without WEP. If she overheats drop PP back to 80% for faster cooldown, or leave it as it is, she'll cool off in 10-15 seconds. You have 2 minutes of overheating time anyway before engine dies, so nothing to worry about. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There is one occasion when it's good to use radiator on setting 2 - when you're climbing/sneaking on someone.

One more thing worth remembering is when diving - reset your rudder trim to only 2 or 4 clicks to the right. This also helps in gaining speed more rapidly.

Im with u all the way THOR!! Especially the part about the radiator!

msalama
11-21-2007, 11:32 AM
Oh! Fölåt mig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif J/K = a joke.

buzzsaw1939
11-21-2007, 12:45 PM
Dangit kling... Your costing me money! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

I invested in a 22 inch ws so I could find those little dots with iron crosses you find so easily, it helps, but now I have to get a bigger v-card as my frame rate is jumping all over!

Seriously, from one pro to another, well done!!

love your tracks, I don't know why others don't post this stuff, it gives a better picture of what online play is about, and is quiet helpful to people with no real time experience.

right on about the CEM! I'm so set in my ways thats it's hard for me to adjust, but I love the sim, and it's worth it!

I would get a real kick out of flying with you,.. maybe someday, if I ever get this system stuff working right. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

GH_Klingstroem
11-21-2007, 01:41 PM
I didnt really get reason why I am costing u money tho??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif I am glad I am!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

U ever on warclouds?? Find me and my squad mates there!

Urufu_Shinjiro
11-21-2007, 02:26 PM
Also I found your stick settings, and I was thinking of trying them. I must have tried a dozen different stick settings for the P-51, and as strange as it sounds, all 100s feel the best to me. But I think I will give yours a try.

Actually, this is common with the X52, I think most users get the best performance out of 100% on the pitch and roll. Be sure to get il2 sticks ot il2 joycontrol, that way you can put a nice curve on the trim on the rotaries and get more accuracy out of them, by default they are waaaay too twitchy.

buzzsaw1939
11-21-2007, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
I didnt really get reason why I am costing u money tho??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif I am glad I am!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

U ever on warclouds?? Find me and my squad mates there!

Well.... After watching your tracks, I realized my system wasn't up to par, and I want to have as much fun as you are!

I have to blame somebody don't I? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I wonder if it's good enough to go in and be an observer? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

GH_Klingstroem
11-21-2007, 04:24 PM
Haha, but then how can you see what the graphics look like on my tracks? You dont see the graphics I have on computer when u run them on ur computer right??

buzzsaw1939
11-21-2007, 07:16 PM
Now thats a good question?....I never thought of that, the graghics are fine, I just get a lot of frame jumping at the res I'm useing, mid range, (the only one that works with my card) too much stretch! and 128 mgs.

But you know.... I swear, last night, watching one of your tracks, it was smooth! I wonder what that means? now I'm going to have to go watch it again. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

buzzsaw1939
11-22-2007, 12:22 AM
Now I am confused!... It is smooth, I wonder if it's my TIR thats pulling it down, in game or tracks, it's jerky, especially if I'm over mountains cloads and trees, but your whole track was smooth, anybody got any ideas? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

bluedragon1950
11-22-2007, 03:08 AM
Hi T.H.O.R.,

MUSTANG movie: very impressive. Question: what is your gun convergence setting? I saw that sometime you shoot from 150-200m away and still hurt the other plane badly.

Thanks

GH_Klingstroem
11-22-2007, 03:16 AM
Bluedragon I can answer that! if you have a convergence of 150 u should start firing at say 200-250 and as you approach ur target (usually very fast) the target will fly into your your convergence range..

So first you will see you ur shots spread out over the target, probably his wing, and has you get closer, you will see bullets become more concentrated on ur target and as the target ends up wihtin 150 wgen you close in ur bullets will start to spread over the target again. IT WORKS very well!!
I fly at witn gonvergence at 130-150m and its lethal!! You just have to wait till the right moment to fire!

UKD_T.H.O.R.
11-22-2007, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by msalama:
Thank you Sir, much appreciated. Now I'm a bomber guy first and foremost, and thus suck so bad as a fighter jock that even the likes of Brain32 would probably shoot me down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But thanks anyway, because it's always nice to see someone knowing what they're up to...

Thus, let me courteously offer you a big http://koti.welho.com/msalama/S2.bmp for this tutorial of yours!

Thanks for nice comments. Many people found ma manual helpfull, as it's pretty much the only one covering manual bomb release. Glad you liked it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Originally posted by bluedragon1950:
Hi T.H.O.R.,

MUSTANG movie: very impressive. Question: what is your gun convergence setting? I saw that sometime you shoot from 150-200m away and still hurt the other plane badly.

Thanks

There is a thread about my movie in Move maker's section - here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/65710358/m/2251014406


You will find all the details there. Also my settings and tips for flying the Stang. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

funkster319
11-22-2007, 10:31 AM
Thats great stuff GH http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifespecially as it comfirms my personal prop revelations http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/120...321040806#1321040806 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1201040806?r=1321040806#1321040806)

However a few questions just to firm things up for me.


1.PROP PITCH : - As you will see from my post, I understand the princples of prop pitch etc but only really just got to grips with using them in combat -how do you know to reduce your Prop pitch to 50% at 500 KPH? Is this just a rough idea and a general princple i.e 50% in dive, 80% cruise, 100% climb and therfore applicaboe to other AC? or is it something more specific to the P51?

2: TRIM:- Someone mentioned using rudder pitch of 2-4 right to increase speed? Whats the princple/theory behind this...is it to counter torque or something?

3:RADIATOR:- Never really understood RADs except to use for cool downs. I'm I correct in thinking closed = less drag=better speed. Open= cooler=more drag=help reduce speed/energy? If so why open to RAD2 to catch up to someone.

4. GUN SIGHT RET:- How do you know the P51 Reticle = 150meters? and an IL2 is 15meters etc? Wouldn't that put the target at 100metres away? Where do I get this information for other planes Gunsights etc

I normally have my Convergence set to about 400 but might reduce it now...I do tend to engage at a greater distance thatn you but I can see where an advantage may lie in having your convergence set at a mid distance and "pulling" the target into your Converge point rather than htting them with it at a distance.

Again many thanks, things are jsut starting to come together for me and this helps comfirm i'm on the right tracks and give me other lessons to learn too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GH_Klingstroem
11-22-2007, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by funkster319:
Thats great stuff GH http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifespecially as it comfirms my personal prop revelations http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/120...321040806#1321040806 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1201040806?r=1321040806#1321040806)

However a few questions just to firm things up for me.


