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View Full Version : Do warbird pilots ever go at it ?



jayhall0315
03-11-2009, 02:49 AM
I saw a few of those episodes with Major Paul Moga on the discovery channel where they stage WWII fights like the P38 vs the Zero, etc...

My question is, Do warbird owners ever have a competition or demonstration where they fight their historical adversaries at full bore ? Personally if I was someone like Tom Cruise who had a few hundred million or more in the bank and owned a real rebuilt P51, I would be dying to see what she could really do. Of course I would insure the aircraft and would take precautions but I would still have to test it in a dive at 850 kph at full throttle too.

I would love to see a real demonstration of the F4U Corsair versus the Zero done in real life.

Do any of these wealthy businessman/entertainers/etc.. who own these rebuilt warbirds ever let it rip ?

general_kalle
03-11-2009, 03:49 AM
dogfighting is a risky businesss. even if your not shooting real bullets/shellss

when your turning everything you can you might stall it, when your coming head on theres a big risk of collision. also if your chasing somebody low you could hit the ground etc etc.

therefore i doubt any pilots would dare to push theese old aircrafts to their limit to avoid risking a crash..in ww2 they had no choice, while now we have the option to fly a little more safe.

Waldo.Pepper
03-11-2009, 03:54 AM
Only when you are up against Ernst Kessler.

ash1976
03-11-2009, 05:28 AM
Maybe slightly off topic but maybe look at reading this book about a group of WWII luftwaffe pilots who restore 8 109's and go up against restored P51's (& a Spit) - pure escapism & set in the 80's!!:

(US linky) http://www.amazon.com/Gray-Eag...nkefer/dp/0688049729 (http://www.amazon.com/Gray-Eagles-Duane-Unkefer/dp/0688049729)

(UK linky)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/pro...70504&sr=8-3&seller= (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0380702797/sr=8-3/qid=1236770504/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1236770504&sr=8-3&seller=)

I first read this about 12 years ago, remembered about it a few months back & ordered a 1 penny copy from a charity seller on Amazon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, its still a pretty good read!

OD_
03-11-2009, 05:51 AM
I think the other consideration would be the fact that you do not want to overstress the airframes as this would cut down how many flying hours they have left in them. I think this is why they do not do anything too outrageous in them.

LW_lcarp
03-11-2009, 06:22 AM
About 7 years or so I watched 2 P-51s Dog fighting above my work when the Oshkosh fly in was going on. Was pretty neat to see.

gorkyporky
03-11-2009, 07:08 AM
The dogfights in Iron Eagle 3 (maybe part 4, im not sure) were awsome. They had the Zero, p-38, a german one and a Spit. It was really fun to watch, i really need to see that movie again!

staticline1
03-11-2009, 08:04 AM
To each their own I guess, but I always saw that series as a crime against aviation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I_JG78_Max
03-11-2009, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by gorkyporky:
The dogfights in Iron Eagle 3 (maybe part 4, im not sure) were awsome. They had the Zero, p-38, a german one and a Spit. It was really fun to watch, i really need to see that movie again!

The "german one" in this movie is in reality a Mustang pretending to be a 109E, i guess because of its wing cannon.

Bearcat99
03-11-2009, 08:09 AM
The mock dogfights have little resemblance to real dogfights... and I doubt that any warbird owner would put his multimillion dollar aircraft or a pilot's life at risk.. for a play dogfight beyond what might look convincing to the untrained eye..

Hookecho
03-11-2009, 08:31 AM
if their insurance carrier got wind of it....they'd lose their coverage in most cases...you would not believe what it costs to insure one of these things. It makes insuring a set of Ferraris look cheap.....

Lt_Letum
03-11-2009, 08:43 AM
Mock dogfights have been done and historic planes
have been lost in them. A hurricane and it's
pilot where lost not so long ago in a mock
dogfight.

X32Wright
03-11-2009, 10:37 AM
Our squad mate [^]Miss*Strega informed us that when she took off in a P-51 there were limits on the manifold pressure she can take the plane to. She was limited to 30" while the plane is ideal at 50" at 2700 rpm and most of the people in Il-2 I bet flies the P-51 at above 60" if not above 70" manifold pressure with 3000 rpm. She was restricted to this because it will damage the engine if she went higher than this limit and would have been asked to 'buy' a whole new Merlin engine.

These are just one of the limitations of classic warbirds today that we have. Doing actual dogfighting would have been impossible although the plane she said handled well even at 30" manifold pressure.

The original link is here with her talking about it:

http://deltachevron.com/forums...0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10 (http://deltachevron.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=236&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10)

Hookecho
03-11-2009, 12:04 PM
I bet that 30" limitation was because the plane had 90 octane fuel in it and they are concerned with detonation in the cylinders. Anything above 90 octane is now considered special interest fuel and is insanely expensive to buy and even Shell quit making it a few years ago. The guys at Reno IIRC have to IMPORT 100+ octane fuel for the races

still even at 30"....I'd wet myself to fly a 'Stang

danjama
03-11-2009, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Hookecho:
I bet that 30" limitation was because the plane had 90 octane fuel in it and they are concerned with detonation in the cylinders. Anything above 90 octane is now considered special interest fuel and is insanely expensive to buy and even Shell quit making it a few years ago. The guys at Reno IIRC have to IMPORT 100+ octane fuel for the races

still even at 30"....I'd wet myself to fly a 'Stang

+1

I bet it had alot to do with the fuel type being used too. However, Strega comments that on her 51 flight, the plane was using 140 rated fuel....

