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raaaid
04-04-2009, 05:36 AM
i have some cash and dont know what to spend it in, maybe pedals, i use racing pedals now

how much do good pedals improve your gunnery?

raaaid
04-04-2009, 05:36 AM
i have some cash and dont know what to spend it in, maybe pedals, i use racing pedals now

how much do good pedals improve your gunnery?

X32Wright
04-04-2009, 06:28 AM
It wont improve much on heads on but it would improve your deflection shots a lot since you can literally track your enemy smoothly via pedal moves.

Also you would be able to do some maneuvers that you cannot or not as good with twist or rocker switch pedals.

jamesblonde1979
04-04-2009, 06:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
i have some cash and dont know what to spend it in, maybe pedals, i use racing pedals now

how much do good pedals improve your gunnery? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends on how good your coordination is. If you are a good driver then the chances are it will improve your control of the aircraft.

This can only be good.

raaaid
04-04-2009, 07:24 AM
and what would be the best deal to buy in europe?

jamesblonde1979
04-04-2009, 07:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
and what would be the best deal to buy in europe? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No idea mate, I'm from the Aussieland.

Sokol__1
04-04-2009, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and what would be the best deal to buy in europe? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.dhs-electronic.de/simped.htm
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Sokol1

Gnomie
04-04-2009, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
and what would be the best deal to buy in europe? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Lerts! (Correct me if I'm wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

I ended up buying some CH Pros via eBay. I think eBay is your safest bet.

ytareh
04-04-2009, 10:48 AM
I tried pedals for a week or two and HATED them ....had to rebuild my entire workstation area to fit them ...suffered with cramps in legs (and was VERY fit at the time)and they put my overall flying 'skillz' back at least 6 months ....I would think long and hard before making the jump.OK so they are more 'realistic' but so is blowing your head off with a pistol if you get killed during a mission ...

Stiletto-
04-04-2009, 01:15 PM
Um... Ok.

Pedals are more realistic yes.. But people wouldn't be using them if they made your flight skills worse than a twist stick, nor would people spend hundreds of dollars on them if they were only as good or marginally better.. Also, if twist sticks were better you would see them in fly-by-wire aircraft today, where they aren't there.

I had a co-worker borrow my Logitech Momo racing wheel to play Grand Turismo 5 on his Playstation, it was an old wheel to me so I said OK. He gave it back to me in a week telling me he was 5 seconds slower than using his gamepad. I guess sometimes it's just hard to re-learn your brain.

Back on topic.. Raaid what kind of wheel setup do you have? I use G25 pedals and they are great... But that is on the higher end of the driving pedal range, not your cheaper plastic stuff. If you are looking for real rudder pedals, the CH Pedals are good and also alot of people like the Saitek ones even better, though they will have to be around for another 10 years to prove they are as ruggid as the CH ones.

raaaid
04-04-2009, 01:29 PM
oh i have g25 pedals

do you use brake acelerator combo

what do you recomend me to use the g25 pedals?

BaronUnderpants
04-04-2009, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
I tried pedals for a week or two and HATED them ....had to rebuild my entire workstation area to fit them ...suffered with cramps in legs (and was VERY fit at the time)and they put my overall flying 'skillz' back at least 6 months ....I would think long and hard before making the jump.OK so they are more 'realistic' but so is blowing your head off with a pistol if you get killed during a mission ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Second that + missing shots completly from 100 m, meaning nose was of by a mile so pulling the trigger was pointless because i kept forgetting to use my feet instead of wrist. Never could get in to it, twist stick, for me at least, gives me way more controle.

Do agree however that u can do manouvers with rudder pedals that u cant or have a hard time doing with twist stick.

Call me lazy but i dont wanna relearn something i allredy know how to do. Will give it another go when BoB gets out though.


Good luck whatever u decide either way,

Bearcat99
04-04-2009, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I tried pedals for a week or two and HATED them ....had to rebuild my entire workstation area to fit them ...suffered with cramps in legs (and was VERY fit at the time)and they put my overall flying 'skillz' back at least 6 months ....I would think long and hard before making the jump.OK so they are more 'realistic' but so is blowing your head off with a pistol if you get killed during a mission ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Second that + missing shots completly from 100 m, meaning nose was of by a mile so pulling the trigger was pointless because i kept forgetting to use my feet instead of wrist. Never could get in to it, twist stick, for me at least, gives me way more controle.

