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Danschnell
11-06-2004, 05:00 PM
I used to 'whine' that the British .303 LMGs were overmodelled because the FW190s and even B-17s, planes you would imagine to be pretty tough, would burst into flames at even the slightest touch from a .303 hit. Sometimes the Ju87 would burst into flames from a single .303 hit.

Anyway, it was pointed out that the planes at the time carried quite a few LMGs, like the hurricane had 12, so it probably would be able to set planes alight in a very short time.

I didn't believe it though. I have been trying out the Ki43 1a this time. It only has two LMGs. This makes it probably the most poorly armed fighter of the entire WW2. It should only be able to down a light plane after expending nearly all its ammo, because it couldn't get any worse.

However, In PF, the 2 LMGs of the Ki43 are setting FW190s alight with only a few hits, P40 engines stop dead, and A-20s and B-25s are bursting into flames within 3 or 4 seconds.

Really, this is even more reason to believe that those Light machine guns really are still very overmodelled.

Danschnell
11-06-2004, 05:00 PM
I used to 'whine' that the British .303 LMGs were overmodelled because the FW190s and even B-17s, planes you would imagine to be pretty tough, would burst into flames at even the slightest touch from a .303 hit. Sometimes the Ju87 would burst into flames from a single .303 hit.

Anyway, it was pointed out that the planes at the time carried quite a few LMGs, like the hurricane had 12, so it probably would be able to set planes alight in a very short time.

I didn't believe it though. I have been trying out the Ki43 1a this time. It only has two LMGs. This makes it probably the most poorly armed fighter of the entire WW2. It should only be able to down a light plane after expending nearly all its ammo, because it couldn't get any worse.

However, In PF, the 2 LMGs of the Ki43 are setting FW190s alight with only a few hits, P40 engines stop dead, and A-20s and B-25s are bursting into flames within 3 or 4 seconds.

Really, this is even more reason to believe that those Light machine guns really are still very overmodelled.

chris455
11-06-2004, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Danschnell:
I used to 'whine' that the British .303 LMGs were overmodelled because the FW190s and even B-17s, planes you would imagine to be pretty tough, would burst into flames at even the slightest touch from a .303 hit. Sometimes the Ju87 would burst into flames from a single .303 hit.

Anyway, it was pointed out that the planes at the time carried quite a few LMGs, like the hurricane had 12, so it probably would be able to set planes alight in a very short time.

I didn't believe it though. I have been trying out the Ki43 1a this time. It only has two LMGs. This makes it probably the most poorly armed fighter of the entire WW2. It should only be able to down a light plane after expending nearly all its ammo, because it couldn't get any worse.

However, In PF, the 2 LMGs of the Ki43 are setting FW190s alight with only a few hits, P40 engines stop dead, and A-20s and B-25s are bursting into flames within 3 or 4 seconds.

Really, this is even more reason to believe that those Light machine guns really are still very overmodelled. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On this we agree, entirely. I believe this applies to nearly all the rifle-caliber MGs in the game.

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-07-2004, 12:39 PM
Odd. I had a Ki-43 use its entire ammo load firing at my Wildcat just lastnite. I lost some of my controls and sustained some wing damage, but not hardly the damage you are referring to considering I took atleast one hundred hits or more...or so it seemed.

actionhank1786
11-07-2004, 12:49 PM
Are .50 cals LMGs?

A.K.Davis
11-07-2004, 01:52 PM
No, .50s (12.7mm) are Heavy MGs to the U.S., cannons to some other countries (Japanese considered their 12.7mm a cannon, same with Germans and 13mm).

TheJoyStick
11-07-2004, 02:20 PM
Yup.. Japs torch me, and they're faster than hell, too.


I hate fighting the KI-84.. Makes the LA's from the original Il2 feel like an F-15C vs a BF-108 or something.

As a result, I fly about 10k higher than I normally do since I can sometimes get them to compress if I can live long enough in the dive.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-07-2004, 03:14 PM
Hi,

LW 7.92mm ain't overmodelled.
They are still useless like they always were. But hey - they're LW - what else can you expect?!

Cheers,
Norris

clint-ruin
11-07-2004, 03:32 PM
Sometime around AEP2.00 the API effects for .303 rounds seemed to go up quite a bit. If they hit a fuel tank as little as one visual round [A6M] can kill the plane from the resulting explosion.

The MG15/17s still seem to lack API altogether in PF. Something should really get done about that.

AnaK774
11-07-2004, 03:40 PM
12 .303's in hurri mkII seem to be really effective still

Try it yourself in QMB if u dont believe.
Put ju52 as targets, with ammmo of course, tell how many u get.

If u find it 2 easy, try hurri mkI with only 8mg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG53Frankyboy
11-07-2004, 06:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Danschnell:
I used to 'whine' that the British .303 LMGs were overmodelled because the FW190s and even B-17s, planes you would imagine to be pretty tough, would burst into flames at even the slightest touch from a .303 hit. Sometimes the Ju87 would burst into flames from a single .303 hit.