TS_Sancho
03-11-2009, 01:05 PM
I was in attendance at an airshow in Olympia, Washington a few years back that featured a mock dogfight between a F4F Wildcat and one of the T6 Texans modified to look like an A6M Zero from the movie Tora Tora Tora. Pretty gentle low level stuff, chandelles and yo-yo's but still well worth the admission fee.
McChord AFBs annual show featured a P51 really putting her through her paces a seperate year. The pilot was doing hammerhead stalls (yes, in a P-51 in front of an airshow crowd), immelmans, high G turns with vapour pouring off the wings etc. It was amazing to see and hear.
Back in the mid 80's Boeing field hosted an F86 and a Mig15 as part of their yearly program. When it came time for the aerial display they chased each other back and forth over the field with the final pass finding the Sabre behind the Mig. They had some special effect rigged on the Sabre as they passed the grandstand they let rip a blank .50 cal burst. The crowd went nuts at that. Fun times.

Hookecho
03-11-2009, 01:41 PM
never mind i actually read the article above and....

Steiga said.....
Lastly, keep in mind that most owners of 51s will not allow more than 40" manifold pressure on their Merlins to preserve the engine lifespan. When I flew the F6 the owner set an absolute MAX limit to 30" for my flight or end up buying a replacement engine. This was with 140 grade fuel at sea level!
I had absolutely NO problem yanking and banking all day with that limitation, and frankly was a bit afraid of what that bad boy would be like had I pushed the loud lever to the gate.
One of the few things not modeled in this sim is controllable carb air ducting. I think Oleg made the effects automatic, and it's too bad. When buzzing around at a near standard atmosphere day I played with that control a bit. I found that an increased carb temp led to detonation rather quickly. On the opposite, full AUTO rich mixture and ram air fully open caused an increase in manifold pressure for a given setting. Straight and level I could FEEL the aircraft accelerate slightly just by diverting more air into the intake tract! My crude estimation was at 70F/28.90", that little trick was worth roughly 5 KIAS. Not bad for a little lever.

So it was a wear and tear thing....and god I'd hate to think of what a new merlin costs

danjama
03-11-2009, 01:52 PM
Listed here (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=2214) as 54000usd

I wonder if that is way back when? Sounds very cheap for the present.

b2spirita
03-11-2009, 02:17 PM
Yeah, thats the original cost.

TS_Sancho
03-11-2009, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
Our squad mate [^]Miss*Strega informed us that when she took off in a P-51 there were limits on the manifold pressure she can take the plane to. She was limited to 30" while the plane is ideal at 50" at 2700 rpm and most of the people in Il-2 I bet flies the P-51 at above 60" if not above 70" manifold pressure with 3000 rpm. She was restricted to this because it will damage the engine if she went higher than this limit and would have been asked to 'buy' a whole new Merlin engine.

These are just one of the limitations of classic warbirds today that we have. Doing actual dogfighting would have been impossible although the plane she said handled well even at 30" manifold pressure.

The original link is here with her talking about it:

http://deltachevron.com/forums...0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10 (http://deltachevron.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=236&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10)

Somebody should edit and sticky the above posters P51 comments. That is by far the best explanation of complex engine management as it relates to the game that I have read yet.

na85
03-11-2009, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Hookecho:
I bet that 30" limitation was because the plane had 90 octane fuel in it and they are concerned with detonation in the cylinders. Anything above 90 octane is now considered special interest fuel and is insanely expensive to buy and even Shell quit making it a few years ago. The guys at Reno IIRC have to IMPORT 100+ octane fuel for the races

still even at 30"....I'd wet myself to fly a 'Stang

Is aircraft fuel significantly different than automotive fuel? I put 94 octane in my car.

ElAurens
03-11-2009, 05:23 PM
When I flew aboard the Yankee Air Museum's "Yankee Warrior" B25, they used 40" of manifold for take off with 100 LL avgas, which is what's available at most US airports.

In photos I've seen of the pits at Reno, I see a lot of drums of VP brand automotive racing fuel.

WhiteKnight77
03-11-2009, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hookecho:
I bet that 30" limitation was because the plane had 90 octane fuel in it and they are concerned with detonation in the cylinders. Anything above 90 octane is now considered special interest fuel and is insanely expensive to buy and even Shell quit making it a few years ago. The guys at Reno IIRC have to IMPORT 100+ octane fuel for the races

still even at 30"....I'd wet myself to fly a 'Stang

Is aircraft fuel significantly different than automotive fuel? I put 94 octane in my car. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you put into your car is different than old school racing fuel and Avgas, lead. UNOCAL used to make 108 octane fuel with 4 grams of lead per gallon. Lead is an octane booster as well as a lubricant. Now racing fuel is lead free, just like what you put in your car.

