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ILikePortillos
08-19-2009, 12:53 PM
Hello. I've searched the forum for any reference to a pilot handbook or some complete document of suggested takeoff and landing speed requirements for all of the planes in the game (IL-2 1946), but have found none. It doesn't appear that there is such a resource out there. Can anyone deny this?

I know the game has a very helpful aircraft guide, but it is selective at providing takeoff and landing speeds specifically for many of the aircraft. It seems like an important element for anyone who wants to takeoff and land without stalling. It may be a pipe dream, but I was hoping someone had done the research.

Sillius_Sodus
08-19-2009, 01:25 PM
As a rule of thumb, most propeller driven single engined fighters will lift off in the 150-180km/h range and land at around the same speed, say, the 130-150km/h range. An approach speed in the 200km/h range will do in most cases. Heavily loaded singe engined fighters and Twin engined fighters will need around 20km/h more speed in each case.

Biplanes do everything around 30km/h slower. I don't fly bombers too often but add say, 30-50km/h to the single engine speeds.

These are rough estimates only but work in most cases.

AndyJWest
08-19-2009, 01:29 PM
I'd take some of the speeds in the aircraft guide with a pinch of salt myself. Though I tend to have a pretty good idea of what is reasonable for most of the planes I fly regularly, in practice I rely more on 'feel' than on hard numbers, and this comes with experience. It's worth remembering too that best speeds will vary with weight - fuel and ordinance loads. Fortunately, the IL-2 runways are fairly long, so you can wait until the plane is almost flying itself off the runway. Again, get to know the aircraft, and accelerate, raising flaps, before going for steep climbs, at least until you know the limits of the plane.

Il2 Compare ( here (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=329) -when Mission4today is back on line -try Friday) gives Rate-of-Climb and Turn Time by Speed figures for all the IL-2 aircraft, and a look at the graphs should give an indication of reasonable minimum safe speeds in a flaps-up condition - I generally find that if you trim for close-to-stall in level flight (or a tad faster if the plane is prone to drop a wing), then flaps down with no trim change will give a reasonable approach speed. Remember, that at these speeds you should use the throttle to control the angle of approach, and elevator (or better, elevator trim) to control the speed.

To some extent, this comes down to personal preference. I've got better at 3-point landings with practice, whereas a beginner is often better off coming in a little faster for a mainwheels-only landing - the problem here is usually the tendency to bounce if one misjudges the flair.

M_Gunz
08-19-2009, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by ILikePortillos:
Hello. I've searched the forum for any reference to a pilot handbook or some complete document of suggested takeoff and landing speed requirements for all of the planes in the game (IL-2 1946), but have found none. It doesn't appear that there is such a resource out there. Can anyone deny this?

I know the game has a very helpful aircraft guide, but it is selective at providing takeoff and landing speeds specifically for many of the aircraft. It seems like an important element for anyone who wants to takeoff and land without stalling. It may be a pipe dream, but I was hoping someone had done the research.

Plane load will make a difference as will piloting. Find the IAS stall speed you get and keep to about 30% higher on
landing approach. I don't take off asap if I've got runway, you'll get faster quicker if you take off with an extra 20+kph.
You won't need as much flaps either waiting until 200kph to lift off.

K_Freddie
08-19-2009, 03:04 PM
It's funny.. in all the years of IL2, I've never looked at my 'speedo' while taking off, Landing Yes, but never while taking off.
I seem to go more on my 'visuals' and gentle rotations to get an idea when I'm close to 'lift off'.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

na85
08-19-2009, 03:05 PM
I never worry about takeoff and landing speeds for the different aircraft.

I've never run out of runway taking off, and I usually wait until I've reached 200kph+ before lifting off, regardless of what I'm flying.

On landing approach I try to touch down at about 180 kph, and have never had a problem with running out of braking space unless I touch down too far past the beginning of the runway.

ILikePortillos
08-19-2009, 03:12 PM
Wow, thanks all! I was almost expecting some smartass comment telling me to look harder or something. This is still one of the more friendly and helpful forums out there.