1.PROP PITCH : - As you will see from my post, I understand the princples of prop pitch etc but only really just got to grips with using them in combat -how do you know to reduce your Prop pitch to 50% at 500 KPH? Is this just a rough idea and a general princple i.e 50% in dive, 80% cruise, 100% climb and therfore applicaboe to other AC? or is it something more specific to the P51?

2: TRIM:- Someone mentioned using rudder pitch of 2-4 right to increase speed? Whats the princple/theory behind this...is it to counter torque or something?

3:RADIATOR:- Never really understood RADs except to use for cool downs. I'm I correct in thinking closed = less drag=better speed. Open= cooler=more drag=help reduce speed/energy? If so why open to RAD2 to catch up to someone.

4. GUN SIGHT RET:- How do you know the P51 Reticle = 150meters? and an IL2 is 15meters etc? Wouldn't that put the target at 100metres away? Where do I get this information for other planes Gunsights etc

I normally have my Convergence set to about 400 but might reduce it now...I do tend to engage at a greater distance thatn you but I can see where an advantage may lie in having your convergence set at a mid distance and "pulling" the target into your Converge point rather than htting them with it at a distance.

Again many thanks, things are jsut starting to come together for me and this helps comfirm i'm on the right tracks and give me other lessons to learn too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ok funkster.
First of all. The CEM in the game is all screwed up! Especially so for the P51. In real life you wouldnt play around with the prop pitch as we do in game. The p51 and many other US planes had constant speed propeller. That is a device that will maintain the propeller RPM at a constant RPM. In game that is not working. When you dive for example IRL the RPM would stay at the RPM u have selected (should be in the green arc ie up to 2700 RPM) but in the game the RPM will increase as the speed comes up and that means that u must come back on the prop pitch to keep the RPM in the green arc. If the engine is constantly running at 3000RPM u will overheat pretty fast AND the propeller will act as an airbrake at high speed!

The 500km/h speed at which I chose to select PP50 in a dive is based on many test from side when I tried to find the best speed to change the PP from 100. If I dove at 100PP i would find my engine running at VERY high RPM so sooner o later I would have to come back on the PP anyway. If you do this at 500km/h you will get a huge boost i the acceleration when diving BUT as soon as u level out 50PP is too low to keep the speed up so u must again select a higher PP, I chose 70-80 when flying level at very high speed (700-850km/h indicated)Why the game works like this I dont know, but years of flying the p51 only has taught me this! It works for the P51 in the game!

Trim must be set for the rudder to keep the ball centered. It will move left when speed is increasing and right when speed is decreasing OR if the plane is pulling negative G! This is beacause of tourque and slip stream over the fuselage. Elevator trim must be used at all times so u dont have to correct by pushing/pulling on the stick to keep the gunsight on a target. Withoput elevator trim the nose will bounce and make it difficult to aim!

Radiator is there to cool the engine. With it open u will lose about 25km/h max speed which i alot. I will close it in combat when I need all speed I can get and open it when i am not around combat or when I am climbing slowly... But with proper Prop pitch managment u wont need it much!

The circle in the p51 represents ca 150m. When a fighters wingtips (assuming that most fighters are roughly the same size) are touching the circle it will be at 150m so if you wait till the target is that close u will see ur bullets shred him apart! The 0.50 MG in the game seem to lose power beyond 300m to try to get them closer, MUCH closer! say around 100-200m

Set up a mission in quick mission builder with u in a p51 and convergence 150m and say 8 friendly 109s and 190s and practice Boom and Zoom and wait till they are just before touching the circle before u fire!
Try it and let me know!
cheers!

La7_brook
11-22-2007, 11:17 AM
Whats this P51 support group http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

funkster319
11-22-2007, 11:40 AM
Thanks GH, you have helped cement some of my ideas and at least now I know i'm on the right tracks and not just making a hash of CEM..so I'm a happy man.

As I don't always fly P51's I have played with prop pitch before and noted at least for some spits that 45% = dive , 75= crusie, 100% constant so rather similar results really.

Is there anyway to find out the different sizes of Gun reticles for different AC?

Also am I also right in my calculations/understanding that if my gunsight = 150m then a plane with a wingspan of 15meters fills the circle tip to tip , it will be 100meters away?

Thaniks again mate, good stuff.

buzzsaw1939
11-22-2007, 12:11 PM
Kling... I don't know if you have any time with manual props, but your doing a pretty good job with adjustment for in game, (and your explanations!) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

GH_Klingstroem
11-22-2007, 02:12 PM
I do have a bit of time flying piston planes IRL with Constant speed propellers, although now a days I have flown only turboprop, just going over to fly Jet within a few months... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Thx Buzzaw! Hope the tips are helping u!

GH_Klingstroem
11-22-2007, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by funkster319:
Thanks GH, you have helped cement some of my ideas and at least now I know i'm on the right tracks and not just making a hash of CEM..so I'm a happy man.

As I don't always fly P51's I have played with prop pitch before and noted at least for some spits that 45% = dive , 75= crusie, 100% constant so rather similar results really.

Is there anyway to find out the different sizes of Gun reticles for different AC?

Also am I also right in my calculations/understanding that if my gunsight = 150m then a plane with a wingspan of 15meters fills the circle tip to tip , it will be 100meters away?

Thaniks again mate, good stuff.

Funkster Im not sure about the sizes of the enemy A/C but I do know that when a 109 or 190 have their wingtips at the circle, they are at aprox. 150 +- 10m and that holds for most fighters of that era!

This also means that when the fighter in ur gunsiight is half the size of the circle it will be at 300m

Capt.LoneRanger
11-23-2007, 02:09 AM
Very excellent videos and great BnZ skills! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

On a little sidenote, though, when the wingtips touches the circle, the distance to the target is 150 yards, not 150 meters. If you set the convergence to that point, you'd have to use 175meters.

But in order to not confuse somebody: The convergence set to 150 is much better on the P51, because you close in on an enemy so rapidly that if pull the trigger at 175m you start hitting hard at 150 or even lower.


My personal experience with the sticksensitivity is, that with a setting of 100 overall you need to do as in the video: Trim or die. If you lower the input values, you lose maneuverability in turnfights and furballs, but if you do that in a P51 you're toast anyway. I made some very good experiences with a very low exponential curve at the input-values. It also makes aiming a lot easier and lowers the risk of breaking a wing.

My 2 cents. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm glad there are so many people eager to show others that this plane is a very deadly fighter if you know how to handle it.

