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Sturmvogel66
12-01-2004, 01:21 AM
I understand that this has been talked about a lot, but it just seems there has to be a way to make it not so unrealistic. I am flying a DCG campaign in Poland 1939 in my bf109E-4 and my flight swoops down on a flight of P11c's. My first pass renders one of the enemy fighters with an oil leak, which will eventually lead to a ditch (usually). Now why, after this enemy fighter is belching dark grey oil smoke, does my wingman then feel the need to dive in and spend half his ammo to completely obliterate the enemy fighter? The same thing happened in another instance, I hit one of the enemy fighters so bad that he started belching black smoke, which usually turns into an engine fire. Except, just like usual, my wingman comes diving in only to again waste half his ammo to completey destroy this fighter. It is rather stupid that they don't use a little more common sense (I know its just a computer, but still) I mean, there should be a way that if an enemy fighter is leaking black smoke, or an oil leak, it should be considered off limits, and in turn that fighter should try and get away from the fight and not keep fighting with all the damage sustained. I am not just writing this because I feel my kills were stolen, I don't care about that, its that later in those missions, we were jumped by more P11c's and my squadmates didnt have the ammo to continue the fight. So it was left to me to fight three P11c's. It just seems like it would add to the realism, and get rid of the craziness if this was looked into. I am a die hard offline kinda guy, as I like the realism and the flight itself, not just the pvp combat. The offline campaigns and AI aspects should not be overlooked. Thanks, and I don't mean this to sound like a rant, I guess I just got a little frustrated at my dumb wingmen, they wil definitely be getting a talk from me tomorrow. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Sturmvogel66
12-01-2004, 01:21 AM
I understand that this has been talked about a lot, but it just seems there has to be a way to make it not so unrealistic. I am flying a DCG campaign in Poland 1939 in my bf109E-4 and my flight swoops down on a flight of P11c's. My first pass renders one of the enemy fighters with an oil leak, which will eventually lead to a ditch (usually). Now why, after this enemy fighter is belching dark grey oil smoke, does my wingman then feel the need to dive in and spend half his ammo to completely obliterate the enemy fighter? The same thing happened in another instance, I hit one of the enemy fighters so bad that he started belching black smoke, which usually turns into an engine fire. Except, just like usual, my wingman comes diving in only to again waste half his ammo to completey destroy this fighter. It is rather stupid that they don't use a little more common sense (I know its just a computer, but still) I mean, there should be a way that if an enemy fighter is leaking black smoke, or an oil leak, it should be considered off limits, and in turn that fighter should try and get away from the fight and not keep fighting with all the damage sustained. I am not just writing this because I feel my kills were stolen, I don't care about that, its that later in those missions, we were jumped by more P11c's and my squadmates didnt have the ammo to continue the fight. So it was left to me to fight three P11c's. It just seems like it would add to the realism, and get rid of the craziness if this was looked into. I am a die hard offline kinda guy, as I like the realism and the flight itself, not just the pvp combat. The offline campaigns and AI aspects should not be overlooked. Thanks, and I don't mean this to sound like a rant, I guess I just got a little frustrated at my dumb wingmen, they wil definitely be getting a talk from me tomorrow. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Antonio_MRZ
12-01-2004, 01:53 AM
Agree.
I expect that a rookie wingman could jump on a smoking enemy to finish it
and earn glory, surely not a veteran wingman.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sturmvogel66:
(...)
I am a die hard offline kinda guy, as I like the realism and the flight itself, not just the pvp combat. The offline campaigns and AI aspects should not be overlooked. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
(...)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

_Strongly_ agree. Offline simmers (there are many of them, who cannot afford
the practice and immersion needed to go online, or simply prefer fighting the
computer, or even more simply like that nobody sees them crash on landing
after shooting down 3 enemy bombers... :-) ) should not be overlooked.

Anyway the AI of the game is good and always improving, so I hope for the best.

