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Cosmopanda
11-21-2010, 07:48 AM
My first post ever lol. But yeah, I'm in two minds about this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Part of me thinks that by improving stun, it might lead to making the game so that nobody ever gives chase or sprints away from danger, revealing themselves in the process, so, any changes to Stun have to be carefully considered.

But gameplay-wise, and even thematically, I think a stronger/more prioritised Stun could improve the game. At the least, it'd serve to make the hunters be a bit more sneaky, which to me is what this game is all about.

Currently, the game rewards players who take their time with their executions by giving them more points. But VERY rarely do I see anyone truly take advantage of this. Most of the times I get killed are by people who run at me and finish the job immediately for the quick payout. This feels less like the work of a trained assassin and more like the work of some random nutjob with a knife... Sadly though, its an effective tactic, because execution has such priority that they can cause my character to stand still and accept his or her fate from a good few feet away, before I even have a chance to stun or sprint.

If these Abstergo Agents are being trained to kill hapless OAP's who can't fight back, well that's fine I guess. But I thought the whole point of being an Assassin was to deliver death to the otherwise untouchable. If I see you running at me from down the street, I should be able to beat you down, serves you right for being obvious, y'know? The ball should be in my court because you failed at being an assassin.

For the time being, though, being hunted feels like far more of a priority than hunting my own target, because however stealthy I am in tracking down my target, I know there's probably a ******* hunter barrelling towards me with all the stealth of a Ninja Turtle... And they'll win.

What do you think? Is there a way to implement a better stun for the hunted without making the whole chase/escape part redundant?

obliviondoll
11-21-2010, 08:36 AM
No.

Stun is fine.

Don't expect to use stun as a way to escape.

Escape first, THEN stun.

If you use it that way, it's perfectly fine as it is.

The Demonborn
11-21-2010, 08:43 AM
Something that annoys me is that people seem to reverse my stuns, assassinating me halfway through it, yet I can't do the same. Also, yes, way too many people misunderstand the concept of stealth.

obliviondoll
11-21-2010, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by FallenUnderLord:
Something that annoys me is that people seem to reverse my stuns, assassinating me halfway through it, yet I can't do the same. Also, yes, way too many people misunderstand the concept of stealth.
If you hit the assassinate button after your target hits stun, but before they stun you, it counters.

The window for it is pretty narrow, so it's more down to luck than skill.

The Demonborn
11-21-2010, 08:49 AM
Well, anyway, the point still stands that a majority of people playing are more used to playing FPS's and running about, killing whatever moves, and therefore haveno idea how to be stealth. And when my target is a sprinter, I just kill a civilian to get a new contract. Which doesn't help when they're all sprinters.

obliviondoll
11-21-2010, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by FallenUnderLord:
Well, anyway, the point still stands that a majority of people playing are more used to playing FPS's and running about, killing whatever moves, and therefore haveno idea how to be stealth. And when my target is a sprinter, I just kill a civilian to get a new contract. Which doesn't help when they're all sprinters.
Runners teach you to play "Follow Best".

You follow best from in front.

Eventually, players HAVE to come to the ground. Usually they do so intermittently on purpose, by accident, or because they're after someone who's on the ground.

Watch where a target runs, there's usually a pattern - take advantage and be where they're heading before they get there.

Preferably in a hide/blend spot so you get the "hidden" bonus.

MuddledMuppet2
11-21-2010, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
No.

Stun is fine.

Don't expect to use stun as a way to escape.

Escape first, THEN stun.

If you use it that way, it's perfectly fine as it is.

This.

The OP raises a fair point, but unless i'm misinterpreting, you're finding it difficult to make rewarding (satisfying) kills, surely the increased stun would just make that harder? So then you;re still gonna have sprinters/roofers, but anyone who is playing 'properly' would hav ean increased chance to prevent you playing the hunter part properly, which in turn would lead to everyone using the hidden gun to enable range kills. It's pretty obvious that would lead to it's own problems.

