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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 09:07 PM
S` All

I am very pleased with the overall game except for one very crucial aspect; the flight models. Most of these have been fixed with the patch and the planes can actually stall out and spin thank god. However, Bf-109K-4, FW-190A-9, La-7 3xBn, La-7, Bf-109G-6 A/S, Yak-3, Yak-9K, and Yak-9U to name most of them are all mods. By this I mean that they cannot be touched by the regular ol' planes of 1942-43 and lower years. ENERGY TACTICS DOES NOT EXIST IN THIS GAME WITH THESE PLANES. For instance, I'm flying a Hawker Hurricane MkIIc and i have 500-1000m altitude advantage over a say.. Yak-3 1944. I will circle above the Yak-3 and let him come up to me, where he will stall out, and i will then dive down and attack him right when he stalled out, that's energy tactics. The hurricane has more energy than the Yak-3 and therefore wins the fight. NOT! The Yak-3 1944 climbs up to my position, rolls out and gets level with me. there is nothing i can do, because this plane seems to have unlimited energy. The Yak-3 then proceeds to shoot me down. I'm very very sick of this. Happening time and time again. This is my only complaint and something has to be done, until then i don't allow those mod planes in my games. But, for the sake of the sim, my god fix this problem.

Lieutenant Hell's Angel 90 T of the 303rd Bombardment Group (H) "Hell's Angels"

Callsign: PirAnha
"Terror of the Skies"

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 09:07 PM
S` All

I am very pleased with the overall game except for one very crucial aspect; the flight models. Most of these have been fixed with the patch and the planes can actually stall out and spin thank god. However, Bf-109K-4, FW-190A-9, La-7 3xBn, La-7, Bf-109G-6 A/S, Yak-3, Yak-9K, and Yak-9U to name most of them are all mods. By this I mean that they cannot be touched by the regular ol' planes of 1942-43 and lower years. ENERGY TACTICS DOES NOT EXIST IN THIS GAME WITH THESE PLANES. For instance, I'm flying a Hawker Hurricane MkIIc and i have 500-1000m altitude advantage over a say.. Yak-3 1944. I will circle above the Yak-3 and let him come up to me, where he will stall out, and i will then dive down and attack him right when he stalled out, that's energy tactics. The hurricane has more energy than the Yak-3 and therefore wins the fight. NOT! The Yak-3 1944 climbs up to my position, rolls out and gets level with me. there is nothing i can do, because this plane seems to have unlimited energy. The Yak-3 then proceeds to shoot me down. I'm very very sick of this. Happening time and time again. This is my only complaint and something has to be done, until then i don't allow those mod planes in my games. But, for the sake of the sim, my god fix this problem.

Lieutenant Hell's Angel 90 T of the 303rd Bombardment Group (H) "Hell's Angels"

Callsign: PirAnha
"Terror of the Skies"

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:46 PM
Well, most everyone is happy with the newer fm's. Most everyone believes they are better representing each aircraft. Early planes against the later planes wouldnt be my first choice. Big improvements were made in them over the years. Not to be sarcastic or anything but if the same thing is happening over and over maybe you should try different tactics. Find the enemy planes weakness and exploit it.

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:49 PM
My point is, even with great altitude advantage with any of these 1943-1939 planes, the planes described in my previous post still managed to keep climbing and kill. I know what i'm doing, because i've been flying flight sims for over 2 years. These planes have what seems like unlimited energy and need to be re-evaluated.

Lieutenant Hell's Angel 90 T of the 303rd Bombardment Group (H) "Hell's Angels"

Callsign: PirAnha
"Terror of the Skies"

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:13 AM
-- I know what i'm doing, because i've been flying flight sims for over 2 years.

24 months

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Upgrade to a new plane type.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:23 AM
Yea, that's right 24months, and almost every day of those 24months, for many hours a day. Yea, i play too much, i know that.

Lieutenant Hell's Angel 90 T of the 303rd Bombardment Group (H) "Hell's Angels"

Callsign: PirAnha
"Terror of the Skies"

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:39 AM
*bah* I always sound like that when people advertise their "experience" on the internet.