Anyway, it was pointed out that the planes at the time carried quite a few LMGs, like the hurricane had 12, so it probably would be able to set planes alight in a very short time.

I didn't believe it though. I have been trying out the Ki43 1a this time. It only has two LMGs. This makes it probably the most poorly armed fighter of the entire WW2. It should only be able to down a light plane after expending nearly all its ammo, because it couldn't get any worse.

However, In PF, the 2 LMGs of the Ki43 are setting FW190s alight with only a few hits, P40 engines stop dead, and A-20s and B-25s are bursting into flames within 3 or 4 seconds.

Really, this is even more reason to believe that those Light machine guns really are still very overmodelled. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, most Axis LMGs are misisong incendary rounds - allies have , just a few examples:

4 x MG17 from Bf110G-2
http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/ZeroFeuer1.jpg


4 x wing breonings .30 from P-39N
http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/ZeroFeuer2.jpg

2(!) x SchKas from Yak-1
http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/ZeroFeuer3.jpg


i would say NOT every LMG is "overmodelled" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Giganoni
11-07-2004, 06:25 PM
Hmm..3-4 second bursts? Thats a long time. 500 rds per gun...I don't care if there are only two that is a lot of lead. P-40s engine is a big target (plus inline), multi engine bombers have easy to hit engines and big fuel tanks. Have you tried downing a Wildcat in a Ki-43? Its a hard job. With the sight though it makes it easier, because the only sure way to down them is a Pilot kill (for me at least).

I don't know where Danschnell believes the Ki-43 a should only be able to down light planes and most of its ammo spent? So Ki-43s should only be allowed to hit the fuselage of planes? Targeting the engines, cockpit, and fuel tanks would be foulplay?

sapre
11-07-2004, 07:31 PM
Downing B17 with 7.7?
Impossible.
I just tryed it in QMB in a A6M2, and I spend all of my MG round and it only caused a small puff of smoke from 1 of the engines.

WWMaxGunz
11-07-2004, 07:43 PM
In a SimHQ thread there was someone linking a film of a P-40 being shot up by 151/20's.
Except it wasn't according to another, the avi had been passed around a few years ago
as an Italian fighter using 2 nose MG's. That guy had the video also on tape he bought,
it is the same he says.

Ho goes on to tell about the Italian MG ammo as all incendiary, or maybe it was half HE
but no solid ball ammo or AP-only. I think just incendiary, someone can check. Then
he went on to say that the ammo was so good that the Japanese made their own version as
close copies. Well, they were allies!

LMG's should not pierce armor, or much armor even at direct angle unless very close and
for seat armor of some planes, not even then. Past that I can't state about structure
like wing spars. 30 cal MG's on ground can take 10" diameter trees down pretty quick
with a good gunner. They can chew up earth works in time. They ain't much to a .50
but they're not exactly popguns.

NegativeGee
11-07-2004, 08:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sapre:
Downing B17 with 7.7?
Impossible.
I just tryed it in QMB in a A6M2, and I spend all of my MG round and it only caused a small puff of smoke from 1 of the engines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

7.7mm are as bad as 7.92mm on LW guns. I brought down a G with the MG's on a Bf-110 but it must have been control damage as there was only one slightly smokey engine and fuel vapour trails.

The LMG's on the Ki-43 are a bit better than those on the Zero, certainly from the point of view of getting smoking fuel tanks.

Still, they are all worse than the ShKAS and Browning 0.30 who have incendaries.

chris455
11-08-2004, 08:59 AM
What are people's thoughts on the Lewis type MGs that the Val and Kate are packing in their rear gun pits?
They can knock an engine out seemingly with 1 hit. I understand the vulnerability of inlines, but try it with Hellcat, Brewster, even P-47, same thing. It simply doesn't seem historical at all. If a pilot were careless enough to "park" his plane behind a Val long enough to absorb 30, 50, 80+ rounds of 7,7 then I can see fatal damage to any engine.
But a chance hit nearly always causing either immediate or near immediate engine failure? No.
It's a huge immersion killer for me.

(BTW, before anybody tries to use the "learn how to fly" argument here, reflect on this. Even Saburo Sakai got hit by defensive fire, by .50cals no less, and both he and his plane survived. Are you listening 1C? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Hopefully, the AA tweak Oleg has promised in the upcoming patch might work for all types of defensive armament, not just that from ships.

Jippo01
11-08-2004, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
Still, they are all worse than the ShKAS and Browning 0.30 who have incendaries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


But why there is such difference?

There is no reason.

Also I rounds improve performance, but it still is a LIGHT machinegun, not a cannon.