Here's my take, ANY game has its' share of (for want of a better word) griefers, generally they move on to summat else quickly, sometimes they'll stick around to see how far they can 'break' the game.

Don;t play with 'em http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Be part of a gaming community, and you'll find the majority of people who you play with a) play 'properly', and b) nhave prety good counter-measures to the idiots.

There are plenty out there so i won't do a shameless plug for mine, tho you;re welcome to check it out from the sig (Shameless Plug Status: Achieved)

Play Manhunt. Spread out as a team, lock on to every sprinter/roofer, your team-mates will see it and can lie in wait for them. Soooo satisfying, and of course they will do the same for you. (Use mic's, a golden rule)

As games go, I'm not a great player by any means, but I've beaten LOTS of players who've had 9-10 kills while I've had 2-3. Several times.

As to the use of stuns, personally I just use it as an insult, if I'm in any doubt about it's success I'll try and escape first every time. The assassin is SUPPOSED to have the edge imo, a stun should really only be available if the assassin makes a mistake, not as a matter of course.

Just my opinion, but I'm generally right about everything http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

piggypig890
11-21-2010, 09:37 AM
Stun is perfect the way it is now. It was broken during the beta but they've got at the right level of reliability.

Cosmopanda
11-21-2010, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by MuddledMuppet2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
No.

Stun is fine.

Don't expect to use stun as a way to escape.

Escape first, THEN stun.

If you use it that way, it's perfectly fine as it is.

This.

The OP raises a fair point, but unless i'm misinterpreting, you're finding it difficult to make rewarding (satisfying) kills, surely the increased stun would just make that harder? So then you;re still gonna have sprinters/roofers, but anyone who is playing 'properly' would hav ean increased chance to prevent you playing the hunter part properly, which in turn would lead to everyone using the hidden gun to enable range kills. It's pretty obvious that would lead to it's own problems.

Here's my take, ANY game has its' share of (for want of a better word) griefers, generally they move on to summat else quickly, sometimes they'll stick around to see how far they can 'break' the game.

Don;t play with 'em http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Be part of a gaming community, and you'll find the majority of people who you play with a) play 'properly', and b) nhave prety good counter-measures to the idiots.

There are plenty out there so i won't do a shameless plug for mine, tho you;re welcome to check it out from the sig (Shameless Plug Status: Achieved)

Play Manhunt. Spread out as a team, lock on to every sprinter/roofer, your team-mates will see it and can lie in wait for them. Soooo satisfying, and of course they will do the same for you. (Use mic's, a golden rule)

As games go, I'm not a great player by any means, but I've beaten LOTS of players who've had 9-10 kills while I've had 2-3. Several times.

As to the use of stuns, personally I just use it as an insult, if I'm in any doubt about it's success I'll try and escape first every time. The assassin is SUPPOSED to have the edge imo, a stun should really only be available if the assassin makes a mistake, not as a matter of course.

Just my opinion, but I'm generally right about everything http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers for the reply, but yeah, I enjoy playing Wanted for now, because I only have like, one other friend with this game and Alliance seems even more stealthless than Wanted!

I do get my fair share of kills, not all of which are that spectacular, but I find that most times I'm killed it isn't because I've been stalked successfully or anything, it's because someone has more or less just sprinted at where the radar suggests. If I don't have an ability to disguise myself or a smoke bomb for any reason, my options are:

A). Run away, which means I end up far away from my target and thus unable to score, or;

B). Attempt a stun, which works (imo) less often than it should, especially when I can see my attacker and stealth has gone out the window, which generally results in me dying and being unable to score.

My problem isn't with Stun exactly, it works fine when like, I've morphed a crowd and the attacker hesitates. My problem is with the sprinting tactic being so effective. Even though it doesn't get them many points, it stops me from scoring any, having to respawn and track down a new target.

I think a prioritised Stun could be a good way to make people think "Hey, running at your target never really works out, maybe I'll take the subtle approach". But at the same time, I agree that it could imbalance other aspects of the game. Running away would be pointless if you could punch someone out every single time... Also I suspect people wouldnt risk standing around waiting for a high score if there's a chance the other player could be pressing stun toward anyone suspicious.