Do agree however that u can do manouvers with rudder pedals that u cant or have a hard time doing with twist stick.
Call me lazy but i dont wanna relearn something i allredy know how to do. Will give it another go when BoB gets out though.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree with both of you. Like anything pedals take time to work into your setup. It isnt a "Just buy em, drop em, and use em " kinda thing. You have to try different spacings and different seat heights... but raaid.. if you have siome money to burn I recommend that you get a TIR instead of pedals.... Mind you IMO both are good and essen tial for any simmer who is more than a casual simmer.. but TIR is a great piece of kit that IMO has no drawbacks save it's cost, and that IMO, even though a bit high.. is worht every cent, or Euro... If TIR was not what you had in mind.. or you already have it.. I suggest either CH or Saitek pedals. Both are good.. I prefer the Saiteks.. they have a wider stance and IMO a smoother throw..

Stiletto-
04-04-2009, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
oh i have g25 pedals

do you use brake acelerator combo

what do you recomend me to use the g25 pedals? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay Raaid, as far as using car pedals as flight sim pedals, you have some of the best in the bunch.. I really don't know if I would spend 100-300 dollars on rudder pedals, I don't think the gains are worth the money over the G25 pedals.

I infact, use the brake and gas, but you I am sure of.. Do not like the fact that the brake pedals has alot more tension than the gas pedal, making the load uneven.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...401049086#2401049086 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/4081038646?r=2401049086#2401049086)

That the thread awhile back about the G25, I haven't looked into it yet, but as someone states.. If you use the PP2Joy program and maybe GlovePie ? You can enable the single axis to be on the clutch and gas instead of brake and gas, where the pressure would be equal.. Then you can use the 3rd pedal as an actual wheel brake.

It's worth a shot if you don't feel like spending a few hundred dollars on rudder pedals and can't stand using the brake pedal for left rudder.


Oh, also to add to what bearcat said.. You already have some kind of useable rudder.. I agree, I would spend the money on a TIR myself.

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-04-2009, 09:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
i have some cash and dont know what to spend it in, maybe pedals, i use racing pedals now

how much do good pedals improve your gunnery? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO they improve everything not just gunnery. Its a more natural and precise response. I use CH pedals FYI. Be advised that if you never used pedals it take roughly a month to really become comfortable but once you do you will truely appreciate them and wonder how you got along without them. A very good investment for any serious simmer.

S!

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-04-2009, 09:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
I tried pedals for a week or two and HATED them </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It takes longer then that to appreciate them IMO. What pedals did you try?

S!

Ritter_Cuda
04-04-2009, 10:43 PM
for me it like sking just step on the inside foot

Sokol__1
04-04-2009, 11:00 PM
Jay Hall Newbies Joystick Guide say:

"This neural delay is also the reason why rudder pedals will never function as fast or precisely as yaw being controlled from the joystick (Saitek X-52 for example) or throttle (CH Products). "

"or throttle (CH products)" means rudder in left thumb mini-stik.

True?

Sokol1

Insuber
04-05-2009, 03:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
I tried pedals for a week or two and HATED them ....had to rebuild my entire workstation area to fit them ...suffered with cramps in legs (and was VERY fit at the time)and they put my overall flying 'skillz' back at least 6 months ....I would think long and hard before making the jump.OK so they are more 'realistic' but so is blowing your head off with a pistol if you get killed during a mission ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Fully agree. I bought the Saitek pedals and tried them for a couple of hours, then repacked them and put the box in the cupboard. The precise rudder adjustments to line up for the kill were completely lost, my feet weren't by far as sensitive as the hand. I got the feeling that even with months of trainings the results would not be comparable to the twist stick which I used for years. And why then train for months ? So, another expensive door stop for my collection. And, BTW I'm a good driver.

Regards,
Ins

raaaid
04-05-2009, 06:08 AM
yep thanks for the feedback i think ill save the money and use my g25 pedals by now

before trying trackir ill try first freetrack that works with a webcam and appears to give good results, but im not in a hurry till bob comes with 6dof

i have 160 euros to spend but actually really need nothing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

orville07
04-05-2009, 07:22 AM
Suppose its a case of "each to their own". I bought a pair of Saitek rudder pedals about a year ago, I think they are great. I understand the people saying how difficult it is to get used to at first.....My first attempts at taxiing with them resulted in much "clown car" hilarity. Very frustrating at first, but then remember as a kid when you first learned to ride a bike? You fall off, you get back on and try again. Now it is second nature, its all about retraining the old noggin lol. There are maneuvers you can pull off which are extremely difficult to co-ordinate with twist, which I used for years. I understand the aiming issues though, but even that can be overcome and now I can adjust aim just as good if not better.