Antonio

Sturmvogel66
12-01-2004, 02:05 AM
Well, admittedly, I do see rookie wingmen do it practically 100% of the time, but even the Veteran wingmen, (and I tried each skill setting in Lowengrin's DCG) tend to feel the need to obliterate the poor little bastards.

DuxCorvan
12-01-2004, 07:19 AM
It's not only that. Why an I-16 pilot, don't matter how brave he is, after all his mates are getting home, crosses again all the Gulf of Finland just to jump alone on my airfield and harass me until he gets killed by axis AAA?

Why this never-ending chasing against all odds just because they have ammo left and enemies are in a radius of 10 km. Why have all my mates to attack once and again a ground target when there's no ordnance left and they're under heavy defences?

They attack 1 to 20, they don't mind if they have no chance of success and have a faster plane that would allow them to flee unharmed.

They won't ever make fast bounces and leave, they always have to be back, and back, and back for more. Victory or death, very glorious, but stupid and unrealistic most times.

The AI behaves horribly in matters of tactics. They're simply suicidal.

That's what I think is worst in matter of offline immersion. The worst part is that online humans also behave the same usually.

slarsson
12-01-2004, 11:33 AM
What's more annoying is this.....

After a few hit, my aircraft usually becomes rather difficult to control because of wing or control surface damge, so I run for home.
However, often you see the AI planes belching smoke, or even burning, but they still fight and fly like there is no problem.........

Sturmvogel66
12-01-2004, 01:13 PM
I agree with both the above posts....all of it is too true. Also, when you are on a ground attack mission, and you are about 1 minute from target, and then there are enemy planes all of a sudden within 10 km, every plane in the fligth drops bombs and pursues. They would rather screw up their objective just because the enemy is within their radar range when they could have easily gotten to target, dropped bombs, then returned to fight the enemy. Its crazy. I just watched as a 109 latched onto the tail of a p11c and rendered his engine useless, rather than leave it at that while there are about 6 other enemy planes to worry about, the 109 stays on him and continues to fire, even when the plane catches fire. Its like they either go until the pilot bails, or is killed. Thats just insane, its about killing the plane, not the pilot.

SeaFireLIV
12-01-2004, 01:53 PM
Dont agree with all this gang-rape of the AI. But then it`s me, the great defender of the AI that can`t defend itself!

Well I do understand, Sturmvogel66 a bit. Sometimes AI does take a smoker you leave alone, but I`ve also seen the AI leave a smoker alone. To me, it`s human to dive and try to finish off that smoker. But why not just order the AI away with the `BREAK` command or `REJOIN`? Or don`t you use the TAB key? Some DF Onliners do worse than this, so count ya blessings.

DuxCorvan, you`re a good chap, but I`m not sure if you`re talking tongue-in-cheek or serious. But anyway, I say, why shouldn`t the AI chase you if he`s got enough ammo and fuel. You`re the enemy, you attacked his homeland, destroyed his home - family and now you think to get away? No! Now he`s gonna do his bit for revenge while he can. There are many brave and perhaps foolish adventures where fighter pilots have gone too far, far too long in attempts at revenge. Remember, these guys had to show results, Stalin`s `Not one step backwards` in part applied to pilots too! Soviet pilots were also rewarded with cash sometimes for kills. Although I`ve had instances of the AI turning home when it reaches my friendly Carriers in the PF, or Airfield, friendly borders on the Eastern front...

In the Russian theatre, they often knew they had little chance of success but attacked anyway, often been slaughtered happily by eager Luftwaffe pilots. Russian pilots sometimes took off feeling that `they were dead already` in the early years.

Oh and don`t forget HATRED. HATRED + need for REVENGE is a potent brew. (ok, so AI doesn`t really feel this, blah, but in the context of WWII total war it applies).

Russian fighters in the early years didn`t really bounce like Luftwaffe. But maybe you mean the Luftwaffe in which case you are correct.

I really think you guys don`t consider things in the spirit of the war at the time. Anthony Beevor`s Stalingrad`s a great start to getting the feel of both the Russian and German side of things.