Other things could remedy this too, maybe crop quick kills down to only 50 points? Perhaps give Stun a reset timer, so it can only be used once every 15 seconds like an ability?

But yeah, being able to lay the smack down on a stealthless beserker "assassin" would be fun and satisfying. As it stands, I feel a bit punished for playing the game in what I feel is the spirit of the game; Staying low, mimicing the AI to sneak around undetected.

MuddledMuppet2
11-21-2010, 10:04 AM
Hmmm, tbh I can't see how someone can just charge and sprint at a target with anywhere near enough a degree of certainty to be successful a majority of the time, they're just too many ways that could fail. Usually there's at least one npc around looking similar, so that's immediate 50% chance of fail, that percentage will increase the more npc's there are around looking the same. Then there's a chance the target will be disguised, or morphed an npc while the target hides in some hay or similar. I think what's happening is either you've had an extremely bad run of luck, otr your perception of what has happened hasn't actually been the reality. To explain;. you get charged at and killed, but what you didn;t know (and couldn't) is how long he'd watched you before he did that. Ie his bottle may have went at the last second, despite follwoing you for a full minute to make sure youwere his target.

Could I suggest, you actuallt try doing what you think is happening for a few games, and see if it is indeed a successful tactic. Go and run around like a loony, sprinting at every charcter model who looks like your target and see if it works? My feeling is it won't, but I'll happily accept if you tell me otherwise!

obliviondoll
11-21-2010, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by MuddledMuppet2:
Hmmm, tbh I can't see how someone can just charge and sprint at a target with anywhere near enough a degree of certainty to be successful a majority of the time, they're just too many ways that could fail. Usually there's at least one npc around looking similar, so that's immediate 50% chance of fail, that percentage will increase the more npc's there are around looking the same. Then there's a chance the target will be disguised, or morphed an npc while the target hides in some hay or similar. I think what's happening is either you've had an extremely bad run of luck, otr your perception of what has happened hasn't actually been the reality. To explain;. you get charged at and killed, but what you didn;t know (and couldn't) is how long he'd watched you before he did that. Ie his bottle may have went at the last second, despite follwoing you for a full minute to make sure youwere his target.

Could I suggest, you actuallt try doing what you think is happening for a few games, and see if it is indeed a successful tactic. Go and run around like a loony, sprinting at every charcter model who looks like your target and see if it works? My feeling is it won't, but I'll happily accept if you tell me otherwise!
If you do it with some measure of forethought, you can get 50% - 70% success rate against players who don't focus on picking NPCs who look like themselves. The better the player does stealth, the less likely you are to succeed.

Jimmy2495
11-21-2010, 10:25 AM
I don't think so. If we had better stun, we couldn't be able to kill face-to-face. We should always attack from behind, and that wouldn't be fair.

At least I think so.

The best thing you can do when you're being chased is run, then hide in a group with the same character you are, and then try to stun when the player is trying to guess who you are.

rb2610
11-21-2010, 10:28 AM
I think I have a solution to the problem, how about keep stun as it is if your pursuer is incognito, then if they go into silent up stun's priority a little (not that much though).
Then if the pursuer drops into discreet, up stun's priority a little more.

It'd probably be tougher to implement post release as a patch as it'd require new animations, maybe in a free DLC or something. But how about have a variation on stun, like 'dodge' or something, which only works if your pursuer is attacking in high profile, so they rush towards you, if you hit 'b' (or whatever it is on PS3) at the right time, you duck under or jump out the way of their move and it stuns them.

This way it'd make it harder for players to just go for lame rush tactics every time.
These elite assassin's should be skilful enough to avoid someone blundering headlong into them, so implement it.
(EDIT) And wouldn't penalise stealthy players even if they approach from the front, as long as they keep to low profile.