Great idea though. I tried that out against AI (average)setting Hurri-IIc 2000m above Yak~3. In the Yak the high energy Hurri makes a difficult opponent but one that was dispatched eventually. Two tries at Hurri and both times the energy you get from 2000m you can keep till you pin the Yak against the sky and blow its wings off with two bursts.

You may not have a problem here. I dunno. I would wait for the Spitfire though. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


EDIT:: Don't let Yak "climb up to you." That is giving it time to equalize energy both kinetic and potential. You climb down to it and zoom away and come back.


ns = no spit



Message Edited on 08/18/0301:42AM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:44 AM
Let me see if i have this correct ...



- You start with an E advantage over a superior plane.

- Then, rather than B&Z him to exploit that advatage, you decide to deliberately WAIT and loose that E advantage by holding position while he gains E by climbing up to you.

- Unless the Yak pilot is an idiot and climbs at BEST ANGLE of Climb rather than BEST RATE of Climb it seems obvious he will frag you because you have jsut deliberately sacrificed all your E advantage.


The only way yor technique could work is aainst a dumb AI or noob human pilot that climbs at best angle and hence arrives at your altitude sitting on less than 250 kmh. if the Yak pilot climbs at a more sensible speed like 300 -350 kmh there is no way you can take him in an inferior plane once he gains altitude and you have lost that E advantage.

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:38 AM
Yes, i understand you completely, but that is not totally my way of playing the position. My point is, that the Yak will climb at a sharp angle and STILL get me no matter what. If he was climbing at the best angle, and i saw that, yes i would use my energy to B&Z him. But, the plane goes up so quickly, there's no time to turn my plane completely around and dive on him. He can just climb up on me and hit me like usual. You can't stop him.. only way to evade, is to dive down and lose your energy advantage. Another point is, these 1944 planes also have better turning radius and can't be outturned by a slower plane. Slower speed = shorter turning radius NOT IN THIS GAME.

Lieutenant Hell's Angel 90 T of the 303rd Bombardment Group (H) "Hell's Angels"

Callsign: PirAnha
"Terror of the Skies"

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:45 AM
The Yak 3 has always been a bit iffy, I'm still having some probs with the I-16 though. Is it still invulnerable from its six, it seems to be.

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:28 AM
H-ells-Angel-90 wrote:
- For instance, I'm flying a
- Hawker Hurricane MkIIc and i have 500-1000m altitude
- advantage over a say.. Yak-3 1944.

500-1000m is not enough altitude advantage.
Lets say your Hurricane cruises with 300km/h at 3000m and the Yak3 has 450km/h at 2000m. The yak goes into a climb and loses 150km/h to get to the 3000m. -> The Yak and the Hurricane is at 3000m with a speed of 300km/h. Now both planes keeps that altitude, but the Yak has a more powerfull engine and can still accelerate. The Yak gets closer to the Hurricane and hits it.

You have a better chance when the Hurricane dives down to the Yak:
In the dive the Hurricane gets a speed of 450km/h and can get behind the Yak3 and shoot. But now the same problem again: Same altitude and same speed, but the Hurricane will loose speed because their topseed is lower than the 450km/h after the dive.

Why does it not work? The Hurricane is a TnB fighter. It turns well but is extremly slow. Even in 1940 it was to slow for the Bf109E. If you take a fast early war plane like the Bf109F or maybe Mig3 your chances will be better.
Another point is teamwork. In a 1vs1 the chances are much smaller than in a 2vs1 or even a 2vs2.

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 09:56 AM
H-ells-Angel-90 wrote:
- My point is, even with great altitude advantage with
- any of these 1943-1939 planes, the planes described
- in my previous post still managed to keep climbing
- and kill.

Yeah, and rightly so. 1000 meters is really nothing for a plane with the exceptional climb rate of the 109 or the top speed of a 190. When the 190 runs along at 500 kmh, then no wonder can it zoom up to 3000 and still kill you. With the late 109s you can practically hang it on the prop, engange boost, and climb 1000 like in an elevator - that's what they were built for.