GH_Klingstroem
11-23-2007, 04:43 AM
You are 100% correct Loneranger we shouldnt mix up yards and meter BUT 150 yards is equal to 137m not 175m. SO if the gunsight is 150 we should set our convergence 140m. BUT if the gunsight is 150m that is equal to 164 yards...

Now I am confused! Anyone?

By the way, I met you once on Warclouds I remember you and I ended up 1 vs 1. Was fun!

I also yesterday again on Warclouds entered a turnfight with a Fw190, dont be afraid to so, and it was obvious that this guy knew what we was doing. We did 11 complete turns when I finally started gaining on him... Thats how close a P51 is to a Dora in turnfights. That time I had 50% fuel. Had I had less I would easely have outturned him!

funkster319
11-23-2007, 05:27 AM
Thanks GH. Good man http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Clipper_51
11-23-2007, 05:45 AM
If the engine is constantly running at 3000RPM u will overheat pretty fast AND the propeller will act as an airbrake at high speed!

S Kling! My understanding is that at 100% prop pitch, the engine can hit max revs and the prop bites the air least. No? So running at 100% prop pitch would cause the least "braking effect," as opposed to running at, say, 50%.

In RL, Mustang pilots would adjust their prop pitch to 100% on landing to be able to hit max power in the event of an abort. I see running pp at lower than 100% is used to keep rpms low and to slow the plane down in a descent as more air is being bitten. I've never lowered it to get better performance from the engine

GH_Klingstroem
11-23-2007, 07:08 AM
Clipper in the dive u must come back on the prop pitch to accelerate in the dive not to slow the plane down in the descent! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Clipper_51
11-23-2007, 06:06 PM
S! Kling - I'll wing up next visit to WC.

Just a bit of support for my proposition. May not work in RL, nut seems to hold true in IL-2.

From the following webpage: http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/cemguide/powersettings.htm (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/%7Echapman/il2guide/cemguide/powersettings.htm)

Combat
Bandit, two-o'clock high! Now it's time to put that high-performance engine to work. Remember, when increasing power in CSPs first increase rpms and then throttle. Combat has a lot of special needs and is where engine management becomes the most dynamic. Mostly what is required is the highest power settings in order to maintain an energy advantage (speed and altitude). The highest power setting is 100% rpm and 100% throttle, not forgetting to adjust mixture and supercharger according the aircraft's needs. You can also use WEP judiciously, as previously described. The art of engine management in combat is keeping your engine in a condition to give you high power at the critical moments when you really need it. Let the other fellow burn up his engine instead! Some planes, such as the FW-190, don't suffer from a tendency to overheat and recover quickly if they do. Others, such as the Hurricane MkI, overheat easily and can take well over a minute to cool to normal temperatures even with power reduced and radiator flaps fully open. It is a good idea to learn how long you can overheat your engine before its performance degrades, that is, it starts to lose its ability to provide full power output. There are different degrees of overheating (no pun intended) and damage, and the longer you keep power output high during overheating the worse it will get, the longer it will take to cool off, and the more quickly permanent damage will result.
Combat often calls for developing maximum speed. Logically enough, the power setting for maximum speed is the same as the setting for maximum power. As has already been described, this setting is at 100% throttle (or full WEP, as you wish) and 100% rpm, with radiator flaps closed and of course the appropriate mixture and supercharger settings. Apparently it is necessary to spend some effort here explaining what we already know. It has been said many times that higher speeds can be achieved by reducing the rpm setting. I have heard of various settings from 60% to 90% suggested, and it is claimed that with time the speed creeps up to as far as 40 kph of what was obtained at 100%. It is explained that the propeller takes a bigger bite out of the air and thus develops more thrust. In short, this is hogwash. I have not done extensive testing, but this explanation holds no ground at all based on theory, as is hopefully clear from the earlier discussion on prop pitch, and I have never reproduced it. I cannot speak for earlier patched versions, but my in-game testing indicates that reducing rpm while at full speed (in horizontal flight) from 100% (redline rpm) causes the appropriate reduction of power. This may not result in speed loss, if the airplane is not held in level flight. If during level flight you reduce power, the aircraft's first response is to start losing altitude, and because the angle of attack remains constant, airspeed may remain constant or even increase with the slow descent. If the power is drastically reduced, the airplane will also begin to quickly slow down. However, it is understandable how a pilot may come under this false impression of increased speed, even if level flight is maintained. Increasing to full power does not provide instant full speed, and at the hight top speeds acceleration is low and it can take some time to develop full speed. If the pilot does not wait for full speed to be attained in level flight and then reduces the rpm setting, the plane may still not yet have achieved the airspeed corresponding to this (reduced) power setting, and continues to slowly accelerate to that airspeed. To truly compare, make sure you maintain level flight at full throttle and rpm, and wait to be sure you are no longer accelerating. Then, play with the rpm setting and at the same altitude and while maintaining level flight, see if you can improve the top airspeed. If you do, please send me tracks to demonstrate the effect.

Descent and dives
It should be obvious that in a controlled descent you want low power settings. If you are trimmed for level flight and want to descend, all you have to do is power back, usually by reducing the throttle. The aircraft will begin to descend without significant increases in speed, and shortly after the power reduction may begin to make slow a oscillation by trading airspeed and rate of descent. (This is called a phugoid oscillation, and aircraft can be held around the trimmed angle of attack by small stick deflections at the onset of the oscillation.) If you wish to descend more quickly, you can reduce the angle of attack by nosing down, although this will increase the airspeed. If you are in for a long descent, such as when coming out of high-altitude cruise for a landing, you can reduce both your throttle and rpm"”there is no sense in keeping your rpms higher than necessary. However, for short-term descents, reducing throttle is sufficient. The reduced power setting depends simply on how quickly you want to descend. A lower power setting corresponds to a higher rate of descent.

Dives have already been covered to some extent above in the discussion on combat, especially overspeeding. It is especially important for dive-bombing and strafing and rocket runs to remember than you can give yourself more time to line up the target by reducing the throttle. In strafing and rocket runs this may not be desirable if flak or enemy planes are present. For dive-bombing, it is essential to reduce throttle during the dive to prevent not only overspeeding but also exceeding the maximum airspeed the airframe can withstand.

Summary: reduce throttle as desired, reduce rpms for long controlled descents; don't forget mixture and supercharger if descending from altitude

DaimonSyrius
11-23-2007, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by funkster319:
4. GUN SIGHT RET:- How do you know the P51 Reticle = 150meters?

Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
SO if the gunsight is 150 we should set our convergence 140m. BUT if the gunsight is 150m that is equal to 164 yards...
Now I am confused! Anyone?

According to the P-51 Pilot's Manual (http://books.google.com/books?id=SfwqCTY9I6MC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=70+mils+%22k+14%22&source=web&ots=hMNG-yWSL4&sig=YXFjpPeODDBme_am3LN8j_WPloc), the circle of the fixed sight is 70 mils (milliradians) wide, while the diamond ring of the gyro sight can be adjusted for several wingspans and distances: 200 yards through 600 yards.

- About the fixed sight and milliradians: There's a good, simple explanation of mils and the very basic trigonometry involved here (http://www.donsgames.com/donsgamesfm/viewtopic.php?p=7356&sid=31d08c9dd873845d67611db69c15d3c8)

A diameter of 70 mils for the gunsight circle means that an object which is 70 units wide will fill the circle when seen at a distance of 1000 units. This is a linear proportion of distance to apparent size, and it's the same proportion for whatever length units (feet, meters, yards) we use, as long as we're using the same unit for width and for distance. The formula is:

Wingspan = gunsight mils * Distance / 1000

So, for instance, an aircraft with a wingspan of 35 ft will span half a circle at 1000 ft. The same aircraft at 500 ft will take the whole diameter of the circle.

We can use the same formula to find out what wingspan would fill the 70 mil gunsight at 150 meters:

Wingspan (m) = 70 mils * 150 m / 1000
Wingspan = 10.5 m

Now, according to the Object Viewer in IL2-46, the FW190-D9 is 10.5 m in wingspan, while the Bf109-G6 is 10.6 m.

The simple way to check if everything fits is, well, checking it:

http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/P51-GS-FW190-150m.jpg


- About the gyroscopic gunsight adjustment:
When I started using the K-14 sight on the P51-D20, I was annoyed by not knowing how the distance actually changes when using the 'Increase distance' and 'Decrease distance' controls. At what range does the gyro sight start when it is switched on? By how much does each 'click' increase or decrease? Again, the simple -yet tedious- way of checking is... you guessed, checking http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

This is a FW190-D9 at 200 m, the gyro sight has just been engaged, wingspan set for the plane, distance hasn't been modified:
http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/P51-Gyro00-FW190-200m.jpg

Same FW190-D9 at 250 m, distance increased 5 clicks:
http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/P51-Gyro05-FW190-250.jpg

FW190-D9 at 300 m, distance increased 10 clicks:
http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/P51-Gyro10-FW190-300m.jpg

Thus, it would appear that:
-The minumum range (closest distance) at wich the gyro diamond ring can be set is 200m
-Each step (each click) in increasing or decreasing distance corresponds to a 10 m change.

Finally, according to this K-14 Manual (http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/s7/K-14-Gunsight.pdf), for a proper range adjustment, the gyro diamonds have to be positioned so that the target aircraft's wingtips are touching the inner tips of the diamonds

I hope this wasn't too dense a read... blame my rusty English if it was http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cheers,
S.

buzzsaw1939
11-23-2007, 10:32 PM
Clipper.. What Kling is doing, is like kicking your car into overdrive while going down hill and giveing it power, more speed with less rpm, in the cars case without over drive, high rpm would bog down your speed, just like a flat pitch on the prop would, hope that makes sense! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

fordfan25
11-24-2007, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Now thats a good question?....I never thought of that, the graghics are fine, I just get a lot of frame jumping at the res I'm useing, mid range, (the only one that works with my card) too much stretch! and 128 mgs.

But you know.... I swear, last night, watching one of your tracks, it was smooth! I wonder what that means? now I'm going to have to go watch it again. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif your PC is not haveing to use the massive CPU power when watching tracks. just GPU

Clipper_51
11-24-2007, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Clipper.. What Kling is doing, is like kicking your car into overdrive while going down hill and giveing it power, more speed with less rpm, in the cars case without over drive, high rpm would bog down your speed, just like a flat pitch on the prop would, hope that makes sense! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Yes, I believe that is his point. I just don't know if it truly works, although it may because of the game design.

A courser prop pitch, while concurrently lowering rpm, also serves as a "brake" on the aircraft. You may, may, get a brief bit of acceleration, lowering pp in a dive and slamming the throttle forward, I doubt it would be much greater than running fine pitch at full rpm though and also slamming the throttle forward.

slipBall
11-24-2007, 05:37 AM
Hey Kling....was wondering what controller's you perfer

Fighterduck
11-24-2007, 06:06 AM
nice videos, great tutorials...but: what to do when the situation is inversed and the D is in your six? what the many movements or tactics to use to try to escape if:

it has height advantage ?
it has no tadvantage ?
it's coming in front of you ?

GH_Klingstroem
11-24-2007, 07:04 AM
Ok many questions to answer here... Nice!!

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Ok Clipper</span>: I confirm that you CANNOT do this in real life, beacause in real life you cannot have full power and low RPM. That would simply blow the cylinders apart. IRL you would have to come back on power as well as RPM. IRL when increasing power you must first increase RPM and then power in order not to blow the cylinders. Reverse when deacreasing power. First come back on power and then RPM.

IN GAME however this is not modeled and we have to work with what we have. In the game we can run full power and prop pitch all the way to zero if we want. So IN THE GAME in a dive u WILL get a boost in acceleration by coming back on prop pitch (PP) to 50 when passing ca 500km/h. Assign a button for PP50 and click it at that speed. AND u will cool the engine at the same time. However as soon you level out PP50 is too low and u must bring up the PP to 80 or so UNTIL your speed is approaching 600km/h indicated (assuming u went much faster in the dive! then u can bring up to PP100 again)
If you dive quickly and the speed never goes above 500 you might as well leave the PP at high numbers!
Coming back on the PP to 50 in a steep dive has THREE main advantages

1. You will get a boost in acceleration at the same second as you bring it back to 50 if done at 500km/h.

2. You can run at 110% power with WEP engaged without being even close to overheating AND you can therefor close the radiator fully to get an extra 30km/h indicated.

3. You delay the overheat for a while which is crucial when running with someone on ur 6.

If someone follows you in a dive(stupid tho, You WILL leave every single BF109 quickly behind you, even K4) you have accelerated faster than they have and when running on the deck at say 750(a few secs after pulling out of max speed dive) U might eventually overheat, say after a minute or so, Remember you are after all running with 110% power and wep and radiator closed BUT the guy behind you is allready overheating most probably. 109s are allready far behind you and 190 will overheat too. U can fly with overheat for a while. When I am running FAST and overheat, I will disengage WEP and open up radiator to fully open till overheat message is gone and then close raiator again. Remember now that IF I had made my initial dive at PP100 and never cam back on it, my overheat message would have showed up MUCH earlier!!