In summary, there really is no such document, such as a Pilot's Operating Handbook for each aircraft listing takeoff and landing speed requirements. I didn't think there was, as I had performed a fair amount of research.

Your comments have all been extremely helpful. I'll be sure to print them out and use them as a guideline for any aircraft I fly for which there are no speed instructions.

I was planning on flying a couple of missions in the Fiat CR. 42, 1938, which is what got me started.

I suppose I could test each aircraft myself by stalling them out at near sea level, then pubishing the results. Then again, it sounds like quite an undertaking.

I'll be sure to keep you posted on my exploits. I post to YouTube occasionally under the same handle "ILikePortillos." My friend Matt and I have begun a project to try and fly all the missions generated by the game (after we fly through the Africa Campaign add-on). If anyone is ever interested, we usually fly once or twice a week from 8:30 to 10:30 Central Standard Time (CST). We'd love the company. See you out there!

Waldo.Pepper
08-19-2009, 03:25 PM
The game is the game and reality is reality. In reality each plane has its own pilot's operating instruction. Some are available on the internet as PDF's at various locations. Mostly they are free. If there is any specific aircraft you or anyone is interested in I think I have most of them. So PM if you want them.

K_Freddie
08-19-2009, 03:29 PM
This is true...

Zeus-cat
08-19-2009, 04:30 PM
Like most people here I fly by feel. After you play for a while you just know when the plane is close to stall speed on your landing approach and you just give it more juice. For takeoffs I just run the throttle all the way up and then let it roll until it starts to lift.

The only time I ever ran out of runway on a takeoff is in a fully laden swallow, I mean P-47, on one of the temporary runways on the Normandy map. Dubbo and I were flying the 47's and we had 1X1000, 2X500 pound bombs and six rockets. Neither of us made it into the air before we ran out of runway. As I recall we weren't even close.

mortoma
08-19-2009, 04:45 PM
Heavily loaded singe engined fighters and Twin engined fighters will need around 20km/h more speed in each case. Not necessarily, the P-38 can take off and land at slower speeds than most singles. Maybe you never tried the P-38 before?

K_Freddie
08-19-2009, 05:02 PM
Psalms 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Celebrate diversity!?! OK, how about Winchester, Remington, Colt, Ruger, Armalite, Mossberg and Marlin? My kind of diversity!

mortoma: You're joking about this nonsense http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Kettenhunde
08-19-2009, 06:38 PM
the P-38 can take off and land at slower speeds than most singles.

Indicated Airspeeds, yes....

True Airspeeds, no....

All the best,

Crumpp

K_Freddie
08-19-2009, 06:43 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Bearcat99
08-19-2009, 08:40 PM
MY advice? Take a tip from Joint Ops.. Pick the planes you prefer to fly the most... and find out what the to/lndg/stall speed is... I find that that works best for me.

Sillius_Sodus
08-20-2009, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Heavily loaded singe engined fighters and Twin engined fighters will need around 20km/h more speed in each case. Not necessarily, the P-38 can take off and land at slower speeds than most singles. Maybe you never tried the P-38 before? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hi Mortoma,

I've flown the -38 quit a bit although I'm certainly no expert, I was just giving the op a LAR approach to t/o and landing speeds. They aren't the slowest speeds possible but will do in most cases based on all the variables in the game.

M_Gunz
08-20-2009, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> the P-38 can take off and land at slower speeds than most singles.

Indicated Airspeeds, yes....

True Airspeeds, no....

All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Instrument error?

JtD
08-20-2009, 09:44 AM
There is a rar file around that contains some numbers of the plane performance in game, it also contains vmin speeds. I don't know the exact meaning of this figure but it appears to be a good guideline for a landing speed. It is in the range of 125-150km/h for most planes flaps down and 150-200 km/h flaps up.

Kettenhunde
08-20-2009, 04:43 PM
Instrument error?


Correct.

When you adjust the speeds, the P38 touches down at ~70mph TAS. About the same, maybe a touch faster than the FW-190A8.