-jippo

WWMaxGunz
11-08-2004, 10:21 AM
Same cartridge and belt feed of medium machine gun used on ground.
Same or more barrel I think, 18 inch for M-60 MMG.
LMG's are not belt fed are they? Called light because less weight to carry.
Submachineguns use pistol rounds as do machinepistols with pistol barrels only.

They won't pierce armor or go clear through thick metal. Bomber engines seem
to have some protection in behind but not very wide. Fighter engines have the
pilot and seat behind and maybe thin armor 2x helmet thick (but harder metal?)
on the sides, little on the front that air has to come through for most.
FW 190 has a ring inside but it is not a full shield. Prop spinners are
supposed to provide some protection, seem not to or not much. Oil cooler or
liquid radiator gets shot and we seem to get instant engine failure or no
effect I've seen like back in original IL2 you would get hit non-critical
on engine and run for minutes maybe with engine degrading worse and worse.
Maybe it just doesn't happen to me last I played much, I never see posts
tell of it.

30 cal bullets should do good on deflection and cockpit strikes on non-armor
glass front and rear of fighters. Blast a bomber cockpit glass from front
aspect and even the smallest gun should ruin their day. Or those engines
from front or sides.

Only thing is to hit something important and from unprotected angles. Then
the smaller bullets with high ROF should really shine.

faustnik
11-08-2004, 10:38 AM
Maximum AP ability for a LMG round should be around 7mm. Cockpit armor is designed to defeat rifle caliber rounds so, most are 6 - 8mm thick.

I will test the MG17 effectiveness when possible. Remember the ShKas has a much higher ROF than other light MGs when making any comparison.

JG7_Rall
11-08-2004, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
No, .50s (12.7mm) are Heavy MGs to the U.S., cannons to some other countries (Japanese considered their 12.7mm a cannon, same with Germans and 13mm). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was joking...

Yet the German LMG's (like on the Emil) seem to do very little damage. Coincidence? I'll leave that to your imagination.

LStarosta
11-08-2004, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
No, .50s (12.7mm) are Heavy MGs to the U.S., cannons to some other countries (Japanese considered their 12.7mm a cannon, same with Germans and 13mm). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was joking...

Yet the German LMG's (like on the Emil) seem to do very little damage. Coincidence? I'll leave that to your imagination. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


WTF RALL...

@11 j00r y@|&lt;$ I2 b310ng 2 3m1L!!!111


I like the Emil's weapons better than the F2's. Now the F2 is a peashooter...

JG7_Rall
11-08-2004, 05:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
No, .50s (12.7mm) are Heavy MGs to the U.S., cannons to some other countries (Japanese considered their 12.7mm a cannon, same with Germans and 13mm). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was joking...

Yet the German LMG's (like on the Emil) seem to do very little damage. Coincidence? I'll leave that to your imagination. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


WTF RALL...

@11 j00r y@|&lt;$ I2 b310ng 2 3m1L!!!111


I like the Emil's weapons better than the F2's. Now the F2 is a peashooter... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO! Pure comical genius!

I meant the MG's, not the cannons. n00b. r0xx0rz ur b0xx0rz LOL!

LStarosta
11-08-2004, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
No, .50s (12.7mm) are Heavy MGs to the U.S., cannons to some other countries (Japanese considered their 12.7mm a cannon, same with Germans and 13mm). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was joking...

Yet the German LMG's (like on the Emil) seem to do very little damage. Coincidence? I'll leave that to your imagination. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


WTF RALL...

@11 j00r y@|&lt;$ I2 b310ng 2 3m1L!!!111


I like the Emil's weapons better than the F2's. Now the F2 is a peashooter... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO! Pure comical genius!

I meant the MG's, not the cannons. n00b. r0xx0rz ur b0xx0rz LOL! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DUMBAß, TOHSE 8MM MAUSAR KEAN W00p j00r YAKZ LOL!

JG7_Rall
11-08-2004, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
No, .50s (12.7mm) are Heavy MGs to the U.S., cannons to some other countries (Japanese considered their 12.7mm a cannon, same with Germans and 13mm). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was joking...

Yet the German LMG's (like on the Emil) seem to do very little damage. Coincidence? I'll leave that to your imagination. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


WTF RALL...

@11 j00r y@|&lt;$ I2 b310ng 2 3m1L!!!111


I like the Emil's weapons better than the F2's. Now the F2 is a peashooter... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO! Pure comical genius!

I meant the MG's, not the cannons. n00b. r0xx0rz ur b0xx0rz LOL! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

double post

JG7_Rall
11-08-2004, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
No, .50s (12.7mm) are Heavy MGs to the U.S., cannons to some other countries (Japanese considered their 12.7mm a cannon, same with Germans and 13mm). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was joking...

Yet the German LMG's (like on the Emil) seem to do very little damage. Coincidence? I'll leave that to your imagination. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


WTF RALL...

@11 j00r y@|&lt;$ I2 b310ng 2 3m1L!!!111


I like the Emil's weapons better than the F2's. Now the F2 is a peashooter... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO! Pure comical genius!