And yes, many online pilots act WORSE imho.

@slarsson
Not true. Often when AI`s hit they may APPEAR ok, but you`ll see that moments later they`ll often lose height, fly in ever diminishing circles and eat dirt. If you are really careless, they may get a shot off at you. But their plane`s ability to dogfight becomes almost useless.

@ Sturmvogel66
Yes, fighters do drop bombs and engage enemy fighters if near. But agin, this is a difficult situation. I`ve lead a flight of fighters on bombing runs. I can see enemy fighters approach, I order,"REJOIN" - This stops the fighters from engaging the enemy and they stay on the bombing, but then I hear the scream of my rearmost fighter, he goes down in flames. I stay on target, more calls from number 2 & 3 as they are attacked- then I see tracer flashing past my cockpit. I have to drop my bombs and order everyone to engage fighters!

It`s difficult. Do you decide to stay on the bomb run and be shot to pieces or break when you see fighters and engage. If it`s hard for a Human then it`s triply hard for AI. Perhaps Oleg can work something out on this.

Again, on point about AI shooting up enemy when other enemy`s are near. Fair point, but again to expect an AI to think, "I`ll shoot this one up a bit till he`s burning or smoking so that I can deal with the 5 or 6 other bogeys around me" is asking a bit much of AI. You`re asking for AI that CAN THINK IN ADVANCE! Come on, let`s be realistic.

This sort of AI is surely years away... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

But Oleg`s always finding a way to improve things so who knows? Maybe he`ll find a way.

DuxCorvan
12-01-2004, 05:04 PM
Seafire, I don't mean isolated cases of desperate and avenging Soviet pilots who charge on the enemy.

I refer to AI of any nationality which follows you beyond returning point over enemy territory mission after mission.

I refer to outnumbered 109s bouncing unprevented La-7s given a clear tactical advantage -totally correct- but then turning immediatly after losing advantage to face a sure death against a superior enemy, both wasting their lives and their expensive rides. And a true pilot never does so. Not every time. They use advantage, and once this is lost, they try to disengage and seek another better chance.

In RL WW2, combats rarely lasted more than a few seconds, some brief minutes as a maximum. In PF/FB combats ALWAYS last until everyone has ran out of ammo and fuel, or is disabled.

This is NOT realistic. Anger is a true premise in a war. But a constantly angry guy is to be dismissed from service. Your work is to win a wr, not suicide and get your mates killed with bursts of rage flames in your eyes. Not every day.

You're too romantic, Seafire... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gato__Loco
12-01-2004, 05:29 PM
I think AI is pretty good, and it has been improving gradually in each new patch. Still, some aspects of AI tactics are really really bad. I've seen AI planes wasting ammo on a burning enemy, kamikaze pilots (not Japanese) attacking singlehanded a large number of enemies instead of escaping, damaged planes that keep fighting, planes hit by flak that keep on flying instead of returning to base, etc.etc.
I don't agree with SeaFire. Some of these behaviours are easy to fix, because the software knows the location and status of all planes and objects at all times, so the AI can "think in advance" fairly easy. Here are some examples of pseudocode:

IF (enemy_plane IS smoking OR burning) THEN (do not attack)

This should be easy to implement. The program has a flag (a state variable) to indicate when a plane has received enough damage and to start the graphics routine that plots smoke or fire. Just pass that flag to the AI behaviour routine. When the flag is ON, ignore that plane. The AI does not need to "think", just react to a flag. The flag should be related to smoke or fire, because a real pilot would know for sure that plane is doomed. By ignoring the doomed plane, the AI attacks some other foe if there is one nearby.

IF (number friendly planes / number enemy planes) &lt; 0.1 THEN (escape)

Again pretty easy. The program knows the location of all planes, friendly and foes. If the ratio of enemy planes nearby is higher than a set number (10 to 1 for example), automatically fly to the homebase. This ratio could be a function of the AI pilot skill. Veteran pilots could deal with 10 enemy planes, while novice pilots would flee when outnumbered 3 to 1. Also could be a funtion of plane speed. No point in trying to escape if the AI plane is way slower than the enemy planes.