Your Hurri has two problems: It has a sucky Climbrate, and a sucky top speed. The former means you can not repeat what others do to you, the later means that at slow top speed you have very little kinetic energy in the plane - and since it's so light, that's even more of a problem.

So, to summarize, I dont see a problem with the thing you descripe. It is very much possiple - actually if that were me in the lower plane, I'd kill you during the climb, not even wasting time to get level with you.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 09:59 AM
To keep from saying things that people have already said on this thread, i will only comment on one of your so called "0 engergy tactics" planes.. to put it in my words.

For starters, i would like to know what it is that you think about the K-4 makes it have no energy tactics. Is it because it can outclimb a Hurricane? Is it because if you have a whopping 500-1000m of alt. on a K-4 in a Hurri of all things, the K-4 can catch up and rip you a new exhaust port?

The fact of the matter is, the K-4 is an Engery Tactics plane... EXCLUSIVELY... the only plane that matches it in neccesity for engergy tactics is the P-47. The K-4 is harder to fly now, than ever, and because of this.. has drawn away many people looking for the "easy" plane / kill... I think your first step would be 1) realising that the plane you fly is crap after '42. Then, move on to step 2) Realising that planes in 1944 / 45 WERE far superior to those in '42 / '43.

How can you feasibly be disapointed that your Hurricane can't out-E Fight a Yak-3? Do you know NOTHING of the Yak-3's low alttitude climb rate (assuming you do... it's quite excpetional). A Hurricane should NOT be able to defeat a Yak-3, unless the Hurri has a TnB combat w/ the Yak-3.... or the Yak pilot doesn't know what they're doing. On the same token... a Hurri should NEVER defeat a K-4, unless the K-4 decides for some reason or another, that having a TnB fight w/ a Hurri is a good idea, or if the K-4 is caught low for some reason, and the Hurri dives a bit to get speed.


Anyways, please get your facts straight... the K-4 is purely "Energy Tactics".

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:30 PM
Well, there is a simple rule to this. What do you expect flying out dated equipment? For a 41 or 42 to take out a 44 is the pilot not the machine. As for the 44 taking them out, it should be a given. Better planes, faster, armors imprvoed etc etc. You have to remember at the beginning of the the war most were still using bi-planes with the exception of a few.

So all the late models which ever side you fly on should do better then the early models if not i think its more the pilot and not the plane, nor game.

May you not become a dirt torpedo.

PlatinumDragon...

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:35 PM
1000m is not enough, try 3000m.

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:51 PM
I don't know why they bother.Must be some quest to be a super-ace.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:59 PM
You guys all have very valid points, maybe i did a bit of a screw up here. Not used to all the metric stuff being from cfs2.. which i know ppl hate ppl that come from cfs2, but that's beside the point. The point is, it has been more like 4,000- 8,000 m altitude advantage. You guys are right about the 1944 planes, and have swade me to actually fly them again. But, there's still an issue here about why these 1944 planes can just zoom up to me, then roll out of it, and tag me. The point of letting them come up to me, is to make them stall out before they get up to me, where then i proceed to fly down and get em. Also, if they were to fly at their "best" climb rate and maintain their speed, anyone would see that and then dive down at them b4, they got to u. I think the climb rates are a bit wrong for the 1944 planes, most of em.

Lieutenant Hell's Angel 90 T of the 303rd Bombardment Group (H) "Hell's Angels"

Callsign: PirAnha
"Terror of the Skies"

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 10:48 PM
-- The point of letting them come up to me, is to make them
-- stall out before they get up to me, where then i proceed
-- to fly down and get em.

No! AI will know enough not to stall out in their climb. Even against humanoid Yak pilots, every second you wait gives the Yak time to *equalize* its overall energy state with you. That means it is gaining height all the time at a constant speed while you are playing around. Also note I chose 2000m altitude advantage for my experiment, as I was thinking that maybe less than that is not enough given that AI detect you automatically at 7km and begin climbing immediately to meet you.

