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taiterbud
02-04-2005, 10:48 AM
Despite some of the unfinished parts of the whole AEP+PF merged games, there are those moments that never cease to amaze me. Last night I got in tangle with a 109 (offline) in a spit V. I had the AI set to veteren, and after a decent dogfight I was able to knock out his engine. I circled and watched as the AI pilot glided his busted up crate and belly landed it in a field. As I circled above I saw the pilot get out of the plane and run for cover. At that point a thought crossed my mind. If this was really WWII and this was happening to me in real life what would I do? Would I watch the man run away knowing that I may have to face him in the air again maybe resulting in less fortunate situation for myself or for some other one of my comrads who may end up killed by him? Or straff him and block it out of my mind that I killed a pilot without his airplane. Isnt that like killing a man in a fencing dual when he doesnt have a sword? Needless to say I swooped down like a hawk stalking a mouse and straffed the poor guy running away with MG fire. All I saw was the snow and dust cloud up around him. What decision would you have taken? I'm curious to hear everyone's opinion, and if anyone has some reallife stories on the subject, I'm intrested.

taiterbud
02-04-2005, 10:48 AM
Despite some of the unfinished parts of the whole AEP+PF merged games, there are those moments that never cease to amaze me. Last night I got in tangle with a 109 (offline) in a spit V. I had the AI set to veteren, and after a decent dogfight I was able to knock out his engine. I circled and watched as the AI pilot glided his busted up crate and belly landed it in a field. As I circled above I saw the pilot get out of the plane and run for cover. At that point a thought crossed my mind. If this was really WWII and this was happening to me in real life what would I do? Would I watch the man run away knowing that I may have to face him in the air again maybe resulting in less fortunate situation for myself or for some other one of my comrads who may end up killed by him? Or straff him and block it out of my mind that I killed a pilot without his airplane. Isnt that like killing a man in a fencing dual when he doesnt have a sword? Needless to say I swooped down like a hawk stalking a mouse and straffed the poor guy running away with MG fire. All I saw was the snow and dust cloud up around him. What decision would you have taken? I'm curious to hear everyone's opinion, and if anyone has some reallife stories on the subject, I'm intrested.

Jester_159th
02-04-2005, 11:00 AM
Well, apart from the moral issues involved, wouldn't you be more worried (IRL) about making sure that his wingman wasn't planning to blow you away while you're admiring your marksmanship?

The moral question is much more complex and almost impossible to answer since, in most cases, people in high stress situations will react in ways totally different from what even they would expect from themselves.

But from a practical point of view: You still have to get back to base. Why waste your limited ammo supply if you can't be sure you won't need it? Afterall, how ironic would it be to use the last of your ammo to kill a downed pilot....Then run into the rest of his squadron on the way home?

Could be a very interesting discussion this one though.

ytareh
02-04-2005, 11:01 AM
Interesting one !I guess as the decades pass war becomes more and more TOTAL.I can certainly see your point and would probably be 65-35 with you on that one but where does it all end, straffing a kindergarten cos they will grow up to bomb your family?geneva Convention?I hope I never have to go to war...!Its only a game I suppose maybe we should leave it that way....

BSS_Goat
02-04-2005, 11:03 AM
I think if you had seen enough of your friends wounded, maimed and killed, you would not think twice about it. I know I would get some payback.

taiterbud
02-04-2005, 11:04 AM
Although your questions about my particular experience are not really the question at hand, let me answer them in defence of my own dignity. First of all he was the last of the 6 bandits enountered. Second of all, my wingman was with me, and the second section was also patrolling the area. So I felt very safe in observing the outcome. Thirdly, it doesnt take but a 1 or 2 second burst of MG to kill a person on the ground. The amount of ammo I used was a non-factor. Anyway, thats some more of the specifics, but its the real question at hand I'm after. True its just a game, its just food for thought and makes a good discussion thats all.

Jester_159th
02-04-2005, 11:08 AM
Don't get me wrong, Taiterbud. I wasn't intending to be judgemental. If anything I was trying to look at the question objectively.

If it came across wrong, you have my apologies.

taiterbud
02-04-2005, 11:13 AM
ohhh no worries Jester, I wasnt at all offended, others were probably wondering the same thing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

papaboon
02-04-2005, 11:13 AM
Without a doubt€¦I€d strafe him and not even think twice about it!

Your job is to kill the enemy!

"There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
- General George Patton

HW3
02-04-2005, 11:41 AM
I suppose it would depend on whether it was in enemy territory or friendly territory. If there was a good to excellent chance he would be captured, I would not strafe him. Chances are that if I wanted to make sure he would not be around to fly again, I would have continued to hammer away at his plane till he landed, trying to blow it up and kill him that way. To take a chance and strafe him on the ground, behind his lines, is putting yourself in danger of being shot down by ground fire. So, one must consider whether strafing a enemy pilot on the ground is worth the risk of being shot down and captured, or killed.

DuxCorvan
02-04-2005, 12:31 PM
I would strafe him. Then I would land my plane in a nearby plane, take his silver and gold, throw off his identificative items, burn his letters, pics and documents, and cut his head off as a trophy. Before leaving I would pi$$ on his maimed body and laugh as a maniac. Back in the base, I'd made a good ashtray with his casquet. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

I'm not a Sister of Mercy, I'm a killer with a free license, and war is like Disneyland for evil guys like me, ha ha ha. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Ehem... sorry. It's that voice inside my head, again... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

BSS_Goat
02-04-2005, 12:33 PM
DuxCorvan:
You liar, you would try to have sex w/ him.