I meant the MG's, not the cannons. n00b. r0xx0rz ur b0xx0rz LOL! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DUMBAß, TOHSE 8MM MAUSAR KEAN W00p j00r YAKZ LOL! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

u 4r3 a kun00b LOL t3h y444k 1z fur l0z3rs LOLOL!!! u r n00b LOL! y@|&lt;z r n0t d3r sh13b3n LOL!

faustnik
11-09-2004, 12:14 AM
Well, I did some testing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



MG17:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Mg17_1.jpg

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Mg17_2.jpg

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Mg17_3.jpg



ShKas:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/ShKas_1.jpg

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/ShKas_2.jpg

Browning:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Browning_1.jpg

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Browning_2.jpg

So, the Mg17 has amazingly little effect. The ShKas is very potent and the Browning has good effect.

My questions are:

- How many bullets does each hit arrow represent? It is the same number for each gun?

- Was there a significant difference in ammo types with the differenct weapons?

clint-ruin
11-09-2004, 12:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Well, I did some testing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

So, the Mg17 has amazingly little effect. The ShKas is very potent and the Browning has good effect.

My questions are:

- How many bullets does each hit arrow represent? It is the same number for each gun?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. It's packetised for online play and to lower the CPU load. Different amounts for different guns though. They try to get ROF rates as representative as they can, though there are some exceptions [UB, Browning .50, ShKAS] that do a lot worse in terms of spitting out rounds rapidly than they really ought.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
- Was there a significant difference in ammo types with the differenct weapons? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I know there has been documentation posted showing that the rifle cal german guns deployed and used API rounds [not sure of mix]. Butck2k would know. They are not in the game.

Should point out that if you directly compare AP to AP performance the MG17 is actually OK compared to the others, at least over short ranges. Engines [directly on the engine, not penetrating the wing into it] and the pilot [again, don't go through the armor] are quite vulnerable and killable in a similar amount of time and visual rounds to the .303 and ShKAS.

plumps_
11-09-2004, 01:04 AM
I don't think that light MGs are overmodelled in FB. In real life a single Romanian Hurricane MkI armed with light MGs could set fire to and shoot down three DB-3 bombers (read the story (http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/p014.htm)). We can repeat that in FB with the Hurricane's MGs, so that's all right.

The only thing I don't understand is why we can't do the same with German MGs.

faustnik
11-09-2004, 01:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
]

No. It's packetised for online play and to lower the CPU load. Different amounts for different guns though. They try to get ROF rates as representative as they can, though there are some exceptions [UB, Browning .50, ShKAS] that do a lot worse in terms of spitting out rounds rapidly than they really ought.


As far as I know there has been documentation posted showing that the rifle cal german guns deployed and used API rounds [not sure of mix]. Butck2k would know. They are not in the game.

Should point out that if you directly compare AP to AP performance the MG17 is actually OK compared to the others, at least over short ranges. Engines [directly on the engine, not penetrating the wing into it] and the pilot [again, don't go through the armor] are quite vulnerable and killable in a similar amount of time and visual rounds to the .303 and ShKAS. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks Clint. That might make a huge difference. If, for example, each ShKas hit arrow equals four rounds and each Mg17 arrow equals two, that would explain a lot.

If you are correct about the API rounds being used by the LW, then it does not look like they are modeled.

Lots of questions to be answered before we can jump to any conclusions.

Atzebrueck
11-09-2004, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
No. It's packetised for online play and to lower the CPU load. Different amounts for different guns though. They try to get ROF rates as representative as they can, though there are some exceptions [UB, Browning .50, ShKAS] that do a lot worse in terms of spitting out rounds rapidly than they really ought.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As far as I know every arrow represents a single bullet. With some ammunition you get more arrows, representing the shrapnel. But the pictures faustnik posted show only arrows pointing towards flight vector.

About the real ammunition type:
http://www.jg51.de/JG51/report/treffen04-2/41.jpg

clint-ruin
11-09-2004, 12:36 PM
Shrapnel and fragment arrows come from HE/MG rounds pretty much exclusively. Some guns [like the .50] do actually have HE rounds which I think confuses people when they look at it in arcade mode.

The .50 cal guns in the game shoot ~4 rounds a sec, rather than ~10. Gets worse as ROF increases. NS45 is 1/1 round, as are most other heavy slow firing guns. But doing the deflection/penetration/shrapnel and other damage effects for true 1/1 rounds with say 10 aircraft firing thousands of rounds/min at once is something we really don't have the power to pull out of a home PC yet.

Damage is scaled, don't know exactly how though. Penetration is as for a single bullet, damage to component effects can be as for multiple shots I think.