You may wish to try repeat your experiment identically but with the two planes switched positions. Also, try flying both of these expereriments in either aircraft. That is four (4) experiments all together.



....Also, you need to consider what altitude the experiment takes place at. (As usual I forgot to mention that I set the Yak at 2000m and Hurri at 4000m)



Message Edited on 08/18/0309:50PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 10:52 PM
Yea i know about the AI not going to stall out, but you'd be surprized on how many human pilots would go up and try to get me. As they lose energy, I would swoop down...

Lieutenant Hell's Angel 90 T of the 303rd Bombardment Group (H) "Hell's Angels"

Callsign: PirAnha
"Terror of the Skies"

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 11:06 PM
Hey your here!

You are evading our reasoning. *sigh*

Go down and eat them anyway. Every second you wait you lose your (rather small) altitude advantage as they climb up to you. Those Hurri machine guns are murder in a high speed pass.

In one of my experiments that you set me up with I blew both wings off that AI Yak~3 during the second pass. The Yak will most likely evade you the first pass almost head on but be gentle after the first pass and you can zoom up and turn around (gently) and you may get a better shot like I did.

Against humanoid simmers who knows but the idea is the same:: Don't wait for them to come up to you.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 12:25 AM
Anyone here remember Spitfire Ace or Hellcat Ace for the Commodore(sp?) 64?

Who made that game and when did it first come out?


Wow, that has to be almost 20 years ago.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 01:03 AM
Alright, i'll try that, although i like to avoid headons.. thx for your posts.

Lieutenant Hell's Angel 90 T of the 303rd Bombardment Group (H) "Hell's Angels"

Callsign: PirAnha
"Terror of the Skies"

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 03:16 AM
I use similar tactics to get many kills, but your doing a couple of things wrong, firstly ditch the Hurri for a G2 and secondly when the Yak or whatever starts to climb keep up a spiral climb yourself the second I see the underside flash at me I drop the wing kick the rudder and drop down on the enemy while his sit awareness is gone works most times unless I misjudge the energy of the opposition.

JG4_Tiger

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 08:30 AM
One suggestion Tiger:

You should dive down idealy, so that when you are in gunning range, he has just stalled / flipped over. It's hard to gauge when this will happen, but do-able if you get yourself in that situation against the same plane enough. The worst that can happen is a headon (and trust me, you'll have the advangtage in a headon where they are at the brink of stall.. obviously).

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 03:38 PM
Hey i fly Old ac all the time & beat new ac you need to revise your tactic

if your only 1000m above them & they climb up to you come in @ 2000 meters above them see what Im saying ??

Each & every fighter now has week & strong points

Earlier today I killed a Dora45 with a fwa5 I was very low like 900m & he started fight near 3000m after I make him miss on all his atempt too boom & zoom me he get frustrated & trys to get my 6 & turn with me but he has a lil too much speed so he overshoot a lil bit & had slow speed now I get his six & bamo

of corse having altitude is better than not having it but you can see in this case an Older lower plane beat a newer Higher plane

It takes time to learn be patient

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:40 PM
Energy is NOT altitude.

Energy is SPEED.

Altitude can be converted into energy, but it is not energy in and of itself. If you are in an early plane (low top speed) and above a late war plane (high top speed) then HE has the energy advantage NOT you. The only way for you to have an E advantage is to dive until your speed is over his top speed (why you need quite the altutude advantage), in which case your speed is now way over your own top speed, which means that your energy conversion rate and effiency will be way below his and you will very quickly lose your advantage.

You can fantasize about him losing all his E climbing up to get you all you want, but his engine power is so much greater than yours that he can climb well and not be much slower than you. Because he has the big engine he can afford to be a bit slower than you as he comes up as he will be able to accelerate (by leveling out, or better yet diving slightly) over your speed if you try to engage him during his climb.

If a near equal performance plane is above you and dives down after you, you should be climbing up (shallow climb to maintain speed), but if a low performance plane dives down on you you should dive yourself, because your top speed is so much higher than his you will reach a higher speed much quicker (energy transfer rate and efficiency again) and rapidly gain the advantage.