IF (damaged) AND (no foes nearby) AND (distance to target&gt; 20 miles) THEN (return to base)

There is no point on having planes damaged by flak to keep flying if there are no enemy planes nearby and if the target is far away. That plane should return to base instead of keep flying and eventually crash. Again, pretty easy to solve.

IF (ammo=0) and (bullet hit=1) then (EVASIVE MANOUVER)
I hate when you shoot to an enemy plane and it keeps flying as if nothing is happening. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Similar rules could avoid suicidal attacks and other dummy behaviours that are total immersion killers.

SeaFireLIV
12-01-2004, 06:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
You're too romantic, Seafire... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, never been called that before!

Sturmvogel66
12-01-2004, 06:12 PM
GatoLoco, I like your thinking. And yes, Seafire, what in the world are you trying to say? I think you have been watching too many war movies where the good guy gets surrounded and all of a sudden thinks of his dear wife and children and gets the nerve to stand up to the overwhelming force and wins because and only because he is the hero of the movie. Haha, get a grip. (Less movies)

SeaFireLIV
12-01-2004, 06:22 PM
Well, maybe so. But I think I`ve a reasonable grip on it and I`m so far the ONLY one who`s actually put across some authentic reference material to all this stuff (Anthony Beevor`s `Stalingrad`, `Combat Kill` Morgan & Seibel). Stuff I`ve read, not just what I `think`...

I see no reference evidence from any of you guys romantic or not, getting a grip or not. Only `I think`.

Sturmvogel66
12-01-2004, 11:45 PM
Okay, yes, you have the written proof. But, let me put it this way. Put yourself in the cockpit of a WW2 fighter back in those times, and tell me you would do all of those things without thought of your safety? I can see the rare cases of heroes and crazy people being the ones that are published, but the normal bonafide aviator didn't always do the heroic thing.

SeaFireLIV
12-02-2004, 02:19 AM
Well, anyway, if anyone actually read my main post properly I was initially referiing to the Russian reaction to the German attack, because
DuxCorvan mentioned the I16 chasing him across the Gulf of Finland and the way they seemed to be madly brave. I was trying to point out the circumstances of the situation at the time, but obviously this doesn`t apply to all other nations of the world in quite the same way(perhaps the japanese towards the end).

Personally, I often play as an I16 pilot and find myself being chased by eager 109s, but they often turn back home after a while. Sometimes one will chase even over an airfield until he`s hit, then he`ll try running. I like that odd, different situation.


I also admitted to other errors of AI and hopefully they will be corrected. My worry, of course, is that some of the `randomness` of AI may be choked out unintentionally by complaints. I also feel that some perceived `AI errors` are actually not erors depending on each person`s point of view. The fact that sometimes AI chase you down, the fact that sometimes he`ll attack a plane already smoking, etc : I often think, "He`s killing that smoking, burning Jap plane because of what happened at pearl."

These are actually very Human things to do in the heat of the moment, how many times have pilots claimed multiple kills in reality on ONE opponent? And it would be sad to see AI turned into a sterile perfect little machine that never sometimes did `human` things.

Yes I want AI to bounce and run realistically, I want AI to sometimes leave a smoker if he`s potentially dead too, But let`s allow some `human` qualities, ie mistakes, overzealousness, etc.

Sturmvogel66
12-02-2004, 12:18 PM
You are right, there are opinions that form each persons idea of how AI should and shouldnt act. And I agree with what you are saying in certain circumstances (Russia, Japan). But, as much as a pilot would be eager to get the kill, if he was sitting there behind a smoking plane that seemed disabled trying to get it to explode while there were 5 others starting to latch onto his tail, I don't think he would be that smart considering his now diminishing odds. That was my main point of this post, the stupidity of AI to size up the situation, they get caught on one enemy, and the rest might as well be dead already to them. They don't even know they are there.