Did I mention fitness benefits too, you Lazy B******???? LOL My legs have never been in better shape (the Saitek pedals have an adjustable tension and if you put em on stiff its actually a pretty good workout!), alas they do nothing for my beer belly hahaha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

X32Wright
04-05-2009, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Jay Hall Newbies Joystick Guide say:

"This neural delay is also the reason why rudder pedals will never function as fast or precisely as yaw being controlled from the joystick (Saitek X-52 for example) or throttle (CH Products). "

"or throttle (CH products)" means rudder in left thumb mini-stik.

True?

Sokol1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I strongly disagree with this one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It took me two weeks to adjust to my Saitek pdelas and now been using them for two years and I can make moves that is impossible with twist or rocker switch specially wing over moves.

GIAP.Shura
04-05-2009, 09:35 AM
Twist-sticks are acceptable. Rudders are better.

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-05-2009, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I strongly disagree with this one Smile It took me two weeks to adjust to my Saitek pdelas and now been using them for two years and I can make moves that is impossible with twist or rocker switch specially wing over moves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


+1

Bearcat99
04-05-2009, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sokol__1:
Jay Hall Newbies Joystick Guide say:

"This neural delay is also the reason why rudder pedals will never function as fast or precisely as yaw being controlled from the joystick (Saitek X-52 for example) or throttle (CH Products). "

"or throttle (CH products)" means rudder in left thumb mini-stik.

True?
Sokol1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not even... Like anything even a HOTAS when coming from a single joystick is an adjustment. Rudder pedals IMO are absolutely worth it.... as I said.. IMO a TIR is better.. but both are IMO equally essential to any serious simmer. With pedals you can put your brakes on an axis.. and once you get used to them the benifits are obvious..

IMO any new piece of hardware needs at least @ 8 hours of stick time.. minimum.. to get acclimated to.

K_Freddie
04-05-2009, 04:22 PM
A repost of this movie but it might be applicable here.

Besides gunnery.. this is what pedals enable you to do.. Rudder moves (16MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/SnapIt.avi).

These moves are purely though rudder pedals... The other control moves are purely to counter balance the out-of-control move.

So yes - pedals work better than twist... I've done them both, and more precise control/aiming is done better with pedals.

You will have not wasted your $$$$ on pedals.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Fur_Cough
04-06-2009, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sokol__1:
Jay Hall Newbies Joystick Guide say:

"This neural delay is also the reason why rudder pedals will never function as fast or precisely as yaw being controlled from the joystick (Saitek X-52 for example) or throttle (CH Products). "

"or throttle (CH products)" means rudder in left thumb mini-stik.

True?

Sokol1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, not IMHO. The argument is based on the fact that neural impluse speed is constant, but there's less distance between hand & central nervous system (CNS) than there is between foot & CNS. Which is true. But there are a lot of other considerations than simply reaction time that negate this benefit

From a skill acquisition PoV, it can be more difficult to re-learn a different way of doing things than it is for a novice to learn from scratch. That may explain why those who get good with twist stick find it more difficult to then convert to pedals.

ytareh
04-06-2009, 07:08 AM
Well its nice to see that this thread gives some 'input' to the people who use twist sticks and find them preferable to the rudder pedals

na85
04-06-2009, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:

I disagree with both of you. Like anything pedals take time to work into your setup. It isnt a "Just buy em, drop em, and use em " kinda thing. You have to try different spacings and different seat heights... but raaid.. if you have siome money to burn I recommend that you get a TIR instead of pedals.... Mind you IMO both are good and essen tial for any simmer who is more than a casual simmer.. but TIR is a great piece of kit that IMO has no drawbacks save it's cost, and that IMO, even though a bit high.. is worht every cent, or Euro... If TIR was not what you had in mind.. or you already have it.. I suggest either CH or Saitek pedals. Both are good.. I prefer the Saiteks.. they have a wider stance and IMO a smoother throw.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the CH pedals and for me it WAS a "buy em, put em on the floor, use em" situation.

I had maybe a day or two of the whole "getting used to the pedals" bit where I would push too far or not enough or forget to use them at all but after that it's been smooth sailing.

Keeping the ball centered is much easier with pedals imo.

na85
04-06-2009, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sokol__1:
Jay Hall Newbies Joystick Guide say:

"This neural delay is also the reason why rudder pedals will never function as fast or precisely as yaw being controlled from the joystick (Saitek X-52 for example) or throttle (CH Products). "

"or throttle (CH products)" means rudder in left thumb mini-stik.

True?

