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RSS-Martin
01-05-2011, 11:44 AM
Looks like China has a new fancy bird! Although it looks sort of Russian.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/4.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/5.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/8.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/9.jpg

Treetop64
01-05-2011, 12:04 PM
Looks more American than Russian... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Bo_Nidle
01-05-2011, 12:12 PM
It looks like the offspring of a Raptor that got rogered by a Yak!.....I like it.

JG52Uther
01-05-2011, 01:56 PM
Looks interesting! Wonder how many of them they have...

Treetop64
01-05-2011, 02:13 PM
China has been on an awfully aggressive military buildup for several years now, especially with their navy. Their new sub base on Hainan Island is some real James Bond type stuff. Apparently they're looking to assert the defense of their "economic exclusion zone". The rest of Asia and India aren't too thrilled by this.

Sounds a bit familiar with the exploits of another budding Asian power about 75 years ago... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

AndyJWest
01-05-2011, 02:44 PM
Sounds a bit familiar with the exploits of another budding Asian power about 75 years ago...
Or the exploits of several European powers some time earlier, though at least the Chinese "economic exclusion zone" seems to be in their own hemisphere...

An interesting looking plane. Any photos showing it from above or below?

Jaws2002
01-05-2011, 03:03 PM
From everything I've seen so far, with more capable, modern stealth fighters coming from Russia and China, F-35 will be the most expensive stillborn in aviation history. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

They thought that everyone else is sleeping. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif


J20 looks like a big a$$ fighter. It makes sense when you have to store your payload and fuel inside.

Few more images:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FeVO1ED2L2Y/TSIqDyVSd2I/AAAAAAAAAC8/4loz11xhviM/s1600/J-20%2BRendering.jpg

http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA-AF/Chengdu-J-XX-VLO-Prototype-11S.jpg

http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA-AF/Chengdu-J-XX-VLO-Prototype-12S.jpg

http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA-AF/Chengdu-J-XX-VLO-Prototype-3S.jpg

http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA-AF/Chengdu-J-XX-VLO-Prototype-2S.jpg

http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA-AF/Chengdu-J-XX-VLO-Prototype-8S.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
01-05-2011, 03:24 PM
IIRC the F-35 is ment mainly as an attack plane.
i guess it will get a very good groundattack software.

and actually, its all (almost http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) about software in these planes nowadays IMHO........

DuckyFluff
01-05-2011, 04:01 PM
Looks like they found another use for all that excess melamine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bearcat99
01-05-2011, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Treetop64:
China has been on an awfully aggressive military buildup for several years now, especially with their navy. Their new sub base on Hainan Island is some real James Bond type stuff. Apparently they're looking to assert the defense of their "economic exclusion zone". The rest of Asia and India aren't too thrilled by this.

Sounds a bit familiar with the exploits of another budding Asian power about 75 years ago... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Yeah but this time there isn't much anyone can do about it... If pushed to the wall they have way more in terms of resources than Japan or Germany .. or Italy for that matter did in 1941.

Everytime I see those Grumman commercials insinuating that the F-22 & JSF will be the premier fighters into the 21st century I cant help but laugh.. as if the rest of the worlsd will just sit on their hands and hum.

Dance
01-05-2011, 04:40 PM
Maybe it's voice controlled too.....

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://www.modelbuffs.com/img_tmp/mig-firefox-revised-solo-4.jpg

p-11.cAce
01-06-2011, 10:36 AM
I was in another forum yesterday and the idea that seemed to reoccur was that perhaps the J-20 is part of the collaborative work going on with the Sukhoi T-50. While the India/Russia collaboration is public, perhaps the Chinese are working on a version of their own. In any case it's interesting to see all these new aircraft in development - I'm sure things will get more interesting as China and India field their aircraft carriers this decade.

major_setback
01-06-2011, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
It looks like the offspring of a Raptor that got rogered by a Yak!.

Roger that!

Urufu_Shinjiro
01-06-2011, 02:24 PM
Oh those crazy Chinese knockoffs, lol!