Aero_Shodanjo
02-04-2005, 12:38 PM
Aside from moral issues, I think it's quite interesting to know that many aces from both sides of the war still expecting to see enemy pilots to bail out after shooting down their planes.

In more than one occasion Ive read that they - perhaps - felt troubled somehow when there was no parachute sighted.

But it could depend on where the front was as well. Hartmann (?) stated that he noted the differences between the airwar in the west vs east. In the west, he said, atleast he can expect to be treated better if he got himself shotdown whereas in the east he couldnt expect to receive the same treatment.

But there were exceptions for both sides, ofcourse. I believe there are records, even from allied sources that stated pilots attacked enemy pilots who managed to bail out.

Anyway, if I was a WWII pilot, I think I will see my duty as "shooting down the plane, not the pilot". Sort of breaking the sword of your enemy. Although - as BSS_Goat stated - if I've seen my friends got maimed, killed in his parachute or strafed after he landed, etc, I might not think twice to retaliate in the same manner.

cwojackson
02-04-2005, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
Aside from moral issues, I think it's quite interesting to know that many aces from both sides of the war still expecting to see enemy pilots to bail out after shooting down their planes.

In more than one occasion Ive read that they - perhaps - felt troubled somehow when there was no parachute sighted.

But it could depend on where the front was as well. Hartmann (?) stated that he noted the differences between the airwar in the west vs east. In the west, he said, atleast he can expect to be treated better if he got himself shotdown whereas in the east he couldnt expect to receive the same treatment.

But there were exceptions for both sides, ofcourse. I believe there are records, even from allied sources that stated pilots attacked enemy pilots who managed to bail out.

Anyway, if I was a WWII pilot, I think I will see my duty as "shooting down the plane, not the pilot". Sort of breaking the sword of your enemy. Although - as BSS_Goat stated - if I've seen my friends got maimed, killed in his parachute or strafed after he landed, etc, I might not think twice to retaliate in the same manner. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Kind of like how "most" military action at sea went. You tried your best to sink the enemy, but once their ship went under the people in the water were seamen in distress and you did your best to save them from the common enemy...the sea.

LeadSpitter_
02-04-2005, 12:55 PM
I definatly would have strafed him so he could not kill again if I seen friends die in the result of his actions.

Alot of germans shot b17 pilot bailing for bombing berlin alot of americans shot germans bailing for killing friends of thiers in b17s. he111s spits hurricanes in bob as well. Same goes for all sides as well russian, german, japanese, american poland all had thier suicide pilots taran, rammjadgers, kamikazi, suicide runs to sink the japanese carriers in the pto etc.

the onlytime I read about honoring a pilot was in wwi when the french honored the red baron after his death more then the pilot who shot him down.

bss_goat you made me breathe coffee into my nose with that comment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

murewa
02-04-2005, 01:03 PM
I am presently reading "the blonde knight of germany" about hartmann and just read an interesting little anecdote:

it tells of a JG52 flight late in the war in which one of the new under-trained pilots is shot down by an LA-5. The LA pilot watched the 109 pilot make a crash landing and get out alive and crawl into a ditch in order to hide from the Russian troops already looking for him (and failing miserably to locate him). On seing this, the pilot landed his LA-5 nearby, got out and went into the ditch where he strangled the german.

at first I found this shocking, but thinking about it I found it less and less so. Who knows what trauma this russian pilot had faced during the war or how many comrades he had lost to the german pilots. I think that the chivalry of war will always disapear if the war is long enough, the emotianal strain of war makes such actions understandable.

so I wouldn't strafe him, I'd land, get out and strangle him face to face, just to be sure he couldn't jump me later. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Smidlee
02-04-2005, 01:16 PM
I'm so thankful for the men who die for my country so I don't have to answer that question.

womenfly
02-04-2005, 01:20 PM
You guy's are very scary! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Aero_Shodanjo
02-04-2005, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by womenfly:
_You guy's are very scary!_

http://www.wasp-wwii.org/wasp/images/fifinell.gif

Womenfly2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But your sig scares me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

lol j/k http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DuxCorvan
02-04-2005, 01:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
DuxCorvan:
You liar, you would try to have sex w/ him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And still he'd oppose resistance! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Why have I to be so ugly...? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

turnipkiller
02-04-2005, 03:55 PM
I remember reading an allied pilot's account of a dogfight where he was victorious over his adversary. I cannot recall if he was a P-51 or P-47 pilot.
He was alone during and after the dogfight and had no way of having his kill confirmed. He figured that he would use his gun camera to snap a few photos of the enemy pilot hanging in his chute to prove he downed him. He was about to press the camera button with his guns de-activated, when in the back of his mind he remembered a warning given to him about the machine guns sometimes firing when the gun camera button was pressed, a sort of electrical glitch that occured very rarely. He decided to have an unconfirmed kill and didn't take the pictures because he didn't want to take the chance of shooting the pilot in his parachute.