Sokol1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Jay Hall Newbies Joystick Guide say:

"This neural delay is also the reason why rudder pedals will never function as fast or precisely as yaw being controlled from the joystick (Saitek X-52 for example) or throttle (CH Products). " </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Jay Hall Newbies Joystick Guide say:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">JayHall
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

raaaid
04-06-2009, 07:31 AM
actually using pedals neurally is much more eficient since you are using BOTH hemispheres

while with twist hand you ONLY use one hemisphere

X32Wright
04-06-2009, 08:32 AM
Distance ehh from the feet to the brain? What? DO you know that nerve impulses travel at 350 feet/sec? and how tall is a human being? Unless you have no Schwann cells in ur neurons well that ought to be fast enough. Tell this to the soccer players and their response time not to mention all those people walking getting feedback input from their feet! LOL

raaaid
04-06-2009, 08:50 AM
talking on brain response, we all can see 2 seconds within the future, happens to me all the time:

http://www.viewzone.com/future/index.html

Researchers began to see that most people, unconsciously, began to react to the "emotional" images a full 5 seconds before they were selected by the computer program! What's more, they did not react to the "neutral" images.

K_Freddie
04-06-2009, 11:54 AM
Actually with a twisty, you'd find yourself 'naturally' twisting the rudder when you do not want to, as well as the sensivity is a bit off-putting.

With pedals this doesn't happen as the pedals are 'down there', resulting in more precise control, to pull off some nice 'stunts'.

When I converted to pedals from a twisty, I found it a bit annoying at first but then once you get both your 'hemispheres'http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif working, all falls into place.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

na85
04-06-2009, 11:57 AM
For sure.

Lots of times with the twisty I found myself inadvertently ruddering to the side when doing vertical maneuvers.

ytareh
04-06-2009, 01:05 PM
Yeah sure the twist sticks are prone to unconscious minor deflection in straight and level flight but I use a very slow early part of the movement profile (eg 0/1/1/2 etc)and keep the ball centered...

Woke_Up_Dead
04-06-2009, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
Yeah sure the twist sticks are prone to unconscious minor deflection in straight and level flight but I use a very slow early part of the movement profile (eg 0/1/1/2 etc)and keep the ball centered... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here, it makes a big difference.

horseback
04-06-2009, 10:03 PM
It seems that pedals are very much an individual thing.

My own experience was that it seemed almost instantly like the most natural thing in the world. Pedals and stick are how I always thought of as 'flying', and the twisty sticks, no matter how good (I was using a Sidewinder Precision 2 at the time) never seemed quite right.

The only thing that you need to make sure of is anchoring the pedals in some way. The first few weeks, I was pushing them across the floor away from me with every rudder input.

Find something that won't mash the USB cord and hold them steady so they don't rock back and forth.

cheers

horseback

Sillius_Sodus
04-07-2009, 12:16 PM
Hi Raaaid,

Normally I don't read you posts...my mind must be too, er, um, linear or something http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Back in the old days of DOS, I used to play Dynamix's Aces of the Pacific, one of the combat sims where you really needed rudder input to stay on target. Anyway, the game allowed for two joysticks so I used one for pitch and roll and the other for yaw and throttle. I found it worked well and I've used this setup ever since.

I've used the Z axis on sticks for yaw control but I find them tiring in cruise in aircraft without rudder trim and in combat I found that I would often introduce a bit of yaw inadvertently when maneuvering, and I couldn't strafe accurately to save my life so I went back to the two stick setup.

That said, there is nothing wrong with using the Z axis for yaw and some pilots are very proficient with it. They wouldn't put it on sticks if it didn't work right?

My second stick is a Saitek Avi8tor, easy to use because you can set it up for either hand. Unlike my setup for AOE, the stick is only used for yaw, I use its throttle for, well, throttle. The extra hat and buttons are very useful for trim and engine management functions.

The only disadvantage with the setup is that it's a bit tricky to do maneuvers which require changing yaw and throttle at the same time. I suppose you could assign throttle to buttons on the stick, my preferred solution would be to somehow modify the stick so that the 'pitch' axis would not spring back to center when the stick is released but I'm not that handy. If anyone out there has any ideas on how to do this I'd love to hear them.

All in all a solution that's a bit cheaper than pedals if you don't like twisties.

eckhart1957
04-07-2009, 09:20 PM
I am not as competent as Wright, Bearcat, DKoor and many others here but I would like to add my 2cents here.

1- a rudder is a must if complete immersion is important for you!
you wouldn't expect to twist your stick around and imagine yourself a fighter pilot in a WWII warbird? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

2- using a rudder needs some time and the learning curve might be steep!
Ever tried to tap on your belly with one hand while making circular movements over your head with the other? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Well most of us are more experienced with their hands than with their feet so it needs some time get used to a rudder and this is why those twisting sticks are so popular

3- you need to find out which sensitivity works best for you!
Tools like Joycontrol are great for this but you need to know how to use those. You will find for example Captain Brown's setting which seems to be very close to reality but lacks the full power response necessary for online flying. However the precision of such a setting is great and you can really hose a bomber motor after motor. Now as the excursion of those pedals is usually quite limited those who want to get a full response at the end of the response curve usually end up with a sudden jump from low sensitivity to high sensitivity. This is fatal for any precision shooting and good flying. Another program ( you will find it on M4T) was really helpful for me in order to find the smoothest polynomial response curve: JFORCE. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Try this software and find out which response curve is the smoothest and works best for you. If somebody is interested I can post the response curve I ended up with by using the JFORCE program.