All the best,

Crumpp

M_Gunz
08-20-2009, 06:02 PM
That's only 112 kph. A bit slow?
From the P-38 association site The P-38 power stall occurs at about 70 MPH with about a 50-foot loss of altitude.

And just a guess but wouldn't the nose be just a tad high for tricycle gear landing at such full-AOA??

Documented landing speeds I found on the spitfireperformance site. Of course these depend on configuration...


October 14, 1944

Air Corps Type Designation P-47M

(j) Landing Speed with Flaps retracted 118 MPH
(k) Landing Speed with Flaps extended 99 MPH



AEROPLANE Spitfire I No. N.3171

Service Ceiling 34,700 ft. Landing speed - M.P.H.
Take off run 225 yds. Time - secs. Distance from rest to clear 50 ft. screen 370 yards
Stalling speed flaps up 78 M.P.H. Gliding in A.S.I. 87 M.P.H.
"- Down 68 M.P.H.
Best landing A.S.I. 66 M.P.H.

AndyJWest
08-20-2009, 06:08 PM
Before this becomes yet another endless P-38 debate, can I remind people what the OP wanted:


suggested takeoff and landing speed requirements for all of the planes in the game (IL-2 1946)

The low-speed performance of real P-38s may be an interesting topic to some, but it is not what was asked for. ILikePortillos was seeking guidance as he learns to fly, not an in-depth historical analysis.

Kettenhunde
08-20-2009, 06:16 PM
The P-38 power stall occurs at about 70 MPH

You don't land or approach power on M_Gunz. Most aircraft will have a lower power on stall speed especially in landing configuration.

Vref P-38 series = 130mph
Vref FW-190A8 = 102mph

All the best,

Crumpp

AndyJWest
08-20-2009, 06:24 PM
I've finally come to realise that old topics don't die, they just become part of the same grey sludge of repetitious random contradiction and rehashing old ground. Entropy wins again.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kettenhunde
08-20-2009, 08:05 PM
Do you know what Vref is AndyWest??

It is the landing approach speed.

You do understand that is what the original poster wanted?

All the best,

Crumpp

M_Gunz
08-20-2009, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The P-38 power stall occurs at about 70 MPH

You don't land or approach power on M_Gunz. Most aircraft will have a lower power on stall speed especially in landing configuration.

Vref P-38 series = 130mph
Vref FW-190A8 = 102mph

All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

P-38 stall speed (Vref, no?) is more commonly listed as 105 mph. Flaps and gear down is 70 mph?? P-51 stall is lower but
I dunno about the dirty stall.

EDIT - I see elsewhere, Vref is _landing_ speed so stall = Vref, NO! Still isn't approach dirty stall + 30%?

During WW2 I put quite a few hours in those birds (P-38's) and loved them (http://www.winthrop.dk/stanwood.html)


I was in the 414th Fighter Group, 456th Fighter Squadron, 13th Air Force. I flew in the South Pacific theater and flew P-47's & P-51's as well as the 38, but for fun of flying and stability it couldn't be beat and is still my favorite of all.


The P-38 with tricycle gear was really a simple plane to land. Coming in for a landing over the fence at 110 and flaring out at 90 the main gear would touch down and the nose wheel would feel as though it just dropped into a slot on the runway and would roll out all by itself. Upon touch down and roll out you could actually start filling out the form-one with no fear of losing control.

So he scrubs off another 15-20 mph from flare to touchdown. AVSim lists P-38 dirty stall at 69 mph.


Was it as maneuverable as it looks - also compared to the P-47 and P-51?

I would probably have to say no. With the combat flaps it did turn pretty tight, but the 38 was better as a hell-bent-for-leather-downhill-attack and then keep-on-going plane. Also I have a preference for a stick rather than a wheel and am sure I could left hand break with a 51 tighter than a 38. There is no doubt that the 51 was by far the better combat plane of the day. The Jug was for it's size surprisingly very maneuverable and built to withstand a lot of punishment.