The above procedure will give you that extra speed for a short while that you need when disengaging from a dogfight for whatever reason we might have. Remember that in this fighter you have the option to disengage when u want to! YOU pick the fight when YOU feel like it! and if the odds are against you, just dive away at say 850km/h indicated with the above procedure!

In close in combat I will fly at 100PP!! In general when my speed is below 400km/h indicated I will use 100PP (expep when crusing around in non combat area and there is no immidiate threat around where I will keep my RPM at 2500-2700)

Clipper you are a superb P51 pilot and I dont feel its appropriate for me to give you tips how to fly it. We fly good together as it is!

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Fighterduck</span>: I can successfully turn with ANY 190 in the game. I will do this till my wingman shows up and if I am alone the first one to disengage will get shot down.
Now, in the P51 u rarely need more than 50% fuel. If you see that you have started to use your rear tank behind ur left shoulder u have allready gotten in to the situation where u can out turn all average 190 pilots. If your rear tank is below 50 US gallons you can usually outturn 190 in 2-3 turns. Its fun becasue the never expect it. BUT you must use almost FULL trim NOSE UP and combat flaps, sometimes even take off flaps for a few secs...

Goiing headon with a Fw190 or any axis AC is a big NO NO! I usually say to my squad mates that if they realise its a headon, push on the stick and dive slighly below his nose and hope for the best. Its difficult to hit you then. Once you have passed each other and you have speed ZOOM UP and make a half loop and at the top LEVEL out and use flaps if you need to stay level up there and aim to fly opposite heading TOWARDS him BUT pull gently and look at what he is doing! If he turns to get in behind you after ur initial pass and THEN tries to follow you up u know that you will win and and u have him. The reason is this.

U pulled up to get altitude and u are losing speed to get altitude which is ALWAYS to ur advantage.
He at the same time turned first and lost some speed and THEN decided to zoom up. He wont get as high as u and will many times stall below you and then u have the option to dive on him.

Many times I will just dive away for a cloud. If the 190 guy is clever he will not follow. He knows what you know, both the P51 or the Fw190 are vunerable down low. Thats where u will see whether is experienced or not. If he stays up he is good. If he follows, look for clouds and lose him!

Remember that YOU must be good at seeing his E-status. Noone can help you with that. Thats one of the most important tips ever!

109s I will NEVER fight close in. I will BnZ them. MAYBE MAYBE if I am VERY VERY low on fuel i will go close in. U can safely turn with a late model 109 at high speed if you have wingmnan on his six. Just make a descending turn at high speed and his elevator will lock up and keep that turn going till ur wingman takes him out or makes him break...

Anyway I cant give out too many tips since this will not benefit my newly started p51-sqaud
<span class="ev_code_RED">http://www.50calibersixguns.com</span>
But there are many things to do. Dive away is always the safest but not the funniest trick.

Here are my P51 stick settings btw. They work perfectly for me and my Microsft FF2 stick with twist rudder! Notice very very low numbers at the beginning of the elevator curve and for the rudder. This way I can make very small movements with AC and the nose doesnt bounce for ever as you can see on my tracks.

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=1
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 0 3 9 16 25 34 46 59 75 100 40
1Y=3 0 1 3 6 12 21 35 51 67 91 60
1RZ=12 0 1 2 3 9 16 28 41 70 100 80
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0


Cheers

Fighterduck
11-24-2007, 07:39 AM
nice. thanks for the reply!
well i find myself always in trouble when fighting agains Doras. It seems that in all situation they got always more speed and energy than me. No important what move i make, that FW will always be in my six...probably i make a huge amount of mistake during combat...that the only answere i can give me hehe...when im in a p-51 all axis planes can shoot me dow easely...i try always to keep myself fast and hight as possible but...im most i the cases i make a mistake just at the beginning of the combat i think. It must be that: i noticed that at the 99% of my dogfights if i make a wrong move to engage the ennemy, well i will loose at 100%. Its ridiculous but i can loose also if i got speed and height advantage....sigh.
But on the other hand i think the things would be differents if i fly in full real without external views. In this case i could have more chances that my moves will be more effective because the guy cant fallow me with the f6 view and he could loose me. The thing is that i dont have any track ir..and fallow the ennemy with mouse and fly with the other hand isnt that funny...but thats not an excuse i know.

slipBall
11-24-2007, 07:46 AM
(quote)
Microsft FF2 stick with twist rudder



I had you pegged as a foot rudder man http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif



(quote)
on the other hand i think the things would be differents if i fly in full real without external views



Bingo!....absolutely

Clipper_51
11-24-2007, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Fighterduck:
nice. thanks for the reply!
well i find myself always in trouble when fighting agains Doras. It seems that in all situation they got always more speed and energy than me. No important what move i make, that FW will always be in my six...probably i make a huge amount of mistake during combat...that the only answere i can give me hehe...when im in a p-51 all axis planes can shoot me dow easely...i try always to keep myself fast and hight as possible but...im most i the cases i make a mistake just at the beginning of the combat i think. It must be that: i noticed that at the 99% of my dogfights if i make a wrong move to engage the ennemy, well i will loose at 100%. Its ridiculous but i can loose also if i got speed and height advantage....sigh.
But on the other hand i think the things would be differents if i fly in full real without external views. In this case i could have more chances that my moves will be more effective because the guy cant fallow me with the f6 view and he could loose me. The thing is that i dont have any track ir..and fallow the ennemy with mouse and fly with the other hand isnt that funny...but thats not an excuse i know.

_______________________________________________

Keep trying. You probably hit the nail on the head when you said you lose the fight at the start. You really have to concentrate on a proper "set-up" when entering combat in a Mustang. I usually look for speed (over 250 mph IAS) and a higher altitude. If I can only have one of those, I'll take speed.

As Kling mentioned, don't bother with knife fights against human-piloted 109s, unless your fuel is low and you have buddies around. It's a low percentage fight for you. You want high percentage engagements.

On the contrary, go after the 190's at every opportunity. The lower your fuel state, the more aggressive you can be at manuevering with them.