4- Don't buy cr@p and get the best pedals available!
only rich people can buy stuff of poor quality and replace it now and then. I had an old Thrustmaster RCS which was absolutely horrible. Too jumpy to do any precision flying and shooting. So I went back to those Microsoft twisting sticks until I got the chance to find those SIMPED pedals. They are great, robust and precise (hall sensor). Only drawback is the short range of their hallsensor. So +1 to what Sokol already mentioned http://www.dhs-electronic.de/simped.htm

To fix them on the ground get yourself some industrial velcro tape and that will do the job. If you are rich then the Tarmac rudder might be an option for you but the price is truly prohibitive (more than 1600 Euros!)


In conclusion after all this rambling:

GET YOURSELF A GOOD PEDAL (SIMPED , Tarmac or other) and ENJOY!

Ps: the next step and even more important one is to get the best joystick available to fly and shoot with precision. There is only one which will completely change your Simmer life the TARMAC KG13....a dream but this would be another thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Jabout
04-08-2009, 03:41 AM
I saw the video on the Tarmac aces site of the guy flying with the KG13 stick.

Basically it's got a long shaft, and the pilot was moving it with small millimetres of movement, in just the same way I saw in a video of an ex luftwaffe pilot trying to fly this sim - i.e. movements with fractions of an inch.

Our desktop 6 inch shaft joysticks being whacked back and forth will never really do the job.

There was a guy called Urze who did Cougar shaft extensions and was going to post on his side how to extend the shaft of the MS FFB2, the site is called left side or something like that.

However, his guestbook and the DCS forums suggest he has not been particularly active over the last couple of months.

T_O_A_D
04-08-2009, 02:58 PM
Pedals are worth it.

Once you have them you can set your rudder trim on your twisty, It makes lining up for a bomb run 10 times easier.

And you can disable it if your having trouble inadvertently using it in a fighter.

TIR is good too, both hold a strong love from me.

jayhall0315
04-18-2009, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fur_Cough:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sokol__1:
Jay Hall Newbies Joystick Guide say:

"This neural delay is also the reason why rudder pedals will never function as fast or precisely as yaw being controlled from the joystick (Saitek X-52 for example) or throttle (CH Products). "

"or throttle (CH products)" means rudder in left thumb mini-stik.

True?

Sokol1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, not IMHO. The argument is based on the fact that neural impluse speed is constant, but there's less distance between hand & central nervous system (CNS) than there is between foot & CNS. Which is true. But there are a lot of other considerations than simply reaction time that negate this benefit

From a skill acquisition PoV, it can be more difficult to re-learn a different way of doing things than it is for a novice to learn from scratch. That may explain why those who get good with twist stick find it more difficult to then convert to pedals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except for small non-linear aspects (synapses crossed, spinal cord relay delays, etc... which actually accentuate delay), neural impulse speed does approximate a linear function at first perturbation. Believe that I am piping scientific BS in your ear ? Try this:

1 - Get out a G15 gaming keyboard and load up the G-Series Key Profiler software from Logitech. (many other keyboards also can do this I would suppose like Saitek and Razor)
2 - Set up a custom micro to flash the lights of the LCD screen as a 'GO !' signal
3 - As soon as you see this 'GO !' signal, tap the key you previously set in the micro with the index finger of your good hand (for most this is the right hand)(set your finger say 1.5 cm above the keyboard)
4 - No look at what the micro recorded in milliseconds as your response time (Gaussian disribution (ie 'Bell Curve') for healthy males age 15 to 35 will be about 80 to 300 ms)
5 - Now take the keyboard off your desk and set it down on the floor at your feet.
6 - When you see the LCD flash this time (the 'GO !' signal) either tap the assigned key with your big toe or with the ridges of your sole. (set your big toe 1.5 cm above the keyboard as well)
7 - Now look at the response time. If it is the same as your hand, then one of two things is taking place:

1 - You have neuromuscular damage possibly in your good arm.
2 - You are an alien implant here on Planet Earth and Molder and Scully will be coming for you soon.