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 02:01 AM
Fillmore wrote:
- Energy is NOT altitude.
-
- Energy is SPEED.
-
- Altitude can be converted into energy, but it is not
- energy in and of itself. If you are in an early
- plane (low top speed) and above a late war plane
- (high top speed) then HE has the energy advantage
- NOT you. The only way for you to have an E
- advantage is to dive until your speed is over his
- top speed (why you need quite the altutude
- advantage), in which case your speed is now way over
- your own top speed, which means that your energy
- conversion rate and effiency will be way below his
- and you will very quickly lose your advantage.
-

Sorry, but this is total BS. OF COURSE, both speed and altitude are ENERGY! It's true though that ppl are often not aware that speed is also energy. In the example you describe above, both planes have a similar E status, they are about co-E. Neither has the advantage. However, when the upper guy dives on him and manages to excess the speed of the late war plane, then this indicates that he actually had an E advantage as he was above him (and still has). Total energy is potential energy + kinetic(al?) energy.

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-



Message Edited on 08/21/0301:36AM by Heart_C

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 02:57 AM
"Total energy is potential energy + kinetic(al?) energy."

This does not apply to airplanes because with airplanes in a dogfight the time factor is VERY important, and the energy conversion efficiency is variable. This is why energy conversion rate and energy transfer efficiency are so important in E fighting.

Energy = Mass X Velocity X Velocity.

Notice that altitude is NOT in that equation.

Notice the word "potential".

Potential means you havn't done it yet.

Potential Energy = *Not* Energy (yet) but might be in the future.

Total Energy is a concept to be applied to systems where time is not a significant factor, and where there are no variables that significantly affect conversion from potential energy to actual energy. A dogfight is not such a system, the energy transfers taking place in a dogfight are far too complex for Total Energy to have great meaning [not that it is meaningless, but you need to consider alot more than just E(t)=E+E(p)].

This article should get started understanding energy transfer rate and efficiency:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_015a.html

As the author says:

"The amazing thing is that in order to get to the best possible energy advantage for the fight, you start by diving!"

If you have an altitude advantage and don't dive then you have no E advantage. When the planes are far apart in performance *and as long as the lower plane has some room to dive* then the higher plane will lose no matter its altitude advantage at start.

It may help to understand the problem the slow plane has that is above the fast plane by looking at an extreme case, and that is where the maximum dive speed of the slow plane is lower than the maximum level speed of the fast plane. In this case the slow plane cannot ever have more E than the fast plane.

This is why the concept of total energy cannot be applied as simply E(t)=E+E(p), because there are aerodynamic limits to the abilities of the airplanes to convert their potential energy into real energy, you cannot simply add E(p) to E, because there is a maximum limit to E, as well as factors which affect how efficiently E(p) is converted to E.

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 03:21 AM
S` sir

Very inciteful, i understand what you are saying. I try to energy fight as best as i know it, because newbies don't know about this, and it's an advantage veteran players have, and i intend to keep that advantage. Let me say this though; i want to know if you think these fast 1944 planes that i've been describing... do you think they have a faster level speed than say a hurricane for example dive speed? As you said, if this is true, then there is definately something wrong with this game.

Lieutenant Hell's Angel 90 T of the 303rd Bombardment Group (H) "Hell's Angels"

Callsign: PirAnha
"Terror of the Skies"

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 04:53 AM
I have never flown a Hurricane after the patch. Before the patch I flew one on a 1942 server once and hated it (too slow. speed and firepower are my only concearns). Maximum level speeds of most 1944 planes are over 580kph at sea level. This should be below the max dive speed of a Hurricane, but I would expect the Hurricane to bleed E very rapidly at that kind of speed (not to mention stiff controls). If the enemy is well enough above sea level then you are in trouble, because he can gain more speed from the same loss of altitude / lose less altitude for the same speed gain.