M_Gunz
08-20-2009, 08:18 PM
John Deakin puts a whole different view on turn than the who can go the slowest --


Turning ability is very simply the ability to "pull harder," and put more g-load on the wings before the accelerated stall occurs. If you have a Mustang with a stall speed of 80, and the Zero with a stall speed of 55, and the dogfight is at 140 knots, the Mustang can pull only 3g before stalling, and the Zero could pull 6.4g before the stall.

it's who can turn the hardest -at- the speed of the combat.

Of course my view is to be faster than the other guy (ability to zoom) or get out of Dodge but that's another story.

Kettenhunde
08-20-2009, 09:06 PM
P-38 stall speed (Vref, no?) is more commonly listed as 105 mph.

Well the 130mph comes right out of the P-38 series POH.

Vref is not stall speed, it is approach speed and typically 1.3 Vso power off.

Now, your power on stall speed will be lower if we wish to have a safe go-around should our pilot miss the landing.

The POH lists 69mph at the lowest weight and 78mph for the highest. Sounds like AVsim assumes all P-38's are empty on landing.

Tricycle gear is naturally stable and much easier to land than any conventional gear aircraft.

All the best,

Crumpp

Kettenhunde
08-20-2009, 09:10 PM
So he scrubs off another 15-20 mph from flare to touchdown.

Typical of any airplane, btw,

M_Gunz
08-20-2009, 09:25 PM
If I take 69 mph as Vso, x 1.3 = 90 mph. That pilot remembers 110 mph "over the fence" which is what I'd
-like- to call final approach, before the flare but then he surely had some reserve fuel, maybe ammo too.

I can see 70 mph at landing since the plane would be dropping slowly.

JtD
08-20-2009, 10:31 PM
Quote from P-38 handbook:

"With the landing gear DOWN and flaps at MANEUVER, start the approach at 120 mph indicated air speed. When the approach is assured, put the flaps all the way down, come over the fence at 110 mph, flare off to about 80 mph and wait for contact."

Kettenhunde
08-20-2009, 11:27 PM
That pilot remembers 110 mph "over the fence"

"Over the fence" is not Vref, although many people confuse it as such. "Over the fence" is an expression generally meaning the last 35-40 feet just before ground effect as you make the runway and prepare for the flare.

Vref is the approach speed you should be at after the turn to final.

Verbatim from the Pilot Training Manual is a general statement for 130 mph for the entire P38 series. The Pilot's Flight Instructions for the P-38H Series, P-38J-5, and F-5B1 does say 120mph for Vref.

It does not alter the fact the P38 series landing speeds are not exceptionally low. In fact they lean towards the upper end of the scale for a WWII fighter.

IMHO, the tricycle landing gear more than compensates.

All the best,

Crumpp

Waldo.Pepper
08-21-2009, 12:18 AM
Here is the relevant page.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/PagesfromPilotsTrainingManualP-38.jpg

na85
08-21-2009, 01:00 AM
Don't sit there fat, dumb, and happy while the aircraft does a snap roll.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

general_kalle
08-21-2009, 03:26 AM
for take off just drive till it wants to lift off
landing is for 90% of the aircrafts 180kmh.
as a rule of thumb...earlier slower planes tend to have lower landing speeds most notably Hurricane, Zero, Val and biplanes.

AndyJWest
08-21-2009, 04:10 AM
Yikes! back on topic. This must be too good to last...

Broadly speaking, in real life, the factors that seem to have the most effect on optimum approach speed appear from what I've read to be (a) wing loading, (b) flap configuration, and (c) general low-speed controllability. I think that IL-2 models all three factors reasonably, or at least believably. Wing loading (total weight/wing area) will vary with fuel & ordinance loads (it is usually advisable to get rid of unused bombs & rockets before landing). If your flaps are not working, approach speed must necessarily be faster. Controllability is of course a bit subjective, but i'd say that for single-engine fighters, the things that seem to be most critical are how much effect small throttle movements produce in the roll and yaw axes, and the related question of how prone an aircraft is to drop a wing when stalled.