You will very quickly see for yourself that your finger taps the key much faster than your big toe (in most humans, the difference will be &gt;100 ms)

What this means is that if I am facing you on a HL server with almost the same ping, then as your right or left foot is sliding forward, I have already made my 'cut' (lets say in the flat scissors) and if my gunnery is on that day and the planets are aligned correctly, .... your wing will be coming off.

Also keep in mind the 'throw' of the physical device. To reach 100% of variance (maximum rudder either to the left or right) the throw on the mini-joystick of the CH Pro Throttle is only about 0.6 cm while on the CH Pro Pedals it is about 15 cm... big difference ! even at differential acceleration. The rudder pedals will never reach maximum yaw before your thumb can fully deflect the mini-joystick. (it is also about 2.5 cm of radial transit on the Saitek X-52 models)

(The auto industry also realized in the 1980s when they began to fist mass produce autos for handicapped people who could not use their legs that when they set the brake functions to a pressure button on the steering wheel, the handicapped folks could break with faster response times than healthy people in a regular car with brake pedals. And yet they still continue to use brake pedals to this day. Dont believe me ? .... check google... this is a well known and tested fact.)

Seriously now, pedals to the simming community are like guns to the NRA. You could only pry them away from some folks cold dead feet, LOL. In real combat, like WWII, both sides used pedals in all airframe models and combat was taking place in real time, so all sides were on equal terms. With HL, where many folks do not use pedals and there is the added penalty of lag, then this delay becomes more of a critical factor. I would never try to convince IL2 veterans that their pedals are anything other than the 'sh!t'. I own a set of CH Pro Pedals and they certainly add to the immersion factor, I just dont use them when I face a good opponent. Another factor that has not been mentioned here is leg stress. Repeated experiments have shown that holding the legs fixed in one position for long periods of time leads to higher cortisol levels (and hence stress). Dont believe me ?... ask the auto industry who believe that some people who would not normally be susceptible to road rage, may experience it on long drives due to keep the feet fixed in relatively the same position for many hours. Although I dont have their reports in front of me to quote, I would not be surprised if you found that keeping your feet locked to your CH or Saitek/Simped Pedals for long periods of time actually lowers your combat effectiveness by a small amount over someone who has rudder mounted to say the micro-joystick on a CH Pro Throttle. When I am in combat, my legs are free to swing lose and my body can easily shift positions that a simmer who is tied to pedals cannot assume. Just something to consider.

Having said that, the delay is small and is not going to cause you to 'lose' a dogfight simply because of the neural delay factors. I can say that I did do a fun experiment with a good friend who is high level full real guy (and who owns both the Track IR and Simped pedals) on HL where we both tried to cut off each in the horizontal scissors and it seemed I was able to cut into him just slightly ahead his response time (we both flew the FW 190 D9 for its excellent roll with 25% fuel and WEP on). Whether this was due to my mapping of rudder to my mini-joystick on my Franken potato, more coffee that day than him, or the 20 msec difference in our ping times to that server is a wash. But it was fun.

Cheers - Jay

Never let the scientific method or informed fact sway you from your journey to the wrong answer.

jayhall0315
04-18-2009, 05:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
actually using pedals neurally is much more eficient since you are using BOTH hemispheres

while with twist hand you ONLY use one hemisphere </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Raaaid with all due respect, this reply is wrong. Corpus callosum transits, delay response times another roughly 20 msec depending on motion performed as multiple transactions exchange action potentials on the order of 10^6 or higher between hemispheres.

jayhall0315
04-18-2009, 06:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Actually with a twisty, you'd find yourself 'naturally' twisting the rudder when you do not want to, as well as the sensivity is a bit off-putting.

With pedals this doesn't happen as the pedals are 'down there', resulting in more precise control, to pull off some nice 'stunts'.

When I converted to pedals from a twisty, I found it a bit annoying at first but then once you get both your 'hemispheres'http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif working, all falls into place.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is real truth to this answer Freddie and 'unconscious deflection' does occur with twist sticks. This was discovered when engineers mapped control times for possible joystick use on the Lunar Lander prototypes in the late 1960s.

jayhall0315
04-18-2009, 06:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stiletto-:
.... But people wouldn't be using them if they made your flight skills worse than a twist stick, nor would people spend hundreds of dollars on them if they were only as good or marginally better.. Also, if twist sticks were better you would see them in fly-by-wire aircraft today, where they aren't there. ......

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I thought about this as well Stiletto when I wrote my joystick guide. And your reply here prompted me to get up off my lazy a## and check around.

As best I can tell, the aviation industry has introduced rudder either by electromechanical means or fly by wire digital interfaces without using rudder pedals and the resisting force in each instance has been the older generation of pilots who have not wanted to retrain to a new interface (wow, that seems like another group of people I know of http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). I will give you exact publications shortly as I am currently looking into it.