Atzebrueck
11-09-2004, 12:40 PM
No, that's not true.
From one of the IL2 patches on, the engine represents every single bullet. Don't count the tracers.

clint-ruin
11-09-2004, 12:44 PM
Um, I'm not counting the tracers.

faustnik
11-09-2004, 01:10 PM
Thanks for the ammo type shot Atzebrueck. Looks like there are plenty of MG17 rounds that should be igniting fuel like the ShKas and Browning.

Clint made a good point about AP ability of the Mg17. It might not be causing fires like the other MGs but, might be causing plenty of other types of damage. I think the fires kill planes quickly though so, it would be good to have it fixed.

JG53Frankyboy
11-09-2004, 02:15 PM
well ,the proplrm is realy that german lMGs are NOT loaded with an incendary ammo !
so far i remeber the japanese have also none (shooting with a A6M2 at a A6M2 )

here are the old, and i think (seeing my pistures above) still actual , loadouts

Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018

AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0


MG 17
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 810.0
power = 0

ShKAS
// APIT - API - T - API

APIT
mass = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0.0005

API
mass = 0.0096
speed = 871.0
power = 0.0005

T
massa = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0

JG53Frankyboy
11-09-2004, 02:38 PM
here are the Typ97 LMG of a A6M2 , looks like no incendary loaded
http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/ZeroFeuer4.jpg

here are Typ89 LMG of Ki-43-Ia , looks loke incendary loaded ! (actually they sound and look like Brownings ! )
http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/ZeroFeuer5.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
11-09-2004, 02:58 PM
the question should realy be:
whats the reason why MG15 , MG17, MG81 & Typ97 have no incendary rounds ?

Willey
11-09-2004, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Well, I did some testing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

So, the Mg17 has amazingly little effect. The ShKas is very potent and the Browning has good effect.

My questions are:

- How many bullets does each hit arrow represent? It is the same number for each gun?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. It's packetised for online play and to lower the CPU load. Different amounts for different guns though. They try to get ROF rates as representative as they can, though there are some exceptions [UB, Browning .50, ShKAS] that do a lot worse in terms of spitting out rounds rapidly than they really ought. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just FYI: They "fixed" that with FB. It was like that back in Il-2 with MG 17 (1/3), Brownings and ShKAS (1/2) and maybe some more which are mounted on AI fighters.

clint-ruin
11-09-2004, 11:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
Just FYI: They "fixed" that with FB. It was like that back in Il-2 with MG 17 (1/3), Brownings and ShKAS (1/2) and maybe some more which are mounted on AI fighters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, no they didn't.

JtD
11-10-2004, 12:03 AM
Also, those pictures come from offline play. No reason for packeting there.

To my best knowledge every arrow represents a single bullet.

I know that every single bullet is modelled.

clint-ruin
11-10-2004, 12:27 AM
If bullets are 1/1 then there should be 9.5 arrows, per gun, per second out of the .50 cal.

For the .303, one second of fire should result in 19 arrows or hit dots per second per gun.

For the ShKAS, there should be 30 arrows per second per gun.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
11-10-2004, 01:42 AM
you forget that not every single round actually hits the target.

and yes it is 1 per round.

clint-ruin
11-10-2004, 01:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaBo_HH-BlackSheep:
you forget that not every single round actually hits the target.

and yes it is 1 per round. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you actually gone and done this? Firing the two wing guns on the I-16 for one full second should produce around 60 hit dots. I'm going from what appears on the ground in arcade mode here.

edit: just to clarify this further:

(C €" comment by Jerry): To show all of the bullets in some way would be very graphically intensive, even for cutting edge CPUs used by the general public. (Think about it - it's not just one aircraft and it's gun involved in any situation, but many). This is why not all bullets/shells and their impact or damage are rendered by the game engine - but the damage they inflict IS calculated and included by the game engine!
The bullets/shells which are not rendered still create damage as far as the game engine is concerned. Just because you don't see them or their effect doesn't mean that they are not part of the cumulative damage effect of your gunfire.
(A): Jerry, you are correct,
I just add one other thing - imagine the planes with 8 MGs... then with 12 firing simultaniusly..... We did the test in the past. Such amount of bullets at once were decreasing FPS in 2-3 types over clean airfield and in 4 typems over city... That was on 1,4 MHZ PC two years ago... with best video card and a lot of RAM.
Link: 08/15/02 02:24PM

Now, I remember reading Oleg saying something about FB introducing 1/1 rounds as well, but I can't find it in Ask Oleg, and I have a feeling that he was actually saying "..yeah we'll give you 1/1 bullets, then you will all complain about how slow the game is".

The bullet graphics [tracers and other rounds] are, I think, still very much packetised. The actual number of rounds a plane has is counted down as in reality - you can see this on the console with stat requests. But this just governs how much strength a "bullet" has when it's sent out of the gun. ROF changes as belts wind down have been found by JTD, but as far as I know this doesn't change the visual rounds - just the damage percentage assigned to them when they're spat out.