If this is correct, then I'd suggest that over-reliance on stated Vref/approach speeds, whether derived from 'real life' or IL-2, is probably best avoided. With the damage model that IL-2 implements it is not rare (or not rare for me at least) to be returning early from a mission with a heavy fuel load and a wing full of holes. To attempt to approach at the same speed as one would after completing a mission undamaged is likely to result in a busted undercarriage at best, and most likely a smoking crater. Ultimately, as most of the more experienced IL-2 pilots seem to suggest, it may he helpful to have a rough idea of what the speeds should be, but 'what feels right' is usually best.

'Feeling right' can only come with practice. Flying offline campaigns, I've usually tried to avoid using the 'autopilot' at all, and never for landing (it sometimes seems to make aircraft do things that are impossible to reproduce oneself). With twins, I often turn off one engine, just to practice single-engined landings for when I really need them. If I lose all power and have any chance of making a dead-stick landing I will: preferably on a runway, but wheels-up on any flat ground I can find otherwise. All this will give you more confidence for when it matters, and remember that unlike in real life, you can learn from your mistakes - even the bad ones.

ILikePortillos
08-21-2009, 01:50 PM
Thanks guys. I appreciate all of the interest in the topic. I understand that there are a multitude of factors that are going to affect the proper approach speeds. Physics is a complex subject, and everything changes when you change even one variable. I thought that a published approach, final and landing speed would be helpful, primarily as a guideline. You could add or reduce speed based on the conditions, but having that guideline is always helpful. I didn't want to land my biplane at 180 KPH if I could land it at 150 KPH.

Again, thanks for all the helpful info. Glad I could pique your interest.

Kettenhunde
08-21-2009, 04:21 PM
I'd suggest that over-reliance on stated Vref/approach speeds, whether derived from 'real life' or IL-2, is probably best avoided.

If that is the case, then your game does not model or simulate airplanes at all.

As I understand it, your game does a pretty good job of simulating airplanes. If that is case, you will make the best landing by establishing the specific Vref required for the aircraft you are playing.

All the best,

Crumpp

AndyJWest
08-21-2009, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I'd suggest that over-reliance on stated Vref/approach speeds, whether derived from 'real life' or IL-2, is probably best avoided.

If that is the case, then your game does not model or simulate airplanes at all.

As I understand it, your game does a pretty good job of simulating airplanes. If that is case, you will make the best landing by establishing the specific Vref required for the aircraft you are playing.

All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did say 'over-reliance', there is nothing wrong with having a rough figure in mind. But in any case, how does one 'establish' the Vref for an aeroplane? Unless you are claiming that IL-2 is 100% accurate in every aspect of its modelling of real world aircraft, one can only ever do this by trial and error and/or experience. In any case, I am sure their are aircraft modelled in IL-2 for which this data is unavailable (unless of course you know of a complete source....). And how are real-world Vref's arrived at anyway - possibly nowadays it might be feasible to do this with software, but I'd be surprised if during WWII figures were arrived at by any other means than 'feel' from experienced pilots.

I notice you say 'your game': do you not actually fly in IL-2 yourself?

Kettenhunde
08-21-2009, 07:13 PM
But in any case, how does one 'establish' the Vref for an aeroplane?

For the pilot:

1. Drop the gears and landing flaps - Get the airplane in landing configuration.

2. Reduce power to idle, stick back and maintain altitude until the airplane stalls, note the speed.

3. Multiply that stall speed by 1.3 and that equals the Vref for the aircraft.

You should be able to do that for any airplane in your game.

For the designer, it is more involved but basically he wants to ensure all the control surfaces are effective at the planned CG ranges of the aircraft. The most important being at forward CG our elevator has enough authority at Vref to flair the aircraft.


I'd be surprised if during WWII figures were arrived at by any other means than 'feel' from experienced pilots.


Every WWII has a POH and it list's a Vref speed under the landing instructions.

Since airplanes have been built, landing speeds has been a vital piece of information for the safe operation of the craft.

All the best,

Crumpp