In the earliest generation of planes (roughly 1906 to 1913), significant strength was needed to actually pull the cables along pulley which controlled the rudder and this required more force than the thumb or wrist could easily manage. As pilot interfaces grew more advanced this anachronism continued to remain due to pilot traditions.

I liked the arguement though but I dont think it will hold up under the scientific method under close examination.

Jay

jayhall0315
04-18-2009, 08:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sokol__1:
Jay Hall Newbies Joystick Guide say:

"This neural delay is also the reason why rudder pedals will never function as fast or precisely as yaw being controlled from the joystick (Saitek X-52 for example) or throttle (CH Products). "

"or throttle (CH products)" means rudder in left thumb mini-stik.

True?

Sokol1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes Sokol, it means that rudder is being controlled by the X axis (horizontal movement) of the mini-joystick on the CH Pro Throttle.

Very fast and once calibrated in CH Control Manager software.... very accurate as well.

raaaid
04-19-2009, 08:18 AM
oh never mind i tried the g25 pedals but im too much of a lazy bum for them

prefer to be confortably with my legs crossed and a twisty hat even if i have worse gunnery

Sokol__1
04-19-2009, 10:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yes Sokol, it means that rudder is being controlled by the X axis (horizontal movement) of the mini-joystick on the CH Pro Throttle.
Very fast and once calibrated in CH Control Manager software.... very accurate as well.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make sense.
I need do some mode in my throttle to test this "rudder in thumb". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I dont like twist rudder in stick, due involuntary rudder imputs when using ailerons, that affect the gunnery.

Sokol1

horseback
04-19-2009, 11:29 AM
After all that science, I'm almost embarrassed to disagree.

While some may have the mental agility and physical coordination to seperate & accurately calibrate specific finger, thumb or wrist actions at the same time that they are perfoming other finger, thumb and wrist actions on both hands, I suspect that most of us do not.

Were the fingers a better and more efficient means of operating the rudder, the Saitek X45 rocker bar on the throttle would still be with us, because hundreds if not thousands of simmers would have found it better than pedals or twisty sticks, and demand it in their future controller purchases.

I imagine that the transition to TrackIR falls into the same category. I've used a CH Products Pro Throttle since before Forgotten Battles' debut; after some abortive experimentation with the mouse look on the ministick, I hit on using the Pro Throttle's POV hat and buttons 11 & 12 to look around, with 11 being assigned to Look Up and 12 assigned to Look Down.

In the Widest FOV, this gave me the full range of vision available in Cockpit Mode, and I got pretty handy at tracking the aircraft around me in a Full Real atmosphere after a couple of weeks. Then, a couple of years later, I had the cash to get TrackIR 2.

Instead of fumbling about with the thumb and index finger of my left hand, all I had to do was move my head fractionally to 'look' at preci8sely what I wanted. I had it mastered in the course of one afternoon, and set about determining the best use for those 10 new buttons I had available (and I no longer feel compelled to use Wonder Woman view on offline campaign missions. Ever.).

The beauty of pedals is that you don't have to do three things at once on one appendage to center the ball, two of which require very fine judgement (the third is trimming; I put my rudder and elevator trims on the stick's POV hat). Pedals give me a more calibrated input; a longer 'throw' makes it easieer to judge whether I'm putting in too much or too little rudder, something the very short twist axis never gave me. I was forever overcorrecting and skidding & sideslipping about the sky with that damned thing.

I think that for most people, the division of functions between stick and pedals is more natural. You get more 'feel' for how much input you are providing, and it doesn't keep you from performing a third complex function with your non-stick hand.

Rudder input is far more complex than mere reaction time. It is a lot less like applying the brakes for a panic stop in traffic or turning off a switch than jay depicts; it's much more like the difference btween attempting a long jumpshot in a contested basketball game and shotputting in a track meet. The longer throw and seperate limbs used allows for a great deal more grace under pressure.

cheers

horseback

jayhall0315
04-19-2009, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
After all that science, I'm almost embarrassed to disagree.

While some may have the mental agility and physical coordination to seperate & accurately calibrate specific finger, thumb or wrist actions at the same time that they are perfoming other finger, thumb and wrist actions on both hands, I suspect that most of us do not.

Were the fingers a better and more efficient means of operating the rudder, the Saitek X45 rocker bar on the throttle would still be with us, because hundreds if not thousands of simmers would have found it better than pedals or twisty sticks, and demand it in their future controller purchases.

I imagine that the transition to TrackIR falls into the same category. I've used a CH Products Pro Throttle since before Forgotten Battles' debut; after some abortive experimentation with the mouse look on the ministick, I hit on using the Pro Throttle's POV hat and buttons 11 & 12 to look around, with 11 being assigned to Look Up and 12 assigned to Look Down.

In the Widest FOV, this gave me the full range of vision available in Cockpit Mode, and I got pretty handy at tracking the aircraft around me in a Full Real atmosphere after a couple of weeks. Then, a couple of years later, I had the cash to get TrackIR 2.

Instead of fumbling about with the thumb and index finger of my left hand, all I had to do was move my head fractionally to 'look' at preci8sely what I wanted. I had it mastered in the course of one afternoon, and set about determining the best use for those 10 new buttons I had available (and I no longer feel compelled to use Wonder Woman view on offline campaign missions. Ever.).

The beauty of pedals is that you don't have to do three things at once on one appendage to center the ball, two of which require very fine judgement (the third is trimming; I put my rudder and elevator trims on the stick's POV hat). Pedals give me a more calibrated input; a longer 'throw' makes it easieer to judge whether I'm putting in too much or too little rudder, something the very short twist axis never gave me. I was forever overcorrecting and skidding & sideslipping about the sky with that damned thing.

I think that for most people, the division of functions between stick and pedals is more natural. You get more 'feel' for how much input you are providing, and it doesn't keep you from performing a third complex function with your non-stick hand.

Rudder input is far more complex than mere reaction time. It is a lot less like applying the brakes for a panic stop in traffic or turning off a switch than jay depicts; it's much more like the difference btween attempting a long jumpshot in a contested basketball game and shotputting in a track meet. The longer throw and seperate limbs used allows for a great deal more grace under pressure.

cheers

horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that is what the scientific method is all about. Someone throws out a hypothesis and folks start collecting data to put that hypothesis to the test. And then the debate over what the data indicates ensues. Hanging over one of the lab's entrances here at the Salk is the banner:

"Science, it just works b!tches !"

So far, I have always found this to be right. Just because a large joystick manufacturer (or auto or jet aircraft manufacturer) makes tens of thousands of a particular joystick model does not mean it is laid out the most ergonomically. Never assume large production numbers = sound ergonomics. As in the auto industry, millions would assume (since they use it in their own cars every morning) that pedals are the best way to control speed (rpms) and braking. And even many engineers in the auto industry believed this until the 1980s and much evidence has now come out that says this is not true for most humans. So why do we continue with pedals then ? .... the answer will come to you.

I would never argue with an IL2 veteran about their pedals. It would be fruitless. What science may 'say' and what a veteran IL2 simmer may 'feel' are two completely different things. One is fairly objective and can be tested quickly and definitely and the other is almost entirely subjective. I have pedals myself and I love them when I go 'sightseeing' in FSX; I just dont use them when I take on some Master in Hyperlobby. But I cant deny that they add to the immersion factor immensely and flying a virtual warbird with a twist stick does somehow feel 'wrong'. So, unless you routinely face very high level Hyperlobby players (something I do often) then dont worry about it. Enjoy the immersion and have fun. Even if on the exact specifics, the scientific method may disagree with you, it is after all a game, and fun and 'immersion' are what it is all about.

X32Wright
04-19-2009, 02:25 PM
I can't stress the need for pedals for any fli-simmer any more strongly than it is much more so for a WWWII fli-sim. When I was a noob all the vets and aces were using pedals and I didnt get them until I was almost 1 year inot the sim and they changed the way I fly the sim and finally udnerstood why the vets and aces were recommending them. If you use them with all 100 inputs they are quite a change in the way you handle the plane and can make amazing moves you cannot put off with a twist or rocker rudder switch.

jayhall0315
04-19-2009, 02:59 PM
Despite how much I like Wrighty and how often our views agree on many issues, I have to strongly disagree with him on one issue here. There is no move that someone can pull off with their pedals that I cannot pull off with the mini-joystick of my CH Pro Throttle.

I do agree with him though (and others who have posted in this thread) that if it seems you are really going to get into IL2 or flight simming and decide you are going with pedals, then best to go with them early. As several have noted, its a pain to retrain your mind later.

Input range is input range... nothing else to it.

JG7_SITH
04-19-2009, 11:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
i have some cash and dont know what to spend it in, maybe pedals, i use racing pedals now

how much do good pedals improve your gunnery? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it's not broke dont fix it ....

Black_Ops7
04-20-2009, 07:59 AM
If you have racing wheel pedals laying around and whant to use them in IL2 or a other sim but dont want to connect the whole wheel, then this is a nice piece of HW to have:

http://www.leobodnar.com/products/DFPG25conn/