Myself, I don't shoot people hanging in their chutes or running on the ground. Call me a wuss but I always feel bad when I don't see parachutes coming out of a plane I have downed, even when it's AI lol. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

DuxCorvan
02-04-2005, 05:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by turnipkiller:
He was alone during and after the dogfight and had no way of having his kill confirmed. (...) He decided to have an unconfirmed kill and didn't take the pictures because he didn't want to take the chance of shooting the pilot in his parachute. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He obviously lied. So he killed two birds with a single shot: brating about a kill he never got, and concealing the no confirmation with a nice history of honor and chivalry that, no doubt, he used to tell in the bar to impress the chicks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FoolTrottel
02-04-2005, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HW3:
I suppose it would depend on whether it was in enemy territory or friendly territory. If there was a good to excellent chance he would be captured, I would not strafe him. Chances are that if I wanted to make sure he would not be around to fly again, I would have continued to hammer away at his plane till he landed, trying to blow it up and kill him that way. To take a chance and strafe him on the ground, behind his lines, is putting yourself in danger of being shot down by ground fire. So, one must consider whether strafing a enemy pilot on the ground is worth the risk of being shot down and captured, or killed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This would be my respons exactly!

The phrase (Was it Chuck Yeager that uttered it?)
"The real hero is the pilot who lives to fight another day."
can be viewed upon from two sides, as in you, or as in the pilot who's plane you downed ......

You know how the Red Baron got shot down? He got too low... over enemy territory....

taiterbud
02-04-2005, 05:39 PM
Here is an actuall experience from Walter Konantz, a P-51 pilot late Januray 1945 when he met up with German ace Waldemar Belasus.

It should not have been much of a contest. Belasus€ ME-109 was more powerful and faster. But Konantz felt that his propeller-driven P-51 €œMustang€ was €œthe best airplane in the world; nothin€ could touch it.€ So early in the afternoon, over the small town of Itzhoe, First Lt. Konantz in the plane he€d named €œSaturday Night€ sighted and began to chase Belasus€ €œBlue 32.€ For 20 minutes, at speeds of 260 miles an hour, the two soared and swooped, turning again and again around a brewing company smokestack in the town center. Finally, Belasus dipped so low, €œhis propeller tips were just inches off the snow, blowing up snow behind him like a car on a dusty road.€
Temporarily blinded, Konantz continued to pursue, guns blazing; minutes later, the German crashed his plane into a snowy field where it skidded several hundred feet before slamming into a clump of trees. Circling, Konantz saw Belasus climb out of the cockpit, one foot on the wing. €œAnd as I went by, he saluted me,€ Konantz recalls, almost fondly.

A WORTHY ADVERSARY
The victor could have opened fire upon the vanquished; but in that instant, Konantz recognized not an enemy but a worthy adversary. So he held his fire, choosing instead to fly over one more time, this time €œrocking my wings to acknowledge his salute.€
Konantz never saw Belasus again. For the next 40 years, he made inquiries, wrote letters, even searched through German military files. Finally, with the help of Belasus€ one-time flight commander, Konantz learned that his rival had survived the war and had died of natural causes in 1989 €" but that he had a son, now a German banker, who was almost totally ignorant of his father€s exploits. While Konantz and the son have never met €" though they have communicated by phone and mail €" in the home of each hangs a framed drawing of the 1945 dog-fight.

JunkoIfurita
02-04-2005, 05:40 PM
Mmm, there is never any logic in losing precious altitude to strafe a downed target. If you are in friendly territory, the pilot will captured, you can at least bet on that.

If you're over enemy territory, you never know where an AA gun will be concealed, or that flight of fighters you 'could have sworn' weren't around before.

Moral issues aside, that sort of thing was what got pilots court-martialled for putting themselves and their wingmen at unneccesary risk.

LEXX_Luthor
02-04-2005, 05:41 PM
It all "depends" I guess.

Read story of P~47 pilot who shot up Me~262 near landing. Me~262 landed, and the pilot appeared injured, or so the P~47 pilot wrote. The German groundcrew ran out to the pilot and the P~47 pilot flew home remembering how his ground crew ran out to him when he landed injured. Or that's what he wrote up anyway. Odd where was the flak? mmm, just don't know about this one.

Jester is right about strafing parachutes being a bad idea in combat. Over Poland, Bf~110 pilot began to strafe a parachute of P.11 pilot, and another P.11 shot the Bf~110 down. Dumb move.

JunkoIfurita
02-04-2005, 05:55 PM
LEXX you are right it all depends.

It's always possible that there is no or minimal risk, but it is always possible that something you haven't considered is waiting around the corner ready to pounce on you.

Prudence is what kept the aces alive - Hartmann regularly didn't engage if he didn't like his chances.

Desert Fox did, and often won. But then Desert Fox died in the air, and Hartmann lived into his 80s.

On the other hand I'm sure plenty of the aces regularly took risks (such as strafing downed pilots) when they had considered the risks and thought them acceptable.

So yes, it all depends.

----

icrash
02-04-2005, 06:13 PM
I read something where a 109 pilot found a crippled B-17 limping back home. He watched the gunners some injured, and looked as they where doing everything to save the plane. Instead of shooting them down, he escorted them to the English coast. He then turned and flew back to base.

horseback
02-04-2005, 06:49 PM
Every situation is different; If I'm a Russian from the western part of that country whose family had been killed, injured, raped, routed from their homes or forced into slave labor, I think I'd be all about killing Germans, any Germans, wherever they could be found.

If I'm an Englishman whose cities had been bombed, whose family members had been killed or wounded, whose homes had been destroyed, whose friends in the Navy or merchant fleet had been sunk by U-Boats, and whose comrades had been shot down in flames all over Western Europe, I might choose to be more forgiving, but it would be a choice, and dependent upon the circumstances and military necessities of the situation.

If I'm a Yank, my family is probably safe in the States except for those of us in the military and Merchant Marine. My only moral excuse for shooting Germans in their 'chutes is if I've seen them shooting at my comrades in their 'chutes.