They also try to scale ROF as well as they can. 2 unsynched ShKAS produce around 30 'real' rounds in PF - should be around 60. The ShKAS rip through their round sequence very quickly, though, and they are by far the fastest firing gun in the game [as they should be]. The MG17 does what ..1100rpm unsynch? If you take a look at what's actually being spat out of the guns though, you'll get an impression of what MG did to the gunnery here.

Think of the rounds in FB as a container that gets filled up with a type of damage, and gets spat out at a fixed interval.

As Oleg said in the above quote, I think we can safely assume that 10x Hurricane IIb firing 12x .303 that spit out 19x rounds per gun per second - plus their opposition - plus everything else - and then meaninfully represent the type of damage done to each target .. we are starting to get to the limit of what could reasonably be assigned to 'gunnery' as a slice of CPU time.

Atzebrueck
11-10-2004, 06:15 AM
Your information is out-dated.
As I said before, since one IL2 patch (or FB :P) the rate of fire is represented without any packages.
It needed some threads to get the attention of the developers, but they changed it.

If you don't trust me, just shoot at the water and look at the impacts on the surface.

clint-ruin
11-10-2004, 07:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atzebrueck:
Your information is out-dated.
As I said before, since one IL2 patch (or FB :P) the rate of fire is represented without any packages.
It needed some threads to get the attention of the developers, but they changed it.

If you don't trust me, just shoot at the water and look at the impacts on the surface. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What can I say ? I can't stick screenshots up right now, but if you go in with arcade=1 and fire at the ground with the I-16 Type 18 from the secondary guns for one second you will see ~30 bullet impacts drawn rather than ~60. Pulling a hard turn helps seperate them to count, plus using the narrowest FOV level.

There's some other interesting things you can see from doing this, such as just how bad the guns firing in perfect sequence on the P40 and P51 hurts them in highspeed/high deflection shots. Lots and lots of uncovered degrees.

If PF really is counting every bullet now that's great - but just look at this for a second:

We have to keep the bullets in the game world and as active objects with a collision box and steady dropping angle and speed for about 800-1.5km for most rounds.

The Hurricane IIb fires 19 rounds per second out of 12 guns. That's 228 rounds per second, with the rounds staying in the game world for up to 3-4 seconds depending. When each of those rounds hits any object at any point, the deflection and penetration has to be figured out for that round, as well as incendiary effects if certain kinds of surfaces are intersected.

Now times that by say, I don't know, 4 planes out of a 16 plane formation firing at once. And don't forget everything else from physics to FMs to AI to graphics to doppler sound to whatever else has to happen at precisely that second.

I think that's .. wildly optimistic to say the least in terms of expectations as to the performance of their code. If they've done it that's magnificent, but if they're doing that for all the rounds then they're not actually drawn in as objects even in arcade mode. I am pretty sure that the packetising of the rounds is what results in some of the single round wing snaps and other things people see from time to time, too.

PFs gunnery model is the best yet done, don't get me wrong, there's nothing even close to the performance they're getting out of it either. But I don't think it's a -magical- gunnery system either. Everything else in the sim has had to be shoehorned into the capabilities of a midrange PC, and if Oleg is saying it drops 3 frames from a 1.4ghz machine to do full round calculations, you can work out that even if you double processor speed, you're still looking at horrid drops, especially for say, fighters + bombers + carriers + battleships. We don't seem to have that. I get drops if I enable shadows for the flak explosions, but that's not a lot to do with calculating the rounds themselves. And I've even run PF on a 1.2ghz Tbird PC now without seeing that.

Anyhow, if Oleg wants to step in and elaborate a bit more on the gunnery model - especially the lack of API for MG17 as well as the A6Ms 7.7mm guns - then that would be very helpful.

faustnik
11-10-2004, 12:00 PM
I received a very short reply from 1C on the issue. It said:

"1. Arcade mode isn't the method to check weapon
2. You should test it only in normal or full real settings."

I'm not sure how to test the weapons without arcade enabled???

I did more testing last night and got some good tracks but, I guess they are useless. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/MG17vMig.jpg

clint-ruin
11-10-2004, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I received a very short reply from 1C on the issue. It said:

"1. Arcade mode isn't the method to check weapon
2. You should test it only in normal or full real settings."

I'm not sure how to test the weapons without arcade enabled???

I did more testing last night and got some good tracks but, I guess they are useless. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That rates with "the landing gear causes .50 cal dispersion" as "most confusing answer ever received from 1c".

JG53Frankyboy
11-10-2004, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I received a very short reply from 1C on the issue. It said:

"1. Arcade mode isn't the method to check weapon
2. You should test it only in normal or full real settings."

I'm not sure how to test the weapons without arcade enabled???

I did more testing last night and got some good tracks but, I guess they are useless. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

they can say what ever they want. if i need DOZENS of hits and the target doesnt burn and other weapons need only few hits to burn , it should be clear.

propably it was a missunderstanding betwenn Arcade setting in conf.ini and "easy damage modell" in difficultie settings ?