(As Charge is a power that could be exempt from dodging)

MuddledMuppet2
11-21-2010, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MuddledMuppet2:
Could I suggest, you actuallt try doing what you think is happening for a few games, and see if it is indeed a successful tactic. Go and run around like a loony, sprinting at every charcter model who looks like your target and see if it works? My feeling is it won't, but I'll happily accept if you tell me otherwise!
If you do it with some measure of forethought, If you do it with some measure of forethought, you can get 50% - 70% success rate against players who don't focus on picking NPCs who look like themselves. The better the player does stealth, the less likely you are to succeed. The better the player does stealth, the less likely you are to succeed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the whole point tho, the suggestion has been that people running around like idiots are racking up a high kill rate. Basically you;re saying the same as I am, it requires forethought.

MuddledMuppet2
11-21-2010, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by MuddledMuppet2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MuddledMuppet2:
Could I suggest, you actuallt try doing what you think is happening for a few games, and see if it is indeed a successful tactic. Go and run around like a loony, sprinting at every charcter model who looks like your target and see if it works? My feeling is it won't, but I'll happily accept if you tell me otherwise!
If you do it with some measure of forethought, you can get 50% - 70% success rate against players who don't focus on picking NPCs who look like themselves. The better the player does stealth, the less likely you are to succeed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the whole point tho, the suggestion has been that people running around like idiots are racking up a high kill rate. Basically you;re saying the same as I am, it requires forethought. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

obliviondoll
11-21-2010, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by MuddledMuppet2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MuddledMuppet2:
Could I suggest, you actuallt try doing what you think is happening for a few games, and see if it is indeed a successful tactic. Go and run around like a loony, sprinting at every charcter model who looks like your target and see if it works? My feeling is it won't, but I'll happily accept if you tell me otherwise!
If you do it with some measure of forethought, If you do it with some measure of forethought, you can get 50% - 70% success rate against players who don't focus on picking NPCs who look like themselves. The better the player does stealth, the less likely you are to succeed. The better the player does stealth, the less likely you are to succeed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the whole point tho, the suggestion has been that people running around like idiots are racking up a high kill rate. Basically you;re saying the same as I am, it requires forethought. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're saying they're watching and planning.

I'm saying think things through on the run.

Your way you'd up the kill rate to 70% to 100% where I'm calling it 50% - 70%.

And my way or yours, kills on other runners are guaranteed unless they break your chase.

E-Zekiel
11-21-2010, 10:52 AM
Racking up a high kill rate doesn't make you win. It's a good way to lose, in fact. That's why it's fine as is.

As a note, if you actually try to blend with crowds and move around carefully and never out in the open, you will find that it's much harder for people to just run right up and kill you. Unless they're ok with killing the wrong target and getting no points, I guess. This happens to me all the time.

SeekReality
11-21-2010, 10:57 AM
Stun is great at the moment, it normally works fine for me, as i spend most my time in a crowd. but one thing that annoys me with it sometimes is when someone just pops a smoke ontop of a roof or something which gives them the ability to stun you, even if they pop a smoke while you about to kill them they dodge it and stun you.

ShootingProdi
11-21-2010, 01:11 PM
There are so many ways to stun a person it's not even funny, you just need to be creative.. Smoke bomb or mute or even charge if used in the right way can turn the fight around.. If you see someone coming at you go to a roof wait for them to climb throw down mute/smoke bomb or charge and you will get them.

On ground wait a little bit before they get to you to use smoke/mute.. It is very very very easy to tell who the real person is.. Npc make round turns. Real people make direct turns.

obliviondoll
11-21-2010, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by SeekReality:
Stun is great at the moment, it normally works fine for me, as i spend most my time in a crowd. but one thing that annoys me with it sometimes is when someone just pops a smoke ontop of a roof or something which gives them the ability to stun you, even if they pop a smoke while you about to kill them they dodge it and stun you.
But smoke bomb means they can't have something useful in other situations equipped to that ability slot, and using it means a cooldown during which it could be needed again.

Taking any ability is a risk on some level.