S Kling! I got your points re: engine mgt. I'll see you on the server!

buzzsaw1939
11-24-2007, 12:17 PM
Ok.... I thought I would practice in a 190, or 109, so when I go on line I could give you guys a run for your money! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But I don't seem to have any CEM in them, anybody know why? Checked all the settings I know of, nothing! help please. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

GH_Klingstroem
11-24-2007, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Ok.... I thought I would practice in a 190, or 109, so when I go on line I could give you guys a run for your money! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But I don't seem to have any CEM in them, anybody know why? Checked all the settings I know of, nothing! help please. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

That is very correct Buzzaw you will NOT find it the german fighters. They had an device installed called Kommandogerät that will automatically set the correct prop pitch and mixture for you. Those clever germans! In a 109 or a 190 you will find only one lever and that is for throttle. Everything else is automatic!

buzzsaw1939
11-24-2007, 08:17 PM
Thats very interesting... Because I just read up on the 109e-4, 4b, 7b, 7z, they have manual prop pitch! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

M_Gunz
11-24-2007, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Clipper.. What Kling is doing, is like kicking your car into overdrive while going down hill and giveing it power, more speed with less rpm, in the cars case without over drive, high rpm would bog down your speed, just like a flat pitch on the prop would, hope that makes sense! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Yes, I believe that is his point. I just don't know if it truly works, although it may because of the game design.

A courser prop pitch, while concurrently lowering rpm, also serves as a "brake" on the aircraft. You may, may, get a brief bit of acceleration, lowering pp in a dive and slamming the throttle forward, I doubt it would be much greater than running fine pitch at full rpm though and also slamming the throttle forward. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Coarser (from coarse like rough as opposed to course like road) pitch turns the blade more
INTO the flight path. How is that a braking action?

M_Gunz
11-24-2007, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Ok many questions to answer here... Nice!!

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Ok Clipper</span>: I confirm that you CANNOT do this in real life, beacause in real life you cannot have full power and low RPM. That would simply blow the cylinders apart. IRL you would have to come back on power as well as RPM. IRL when increasing power you must first increase RPM and then power in order not to blow the cylinders. Reverse when deacreasing power. First come back on power and then RPM.

How much difference IRL does torque on the prop from load make?
500+mph in a dive should drive a prop with less than a lot of power to keep up.
It also makes for tip stall more in a faster turning prop than slower = more torque for faster.

I have seen analogies of this with my old 4-speed small engine cars, what gear I could change
to depending on going up or down hill at the same speed and engine reaction. Last thing you
want in small engine is to lug that engine but down hill lugging occurs at lower revs than on
level and uphill requires more revs or trouble. That is all about torque on engine.

buzzsaw1939
11-24-2007, 09:54 PM
It's all about manifold pressure, Kling has expiremented and found blowing an engine from too much pressure isn't modeled, and gives him an advantage over axis aircraft, I think that's pretty cleaver! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif As he said, it won't work in rl.

M_Gunz
11-24-2007, 10:06 PM
It works the same with 109's on manual pitch only they don't go as fast.
But they sure don't blow due to full power at low revs.

For all that matter we don't have the prop gearing strip from things like slamming to low revs
at high speed for prop-braking in any plane either. It's beyond the modeling as is dynamic
stress esp for damaged structural members or even multi-directional stresses like rolling
hard while using elevator at max maneuver speed (okay I forget the Vxxx nomenclature just now).

Add:
Also manifold pressure is not engine pressure. It makes a big difference to engine pressure
but not the whole story which is why I write about torque on the engine that opposes piston
movement. The less opposition of piston, the more you can push the motor just as the car.

buzzsaw1939
11-24-2007, 11:26 PM
Gunz.. I understand,and agree... But thats getting too technical, in rl we fly by manifold pressure, in balance with the prop, with what ever the design calls for, super chargers will increase that, but only to the design limitations.

You mention the 109's manual pitch! like I said above, some are suposed to have, but they don't seem to in game! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

GH_Klingstroem
11-25-2007, 05:43 AM
The 109E series had both automatc and manual prop control, meaning that some left factory with automatic and some left the factory with manaul prop control (early E- series tho). The later series ie F-K had only automatic. The Kommandogerät as it is called showed up just in time for the E-series. Oleg chose to model the in the game with the Kommandogerät. IRL it give quite a nice advantage since u have less work in the cockpit in the heat of combat but in the game most players will cruise around at 100 power and 100 prop pitch anyway and NEVER change. But then again, the same people are having proplems with overheating and are blaming Oleg for poor FM..

buzzsaw1939
11-25-2007, 11:53 AM
Thanks Kling.. That clears up my cunfusion! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Persecutor_352
11-25-2007, 12:06 PM
Kling, and all the other posters who contributed to this thread,

May I offer my thanks and appreciation. This thread has been very informative and helpful; what a forum ought to be. Your tips, analysis, and aids have been extremely useful and thought provoking.

Thanks again, and

Blue skies!

Tator_Totts
11-25-2007, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Persecutor_352:
Kling, and all the other posters who contributed to this thread,

May I offer my thanks and appreciation. This thread has been very informative and helpful; what a forum ought to be. Your tips, analysis, and aids have been extremely useful and thought provoking.

Thanks again, and

Blue skies!


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

RED_BEAR8
11-25-2007, 05:59 PM
nice post i see all your videos were very informative they are of alotof help for me thanks

M_Gunz
11-25-2007, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
The 109E series had both automatc and manual prop control, meaning that some left factory with automatic and some left the factory with manaul prop control (early E- series tho). The later series ie F-K had only automatic. The Kommandogerät as it is called showed up just in time for the E-series. Oleg chose to model the in the game with the Kommandogerät. IRL it give quite a nice advantage since u have less work in the cockpit in the heat of combat but in the game most players will cruise around at 100 power and 100 prop pitch anyway and NEVER change. But then again, the same people are having proplems with overheating and are blaming Oleg for poor FM..

Way back in the start we were told 109's had a cutout for automatic in case something broke.
But not ALL 109's, just most variants.

Is this not true?

GH_Klingstroem
11-26-2007, 12:57 AM
M_Gunz I am not actually 100% sure but I think u are right! In game we can disengage the automatic device and according to some people that gives an advantage when climbing. Im not sure tho. Its very very easy to overrev and blow the engine to bits!

BTW I have added one more track after request, where I get bounced by a 190 and reverse the situation and shoot him down. Check it out!
Cheers!