Gibbage1
11-10-2004, 01:06 PM
Here is my thoughts to a possible translation.

Remember. There are TWO "Arcade" modes in IL2.

#1, turning on Arcade=1 in the conf.ini

#2, "Arcade" mode in difficulty

Maybe he thinks your talking about #2 and not #1. Its possible. Been translating Oleg's E-mails for years, but I have been wrong many times.

P.S. Last night I tested the BF-110's MG17's on almost every aircraft. Only thing it can "light up" is a TB3. How odd that the most damage resistant aircraft in IL2 is the only one prone too the MG17? I think we found the TB3's Kriptonite, be sure! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
11-10-2004, 01:08 PM
I'll make some new tracks in normal and resend. I'll also in include the "arcade=1" tracks with a note of exactly what I meant by "arcade".

Thinking more about this issue, it is going to effect the PTO more than the ETO or Ostfront. My Fw190 has a ton of 20mm ammo, if I had my way, I'd get the ground crew to just remove the Mg17 anyway. Even the Bf109F4/G2 has plenty of 20mm to get the kill. The A6M2/M3 however, is severly effected. With only 60 rounds of 20mm per gun, the Zero relies heavily on its 7.7mm. Fire is one of the main killers of aircraft in PF.

No wonder the Zero pilots are getting frusted fighting our Wildcats and Corsairs. Our .50 cal sure has no problem igniting their fuel. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif I'll keep trying to get this looked at.

JG53Frankyboy
11-11-2004, 04:10 AM
and here a test on a more rotectet plane as the A6M2/G4M - just to shwo that there incendary rounds are alos very usefull !

a B25-C attacked from

4x MG17 of a Bf110G-2
http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/MitchelFeuer1.jpg

4x 30cal Brownings of a P-39N = LOL (sry)
http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/MitchelFeuer2.jpg

2x Typ97 of an A6M2-Model21
http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/MitchelFeuer3.jpg

plumps_
11-11-2004, 09:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'll make some new tracks in normal and resend. I'll also in include the "arcade=1" tracks with a note of exactly what I meant by "arcade". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's no such thing as 'arcade=1' tracks and 'normal' tracks. As long as arcade=1 is set in the conf.ini you'll see the arrows in any .trk or offline mission you play, no matter what the settings were while you recorded the track. The 'arcade' information isn't included in the track, it gets added while you watch it.
Just ask him to set arcade=1 in the conf.ini before he watches your tracks.

Blackjack174
11-11-2004, 01:35 PM
regarding the arrows:

place a friendly/(empty)enemy me323 on an arifield
place ur own i16 type 18 there , turn around (or if u start behind get closer) until you simply cant shoot anywhere but at the airframe of the transport.
i fired 1 short burst of the sync. mgs , and it showed 8 arrows in the airframe , i tested what my shortest burst is with a self set coop with exact same aircraft (where u acnt see the arrows, but you can use the log after mission to see how many bullets fired), i got 6-8 shots everytime with the shortest burst i can fire with my stick, so every bullet = 1 arrow with the fastest MG in the game.
i think what olleg meant is that they traveled kind of packaged , so maybe the burstlenght combined with the green tracer computed with a diviation for the other bullets could compute fairly accurate all bullets without killing CPU.
(they wherent fired from the same place but stay correlated to the tracer and your flightpath/maneuvers after firing it)
Dont forget that online only your planes guns are computed , nobody elses gun, so no 10.000+ rounds flying trough the air. (except the host as he calculates firing for AI planes)
Hope i was able to tell what i think about how its done http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

clint-ruin
11-11-2004, 02:26 PM
Here's a track of a very quick QMB sessions with the Hurri2b. Fired a ~1.4 sec burst rather than 1 sec just to avoid undercounting due to the guns first starting up.

Got 116 rounds counted from the screenshots I took at FOV40.

Should be around 228 rounds per second.

track is here if you want to look [more eyes is always better - please tell me if I've made a simple mistake counting here].

http://users.bigpond.net.au/fb/!!!!!!!!rofhurri2b.rar (http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/!!!!!!!!rofhurri2b.rar)

This is from a single player game, not multiplayer. I couldn't get round counting through &gt; user stat working - does this even work with single player tracks?

Blackjack174
11-11-2004, 02:40 PM
first of all , i cant download ur rar , second round counting works (for the host) when u fly a coop mission , then end it and look in log , OR restart any other coop missions and type user STAT , dont know why , but if u set a eventlog.lst after landing it records the bullets fired hit too

clint-ruin
11-11-2004, 02:45 PM
Link should be fixed now.