Squiddish
11-21-2010, 06:01 PM
Stun is fine the way it is IMO.

The only thing I can think of that might make it better is to make it work more effeiciently against targets in high-profile, outside a chase. This might help with the sprinters problem (maybe make an animation where you dodge to the side and clothesline them, that would be awesome).

rb2610
11-21-2010, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Snipemaster666:
Stun is fine the way it is IMO.

The only thing I can think of that might make it better is to make it work more effeiciently against targets in high-profile, outside a chase. This might help with the sprinters problem (maybe make an animation where you dodge to the side and clothesline them, that would be awesome).

I already suggested almost exactly that!! :P

Squiddish
11-21-2010, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by rb2610:


I already suggested almost exactly that!! :P
Sorry I didn't read through the whole page of ideas before I posted :X

In that case I second your idea.

Ven_GencE999
11-21-2010, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Snipemaster666:
Stun is fine the way it is IMO.

The only thing I can think of that might make it better is to make it work more effeiciently against targets in high-profile, outside a chase. This might help with the sprinters problem (maybe make an animation where you dodge to the side and clothesline them, that would be awesome).

Agreed.
If anything improve it against those in high profile ONLY. It's a win/win for everyone except runners and they deserve to be punished harshly

rb2610
11-24-2010, 02:20 PM
I have just noticed that occasionally I have been able to 'dodge' an assassination attempt, then follow up with a stun, complete with a 'dodge' animation, it was pretty cool, happens very rarely though.

nm0322
11-24-2010, 02:35 PM
If anything, I think we should be given the ability to shoot our pursuers. That way they get punished for being so obvious.

E-Zekiel
11-24-2010, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Ven_GencE999:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snipemaster666:
Stun is fine the way it is IMO.

The only thing I can think of that might make it better is to make it work more effeiciently against targets in high-profile, outside a chase. This might help with the sprinters problem (maybe make an animation where you dodge to the side and clothesline them, that would be awesome).

Agreed.
If anything improve it against those in high profile ONLY. It's a win/win for everyone except runners and they deserve to be punished harshly </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also agreed. Maybe a sprinting jump stun, like the sprinting jump assassinate? *thinks of the body surfing animation from Prototype, where you put your foot on their head and grind it into the ground*

rocketxsurgeon
11-24-2010, 03:56 PM
Stun is fine. Allow me to elaborate.

Stun is intended to be the last resort for means of escape. Meaning don't plan to run up to someone and stun them, because it wont work, you'll get killed.

Oatkeeper
11-24-2010, 05:24 PM
Stun if fine as it is

proof (skip to 8:11 and watch it until the end):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i22yNYXlk9M

case and point

KraNkIt
11-29-2010, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Oatkeeper:
Stun if fine as it is

proof (skip to 8:11 and watch it until the end):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i22yNYXlk9M

case and point

There's quite some luck in that video though. Yes the player is good but the stun at 9:17 I often tried exactly the same and most of the time I miss. So now I stick with staying hidden but it's a shame.

Maybe it was lag, maybe I was unlucky and played only against people with crazy reflexes but when that happens to me I wish that stun would work a bit better. It should stay as a last mean but it should be possible to defend when it's SO clear that the person coming to its prey is an assassin, EVEN if they are incognito (some people don't seem to have seen that the IA don't walk left-right for 10 seconds...).

EscoBlades
11-29-2010, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
No.

Stun is fine.

Don't expect to use stun as a way to escape.

Escape first, THEN stun.

If you use it that way, it's perfectly fine as it is.

This! ^^

xCr0wnedNorris
11-29-2010, 04:43 PM
I don't think stuns power should be increased, it's fine just the way it is. However, I feel that the effects of stun are miniscule and don't really provide that much use except as a means to momentarily stop your pursuer. Stun in team based games are especailly under-powered and the only real benefit of it is at least it provides your team an extra 200 points before you die.

assassin087
11-29-2010, 04:57 PM
Stun is not supppose to be reliable because than you would not have to hide or be as careful. It only works if used right.