However, the military reality is that if a German pilot takes to his chute, he floats down into the arms of his own people, and he'll be back up in the air, older and wiser, looking for me and my buddies tomorrow, while the buddies I see take to their chutes are lost as a military asset to my country. A lot of the guys used that math, and shot the Germans in their 'chutes without fear of reprimand.

cheers

horseback

Qbeesh800
02-04-2005, 07:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by papaboon:
Without a doubt€¦I€d strafe him and not even think twice about it!

Your job is to kill the enemy!

"There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
- General George Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you a german Papaboon? Germans like killing defensless people. My grandfather was a pilot of P11c in 1939. He told me stories about german pilots strafing running civilians and downed polish pilots just for fun. Friend of my grandpa saved german pilot on the ground. He landed nearby and sved his life becouse angry civilians wanted to kill him. My grandfather and his brothers in arm were knights of the sky. I would do the same for Luftwaffe pilot, but i would show no mercy for the SS infantry column. They were no humans. But the war has ended 60 years ago, and we should forget about it. We only should remember men like my grandfather and men who gave their lifes for us.

han freak solo
02-04-2005, 08:53 PM
I know it's just a movie, but...

Remember in "Saving Private Ryan" where actor Tom Hanks' squad has to take out a machine gun nest and they lose a US soldier. The squad has a bit of a "discussion" on what to do with the lone German survivor of the machine gun nest. Hanks character lets him go, unarmed, and in the direction of US forces to be captured by other US forces.

In the last battle (in the movie) that same German soldier was back with his countrymen, armed, fighting, and killing his enemy (US Army).

If I was let go, I would have tried to get back to my unit and keep on fightin', too. The country of origin has nothing to do with it.

HotelBushranger
02-04-2005, 09:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My grandfather and his brothers in arm were knights of the sky. I would do the same for Luftwaffe pilot, but i would show no mercy for the SS infantry column. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. Definitely in WW1, and in WW2 there was a certain notion of chivalry in the sky, which I think is what makes it something to be admired and respected. I have read many times of opposing pilots dogfighting, then one of them is shot down. He accepts it, smiles and salutes the victor. It's showing respect for your adversary. Even in the dirtiness of war, there is a glimmer of morality, of chivarly, which I have only/mostly read of happening in the air.

One quote from a book:
"a small parenthesis here. There were other surprising bursts of humanity from the Japanese enemy, even amid all the carnage. One that had come to Osmar White's attention, which had occurred early in the campaign, was when a Digger with a broken ankle was being carried on a stretcher through a large patch of kunai grass at the bottom of a gorge, and a Japanese plane suddenly appeared from nowhere. The two natives, fearing the murderous machine-gun fir that was surely to come, fled for their lives, leaving the Digger powerless to do anything but lie on the stretcher looking straight up at the man who was about to kill him.
'But' as White would write, 'the Jap...merely leaned out of his seat, waved and left.'
Close parenthesis.

You see, even though it is war, and your job is to kill the enemy, a certain level of respect and humanity has to be maintained, otherwise everyone would just be blood thirsty murderers. I know I wouldnt want to be one of those, if I was a pilot in WW1/2 I would without a doubt act morally and ethically. It's what defines a war pilot, and a bloke in a plane with a bunch of guns in the wings. You never read in books about a certain ace, who downed another ace, and then proceeded to shoot his parachute up, and then reflect and say 'Wow, what a man.' No you don't, you read of an ace downing an ace, and saluting a worthy adversary, regardless of their nationality.

It's a matter of 'treat others how you would want to be treated'. I certainly wouldn't want my chute shot up at 5,000 feet, falling to my ceratin death, my last few minutes filled with fear and terror, and I certainly wouldn't want to do that to someone else. The ONLY time EVER I would even barely consider shooting a downed pilot, is when my closest friend/close brother was just shot down by that same pilot, whereas I would be flying out of blind rage.

J_Weaver
02-04-2005, 10:45 PM
Hmm...Thats a very interesting question. The first thought that comes to my mind is no. But the more I think about it I find it no different than fire bombing a Japanese city, bombing a 'strategic' target in a German city through solid overcast, or strafing a column of infantry. The result is the same; your still killing people innocent or not that have little or no way to defend themselves.

ronison
02-05-2005, 12:50 AM
A bit off topic but may just show how pilots and air crew thought some in part of the war.

My grandfather who I never knew, he died 5 years before I was born, was the chief engenier officer &lt;enlisted sargent&gt; and turret gunner in a B-26 in North Africa and Southern Italy in 44/45.

My father told me a story that was related to him by my grandfather about one of the first times he encounterd a ME-262.

While leading the plane that was coming in he noted that the German pilot did not open fire on his plane so he held his fire. Uppon coming even to the B-26 my grandfather could see the pilot who waved, very friendly like, to him and then banked off and left his squadron alone.

When I asked my father why my grandad did not open fire and shoot the fighter down my dads answer was: Well the pilot didnt seem to be intrested in harming them so he decided not to shoot at the plane. He also told my dad that to his best guess the pilot was probably 14 or 15 years of age which may also have had something to do with him holding his fire.

Basicly for what I have read over the years most enemy pilots would leave people in shoots alone because the "Threat" was no longer there. This is basicly the same reason my grandfather did not open fire on the 262.

RocketRobin__
02-05-2005, 01:29 AM
I wouldn't even have seen him go down.
I'm just a pilot, not a General.

F4U_Flyer
02-05-2005, 02:15 AM
In RL i think i would refrain from shooting at a helpless pilot hanging in a chute but if he didnt bail i would make sure he went in !