WWMaxGunz
11-11-2004, 02:52 PM
With AEP I viewed P-51 shots in 1/4 speed with pauses at target POV on playback.
Hit arrows came in waves. Waves. Not steady. In play, you can fire steady with
.50's and targets can fly through the "stream" untouched sometimes and badly
stricken at others. The bullets of the .50's move in waves. Can that be the
only such gun? I don't think so.

clint-ruin
11-11-2004, 03:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
With AEP I viewed P-51 shots in 1/4 speed with pauses at target POV on playback.
Hit arrows came in waves. Waves. Not steady. In play, you can fire steady with
.50's and targets can fly through the "stream" untouched sometimes and badly
stricken at others. The bullets of the .50's move in waves. Can that be the
only such gun? I don't think so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The waves thing is a bit annoying yeah. As I said before, if you pull a hard turn and fire at the ground, you can see just which angles it's firing at on the way around. Leaves a lot of space uncovered in hard / fast turns.

Also - is it just me or has the .50 cal changed its tracer shot to come up more frequently in PF than in the ammo table?

Blackjack174
11-11-2004, 03:12 PM
i count around 112 but some seem double was not sure, then maybe two guns are grouped together in airplanes with many guns ?
in the i16 it seems 1:1 , but maybe not for the outer wing cannons with higher fire rate...
going to test outer wings now...

hmm , outer wings the same , every bullet, hurricane tested on the me323 as well , fired exactly 1 round from every mg , and exactly the same hits on the me323 as gunbarrels displayed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
maybe the blobs on the ground arent at all acurate ? the arrows seem 100% to be bullets.
i also fired full guns at a distance of 2 meters at the me323 and the framerate got down to 1fps becasue there where countless arrows sawing the other plane in half http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


ah and the "waves" thing you i only get if i set my convergence to high , with 100 meters convergence no plane can fly trough unharmed , if it set to high u can fly 100m behind a bf109 and shoot all around the fuselage , so in a turn or high deflection shot only the small wings of a bf/fw zero will cross the bulletstream for such a short time that no critical hits can be achieved (engine pilot), test it with minimum 100m , try it !

Vipez-
11-11-2004, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by plumps_:
I don't think that light MGs are overmodelled in FB. In real life a single Romanian Hurricane MkI armed with light MGs could set fire to and shoot down three DB-3 bombers (http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/p014.htm). We can repeat that in FB with the Hurricane's MGs, so that's all right.

The only thing I don't understand is why we can't do the same with German MGs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even better story here, http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace92.htm.. Jorma Sarvanto shot down 6 DB3s in 4 minutes with Fokker D.XXI (4x 7.92 mm Brownings)..

Then again Imho it is more of a plane DM issue, for example In IL-2/FB/PF has allways one of the toughest bombers in game, capable to absorb huge amount of damage, (esspecially machine gun damage).. certainly not the same DB-3 that server in war, which were highly flammable.. there is also Oleg's story, where a lone Junkers 88 was intetercepted over Murmansk, and four soviet Hurricane IIBs tried to shoot down the german JU88, .. Hurris had to RTB, because all four Hurris had depleted their ammo without bringing the Ju-88 down.. Later the Germans counted several hundred MG hits on this plane, and it still managed to land safely..

So definately the .303s were highly uneffective against armored targets. Imo the LMGs are fine, just in exception of MG15/MG17, which are pretty much useless. usually you can waste all your 2000 rounds in Emil on enemy plane with with no effect what so ever, whereas the Shkas/Hurri Brownings set them almost instantly..

edit: found Oleg's story:

"In January of 1942 three Hurricane IIBs of 191st IAP followed a reconnaissance Ju-88 for almost 10 minutes. All three planes depleted their ammunition and literally filled the Ju-88 with holes, but the German still flew on."

clint-ruin
11-11-2004, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackjack174:
ah and the "waves" thing you i only get if i set my convergence to high , with 100 meters convergence no plane can fly trough unharmed , if it set to high u can fly 100m behind a bf109 and shoot all around the fuselage , so in a turn or high deflection shot only the small wings of a bf/fw zero will cross the bulletstream for such a short time that no critical hits can be achieved (engine pilot), test it with minimum 100m , try it ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Con 100, P-51d, combat flaps turn:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/50waves.jpg

Also - seems to be showing every hit on the ground with a dot, at least to my eye.

WWMaxGunz
11-11-2004, 06:41 PM
The waves thing is only about evidence of bullets not firing smoothly one after the
other in stream. Each is modelled at strike but they travel in groups, not stream.

100m --- the time to impact is so soon. Convergence should have zero effect on if
the shots are travelling in groups/packets or not.

clint-ruin
11-11-2004, 11:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
The waves thing is only about evidence of bullets not firing smoothly one after the
other in stream. Each is modelled at strike but they travel in groups, not stream.

100m --- the time to impact is so soon. Convergence should have zero effect on if
the shots are travelling in groups/packets or not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah I know. I try to work within the conditions - people say it's 1/1 bullets in single player so I have to go record in single player, people say the waves thing is fixed at 100 con so I go test at 100 con, etc. Whatever :&gt;