Bearcat99
12-01-2007, 06:15 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Schwarz.13
12-01-2007, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

+1 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1901021216)

Stangace
12-15-2007, 12:32 PM
can someone help me with setting stick settings? i have no idea how and where to set them. thanks.

dieg777
12-16-2007, 12:27 AM
have a read of this to understand your stick inputs and how to set it up in the game

http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&op=show&kid=261

then download and install this and you can do the changes easily without having to go into the game

http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=1021

good luck

GH_Klingstroem
12-24-2007, 03:12 AM
BUMP... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

buzzsaw1939
12-24-2007, 11:39 AM
Hey Kling.. I'm comeing for ya! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I've been practicing in a 190, and am actually getting pretty good in it, I thought maybe with my experiance, you and I could put on a real show, but,...I can't get by the visual problem! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I know the AI are unrealistic and I like the challenge against veteran or ace, but I spend more time running than fighting because I can't find them till I see tracers going by!

So if your on line some day, and you see a 190 flying around like he's lost, that be me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Avont29
12-24-2007, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
For those of you that wathced my tracks flying the p51(using the radiator, prop pitch and gunsight view) and liked it.

There a more tracks and a couple of *.avi files to watch at the site now! Have a look at them!
All exept one are from Warclouds WF server. (in my opinion the toughest server to score kills in. VERY good pilots on both sides there!
Anyway, have a look!

EDIT: especially check the track where I get bounced by a Fw190 and reverse the situation and shoot him down!

http://www.50calibersixguns.com/Downloads.html

Best regards!

nice tracks Kling, but aren't you dropping your prop pitch a little too low? When you dive you drop your prop pitch as low as 55%, that brings your RPM down a lot man, what you want to go is keep it within 3000RPM, thats the combat engine setting for p-51. Nice tactics also, look forward to flying with/against you on warclouds someday.

Xiolablu3
12-24-2007, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Thats the big adavantage you will have with this fighter. YOU chose when to fight and when not to!


Excellent Kling, I remember just after I learned about energy fighting and having a dispute with this CHinese guy who absolutely insisted that the i16 was overmodelled and a better fighter in the game than the Bf109E because it could turn tighter and as such win in a one-on-one dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

He invited me to his server so that I could show him why the Bf109 was a better fighter, but he insisted that we fly with 25% fuel!!

We merged and then began the fight and so I started to fly off and began to climb. Intending to get enough height and then B&Z him to death. But because of his insistence on 25% fuel, I kept running out of fuel before I could get enough height!!

As such he 'beat' me twice, as it forced me to fight in a WW1 style dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I'm sure by the end of it he STILL belived that the i16 was overmodelled because he beat me in a Bf109E. He just didnt seem to 'get it' at all.

No matter how much I insisted that biplanes dont win air to air combat any more, I couldnt get the message across.

If we had both had proper fuel loads, he would have been B&Zed to death and not have had a chance. I would simply have flown off until I was around 2000m above him and watched him flounder as I swooped down on him and loaded him with 20mm MGFF.

The point I am trying to make is the same I have quoted from you. Being able to choose whether or not to fight is a MASSIVE advantage in war and in the sim. USE IT PEOPLE!

DOnt feel that you HAVE to fight that Spitfire, when you are in a FW190. If you are not in an advantageous position, do what real pilots did, bug out! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Viper2005_
12-24-2007, 03:04 PM
RE Prop pitch in dives

I think that in high speed dives, thrust is pretty insignificant when compared with gravity, and therefore from a performance point of view, prop pitch doesn't matter that much.

Say your aeroplane weighs 9000 lbm, and is in a 30º dive.

The component of gravity acting in the direction of flight is 4500 lbf.

Now let's say we're diving at 375 mph TAS, with 1700 bhp and 80% prop efficiency

1 hp = 550 ft-lb/s

therefore

1 hp = 1 lbf * 375 mph

375 mph ~ 603 km/h, which is hardly fast for a diving Mustang, especially since we're talking about TAS in this context.

Therefore the prop is producing a thrust of 1360 lbf, which is only 23% of the total. The faster we go, the less significant the engine becomes.

It therefore follows that in high speed dives prop pitch isn't going to make very much difference to aircraft speed, and therefore you might as well set your prop pitch to optimise engine cooling. Afterall, even if you dropped to 0% prop pitch and this halved your thrust, you'd have taken a hit of around 11.5%, which of course would be ever-decreasing as you accelerated.

At higher speeds or with steeper dive angles, this hit becomes smaller still.

In addition, when you reduce rpm, you extract the rotational kinetic energy of the prop and the engine and convert it into extra thrust, giving a short duration thrust boost. There is probably scope for optimising this

***

In summation then:

If your TAS is high, and/or the dive is steep, gravity is going to be the main source of thrust, so you can set your prop pitch for cooling without paying a significant performance penalty.

NB - if engines and cooling systems were more accurately modelled then there would be no great advantage in playing with prop pitch from a cooling point of view, so it could be argued that this is "gaming the game". However, since very few people actually fly their aeroplanes within the limitations published in the POHs, I'd like to nip that particular argument in the bud by observing that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!

Von_Rat
12-24-2007, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Thats the big adavantage you will have with this fighter. YOU chose when to fight and when not to!


Excellent Kling, I remember just after I learned about energy fighting and having a dispute with this CHinese guy who absolutely insisted that the i16 was overmodelled and a better fighter in the game than the Bf109E because it could turn tighter and as such win in a one-on-one dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

He invited me to his server so that I could show him why the Bf109 was a better fighter, but he insisted that we fly with 25% fuel!!

We merged and then began the fight and so I started to fly off and began to climb. Intending to get enough height and then B&Z him to death. But because of his insistence on 25% fuel, I kept running out of fuel before I could get enough height!!

As such he 'beat' me twice, as it forced me to fight in a WW1 style dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I'm sure by the end of it he STILL belived that the i16 was overmodelled because he beat me in a Bf109E. He just didnt seem to 'get it' at all.

No matter how much I insisted that biplanes dont win air to air combat any more, I couldnt get the message across.

If we had both had proper fuel loads, he would have been B&Zed to death and not have had a chance. I would simply have flown off until I was around 2000m above him and watched him flounder as I swooped down on him and loaded him with 20mm MGFF.

The point I am trying to make is the same I have quoted from you. Being able to choose whether or not to fight is a MASSIVE advantage in war and in the sim. USE IT PEOPLE!

DOnt feel that you HAVE to fight that Spitfire, when you are in a FW190. If you are not in an advantageous position, do what real pilots did, bug out! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


how could he FORCE you to take 25 percent. you should of just took what you wished and let him take what he wished. if he didnt like it ,,well tough.

buzzsaw1939
12-24-2007, 04:14 PM
Viper.. I'm confused by your last sentence, I didn't see anyone throwing stones, what were you refering too? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Viper2005_
12-24-2007, 05:19 PM
In my 2nd to last sentence I pointed out that since the manipulation of prop pitch to control engine cooling doesn't add up IRL and that therefore taking advantage of one's ability to use it for this purpose might be considered to be an exploit.