Now the AI is another story! I just loaded up a quick flyaround to work out the bugs in freelook and as i flew over the island the gunners on the ground started firing. I swooped in and knocked out the first one then flew level and low ( mistake ) and got the next one but not before he got me! I pulled up hard to get altitude then bailed. As i was floating down to the ground the gunners opened up on my helpless pilot , hanging in a chute until one shot found its mark and killed my pilot! Dirty #^$@#$% ! All bets are off , ill get those nasty AI's!! Saved the trk too!

trumper
02-05-2005, 03:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by icrash:
I read something where a 109 pilot found a crippled B-17 limping back home. He watched the gunners some injured, and looked as they where doing everything to save the plane. Instead of shooting them down, he escorted them to the English coast. He then turned and flew back to base. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I also believe from memory that the 109 pilot could'nt tell his colleagues of his deeds as he would've been dealt with .
http://www.cgidesign.net/con2k/speakers.html

Oberleutnant Franz Stigler
Franz Stigler was a Luftwaffe pilot who served with the 4th Gruppe, Jagdgeschwader 27 in North Africa, where he flew the Bf109F. As the tides of war changed in the North African theatre, he served in Sicily and Italy as the Allies advanced into Axis territory. During this period, Stigler claimed 15 Allied planes, all of them fighters.

During the later part of the war, he was transferred to Germany, Bulgaria and Austria, where he was pitted against the growing formations of American bombers, among them the B-17. Stigler was among the defending fighters in the legendary Schweinfurt raid, where he shot down 2 Fortresses before being forced to the silk by the tail gunner of a 3rd.

Stigler's most famous encounter was with a badly shot up, defenseless B-17 that he could not bring himself to finish off. Instead, in direct violation of orders, he escorted the B-17 to safety. Years later, he would meet the pilot of the stricken B-17, Charles Brown.

Franz Stigler ended the war at the rank of Oberleutnant with Galland's famous JV44, flying the Me262 jet bomber,with which he claimed a final pair of B-17s. He was awarded the Iron Cross 2nd Class, the Iron Cross 1st Class, and was nominated for the Knight's Cross, but the war came to its end before the award was conferred.

HotelBushranger
02-05-2005, 05:35 AM
Well, it's not your fault if they kill THEMSELVES with their own chutes, is it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://img209.exs.cx/img209/2849/notmyfault4wi.jpg

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/4535/notmyfault29jz.jpg

I rammed him head on in my Spit, and went into the drink before he did, hence the notice on the right. But after bailing out, this fool shears his wing off with his own parachute!

There is seriously something wrong with the parachutes in the series, they're like made out of titanium or something! Seriously, this needs to be addressed in the next patch! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Mjollnir111675
02-05-2005, 09:12 AM
Aww leave the man in the chute alone!!
Now if ya want to do something really cold hearted: Have 1-C model Japanese hospital ships with the red cross on them.
That way I can strafe,torp,or bomb the heck outta that and mercilessly kill any and all ppl whether maimed,injured,wounded or in fine health aboard that ship!!
Yes I am that person!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif No remorse if I dont get caught!! And even if I do get caught: "Its all in the name of.."
Hey they werent part of Geneva and that is reason to use those crosses to aim upon!!

HEY 1-C: PIMP OUR TORP PLANES!! And their targets!!

Bearcat99
02-05-2005, 10:47 AM
I guess for me that would depend on a lot of factors..... had I been shot down and bailed and lived to tell the tale? Had any of my friends? Had the been shot in thier chutes? My side of the front? His side? Did I get a nut the night before? Did I have to piss? I just dont know what i would do to tell the truth.

murewa
02-05-2005, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J_Weaver:
Hmm...Thats a very interesting question. The first thought that comes to my mind is no. But the more I think about it I find it no different than fire bombing a Japanese city, bombing a 'strategic' target in a German city through solid overcast, or strafing a column of infantry. The result is the same; your still killing people innocent or not that have little or no way to defend themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats a good point, whenever you make a ground attack or bombing strike against either a "tactical" civilian or transport target or even a lightly defended column you are killing those without any effective chance to fight back. To refrain from strafing other pilots is in a way somewhat a hypocritical moral double standard.....though it still seems a bit cold to be honest

DarthBane_
02-05-2005, 11:58 AM
That depends for which side i fly.
If the running pilot was american or british, i would strafe him without mercy, if it was a German or Japan pilot, i would leave him be.
I get bloodthursty only with strong reasons.

Mjollnir111675
02-05-2005, 12:34 PM
For me, the side I am flying for is totally irrelevant.
Doesn't matter to me. <span class="ev_code_RED">BLOOD IS BLOOD</span> and as long as I satiate my need for vengeance,retribution, and my natural bloodlust I do not care for what nation my opponent or myself are flying for!! I can go to my historical knowledge and bring up hatred for whatever nation I am currently fighting against including my own.
An enemy is an enemy and we all bleed red when wounded!!
But this is similar to a thread brought up on the SH III forums about liferafts. But in an U-boot there is more concern for a bigger picture.
Not so in an a/c(well to me) even with 10 crewmembers.I am afraid that I wouldve been either chewed out or given the medal of honor(posthumously of course!!) just because of my lack of concern for my lfe as long as the mission is complete!! Just call me the "One Mission Wonder"!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
And that also makes it kinda strange when I fly my fave flyable : THE Dauntless
Cuz I do not know who the h3ll it is in the back!!
Perhaps if multi play was truly multi and someone and myself could crew an a/c I would feel ALOT different.

HEY 1-C: PIMP OUR TORP PLANES!! And true multi ppl stationed a/c!! For BoB ...of course http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

fordfan25
02-05-2005, 01:42 PM
id kill the sucker twice. then id land take his money and boots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mjollnir111675
02-05-2005, 02:01 PM
LOL!!
I am not afraid to say I would too if I thought "tha sucka had a buck in his boot"

I dont see in any pilots mind that he was thinkin of pledgin' allegiance to his nations flag when in an intense fight aloft!!
I would either be shrivelin' or nuttin'!! Depending upon the situation.
H3ll I believe I would be defending my family and its future in Nowhere U.S. of A.,my personal piece of property before any gov't or any of its propaganda!!

HEY 1-C: PIMP OUR TORP PLANES!! "Man..this sheeot is crazy Baby!! Can Ya Dig It?,Can Ya Dig It?, Can Ya Feel It?, Is YA Wit' it? S'off tha hook Dog!! I'm out...."

Yog_Shoggoth
02-06-2005, 12:00 AM
I'd make it sporting, and try to deck him with my droppable gass tank.

Zarathael
02-06-2005, 12:10 AM
I think I read somewhere once, "do onto others as you would have them do onto you." I'd probably let him be, especially if he was behind MY lines, because well, that just might be me tomorrow. Unless of course I had seen this particular pilot do something that gave me a personal grudge to settle with him. Otherwise, he's just a guy doing his job the same as me.

WOLFMondo
02-06-2005, 04:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:

Alot of germans shot b17 pilot bailing for bombing berlin alot of americans shot germans bailing for killing friends of thiers in b17s. he111s spits hurricanes in bob as well. Same goes for all sides as well russian, german, japanese, american poland all had thier suicide pilots taran, rammjadgers, kamikazi, suicide runs to sink the japanese carriers in the pto etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've read very much to the contrary, mainly in the western front where German and British pilots would salute and let them be.

HotelBushranger
02-06-2005, 04:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That way I can strafe,torp,or bomb the heck outta that and mercilessly kill any and all ppl whether maimed,injured,wounded or in fine health aboard that ship!!
Yes I am that person!! Twisted No remorse if I dont get caught!! And even if I do get caught: "Its all in the name of.."
Hey they werent part of Geneva and that is reason to use those crosses to aim upon!!

For me, the side I am flying for is totally irrelevant.
Doesn't matter to me. BLOOD IS BLOOD and as long as I satiate my need for vengeance,retribution, and my natural bloodlust I do not care for what nation my opponent or myself are flying for!! I can go to my historical knowledge and bring up hatred for whatever nation I am currently fighting against including my own.
I am not afraid to say I would too if I thought "tha sucka had a buck in his boot"

I dont see in any pilots mind that he was thinkin of pledgin' allegiance to his nations flag when in an intense fight aloft!!
I would either be shrivelin' or nuttin'!! Depending upon the situation.
H3ll I believe I would be defending my family and its future in Nowhere U.S. of A.,my personal piece of property before any gov't or any of its propaganda!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

&lt;Whispers&gt; I don't want to fly with this guy

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif You better be joking!

Shadow1706
02-06-2005, 02:09 PM
Art. 22 "The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited."

Art. 23 "In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -...

...To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;

To declare that no quarter will be given;..."

-Hague convention IV

Something to think about.

civildog
02-06-2005, 02:58 PM
Make note of his plane's buzz number so I could look him up after the war for a drink at the O-club.

DuxCorvan
02-06-2005, 03:42 PM
The guys in the Hague Convention sure never fought in the frontline. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'd feed my dogs with his flesh, and convert his wife and daughters into my sexual slaves. I'd make a cup with his skull to drink his blood mixed with the liquors of his bar, and a flute with his leg bone, that I'd play while dancing on his empty tomb before keeping it in a sheath made with his pens foreskin... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Ooops, those voices... leave me... LEAVE MEEEE!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Zneg1
02-06-2005, 04:13 PM
Is is ALL too EASY to second guess and do lots of introspection on war and ethics. Most people do not realize is that when bullets are flying and your life is on the line, there is no ethics or morality or even POLITICS there. Joseph Campbell once said that actions in war should not be judged like it was done in peacetime for things (specially actions) are very different in war. This whole thread reminds me of a few war quotes:

"The God of War hates those who hesitate."
- Euripides, 480-406 b.c.

"War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it. "
- Desiderius Erasmus,

"War is the continuation of policy(politics) by other means."
- Karl von Clausewitz

"Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men."
- General George Patton Jr

"He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign."
-SUn Tzu's Art of War

of course its a different case when innocent civilians are involved but for somebody in a military war machine, and your objective and order is to eliminate that threat, what's the most sensible thing to do? Let this guy live so he can shoot at you back someday? You really can't just 'shoot him in the legs' with a fighter plane can you?

Of course there was the case of a Spitfire Battle of Britain ace who let a german pilot let his BF109 ditch in the water instead of shooting it down and the German widow years later thanked the british pilot for letting her husband live his post-war years with her.

Mjollnir111675
02-06-2005, 05:42 PM
How about this famous quote:

"This is the ***k!n you get for the ***k!n you gave!!!!"

Or if you wanna be all biblical on the matter:

"Eye fer an Eye!!"

Or my personal Southern born and Strong Island "Flava'd" Viking style version/interpretation:

"I have no problem goin blind if I can make as many mothers/sisters/daughters who CAN see weep as much as I can!!!"
Hey better their kids cryin on a pillow than mine!!! Sorry if this isnt politically correct!! Nor am I!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif Sorry politics just dont interest me one bit!!!

Dont declare war on a nation that breeds ppl like Manson,John Wayne(NO not the cowboy or fake @rse green beret) and the whole of south central,the whole state of Kentucky('tween drugs and guns those ppl aint right Boss Hogg!!)
But ONE man in a chute to me is not enough carnage for the expenditure of even one round from my plane!!
I believe I would wait for my plane to be hit several times 'fore I gave attention to that one guy or maybe an airbase with a boat load of tents and Soft targets!!!!
But that hospital ship,ooh man I want that chance when my planes is flamin and there isnt a chance for me to get home!!! That will really cripple their morale!!!
They never thought we could be as ruthless as them!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
HA HA HEH, here I come!!!
Wheres my Dauntless!! I was gonna trade it in on this flight for an Av3ng3r with a lil more ordnance for, well, you know!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif Just aint happ'nin' yet at this moment!! BUT IF IT DOES!!!

And Euriphedes (You-Ra-Fee-Dees) didnt know what he was handin over to those who worshipped Odin!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
Me personally I wear the "Hammer"
And NO Steve V, Crazy As All Ivan's, or the others. NOT the banhammer!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HEY 1-C: PIMP OUR TORP PLANES!! "I WILL BE HEARD!!!" Hatebreed

cwojackson
02-06-2005, 08:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mjollnir111675:
How about this famous quote:

"This is the ***k!n you get for the ***k!n you gave!!!!"

Or if you wanna be all biblical on the matter:

"Eye fer an Eye!!"

Or my personal Southern born and Strong Island "Flava'd" Viking style version/interpretation:

"I have no problem goin blind if I can make as many mothers/sisters/daughters who CAN see weep as much as I can!!!"
Hey better their kids cryin on a pillow than mine!!! Sorry if this isnt politically correct!! Nor am I!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif Sorry politics just dont interest me one bit!!!

Dont declare war on a nation that breeds ppl like Manson,John Wayne(NO not the cowboy or fake @rse green beret) and the whole of south central,the whole state of Kentucky('tween drugs and guns those ppl aint right Boss Hogg!!)
But ONE man in a chute to me is not enough carnage for the expenditure of even one round from my plane!!
I believe I would wait for my plane to be hit several times 'fore I gave attention to that one guy or maybe an airbase with a boat load of tents and Soft targets!!!!
But that hospital ship,ooh man I want that chance when my planes is flamin and there isnt a chance for me to get home!!! That will really cripple their morale!!!
They never thought we could be as ruthless as them!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
HA HA HEH, here I come!!!
Wheres my Dauntless!! I was gonna trade it in on this flight for an Av3ng3r with a lil more ordnance for, well, you know!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif Just aint happ'nin' yet at this moment!! BUT IF IT DOES!!!

And Euriphedes (You-Ra-Fee-Dees) didnt know what he was handin over to those who worshipped Odin!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
Me personally I wear the "Hammer"
And NO Steve V, Crazy As All Ivan's, or the others. NOT the banhammer!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HEY 1-C: PIMP OUR TORP PLANES!! "I WILL BE HEARD!!!" Hatebreed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I see the sensitivity sessions paid off.

BSS_Goat
02-06-2005, 09:09 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Mjollnir111675's local Walmart is out of Prozac

cwojackson
02-06-2005, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Mjollnir111675's local Walmart is out of Prozac <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Or they had a sale on Dexadrine and Viagra?

Mjollnir111675
02-06-2005, 10:45 PM
LOL!!


HEY 1-C: PIMP OUR TORP PLANES!! Before I REALLY do need that lil' pill!!!

HotelBushranger
02-07-2005, 02:09 AM
Gawd, look at his avatar. It proves it all!

BanaBob
02-07-2005, 04:51 AM
I'd have mercy on him and just shoot his legs off so he'll never be able to use the rudder again, but that's just me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

HotelBushranger
02-07-2005, 05:55 AM
BANABOB!!!
Where ya bin mate!!!

And yes, good idea http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Kuikueg
02-07-2005, 06:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
The guys in the Hague Convention sure never fought in the frontline. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'd feed my dogs with his flesh, and convert his wife and daughters into my sexual slaves. I'd make a cup with his skull to drink his blood mixed with the liquors of his bar, and a flute with his leg bone, that I'd play while dancing on his empty tomb before keeping it in a sheath made with his pens foreskin... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Ooops, those voices... leave me... LEAVE MEEEE!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And then you'd forget to remove the sheath before blowing.

DuxCorvan
02-07-2005, 06:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kuikueg:
And then you'd forget to remove the sheath before blowing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Balloon balloon he he he... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Ala11_Kal
02-07-2005, 08:59 AM
Pictures extracted from a trk file I recorded a while ago. No edited at all, just resized.

http://www.ala11.com/imagenes/Dibujo.jpg

http://www.ala11.com/imagenes/Dibujo2.jpg

http://www.ala11.com/imagenes/Dibujo3.jpg

FA_Kook
02-07-2005, 10:19 AM
Kill em All

Ala11_Kal
02-07-2005, 10:40 AM
Well, I've never been involved in a war, so I don't know if I would do it IRL or not.

When I took those pictures I was testing different ammo loads in several planes and its effects.

This guy was a collateral damage.

REDHAWK_1
02-07-2005, 12:47 PM
taiterbud:
You posed a very interesting question! I will try to answer your question in the best way as I can.
I am a VietNam Veteran, I served two Combat Tour of Duties in Nam and have fought in some of the bloodiest battles in the I Corp area. I feel that I am somewhat qualified to answer your question.
There is a saying which I believe is True now as back then. The first casualty of war is innocent.No man who ever fought in a war or been in a war has ever come out of it as the same person as when he first went in. War has a way of changing a mans out look on life and you will never be the same person ever again.
1st of all I know that this is just a game to many,especially to the younger people. No matter what Air Combat Flight Sim or war game you play, it still represents one of the most Bloodiest Battles ever fought in Mankinds History, The Air War Over Europe, where over 400,000 men lost thier lives defending in what they belived in. Also remember the men who lost thier lives in the Air in the Mediterranean and Pacific Theater Air War.
I know that a lot of people out there will disagree with me on this, but this is MOPO (My Own Personal Opinion and Experence of War).
In War you are train to do one thing and that is to kill the enemy in any way and by an means. When in hand to hand combat you show no mercy to the enemy, for if you do you are dead.
In Air Combat it is the same, if you hesitate for a split second you are dead.
I agree that Chivalry was common among Air Men in the 1st World War and in the begaining of the Second World War. As times change and the Battles begain to get hotter and heavier chivalry was put at the end of the list.Still some pilots from all sides still held a little bit of Chivalry inside of them. But that was far and in between. Is it ethical or morally right to strafe a down pilot. That mine friend is a question that has bother many a pilot in WW2.
My answer is yes I would, the reason behind it is this,
1) Your job rather it be as a footsoldier,seaman,or pilot is to destroy the enemy where ever and how ever and by any means.
True there is no Honor in it, but Honor is the last thing you worry about when the enemy is trying to kill you.
2)This enemy pilot may have strafe an innocent
column of refugee's on a road, he may be shooting down Bombers or strafing an Allied Convey.
3) You will do it because it is your job, you do it because you know that this pilot may be in the air in a day or two shooting a Bomber down or killing one of your friends.
You do it because you know if you do you will be saving lives, you may have saved a Bomber crew lives or a footsoldier life or stop him from strafing an Allied Convey or ship. I agree there is no Honor in it, but you do it because it is your job to stop him from killing more people. Just like is it right to vulch an air field. Yes it is, is it Honorable, no but every major country Air Force did it, because it is thier job to destroy enemy air planes either in the air or on the ground.
Yes it is a hard decision to make, but in war men have to make hard decision, even if they don't like it. I know from experence and I will say this, war is the most HORRIBLE thing to go through. I hope this gives you an answer, maybe to some it isn't right or Honorable, but in a real total warfare, there is no such thing as a clean war. It is dirty, horrible and full of destruction and filled with death. Those of us who have went through it hope never to see it again. Thank You all for your time. I hope I didn't bore or cause any trouble by this posting. My intention was to show that war is a dirty and horrible thing and that these men had to make some hard decision, and that no matter what war has no real Honor in it. True some men showed great Honor and Chivalry, but in the end
you still have to take life in order to save lives. REDHAWK_1
NOTE: If he was in a chute floating down to the ground I wouldn't shoot him, also I wouldn't follow him down and lose what altitude I had. But if I shot his plane bad enough where he crashed landed then, depending on the situation and everything was clear then I would. Not being hard core about it, but in order to save lives that this pilot might take later on.

Ala11_Kal
02-07-2005, 01:07 PM
Sometimes, a post in an internet forum is much more than just a few words and funny emoticons. This is one of such.

Thanks for sharing your feelings and experience REDHAWK_1.

Smidlee
02-07-2005, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by REDHAWK_1:
taiterbud:


There is a saying which I believe is True now as back then. The first casualty of war is innocent. No man who ever fought in a war or been in a war has ever come out of it as the same person as when he first went in. War has a way of changing a mans out look on life and you will never be the same person ever again.
1st of all I know that this is just a game to many ,especially to the younger people. No matter what Air Combat Flight Sim or war game you play, it still represents one of the most Bloodiest Battles ever fought in Mankinds History... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeap It just a game just like Pac-man. You even explain why it's just a game . I haven't change one bit by playing IL2 and I've not lose my innocent either. I'm exactly the same person after playing a video game. If I get killed , no big deal I just hit refly. I've been a war gamer my whole life yet I don't even like guns IRL. I have only one gun for protection and would hate to have to use it even on an animal.

Zneg1
02-07-2005, 01:10 PM
Very eloquently said...Yes war is not good and should never be glorified. This brings to mind this quote:

"It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it."
-Robert E. Lee

Indianer.
02-07-2005, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This whole thread reminds me of a few war quotes:

"The God of War hates those who hesitate."
- Euripides, 480-406 b.c.

"War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it. "
- Desiderius Erasmus,

"War is the continuation of policy(politics) by other means."
- Karl von Clausewitz

"Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men."
- General George Patton Jr

"He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign."
-SUn Tzu's Art of War

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey...arnt they from rome total war? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HerrGraf
02-07-2005, 10:02 PM
REDHAWK-1 What you said I agree with, however most people here do not have one bit of military experience. Also the view of the grunt towards an enemy is not neccessarily what a flyboy feels.
My personal view is that as long as the pilot is still in the plane, then they are fair game. Once the pilot departs from said plane than he is on his own without interference from me.
Most pilot stories of shooting defenceless opposition occurred when after defeating a great opponent, they did not want to have face him again in the future. The normal quality of pilots they were not concerned with- just the best.