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XyZspineZyX
12-12-2003, 09:06 PM
First off, let me start by saying I'm a fighter pilot. Flying a bomber is just too much work! But ever notice while flying online that you rarely see bomber pilots playing? This is especially true in Dogfight games. It is such a shame though. It's not truly a WWII simulation without lots of bombers and I know several people who are bomber flying enthusiasts who forsake IL-2 Forgotten Battles for less capable games. They complain, and I think rightly so that fighters have all the advantages in IL-2 FB.

To begin with, they complain that there is no real penalty beyond points for sloppy attacks that end in the fighter being downed just to immediately respawn and come back to finish off the sloppy job started on the same bomber. One bomber pilot even commented on how on the same mission, he shot down the same fighter jock four times! As far as the argument that the opposing pilot loses points, this doesn't seem to stop them. After all, with the wide variety of computer and internet capabilities out there, the points system is regarded as meaningless, at least when it comes to online play.

The second point I've heard bomber pilots make is that their bombs do not make a dent in runways or cause the true havoc that bombs cause in real life. What's with dropping the mega-bomb from a PE-8 right in the center of the runway only to see fighters rolling through the crater only seconds later without even a dip in the plane's wing?! I know runways get repaired, but in 30 seconds?!

Third complaint kinda falls back to a degree on the first complaint. If a fighter gets chewed up by a bomber and can't make it back to base, the fighter jock can simply ram the bomber and take the bomber with him. I know the Russians did this to a limited degree early on in the war, but it was far from a major tactic used by anyone in the European conflict. Unfortunately in IL-2 FB, the tactic is used again and again. The fighter jock can quickly respawn and take off again while the bomber has mutli-engines and a plane that needs care and better surfaces to take off and land in.

I don't know how hard it would be to technically do this, but maybe if they designed in some "time out" periods for those who get shot down by or ram bombers. I'd propose something like 3 minutes before the fighter could spawn if simply shot down. If a fighter rams a bomber, a time out of 5-7 minutes sounds good as well.

All I know is that we'd have a much richer game if we could give the bombers closer to a fair shake in this game. This would attract leagues of bomber pilots that would take like, skill to shoot down and add enormously to the fun of the game. I'd pay extra for this add-on or fix or whatever you'd want to call it. Of course, this is just my opinion, so what do you think?





Luckyboy = senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2003, 09:06 PM
First off, let me start by saying I'm a fighter pilot. Flying a bomber is just too much work! But ever notice while flying online that you rarely see bomber pilots playing? This is especially true in Dogfight games. It is such a shame though. It's not truly a WWII simulation without lots of bombers and I know several people who are bomber flying enthusiasts who forsake IL-2 Forgotten Battles for less capable games. They complain, and I think rightly so that fighters have all the advantages in IL-2 FB.

To begin with, they complain that there is no real penalty beyond points for sloppy attacks that end in the fighter being downed just to immediately respawn and come back to finish off the sloppy job started on the same bomber. One bomber pilot even commented on how on the same mission, he shot down the same fighter jock four times! As far as the argument that the opposing pilot loses points, this doesn't seem to stop them. After all, with the wide variety of computer and internet capabilities out there, the points system is regarded as meaningless, at least when it comes to online play.

The second point I've heard bomber pilots make is that their bombs do not make a dent in runways or cause the true havoc that bombs cause in real life. What's with dropping the mega-bomb from a PE-8 right in the center of the runway only to see fighters rolling through the crater only seconds later without even a dip in the plane's wing?! I know runways get repaired, but in 30 seconds?!

Third complaint kinda falls back to a degree on the first complaint. If a fighter gets chewed up by a bomber and can't make it back to base, the fighter jock can simply ram the bomber and take the bomber with him. I know the Russians did this to a limited degree early on in the war, but it was far from a major tactic used by anyone in the European conflict. Unfortunately in IL-2 FB, the tactic is used again and again. The fighter jock can quickly respawn and take off again while the bomber has mutli-engines and a plane that needs care and better surfaces to take off and land in.

I don't know how hard it would be to technically do this, but maybe if they designed in some "time out" periods for those who get shot down by or ram bombers. I'd propose something like 3 minutes before the fighter could spawn if simply shot down. If a fighter rams a bomber, a time out of 5-7 minutes sounds good as well.

All I know is that we'd have a much richer game if we could give the bombers closer to a fair shake in this game. This would attract leagues of bomber pilots that would take like, skill to shoot down and add enormously to the fun of the game. I'd pay extra for this add-on or fix or whatever you'd want to call it. Of course, this is just my opinion, so what do you think?





Luckyboy = senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2003, 09:19 PM
Bombers work better on some servers that others. Bombing can be encouraged w/o changing the game at all.

1. No map Icons (radar) (this allows the bombers to fly outside the normal Hot-spots and thus avoid fighters)

2. No external views (see above)

3. Scripted servers (Bombers in scripted servers make more of an impact than fighters)

4. Well thought out maps w/ plenty of ground targets concentrated in known areas. This allows bomber pilots to rack up points and glory that fighters cannot match. It also helps to have thse bombing areas outside of normal flight routes so that fighters don't stumble on bobmers w/o acctually looking for them.

5. Bomber pilots should fly together and request escort. (Two bombers in tight formation are four times as deadly as one)



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XyZspineZyX
12-12-2003, 09:29 PM
Hey LuckyBoy,



I agree with your statement that runways should be unusable when bombed. This is currently being used in the online game Fighter Ace 3.5 and works very well.

One of the main targets of the RAF and Luft airfiled bombing was to impair runways. This is one of the tactics often used in FA 3.5. Next you take out AA and last you drop troops and take over the airfield so you can subsequently use.

As far as a "timeout" i'm not sure on that one... That might be hard to do. Sounds like a good idea but in real life, once you've died in combat, I doubt you're coming back. This is well done is America's Army, games are kept to a time limit. Once a squad has all been eliminated, the round ends.

Points are awarded not only for kiling opfor but for being apart of the winning team. No points awarded when dead. Thus weeding out the potential kamakazi. Points are kept and add to a player's honor, server's allowed to play on depends on a persons honor. So ace's will be with aces and noob's with noob's.



So that's my opinion on the obove statements.


-The Chad

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2003, 10:01 PM
Valid points except that most of what you describe is online and in dogfight servers only. The only exception to that (sort of) is the destruction of runways which FB doesn't support (for one programming reason or another).

All that aside, in single, co-op, and properly developed dogfight servers, bombers have a significant place.

In one dogfight session on the FAST server, a group of 4 guys flew He-111's on an attack against a designated target (scripted of course). I intercepted them in my P-47 along with help from a P-51. We managed to get all of the guys (they weren't in a tight formation) but not before three of them dropped a significant bombload against the target. They nearly destroyed the entire target area and came within 10% of winning the mission. That last 10% was later fufilled by the same group of bombers...one of them, too crippled to fly...managed to crash land straight into the final target (the control tower). They won the mission.

Now in that instance, the bombers were definately serving their purpose...and I've seen plenty of other situations where they have done so as well.

The only thing were lacking is more bombers in this game...and those are coming! Attack craft and bombers are under development or already coming in the expansion pack.

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XyZspineZyX
12-12-2003, 10:40 PM
I'd love to make some really nice missions that would make bombers and fighters work together, however, I can't find any documentation nf the dedicated server. Is there any documentation out there for doing "scripted" missions on a dedicated server?

-WhtBoy.

P.S.
Feel free to abuse me if this is too off-topic and/or I've been staring at the doc file since I d/l'ed the server.

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2003, 10:59 PM
FLy VEF
http://66.114.65.249/vov/site/main.htm

Bombers make a huge impact

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2003, 11:59 PM
Well, first I gotta say...

What is it about "Dogfight Server" that you don't understand? Bombers, by definition, are somewhat out of place there.

Now, they CAN be worked in, with ground targets, a little thought to the map situation, multiple airfields, adequate field spacing and other things you find on scripted servers. The more often you fly these servers (and the less often the arcade, two-field, close proximity, easy flying, no-cockpit DF servers), the more often you'll find better environments to ply your trade.

The criticism that bombers don't fly for mutual protection is apt. Get together with some like-minded bomber fans and wreak havoc together. Also, call for escort: some of us fighter guys WILL do it.

I fully agree with the problem with runway cratering.

Outside of that, it's all up to the players, unfortunately. There's really no way to stop "spawning" fighters from coming back up in new planes. The only way to avoid this is to fly co-ops only, where you get one plane and one life, and one shot at the bombers.

The unsuitability for bomber players in FB has a bit to do with the fact that it is so "user-selectable" (for marketing reasons that are admittedly hard to argue against) and that most players use it to make the game more arcade, less historical, and even unfriendly to those who attempt to create a historical/realistic environment. I really feel we'd have a better sim if there were more formatting and less catering to those with less attention span. But, that's just me.

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 01:06 AM
For what it is worth today, (cost wise, if you can find it), the sim "B-17II The Mighty Eighth" comes as close to simulating the needed environment for tactical bombers than any program I am aware of on the market.

In order to be successful with having that dimension of the bombers, you have to have a campaign, or at least some form of a scripted fight where by there is a purpose for having the bombers in the arena in the first place.

Most sims are written for the fighter types because it requires less programing and scripting to organize a dog fight than it does to organize a bomber command to identify a target and then take it out.

As old as it is, "B-17II The Mighty Eighth" is still the ONLY bomber command sim there is. True it was never a finished product and it is far from the graphics of Oleg and company, but that game was built around the bomber aspect, and not the fighter aspect of the war.

The nurturing and caring for 12 planes and 120 guys thru 30 missions into the continent to affect the end of the war is all based on the players ability to do his job in a bomber and not a fighter. Until that ideal is carried through in other game programmers, the world may never see another sim come as close to what bombers are all about than "B-17II The Mighty Eighth".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a flame war of this software is better than that software. They are both good for what they do and quite frankly, I see "B-17II" loosing ground here. I'd like to see Oleg and company pick up the ball where Hasbro, Microprose, Infogrames, and now Atari have not. There is much in the old game that Oleg and company could farm and grow on.

There is a whole community of guys that would jump on a full blown WW2 simulator that catered to the needs of the bombers with the fighters thrown in for good taste.

Oleg and company please don't make the mistake that writing a program for bombers is as easy as it is writing for a fighter. Get your hands on a copy of "B-17II" if you can and tear it apart and see what it's made of, then use that information and build your bomber programing from the ground up.



Message Edited on 12/13/0312:08AM by Snuffy_Hadden

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 01:40 AM
I think that with servers like Slammin's online, a step in the right direction has already been made. A script is active that gives red and blue teams a limited number of planes and pilots.
On both sides, there are static planes on the ground that, if destroyed, also reduce the remaining planes for that team. I don't know how often I witnessed and participated (in) bomb attacks that helped a team win the game. If properly used and with some fighter cover, bombers are the key to victory.
The icons are set so you can see and identify a friendly plane up to 6 km, while the icons on an enemy only kick in at 1 km - this quite helps bombers to fly in undetected or only being attacked by minimal resistance.

I have to agree on one thing 100% - if it weren't for the static planes, the aaa and a few vehicles, there wouldn't be anything good to bomb. So a damageable runway would really be nice. The craters should remain for about 4 - 5 minutes, and planes that move through them or spawn in them get damaged and/or destroyed. After that time period the craters disappear.

And of course, except for the He-111, there are no real bombers currently fully modelled, so external views for use of the B-17 and Pe-8 are a have-to-be-on, until we get something good to work with (B-25 for example, maybe it will make it into the add-on; also a fully flyable B-17 is needed).

Wow, I hope this all doesn't sound like random babbling now /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

S!



- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 01:58 AM
The main reason I don't fly bombers online in dogfight rooms, is that 90% of the times I get downed, I am beeing rammed.

Now, I have nothing against beeing shot down ( more than average /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ), but after flying towards target for 15 minutes you really get pi**ed /note: da**, I was beeing censred there, that's a first/ by someone ramming you.

VEF or VOW is another matter. If you ram someone, then u are dead and out of the mission, so those guys are a little more careful, thus it is more fun to fly bombers there.

Have no solution to this, a longer time-out for ramming a bomber just feels like a bad idea, have not a better idea though, I can just not see how we can have more bombers in dogfight rooms. We just have to play more co-ops.

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 02:01 AM
could use a tb3 if it had jato /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
ive been doing more mud moving online of late /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


whineingu /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 02:15 AM
This is an interesting thread, a LOT of people have complained about the deadly gunners in bombers:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=ztqqk

Personally I am a "Fighter Jock", and I luv flying bomber escort, in COOPS and DF. Get 3 or more bombers in formation, with me and another good fighter pilot as escort, and attacking EA are gonna be burning as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. The respawn in DF is a big problem as you have pointed out, and I too have suggested in this very forum a "timeout" feature for DF servers, but no response from anyone at 1C:Maddox, so I think we can count on never seeing that implemented barring some miracle. Best solution now is COOPS or online wars like VEW, VOW or Forgotten Wars.

S!

SKULLS_LZ

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 02:30 AM
Online I only fly bombers, preferably He-111.
Unfortunately lately often it's not in the planeset of a lot of servers /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I've been connecting and immediately disconnecting a lot lately because of the lack of mudmovers.

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 03:39 AM
Hey some good thoughts here. Some possible ways to rectify the problem bombers suffer on servers:

1. To disable Ctrl-F2 and F6 views with external views enabled. Way too much of a cheat and couple that with WW view in planes with cockpits.
2. Develop more internals for bomber types
3. Set up decent maps with realistic airfields for the bombers away from front lines. Some gits have the fighters away from front lines and the bomber fields right on front lines. Very daft.

and
4. to deal with death in general, there should be a time of respawning penalty for pilots getting killed. Say at least a minute or 2. This then doesn't make it totally inconvinient for players but will make for some value to staying alive unlike now where fighters over commit and press home bad tactical situations cause they know if they get killed then they just respawn and get airborne again quickly. Even worse on airstart quake fest servers which totally suck.

Another element I would love to see in FB in general is some form of AI ground controllers for both off line and online. With some comms to help cause then in full real you would be vectored to intercept planes and not spend most of your flight time searching for bandits. Offline you could do away with icons and map icons and have some idea of where to fly if an enemy flight is nearing your sector. The Ground Controller AI could prioritise targets for you based on if they think the enemy raids are headed for criticle targets or not. Maybe not in FB but it would be nice and definately a must for B of B

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 04:33 AM
I respect the ideas of the thread starter, but also disagree with everything but the runway crater idea. In "real life", fighters outnumbered bombers, so to have the quick respawn is a decent representation of the fact that when one fighter went down, like a swarm of bees, another one went up to replace it. While the ramming idea is a little lame, in "real life" if the pilot knew his only chance from keeping this thing from bombing his homeland was ramming it, he would hit the throttles and do his duty.

I was chasing a Pe-8 one evening, and realized I was out of ammo, and he was less than a minute from dropping a 12000lb bomb on my base. I hit the throttles and put the prop through his tailfin. I'd do it again any day. I prevented a catastrophic bombing run of my base.

Why should I feel bad about that? I would expect anybody else to do it, as a last resort of course. I never do it without having exhausted every other option and knowing that it is almost to my base and I have no time to respawn. Other then that, I'll bail and respawn.

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 04:19 PM
- in "real life" if the pilot knew his only chance from
- keeping this thing from bombing his homeland was ramming
- it, he would hit the throttles and do his duty.


Absolute crap. The only thing more important back then than bringing one bomber down, was to get back alive and go up again and again to attack and destroy many more bombers. Only a badly wounded pilot that was sure that he definitely won't make it back might have thought about a ram attack, but in most cases if hurt that badly, the pilots weren't capable of much more other than bailing or dying.

So don't give me that hero-thing, there is nothing heroic in your flying style, it's just a bad excuse for your mediocre combat skills. A good pilot with the proper plane in FB can down a Pe-8 or B-17 easily. Only those who tend to kill more of the air around the target than hitting the enemy itself but desperately want to destroy the target, resort to lame ram attacks, knowing that they are a lot faster back in action than the bomber.

Try this, big man: "Sometimes survival is it's own reward."

If I ever see you ramming me or one of my fellow bomber pilots on one of the two servers im mostly on, I'll make sure it was your last visit there, understand?

S!



- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 08:43 PM
Future, I sort of share your outrage on one level, but it's hard to demonize "taran" tactics when they were historical.

If the guy is "good" enough to be able to disable your plane (and his own) but not create a fireball, and he's near his base and can bail safely, I'd say he's had a nice sortie there. Especially if he were out of ammo and had no other alternative than to let you go to bomb the bejeezus out of his base (perhaps while he was landing and taking the brunt of it).

If the host hasn't specifically outlawed ramming, I don't think you have much to stand on here. It sucks to be collided with, sure, but then, it sucks to die in any number of ways on a server.

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XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 02:37 AM
S! Stiglr,

What's so hard about admitting defeat for a fighter? If he attacks me, but can't deal enough damage to me to destroy me or drive me off, then I guess I deserve the chance to attack his airfield. As I pointed out already, a fighter is a lot faster back in action than a bomber.
And I doubt that our hero up here would like to get rammed when he's about to down an enemy or unleash his planned attack. Or think of this, what also sometimes happens, our fighter friend is landing, but shortly before he touches down, he gets attacked by an enemy, the enemy misses with his shooting, but rams our hero instead shortly before our hero would have been back safely, would have gotten some hard earned points and above all, would have saved a plane and a pilot he brought back for his team.

Now, I do know accidents happen more or less frequently, and if the guy responsible for the crash posts a short "sorry" or explanation, it's quite ok, hey, I'm human too, we all make mistakes.

But ramming on purpose thinking you're doing something cool or heroic is just bullsh**.

Since I believe most pilots love the competition, the challenge in fighting other pilots mano a mano, I think many will agree that if you can't win with your flying and shooting skills, you just have to admit defeat and try again.

Sure, defeat sucks, but it's not a shame to be beaten by a better pilot or a lucky shot, next time you might just kick his butt. Or get shot again. Either way, you will either play and fly on, or quit the game. Simple is that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .


S!


- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 01:16 PM
Gee this sounds a lot like the Airforce generals who insisted that a heavely armed bomber force always would be able to fight its way through a enemy airdefence,

Cost; thenthousands of young men whould die sitting in a bomber attacked by Flak and special fighters armed with canon, rockets and air to airbombs!

Yes it was the hard way people learned that ideas are not always the way it will be in practice!

If thesee generals would have had FB a lot of lives could have been spared!

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 03:48 PM
www.forgottenskies.com (http://www.forgottenskies.com)

Main objective is destroying ground targets - bombers play a big role.

S!
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XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 09:29 AM
I agree, with implementing some feature which "punishes" ramming. In a fighter it's bad, but in bomber it gets really, really frustrating. And yeah - it is not about the points, it's about the time and effort... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
12-19-2003, 06:20 AM
Bullpoopie. You going to tell me that a fighter pilot, knowing his homeland was about to be bombed, would simply shrug his shoulders, turn around, and go home? You find that documented somewhere! LOL What a joke! Where do you get your information from?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Future-:


Absolute crap. The only thing more important back then than bringing one bomber down, was to get back alive and go up again and again to attack and destroy many more bombers. Only a badly wounded pilot that was sure that he definitely won't make it back might have thought about a ram attack, but in most cases if hurt that badly, the pilots weren't capable of much more other than bailing or dying.

So don't give me that hero-thing, there is nothing heroic in your flying style, it's just a bad excuse for your mediocre combat skills. A good pilot with the proper plane in FB can down a Pe-8 or B-17 easily. Only those who tend to kill more of the air around the target than hitting the enemy itself but desperately want to destroy the target, resort to lame ram attacks, knowing that they are a lot faster back in action than the bomber.

Try this, big man: "Sometimes survival is it's own reward."

If I ever see you ramming me or one of my fellow bomber pilots on one of the two servers im mostly on, I'll make sure it was your last visit there, understand?

S!

BG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Future-
12-19-2003, 11:34 AM
You going to tell me that a fighter pilot, knowing his homeland was about to be bombed, would simply shrug his shoulders, turn around, and go home? You find that documented somewhere!


First, let me introduce you to things like "rational, logical thinking" and "survival instinct". Once you start understanding these concepts, I can lecture you about the historical situation back then in WW2.
Don't believe me yet? Then go ahead and ask a veteran what he thinks about ram-attacks. Oops, right, he can't tell you much about them probably, since he didn't ram!
The good and lucky pilots went back to their bases to live on, the bad and not-so-lucky guys got shot.
And while I believe that occasionally rams took place, I DO NOT believe that everybody was that much determined to end his live just to get a SINGLE bomber.

Just to give you an example how ridiculous and useless it would have been to throw away his live for a single kill, let me give some numbers.

The numbers are FACTS taken from a historical documentary about the 25th mission of the "Memphis Belle", 1943:
Note: Since not everything is precisely stated in numbers, I only list here what is given.


Main Target: Wilhelmshafen.

Group 1 - Blue Force - 100 B-24 Liberator
Group 2 - White Force - 300 B-17 Fl. Fortress
Group 3 - Green Force - 300 B-17 Fl. Fortress
Group 4 - Green Force - 6 x 12 P-47 Thunderbolt
Group 5 - 6 x 12 RAF Spitfire
Group 6 - B-26 2-engine bombers

Nearly 1000 planes altogether.

Blue Force - Target: distract enemy
White Force - Target: Wilhelmshafen
Green Force - Target: Hannover
Groups 5 & 6 - Target: trains & train stations


Now, please tell me once more that you really think it's a good idea to ram a SINGLE plane and die, while you would be able to attack a lot more enemies and eventually bring them down if you live on.
Only a fool or a person without hope and/or chance of survival would give away his life that easily for some heroic nonsense!
Especially when you consider the huge numbers.

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

LeadSpitter_
12-20-2003, 06:22 PM
yes i noticed this in greatergreen and virtualpilots 2 after 1.21 with the ai that fire one burst at a plane directly on a bombers 6 then just track him having ammo left not firing, I hardly ever see people in the stukas or he111s, I asked and they say because they arent worth flying now since its takes no tactics to shoot a bomber down staying away from its guns. So oleg listens to the ai whiners wahh sniper ai but these are the people who attack direct 6, now that oleg listened to them the people who enjoyed flying bombers dont anymore. way to go

with the descent ai gunner you had to use skill, dive in and get your shots off and break away fromt he guns no you can waltz right behind a gun and not get killed so freaken lame

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt

p1ngu666
12-20-2003, 06:44 PM
dunno if its just me but, a ai plane has better gunners than a flyable plane?
a b17 can take down many fighters online.

i agree with the guy that its a time/effort thing. imagine walking over to enemy base in a tb3. gonna take a while...

SodBuster43
12-22-2003, 10:59 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but historically the Luftwaffe suffered terrible losses of their bomber force at the hands of the Royal Air Force during the Battle Of Britain and later into the war. This ultimately led to their strategic bombing campaing on the whole being downscaled in favor of other aircraft fullfilling the ground attack role.

The Allied strategic bombing campaign also suffered terrible losses at times depending on the amount of AAA and enemy interceptors in the area of operations. Interestingly, the Luftwaffe also suffered attrition of their fighter force at the hands of the Allied bomber gunners as well.

As far as the game goes, find yourself a good full real server and have some fun bombing. But don't be surprised if you lose a few bombers here as well as many of the players are very keen at locating enemy planes even in full real mode. The advantage you have here over a server with enemy icons and external views for instance is more stealth.

Also, try gaining some good altitude before heading out for your target by orbiting your base for a while. There are usually less fighter pilots willing to climb above say 4000 plus meters in search of enemy aircraft. Of course the fighters you do encounter at high altitude are usually the better virtual pilots on the server.

There is an old saying that goes something like speed + height = life.

LeadSpitter_
12-24-2003, 05:12 AM
yes but if you look at britians scoring 1.2 .5 etc it shows you many times that more then one fighter got hits on the bombers and they get half credit [teamwork] also the scale hundreds of bombers, I dont see any problem in bombers being a little stronger then they should be in fb because we cant fly in 100+ bomber flights so people would fly them more.

I dunno it dont make sense to me we dont have realistic flight movement or stickpressure but cockpits are so detailed down to everywire, planes like the pe2 and pe8 wont become flyable because theres no photos of everysingle guage. Also on the eastern front not having snow weather and severe slipstream and turbulence changes at different alts I dont have a problem with a pe2 or pe8 becoming flyable if a couple gauges arent accurate. I mean look at the la7 and yaks they are taking more hits then p47s and 190s so for me personally I give up on realism, and try to have fun even tho many aspects of flight are missing in fb. But it certainly has the best cockpit graphics, cannon gunnery 3dmodels and is definatly fun to fly even tho movement is shady. The colored tracer fire needs to be dulled down significantly if you ever seen green blue and red phosphorus tracers fired in reality, they look like something out of starwars

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
VIEW MY PAINTSCHEMES HERE (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400)

clint-ruin
12-24-2003, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
I mean look at the la7 and yaks they are taking more hits then p47s and 190s so for me personally I give up on realism<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What?

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-25-2003, 10:24 PM
I guess this is how I feel about the whole situation:

You can wreak serious havoc with a bomber, not to mention put on a very impressive show. With a fighter, besides the 1,2 or 3 bombs it can carry, you are very limited. It should be considerably harder to sucessfully make a bombing run than a strafing run with a fighter, bombers were slow, lumbering heavy pieces of machinery. In real life they survived by numbers, in FB you don't have that advantage. With that in mind, you should have the same problems in the game that a "lone wolf" would have had in real life, and you do. If you have fighter escort it's great, but if you don't, its your choice to use a bomber, so live with the risks as well as the rewards.

I hope everyone had a safe and merry Christmas.

HellToupee
12-27-2003, 07:50 PM
we need the mosquito, early war it should be very tuff to catch if you can catch it :P, cant catch you they cant ram you.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

VW-IceFire
12-27-2003, 09:59 PM
A Mossie would be great...high speed fighter-bomber or straight bomber.

With the Mitchell, the A-20, and the Ju-88 the world of the bomber and attack plane have gotten much better...these are faster more heavily armed bombers than the He-111's we see quite a bit of.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

BBB_PzGrenni
12-28-2003, 05:15 PM
Hi LuckyBoy!

I'm one of these bomber pilots and you're right for that.The only thrill to kill AAA or static planes or hit players while on runway (as Bomber I see it as allowed vulching) is not alone satisfaction.Where are craters to close runways for other side for ~5min gameplay? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

So its too more fun if you have fighter cover and i think that the fighter fans sure know they escort a bait for enemy fighters.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So maybe see some of you on my 6 or beside http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BBB_Special_Advertise_Service@yahoo.co.uk