Here is a good page on the differences between the 2: Racing Gasoline Verses Aviation Gasoline (http://www.osbornauto.com/racing/race2avgas.htm). Avgas 100/130 is comparable to UNOCAL 76 racing fuel from some 6 years or so ago.

sQb3k
03-15-2009, 04:52 PM
I saw something about this place a couple of years ago, but I can't remember what it was called. I think it was somewhere in Africa. Some guys had taken a couple WWII era planes and suped them up a little, mainly so people wouldn't stall out. They would take you up for an afternoon of dogfighting. You got to ride in the font seat and a real pilot would ride in the back seat with controls so you didn't kill anybody. They would take off and land, but once you got to altitude, they would let you fly the plane. And if you were about to mess up bad, they would just make a little adjustment in the back seat like the hand of God. I wanna say they had some sort of laser tag thing set up for the guns so you could keep score too. It looked really cool, but it was also really expensive. Wouldn't surprise me if they didn't stay in business very long. If I could ever find anything about it, I'll post a link.

edit: Well, I couldn't find the one I was looking for, but I did find a few others...

http://www.greatamericandays.c...&category=&finder=19 (http://www.greatamericandays.com/adventure.php?adventure_id=3&price=&category=&finder=19)
http://www.onedge.com.au/store....php?productid=16573 (http://www.onedge.com.au/store/product.php?productid=16573)
http://www.jetfighter.com.au/index.htm
http://www.austjetadv.com/main_page.html

Bearcat99
03-16-2009, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
Our squad mate [^]Miss*Strega informed us that when she took off in a P-51 there were limits on the manifold pressure she can take the plane to. She was limited to 30" while the plane is ideal at 50" at 2700 rpm and most of the people in Il-2 I bet flies the P-51 at above 60" if not above 70" manifold pressure with 3000 rpm. She was restricted to this because it will damage the engine if she went higher than this limit and would have been asked to 'buy' a whole new Merlin engine.

These are just one of the limitations of classic warbirds today that we have. Doing actual dogfighting would have been impossible although the plane she said handled well even at 30" manifold pressure.

The original link is here with her talking about it:

http://deltachevron.com/forums...0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10 (http://deltachevron.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=236&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10)

ROFLMAO.... I was on HL Saturday night and there was a raging debate on Miss Strega.. some were saying she was a he with issues...

I dond t know.... and I don't care... but I find it funny as all get out that people would think that a woman could not be a pilot and a flight sim junkie just like any man... That is such a hoot to me that folks can be that ..... ignernt..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

danjama
03-17-2009, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X32Wright:
Our squad mate [^]Miss*Strega informed us that when she took off in a P-51 there were limits on the manifold pressure she can take the plane to. She was limited to 30" while the plane is ideal at 50" at 2700 rpm and most of the people in Il-2 I bet flies the P-51 at above 60" if not above 70" manifold pressure with 3000 rpm. She was restricted to this because it will damage the engine if she went higher than this limit and would have been asked to 'buy' a whole new Merlin engine.

These are just one of the limitations of classic warbirds today that we have. Doing actual dogfighting would have been impossible although the plane she said handled well even at 30" manifold pressure.

The original link is here with her talking about it:

http://deltachevron.com/forums...0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10 (http://deltachevron.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=236&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10)

ROFLMAO.... I was on HL Saturday night and there was a raging debate on Miss Strega.. some were saying she was a he with issues...

I dond t know.... and I don't care... but I find it funny as all get out that people would think that a woman could not be a pilot and a flight sim junkie just like any man... That is such a hoot to me that folks can be that ..... ignernt..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree BC, that's ridiculous. Comparable to critics of the pioneering 99th PS/332nd Fg...

I should point out though, that someone has been PRETENDING to be MissStrega lately using a fake name. It's sort of tarnishing her name a bit. So be careful what you say to her....

I think the REAL missstrega has a [^] while the fake has a downward arrow. Or maybe its the other way around.

jayhall0315
03-17-2009, 01:17 PM
Yeah I have flown with the real Miss Strega several times and she is part of what I like to call the Dr Jekyll side of Delta Squadron. I have never spoken to her over Teamspeak but I will take Wright's word for it that she is indeed a lady. And a nice one at that.

Its no surprise to me that woman can and do fly well in Il2. All it takes is an afternoon of getting the sh!t kicked out of you by HD_Sarah to see that woman can fly very well indeed.

X32Wright
03-17-2009, 05:10 PM
DOnt forget B.O.P._Ladyhawk too and *****_Galore which are both good as well as KRAS which knows energy fighting and not to forget Olga she's very good as well. Go_Girl too is good.

Women are flying this sim, they just get bothred by the guys that's why they don't use gender-based names that often and those that do are very brave.

Miss Strega BTW has ben flying real planes and has been a bit conservative ib her flying because of that and that's understandable. She however given a chance would own most guys in a game specially now she has been exposed to many DF tactics. Yes she is a woman as well as Sarah Zoom ({HD}_Ser) because I have heard both on TS/VENT and talked to them at length.