Wildnoob
01-06-2011, 02:44 PM
I really like from the China subject, and also view it in comparison with the Pacific War, to try think how the people in the world did on those days. Of course nobody can say the same will happen, but it's good for take some conclusions about history while it is still happening, not after, with tons of books that already dissected almost everything of it. When I see people understimating China's aeronatical industry for intance, I immediately remind me of people in the West thinking the same about Japan in the 1930s and early 1940s: "they just know to made copies, everything is inferior to ours, the planes and the pilots!". Of course, if you ask to those people if they think the Western powers commited a mistake understatimating Japan in those days, their ansewer surely would be: "of course!", and would list endless reasons for the failure. They are clearly being hypocrite and not capable to conciliate the past with a present similar situation, but this is all the funny about this. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Heavy_Weather
01-06-2011, 03:35 PM
I'm pretty sure you can get one of those at Wal-Mart. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

jarink
01-06-2011, 04:52 PM
I'm of the opinion that this a/c would not be possible without China's well-developed but seldom publicized industrial espionage capabilities.

The first reaction of many to this (planned) unveiling is to suggest reopening the F-22 production line. As China develops more and more advanced capabilities, the US will be forced into either countering with more of the current crop of very costly weapons (F-22, F-35, B-2, etc.) or developing an entirely new generation of aircraft and weapons. Either course could be hugely expensive at a time when budget cuts have become mandatory.

The US basically 'won' the Cold War by forcing the USSR to spend past the ability of their economy to finance. This makes me wonder if China is trying to out-Cold War the US.

Another factor worth keeping in mind is that China is the single biggest creditor to the US.

DrHerb
01-11-2011, 02:10 PM
Well, it flies.

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Wildnoob
01-11-2011, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by jarink:
I'm of the opinion that this a/c would not be possible without China's well-developed but seldom publicized industrial espionage capabilities.

The first reaction of many to this (planned) unveiling is to suggest reopening the F-22 production line. As China develops more and more advanced capabilities, the US will be forced into either countering with more of the current crop of very costly weapons (F-22, F-35, B-2, etc.) or developing an entirely new generation of aircraft and weapons. Either course could be hugely expensive at a time when budget cuts have become mandatory.

The US basically 'won' the Cold War by forcing the USSR to spend past the ability of their economy to finance. This makes me wonder if China is trying to out-Cold War the US.

Another factor worth keeping in mind is that China is the single biggest creditor to the US.

The impression I have is the US governemment is now itching to sell the Raptor, although they don't want to liberate it because the costs of the JSF and cuts of aircraft ordered.

horseback
01-11-2011, 03:41 PM
The People’s Republic of China has a stealth fighter! More news at eleven! In the meantime, everybody panic or gloat about the impending demise of the <unfair> US stealth monopoly!

How stealthy is it?

How fast is it?

How well does it fly?

What’s its range?

What kind of armament can it carry internally, and is any of it capable of operating without a radar or infrared ‘lock’ before engaging (IR guided munitions are notoriously hard to lock on to a target with while inside the aircraft’s skin)?

Can the average PLA pilot handle its workload?

How much does it cost to build in useful numbers?

When will it be deployed?

Ho hum.

cheers

horseback

Bremspropeller
01-11-2011, 04:13 PM
It's funny how people get in a frenzy when they see a funny-shaped, black-painted aircraft.

Gotta be in-whizz-ible.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Treetop64
01-11-2011, 05:27 PM
Man... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The U.S. has had more than 150 F-22s in service for several years now. The final 30 or so are still, or will be, in production. The United States had two competing stealth fighter prototypes flying against each other fifteen years ago.

Lockheed's F-117 Nighthawk bombed targets in Granada during the Regan administration, and is now retired from service.

The B-2 bombed targets in the first Gulf War, and has been at work ever since.

Now comes the F-35 Lightning. It's (slightly) stealthier, cheaper, and more accessible than the F-22, and with better avionics and systems, though admittedly it's dynamic performance is nowhere near that of the F-22...

Now, in 2010-2011, China and Russia gets just one incomplete prototype apiece, and the world goes ape-sheet... I say it's about time that China and Russia got in the game. The surprise, to me at least, is that Europe has yet to produce a competing stealth fighter or bomber. China and Russia has beat Europe.

It has to be said that, as good as an aircraft the Eurofighter is, it might now been seen as a colossal waste of time, effort, and resources, seeing that it is merely a conventional aircraft, albeit an extreme, highly capable one. It does have a reduced RCS, but so does the F-16; the Eurofighter is not a dedicated stealth design. It can stand up to and bloody the nose of the elderly F-15, F-16, and the more recent Su-27, but only just. My grandmother could knock out the MiG-29. The Eurofighter can't compete against the F-22, except in unit cost. I doubt that it could hold up against any eventual production version of Chengdu's J-20, Shenyang's J-XX, Sukhoi's FGFA and PAK FA, Tupolev's PAK DA, and Mikoyan's eventual replacement of their aborted, half-baked "stealth" fighter from years ago...

During recent Red Flag exercises, one squadron of F-22s absolutely destroyed several F-15 squadrons, for one loss and no regenerations, while the F-15s were several allowed regenerations. Among a host of other handicaps against the F-22s , the F-15 were given AWACS support, while the Raptors were denied AWACS.

The F-22 has long since established itself as the world's premier fighter. One has to expect that sooner or later, other nations will come around to doing the same thing.

Even the EU. ( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

AndyJWest
01-11-2011, 07:29 PM
For god's sake, Treetop, remove the suggestion that the EU is a nation before Avro sees it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Treetop64
01-11-2011, 07:53 PM
I have no relation to Sarah Palin, I promise!

Of course, I was speaking of the nations within the EU. Just felt too lazy to type all that, and just used "EU".

Speaking of countries, when is Africa going to build stealth fighters? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Jaws2002
01-11-2011, 10:50 PM
I agree with you Treetop in respect with the F22. But they canceled the production of more F22's and instead decided to bet a bigger chunk of the defense on F35.
F-35 is not going to be a match to J20 and PAK-FA.
The biggest problem here is the Navy. The Navy is the most likely force to have to fight this new planes and they won't have a plane capable to fight. F-35s and F-18s are not going to be able to protect the fleet from this new Stealth fighters.
With the huge size, J20 most likely can carry a lot more ordnance in a stealthy configuration, faster and at longer ranges than F35. If one day China decides to come out swinging, the first things attacked are going to be the US Navy Carriers and they won't have a fighter capable to protect them.

TheGrunch
01-12-2011, 01:49 AM
They certainly look like they could carry enough ordnance to threaten any warship, although who knows how stealthy they are and ergo how close they could get other than the Chinese military? Those recent Chinese sub incidents seem to indicate that the Chinese are increasingly willing to get their big boots on and stomp around looking threatening.

Bremspropeller
01-12-2011, 10:07 AM
The surprise, to me at least, is that Europe has yet to produce a competing stealth fighter or bomber. China and Russia has beat Europe.

Maybe Yurup doesn't think building "inwhizzible" fighters is a first-rate priority.

Russia's most important parts do belong to Europe, btw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


although who knows how stealthy they ar

Have you seen those Canards and the ventral-fins? Both are big stealth-design no-nos.


t can stand up to and bloody the nose of the elderly F-15, F-16, and the more recent Su-27, but only just.

Some recent engagements between RAF Tiffies and Raptors do speak another language.
Something like "Tiffies got a lock-on long before the Raptors could in turn gained a lock on them". Naturally, the Raptors went home and didn't chose to show up the next day http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

ROXunreal
01-12-2011, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by RSS-Martin:
Although it looks sort of Russian.

That's because it's from China, the place where originality goes to die.

RSS-Martin
01-12-2011, 11:49 AM
Well I guess that is something asian, remember in the sixties and seventies people where saying the exact same about Japan, what China is doing today.

AndyJWest
01-14-2011, 06:54 PM
Actually, people were saying the same thing about the Japanese aviation industry pre-WW2, which led to a few surprises.

More photos, and an interesting assessment, here: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-J-XX-Prototype.html

ploughman
01-14-2011, 07:34 PM
Aus Air Power are desperate for the F-22 to be sold to Australia, the J-20's all the more ammunitiion for their point of view. Not that it's incorrect, the F-22's definately the best option for air defence, shame the americans aren't selling. Perhaps, they'll change their minds, keep the line open, and start peddling to close allies in the light of the J-20.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about the Chinese arms build up at the moment is that, given the breadth of the spectrum of defence capability the US enjoys at this time, they are seeking to find chinks (no pun intended) in that capabily and develop technologies of their own that negate or signigicantly comprimise the ability of the US to project power west of the Marianas. China isn't seeking to fight or to win a war with the USA, it's seeking to change the balance of military power in a very discrete area. Once it is able to acheive that the diplomatic repurcussions will be regional realignment of relationships based on the new reality. China wants the boundary of the US military cordon not to lay in the Taiwan Strait, but on the western edge of the island of Guam.

<edit - removed a slang term for national group>

ploughman
01-14-2011, 07:52 PM
@Bremms. There's a suggestion that Plasma stealth (whatever the hell that is) may be utilised to preserve the stealth qualities of the J-22 despite the canards, and did not the YF-23 have the same sort of 'floppy' tail arrangement that the J-20 boasts? note that the butt end of the J-20 looks about as stealthy as a Ford Cortina, but I presume this is due to the same reasoning behind the developement logic of the T-50/PAK-FA in that 'they just haven't got to that bit yet?' As always, your input is valued, anymore on the Typhoon/Raptor meet?

leitmotiv
01-14-2011, 08:19 PM
Whatever China's game is, of course, their ambitions must be resisted diplomatically and by other means. Anything else is supine, and the Chinese have the utmost contempt for the supine. What is worrying is that the Chinese might be able to afford 1000 of their top stealth fighter while the USA can't afford to buy more than 180 F-22s (imperial decline is a huge drag). One never wants to be inferior in the most important weapons, even if the weapon is individually superior to the opposition. For example, the German dreadnoughts at Jutland were individually superior to the corresponding British dreadnoughts of their age group, but this little mattered when they were significantly outnumbered (and out-maneuvered). Scheer had no option but to flee in the face of the Grand Fleet. The Royal Navy was arguably the best navy in the world between the wars, but the RN lived in dread of the exact situation which it faced in December 1941---war against Italy, Germany, and Japan---strategic overstretch. This is what the US faces with a vengeance.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/201...-of-14-november.html (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/11/15/103739_a103880/cartoons-for-the-week-of-14-november.html)

Bremspropeller
01-15-2011, 06:26 AM
1) The Chinese are incapable of building a decent airliner till now. They just haven't closed the tech-gap yet.
Now, building a new stealth-fighter is even more challanging:

They don't have any experience with composite-materials, RAM-material, engines with a low SFC (specific fuel-consumption = fuel-flow per thrust-unit), etc.

Assuming that their plane, built on a basis of ZERO experience is gonna kick arse within less than 5-10 years is a bit naive.
They just don't have the tech NOW.

Their J-10 is a reverse-engineered IAI Lavi with more than 20 years of time for development and incorporating their own gizmos - that's with a Su-27 engine, because their own development, the WP-10 doesn't meet the reliabiliy-standards for being put onto a single-holer.
Nonetheless, it's a pretty mean-lookig aircraft and a lot better than anything else they have in their arsenal (obviously including their J-11 Su-27-copy, but propably excluding the russian-built Su-30MKs) - or at least it's better suited for their missions and purposes than any other fighter they'd have access to.

2) Why is everybody so afraid of China attacking anybody? The US has'n been off China's bordering seas for years - they have pulled-off numerous war-like (in terms of numbers) exercises that have done nothing but embarras China. It's only natural for them to build funny-looking planes and pulling off a propaganda-coup now.

That thing is either a tech-demonstator (like the EAP was for the Eurofighter), or it's not gonna go into production (with major internal and external changes) for a couple of years.
It's for learning lessons - crucial lessons for building actual stealth-planes.

China wants to establish and defend it's position as a local power - quite hard if you're bordering two other countries claiming that title (India and Russia).
I don't think this thing is gonna be a threat for anybody in the near future.