My last sentence was intended to tackle that line of argument.

buzzsaw1939
12-24-2007, 05:32 PM
Thanks Viper, for the reply, I understand now! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Avont29
12-24-2007, 06:50 PM
yea Viper thanks for that info

didnt know that, i will use it to my advantage now


what other secrets are there to CEM that i dont know about?

GH_Klingstroem
12-25-2007, 06:20 AM
Well I assumed someone would come to that conclusion sooner or later.. So if the CEM we have in game is screwed up as it is we have to use what we have! IRL u wouldnt be able to decrease prop pitch as we do and still have 100 power, HOWEVER in game it works and it gives u a speed advantage(in steep dives only tho) so USE it! IRL u couldnt get killed and then take a new AC and fly again. In game u can, dont u use that function? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

GH_Klingstroem
12-25-2007, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Hey Kling.. I'm comeing for ya! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I've been practicing in a 190, and am actually getting pretty good in it, I thought maybe with my experiance, you and I could put on a real show, but,...I can't get by the visual problem! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I know the AI are unrealistic and I like the challenge against veteran or ace, but I spend more time running than fighting because I can't find them till I see tracers going by!

So if your on line some day, and you see a 190 flying around like he's lost, that be me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Hey Buzzaw that would be nice! I would like that! My name online is Pegasus_Kling!

Xiolablu3
12-25-2007, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Thats the big adavantage you will have with this fighter. YOU chose when to fight and when not to!


Excellent Kling, I remember just after I learned about energy fighting and having a dispute with this CHinese guy who absolutely insisted that the i16 was overmodelled and a better fighter in the game than the Bf109E because it could turn tighter and as such win in a one-on-one dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

He invited me to his server so that I could show him why the Bf109 was a better fighter, but he insisted that we fly with 25% fuel!!

We merged and then began the fight and so I started to fly off and began to climb. Intending to get enough height and then B&Z him to death. But because of his insistence on 25% fuel, I kept running out of fuel before I could get enough height!!

As such he 'beat' me twice, as it forced me to fight in a WW1 style dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I'm sure by the end of it he STILL belived that the i16 was overmodelled because he beat me in a Bf109E. He just didnt seem to 'get it' at all.

No matter how much I insisted that biplanes dont win air to air combat any more, I couldnt get the message across.

If we had both had proper fuel loads, he would have been B&Zed to death and not have had a chance. I would simply have flown off until I was around 2000m above him and watched him flounder as I swooped down on him and loaded him with 20mm MGFF.

The point I am trying to make is the same I have quoted from you. Being able to choose whether or not to fight is a MASSIVE advantage in war and in the sim. USE IT PEOPLE!

DOnt feel that you HAVE to fight that Spitfire, when you are in a FW190. If you are not in an advantageous position, do what real pilots did, bug out! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


how could he FORCE you to take 25 percent. you should of just took what you wished and let him take what he wished. if he didnt like it ,,well tough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah I realise that now, but at the time I was being polite as it was his server and there were 3 of his mates there too.


It really didnt matter to me whether I won or lost the 'duel', I was trying to get the message across in a freindly way.

It was his loss if he carried on thinking the i16 was a better fighter anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Persecutor_352
01-15-2008, 11:09 PM
Just a *Bump*, because this is an excellent thread and shouldn't get overlooked.

Bearcat99
06-29-2008, 02:13 PM
bump

GH_Klingstroem
06-30-2008, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Persecutor_352:
Just a *Bump*, because this is an excellent thread and shouldn't get overlooked.

Hey buddy! Nice to see this therad still being active! Just to let u know. Our website has been closed down so the tracka and everything are not be found there anymore... Where can I link them now? Àre they still on your server Persecutor?
cheers

Bearcat99
09-21-2008, 11:41 AM
Bump

Prefontaine
11-30-2008, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Persecutor_352:
Just a *Bump*, because this is an excellent thread and shouldn't get overlooked.

Hey buddy! Nice to see this therad still being active! Just to let u know. Our website has been closed down so the tracka and everything are not be found there anymore... Where can I link them now? Àre they still on your server Persecutor?
cheers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I would love to see these vids but they aren't available -- where can I find them!?

GH_Klingstroem
12-02-2008, 04:39 AM
hehe this thread pops up every 6 months...
Uhm, I heard from an old squad mate that he had them all, will contact him now and see what I can dig up!

GH_Klingstroem
12-02-2008, 04:44 AM
Aaahaaa I just found all those videos!

http://352ndfg.com/smf/index.php?topic=1214.0

p51srule
12-03-2008, 06:54 AM
Love the videos, I learned easier ways to fly the p51. But there should be a video on escorting and heavy takeoffs.

P51srule http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

"Speed is life in a dogfight"

SeaFireLIV
12-03-2008, 08:01 AM
Had a bad experience in the later P51 online the other day in an online campaign.

We were excorting above B17s at around 20000 feet (B17s had lowered to around 15000 feet) when they were attacked by bogeys. We were higher and dived in to attack. I felt I was going too fast and pulled up ever so slightly...

Almost immediately I blacked out, and she was still diving, I really thought that was it, but gradually she began to nose up and darkness gave way to greyness. I struggled for a few long seconds to level out and reduced the greyness. Finally it got light and I was now at around 2000 feet! I was way below the formation and battle raging overhead.

Suddenly, I was shot at from behind. I was hit and smoking slightly. the bogey overshot and I took a pot shot. the bogey was smoking slightly but dissapeared. My P51 was handling like a pregnant whale; wobbling, shaking. I tried building up speed, but she just didn`t seem to be responding.

Finally, I was being hit again by the same bogey and my wing fell off, no time to bail.

Not a nice experience. Never had so much trouble with blacking out before, even after levelling out.

Guess I need to see some of those tracks and tutorials. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

GH_Klingstroem
12-03-2008, 08:38 AM
trim when blaced out seafire... will get ur nose up again... thats what every else is doing!
Or so I have heard... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
12-03-2008, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
trim when blaced out seafire... will get ur nose up again... thats what every else is doing!
Or so I have heard... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I did trim, but a bit late which I think is why I came out so low.

Looked at some of your tutorials and it`s great stuff. Learnt a lot already. For instance I never knew about bringing the prop pitch so low in a P51. Also, you aptly demonstrate just how effective a P51s guns can be when fired at correct convergence.

Thanks.

Bearcat99
06-27-2009, 12:43 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif