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View Full Version : Has IL2 made you appreaciate what it was like to be a WW2 Pilot..??



MB_Avro_UK
06-15-2007, 06:08 PM
Hi all,

Well..has it?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Korolov1986
06-15-2007, 06:14 PM
In a word?

No.

DKoor
06-15-2007, 06:40 PM
Dunno.....
I appreciated them before IL-2 is just some sort of a filter to see a very tiny bit of what it was like...

But it's excellent for learning that's for sure.

BaldieJr
06-15-2007, 06:51 PM
No. It made me appreciate a heavy ashtray though. Of course i'm smoke-free now, but back in the day, finding a good solid ashtray was not easy.

ImpStarDuece
06-15-2007, 06:55 PM
No.

But the Ubi forums have given me an appreciation of what its like to be locked in a cage with monkeys throwing fresh poo at each other.

reisen52
06-15-2007, 07:03 PM
No its nothing more then a computer game...nothing like real combat in any way shape or form.

fuzzychickens
06-15-2007, 07:29 PM
It's nothing like the war. Back in my day, we flew the p51 and it killed everything in the sky. Enemy planes would just burst into flames at the sight of this incredible plane.

MB_Avro_UK
06-15-2007, 07:32 PM
hi all,

Are you saying that this sim has failed to live up to your expectations? And what were your expectations?

(Maybe I should be employed as a market researcher?).

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

TheCrux
06-15-2007, 07:38 PM
Yes, in a way it has.

I see it's not just a matter of going up and shooting down bad guys:

- You have to navigate to the area of combat

- You need to anticipate the enemy location so has to provide yourself with an advantagious position

- You really need to work to get yourself to set up an attack, sometimes quite awhile...while avoiding same.

- "On Paper" performance figures are out the window, as they don't account for an aircraft's performance ( or lack of same ) at various altitudes, attitudes, or acceleration, climb and energy management/or lack of. These points made the biggest impression on me. I see now why 417 MPH Corsairs can be bested by 354 MPH Zeros, why 387 MPH Bf-109's can best 437 MPH P-51's in a dogfight. In general, the "dogfight" is a bull**** way to fight in most high performance A/C

- Navigating home after possibly losing your visual references, and landing etc.

Yeah, it's a great sim indeed.

Stew278
06-15-2007, 07:39 PM
I don't think any game can ever give us a feel for what it was like for those pilots.

I wouldn't say that it has given me an appreciation for what the experience was like for the WWII pilots, but I would say it has given me a greater respect for everyone that fought in the war in general.

It has caused me to reflect on the notion that ,regardless of what country they fought for, most of the soldiers and pilots were just young men that had the misfortune of being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Under different circumstances many of the pilots would likely have gotten along fine with each other regardless of where they were born; like the virtual pilots here. Instead the situation demanded that they try to kill each other in the name of patriotism. Sometimes the world really sucks.

So this game has given me a greater respect for those that fought in WWII, but has also caused me to ponder the absurdity of war.

Blood_Splat
06-15-2007, 07:45 PM
Well it can't simuluate the anziety of waiting to go up and encounter enemy fighters with the constant fear of death. I think leading up to a fight there will be fear. When your in the fight well, you're fighting for your life. I think post combat is when you're like hollyshat I almost got greased there. You might even have trouble sleeping that night.

LStarosta
06-15-2007, 08:05 PM
No, but CFS3 did.

leitmotiv
06-15-2007, 08:42 PM
Yes. Absolutely. All the very good flight sims do. I appreciate how very hard flying was. I appreciate how difficult shooting was, and how hard it was to place bombs or rockets on target. Most of all, I appreciate how easy it was to kill yourself through your own mistakes in flying, or in negligence in watchkeeping. Add to this, how easy it was to get killed in the course of operations. After all this, I have a deep sense of humility when I approach the subject of aerial fighting in any war. I recognize I never remotely could have filled a slot in any aircraft, and that before I make hasty judgments I take on advisement what I have learned fron digging thousands of virtual holes and wrecking millions in taxpayers money!

Airmail109
06-15-2007, 08:53 PM
Only If i had a flamethrower rigged in front of my face, set to go off when my engine and fuel tanks get shot up, and a shotgun at the back of my head for when i get pk'd or fail to bail out

triad773
06-15-2007, 09:10 PM
Yes and no.

Yes in the limits on fuel, ammo, being able to see only what you could out your windscreen, the chances you took: sometimes you'd come back, sometimes someone or thing shot your @$$ down and you never were quite sure.

No in being able to look around cockpit frame spars, leaning out to see a bit more in front, "flying by the seat of your pants" feeling just not there, leaving your stomach in your chest as you dived, or in your seat as you accelerated skyward, or losing your lunch/what ever all over yourself, messing yourself because you were absolutely sure for a moment you were going to die, etc.

All in all it scratched the surface of what it might have been like. Certainly have learnt lots more about the Eastern Front and Russian aircraft- good and bad. All in all fun, but more educational than one might expect from playing something on the computer.

The best entertainment value dollar for dollar I think I've ever spent http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Cheers

Triad

hurricane1948
06-15-2007, 09:27 PM
Yes. Flying pilot careers for VVS Pe-2s and Hurricanes. Dutch Brewsters around the Malacca Straits. I understand why a Russian fighter pilot said he remains standing in the presence of an Il-2 veteran untill that person sits down.

Choctaw111
06-15-2007, 10:08 PM
I do understand what you are asking but think about it this way. Il2 has educated me about a few things but I cannot say that is has made me appreciate being a WW2 pilot any more than Call of Duty has made me appreciate being a grunt. There were certain things about being a grunt that Call of Duty or any game can ever fully convey. Since I have those experiences first hand having been through a combat zone as an infantryman and then playing CoD I don't think that any game can really do that. We sit here in our comfortable homes and play. I have very much respect for those that did this for real or any soldier for that matter that put their life on the line.
At times I was scared like hell and I still have nightmares about it. That was real, and still is. When I play Il2 or CoD it is just a game and sort of takes me to another time and another place in the comforts of my own home. I look around and it feels so good to just be sitting here right now and I feel so lucky. That is a feeling a game will never be able to give you. That is a feeling that only those who have tasted combat can experience.
Maybe there are some who have come to appreciate WW2 pilots more as a result of Il2 but how much more would they appreciate them if they could experience first hand some of the hardships and horrors of war. Just a little food for thought.

Old_Canuck
06-16-2007, 12:27 AM
It gives me a tiny bit of the feeling of air combat but stories like this from "Jan Dzwonek - Within an Ace of Death" give me a sense of what it was really like:

"....I began to fry in the cockpit. My struggle with the seat belt and shoulder harness was so long, that I was almost resigned to my fate. Covering my face and eyes against the fire with my left hand, I opened the belts and with a great heave, bailed out the port side. We had had instructions to only open our parachute near the ground (after incidents of airmen being strafed in their chutes on 1st September, Polish HQ ordered pilots to open their parachute as low as possible). I looked at my hands - - they were white, simply fried, and I thought that 2000 meters lower they might be totally useless. I pulled the handle, and the pain was like holding molten metal. A moment later I felt the jerk - - the parachute was open.

I was hanging in the chute at about 2000 meters altitude when I noticed tracers passing near to me. They missed, but this pirate of the Third Reich not give up and attacked me again. This second time the wave of bullets also spared me. Shells passed to the left and right of my body. The German didn't get a third chance to kill me because my friend Jan Malinowski from 162nd Escadrille (flew on P.7a !) successfully attacked the German. On the first attack he set the right engine of the Bf 110 on fire, and on the second pass killed the pilot. The aircraft fell, crashing in pieces...."

Jan Dzwonek sitting on his P.11c
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/dzwon1.jpg

Link to the whole story click here. (http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/dzwon/dzwon.htm)

Udidtoo
06-16-2007, 12:39 AM
Not in the least. How could it? I have no fear of making a mistake that will end my life or worse, making no mistake at all but just the pure dumb luck of trying to share the same space and time with a flack round.

Neither can it make me feel the regret I'm sure I would at some point for ending the life of people I would have gladly shared a drink with and discussed our mutual love of airplanes.

It has given me a greater appreciation of the men and women who really did fly into combat, for any nation. It's given me a new appreciation of the tech's, engineers and test pilots who brought all the warbirds we love playing at to life. Still at the end of a "flying" session when I shut down it's just a game. A really damn good game but that's all.

P.S. almost forgot the appreciation of how high quality simming equipment is priced.

bazzaah2
06-16-2007, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Udidtoo:
Not in the least. How could it? I have no fear of making a mistake that will end my life or worse, making no mistake at all but just the pure dumb luck of trying to share the same space and time with a flack round.

Neither can it make me feel the regret I'm sure I would at some point for ending the life of people I would have gladly shared a drink with and discussed our mutual love of airplanes.

It has given me a greater appreciation of the men and women who really did fly into combat, for any nation. It's given me a new appreciation of the tech's, engineers and test pilots who brought all the warbirds we love playing at to life. Still at the end of a "flying" session when I shut down it's just a game. A really damn good game but that's all.

P.S. almost forgot the appreciation of how high quality simming equipment is priced.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Hydra454
06-16-2007, 12:47 AM
To be a fighter pilot.No,IL2 hasn't.But as for being a bomber pilot or ground attack,yes it has very much.

IL2 has taught me alot though about the Eastern Front.Before IL2,I'd never even heard of most of the WW2 Russian fighters.

madsarmy
06-16-2007, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by Blood_Splat:
Well it can't simuluate the anziety of waiting to go up and encounter enemy fighters

Got to disagree with you on that one.
VirtualPilots had a few big events a couple of years ago with 90+ players, all organized into bomber/fighter squadrons. The squadron I was in had to wait ages for take off as a group of fighters were incoming & the sky had to be cleared before take off. I know for a fact that the wait made everyone get anxious (teamspeak went quiet). The only time in two hour event that I felt at ease was when we attacked the target & that was only because I was so involved with getting the job done.
When dead is dead in an event like this you really do get a feeling of the tension & anxiety. With hand on heart after the two hours I can honestly say that I was mentally & physically drained.

If you get the chance to fly in such an event I highly recommend doing so. You will love it.

WilhelmVonPrang
06-16-2007, 05:15 AM
I always appreciate your posts, Avro (Vulcan? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but a resounding NO on this one for one reason only:-

Real War has no ESCape key.

Except when my grandchildren insist, I invariably fly 'empty weapons' in IL2 in deference to all the people now suffering from total(itarian!) wars of aggression.

I have been to Fallujah; I have been to Gaza; I have lived in the Lebanon. These places have become hell on earth thanks to a small clique of overly powerful and greedy people. They have stolen and destroyed thousands of years of man's heritage and culture in a matter of a few years. Think about that.

Don't let anyone convince you that war is glorious - it is not and I have the scars to prove it.

As a game of skill, IL2 is beyond compare, IMV

But it is just a game - no blood, no anguish, no destruction of people's dreams. No lies and distortions, no black-ops, no pumping jingoistic propaganda, no crooks reaping the benefits - can you honestly say Halliburton/KBR/Blackwater are a force for good? I cannot...

We all admire the planes, the extraordinary programming achievements, the vicarious excitement but I do feel strongly when playing this game that I consciously have to accept a high degree of cognitive dissonance.

Phil_K
06-16-2007, 05:47 AM
I guess you could turn the question on its head and ask "Does IL2 give you a perverted view of life as WW2 pilot?"

Probably yes.

RegRag1977
06-16-2007, 06:32 AM
Like real WW2 pilots? Of course no...But i didn't ask for that when i bought the game.
I wanted a sim, not war: you know, having fun without having to kill, ot to die violently... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

Funny how some guys here are asking for real war, when they are comfortably in their armchairs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ...I cannot help feeling the total lack of respect for all those who were fighting for their REAL lifes during WW2...Maybe they think they have any right to feel there's not enough war in a game... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Let us have fun, because i don't want mothers crying for their lost sons to be simulated for more realism...

WAR is ****, GAMES ROCK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Hanglands
06-16-2007, 10:36 AM
Hi,

Ive always had a keen interest in WW2 history, but IL2 has really fuelled my interest in the air war. It has helped me learn and understand things about this subject both directly and inderctly.

An example of learning directly from IL2 might be simply realising what a cockpit of a certain aircraft might look like. I learn a shed load of facts, figures, and anecdotes from the Il2 forums too.

Indirectly its contributed to my appreciation of what it might be like to be a WW2 pilot by keeping up my interest in the subject and subsequently doing things like buying certain films or books, or going to signing events and meeting the real pilots, gunners, bomb aimers, ground crew, wireless ops, and navigators, and talking to them. Only last Sunday I had Peter Spoden telling my about how they used to tell the difference between Halifaxes and Lancasters in the dark by the colour of the exhaust flame (Blue for an Hfax, orange for a Lanc), and how they didnt aim at the engines, rather at the spaces between the engines in order to hit the fuel tanks.

I probably wouldnt have done that if IL2 hadnt given me my current level of interest in Luftwaffe tactics.

Regards.

MEGILE
06-16-2007, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
hi all,

Are you saying that this sim has failed to live up to your expectations?


No.. we are saying, we are sitting infront of our monitors safe at home.

Sorry this isn't the answer you are looking for.

slipBall
06-16-2007, 01:01 PM
I do get a strong sence of it, but mostly navigation related, in thick weather...which leads to fuel concerns at times http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Bearcat99
06-16-2007, 05:46 PM
Yes. It helps me to appreciate it more.

I already appreciated it.. between the books, and movies and common sense... but this sim makes me think about how hard it must have been... being young... and haveing all the physical effects of flying to deal with. Being in a cockpit for 5-9 hours... with the noise and the smell and the heat/cold.... The vibrations.... knowing that anything could kill you... heck a fuel line could rupture.. causing you to bail... Everytime I hit refly it crosses my mind that I would be dead had this been real life... Trying to do some of those manuevers.. with real Gs acting on you.... to get an idea go in a roller coaster... and when you get in a high g turn in one direction try to raise your had in the other... that gives me an appreciation for it to. This sim is good but it is after all just a sim.

SeaFireLIV
06-16-2007, 06:12 PM
Yes, of course.

3-4 years ago I knew almost nothing about WWII airwarfare except what the general public (in Britain) knew, ie Spitfires wooped Jerry`s *** in BOB.

With IL2 I`ve learned:

1. The pressure and tension of flying in a high combat environment trying to keep SA with multiple bogeys, keeping your pals alive while simultaneously keeping your I16 aircraft from stalling out and how NOT to quit your engine in a dive. That`s all a feat in itself. That certainly opens a window into some of what it must`ve been like for a pilot in WWII.

2. A greater understanding of the desperation to NOT get shot down. Sure there`s no fear of death, but it gets as close as it can be when you`re caught napping in low Spitfire with a B&Z Ace 109 or FW190 online pilot on you.

3. Crashlanding with a dodgy engine and praying you don`t blow up.

4. Chasing a hapless enemy plane, watching him twist and turn in panic as you tear him up and suddenly realising that you`ve seen this before in REAL guncam footage.

5. Finishing a session sweating like a pig. Actually that only happened the first couple of times I flew online full real, still I read it happened to real fighter pilots at the end of a mission.

This is why I fly IL2 (and BOBwov a bit now).


Of course, you will feel closer to the WWII experience if you fly with realistic difficulty like no icons or very limited icons, cockpit on full engine management, etc, so you have to multitasked and still stay alive. WW view arcade mode won`t do it as far as feeling closer to the real thing.

249th_Maico
06-16-2007, 09:46 PM
Yes and No. The feeling of the stress in combat can be felt when you loose a plane behind you or when you are hit during a head on pass. This sim has broght me desperate moments of failure and triumph. Coming in with an oily screen then running out of fuel as I glide in and make a good landing.... WOW!! What a feeling. Triumph!!! Killing all the tanks on the ground only to get killed by AAA. Failure!!!
This in no way compares to real combat. My hats off to the guys who endured the 50 plus degrees of North Africa and the -20 of Murmansk. I never felt the sting of superheated oil on my face or the fear of an impending explosion. Real pilots had no Pause button.
I got an appreciation of these men through the immersion that IL2 provides. Its a really good sim.

Freelancer-1
06-16-2007, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Udidtoo:
Not in the least. How could it? I have no fear of making a mistake that will end my life or worse, making no mistake at all but just the pure dumb luck of trying to share the same space and time with a flack round.

Neither can it make me feel the regret I'm sure I would at some point for ending the life of people I would have gladly shared a drink with and discussed our mutual love of airplanes.

It has given me a greater appreciation of the men and women who really did fly into combat, for any nation. It's given me a new appreciation of the tech's, engineers and test pilots who brought all the warbirds we love playing at to life. Still at the end of a "flying" session when I shut down it's just a game. A really damn good game but that's all.

P.S. almost forgot the appreciation of how high quality simming equipment is priced.

Absolutely!

All of the above and other reasons.

He didn't even touch on the ridiculousness of trying to compare computer simulated flight with the sensations of the real thing.

Black out, vertigo, cold, G-forces, heat, etc.

Fireball_
06-16-2007, 10:47 PM
It has to the extent that it has really got me interested in WWII flyers, particular Navy flyers. Since I've started playing IL-2 I've read several books about WWII pilots. Right now I'm about half way throught the second 'First Team' book by Lundstrom.

I think all the reading has given me some insight into what it was like to be a WWII pilot. And playing IL-2 is what got me interested. So, yes at least indirectly you could say IL-2 has helped me appreciate what it was like to be a WWII pilot.

SOLO_Bones
06-17-2007, 05:27 AM
No, not really. But it does make me itch for more. At least I get to see what the real pilots looked at. ie the cockpit.
Perhaps if I sat in front of the monitor for 6 to 8 hours, inside a refrigerator, breathing in gas fumes it might seem more like a realistic bombing mission.
But then I just bought the game to pretend, not to simulate.

Badsight-
06-17-2007, 06:17 AM
Has IL2 made you appreaciate what it was like to be a WW2 Pilot..?? not really

FB gives you a small insight to ACM tactics

but PC games are flash pacman

Matz0r
06-17-2007, 06:30 AM
I found an audio clip online taken from a cockpit of an American F-105 who is under attack from a Mig during the Vietnam war. I was awe struck how similar the radio chatter was to our dogfight conversations on the F16/F19 teamspeak server. Different language but same lingo and methods. At least something we got right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rnzoli
06-18-2007, 03:21 AM
Yes, it did, and I am thankful for this.

I run this application on the higher end of the difficulty settings and I am the type of a guy who gets easily immersed into a simulation (has to do with good imagination, I guess). Atonline campaign events like Matz described, the atmosphere gets very close to what is documented by veterans living through the whole thing. And although I have no fear of dying of course, I do fear making mistakes, e.g., not being able to bring my aircraft back home, not being able to complete the mission objectives, or not being able to save my friends. That's not enough? Then try being a flight leader with real responsibility for coordinating 3 other, lesser trained pilots, and keeping them safe.


Under those circumstances, it is possible to peek into the life of WW2 pilots momentarily - the chaos of combat, the weather, the awsome challenges like carrier landings.

I am thankful for these moment, because I know for sure, that I would have been killed in RL. Therefore I harbor no false desires towards living in that age, neither being a real WW2 pilot.

On the other hand, this software fails miserable to make us appreciate what it was like being the ground crew for the WW2 aircraft. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SOLO_Bones
06-18-2007, 04:34 AM
And as far as fighter pilots... Not a chance. If there was real immersion, you'd go on-line and rarely have dogfights. Take a couple shots and get away quickly. But since the biggest factor in immersion cannot be there, ie fear, there can be no real immersion. But as I said, the fighting hero part is pretend. Flying the aircraft is a simulation.

rnzoli
06-18-2007, 04:57 AM
But since the biggest factor in immersion cannot be there, ie fear
If you believe that fighter pilots were all taking off, flying, fighting and landing with constant fear in their mind...then you are completely wrong. They were not. Some were in fact outright feeling invincible (and paid the price later on).

It's not the missing fear of death, which ruins the immersion. It's more likely the type of scenarios (missions) that we fly. There are online missions,where you are in fact very happy to take a couple of shots and get away quickly. I did personally fly exciting missions, where I was glad not to meet any opposition! The shoting on TeamSpeak from my comrades, and the frequent "xxx was killed" messages were just exiting enough for the whole flight time... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Philipscdrw
06-18-2007, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by WilhelmVonPrang:
I always appreciate your posts, Avro (Vulcan? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but a resounding NO on this one for one reason only:-

Real War has no ESCape key.

Except when my grandchildren insist, I invariably fly 'empty weapons' in IL2 in deference to all the people now suffering from total(itarian!) wars of aggression.

I have been to Fallujah; I have been to Gaza; I have lived in the Lebanon. These places have become hell on earth thanks to a small clique of overly powerful and greedy people. They have stolen and destroyed thousands of years of man's heritage and culture in a matter of a few years. Think about that.

Don't let anyone convince you that war is glorious - it is not and I have the scars to prove it.

As a game of skill, IL2 is beyond compare, IMV

But it is just a game - no blood, no anguish, no destruction of people's dreams. No lies and distortions, no black-ops, no pumping jingoistic propaganda, no crooks reaping the benefits - can you honestly say Halliburton/KBR/Blackwater are a force for good? I cannot...

We all admire the planes, the extraordinary programming achievements, the vicarious excitement but I do feel strongly when playing this game that I consciously have to accept a high degree of cognitive dissonance.

I see it as having all the 'good' bits of war - the high-powered aircraft, the art of combat, the satisfaction of winning a mission through cooperation with your allies - without any of the 'bad' - the death, disruption, propaganda, dehumanisation etc. How this relates to war veterans I don't know.

Zrix123
06-18-2007, 01:09 PM
You can't possibly realize how the real WW2 pilots felt just by playing a game, but those moments where you get killed by the first flak shell, or when an enemy fighter sneaks up on you and blows the wing off really reminds me of how close the pilots were to death every single flight.