In order to go faster than your max level speed you need to dive. Even if you can dive faster than his max level speed, he can dive too. Lets say his max level speed is 600 and yours is 500. You dive down on him at 700, he dives away at 700. You need to keep diving to stay above your level speed, and so does he, but for him 700 is only 100 (17%) faster than his max level speed, but for you 700 is 200 (40%) faster than your max level speed. You see why he doesn't have to dive as steeply as you to maintain the same speed? This is where time becomes a factor. How long can he keep this up before he either hits the ground or quits diving (and thus slows down so you can catch him). Since you have to dive at a higher rate to keep up with him you may reach the ground first even though you started above him. Even if he has to stop diving first, you still may not have enough altitude to work with to catch him (depends how far he is horizontally from you and how much altutude advantage you have left).

Also note that he can really pull some trick E conversion on you by diving faster than you and then climbing. You may dive steeply only to find your target diving steeply away and then zooming up to a higher altitude than you can reach.

My above example is just to illustrate the concept and is not meant to imply that those numbers are particularly relevant. Max level speed and how high speedwise or percentage wise isn't what matters, what matters are the relative speeds of best energy transfer. What those speeds are for the planes in the game I really don't know, but i'm pretty sure they are well higher than max level speed. One reason to fly one plane exclusively is because it takes time to get a feel for how it bleeds E at different speeds.

I use max level speeds in my examples because it is fair to assume that a plane with a much higher max level speed at a given altutude will have a higher speed of best energy transfer at that altitude.

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 05:03 PM
Fillmore wrote:
- "Total energy is potential energy + kinetic(al?)
- energy."
-
- This does not apply to airplanes because with
- airplanes in a dogfight the time factor is VERY
- important, and the energy conversion efficiency is
- variable. This is why energy conversion rate and
- energy transfer efficiency are so important in E
- fighting.
-
- Energy = Mass X Velocity X Velocity.
-
- Notice that altitude is NOT in that equation.
-
- Notice the word "potential".
-
- Potential means you havn't done it yet.
-
- Potential Energy = *Not* Energy (yet) but might be
- in the future.
-
- Total Energy is a concept to be applied to systems
- where time is not a significant factor, and where
- there are no variables that significantly affect
- conversion from potential energy to actual energy.
- A dogfight is not such a system, the energy
- transfers taking place in a dogfight are far too
- complex for Total Energy to have great meaning [not
- that it is meaningless, but you need to consider
- alot more than just E(t)=E+E(p)].
-
- This article should get started understanding energy
- transfer rate and efficiency:
-
- <a href="http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_015a.html"
- target=_blank>http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_015a.h
- tml</a>
-
-
- As the author says:
-
- "The amazing thing is that in order to get to the
- best possible energy advantage for the fight, you
- start by diving!"
-
- If you have an altitude advantage and don't dive
- then you have no E advantage. When the planes are
- far apart in performance *and as long as the lower
- plane has some room to dive* then the higher plane
- will lose no matter its altitude advantage at start.
-
- It may help to understand the problem the slow plane
- has that is above the fast plane by looking at an
- extreme case, and that is where the maximum dive
- speed of the slow plane is lower than the maximum
- level speed of the fast plane. In this case the
- slow plane cannot ever have more E than the fast
- plane.
-
- This is why the concept of total energy cannot be
- applied as simply E(t)=E+E(p), because there are
- aerodynamic limits to the abilities of the airplanes
- to convert their potential energy into real energy,
- you cannot simply add E(p) to E, because there is a
- maximum limit to E, as well as factors which affect
- how efficiently E(p) is converted to E.
-
-

Fillmore, the point is simple: When you say a faster plane which is below a slower plane has automaticly an energy advantage because it's faster, you are wrong. What would be if both planes have the same speed but one flies higher? Co-E? NO. A plane doing 300 mph on the deck has an energy advantage on a plane doing 250 mph 5km above? I understand that you are aware of energy laws, but your thermology is simply wrong. If you want to compare the E status of planes, you need to look at total E, not just kinetical E. You can continue with your thermology ("ignoring" pot. E. as long as it stays in that form), but let me tell you that all aircombat discussions would then be incompatible. And potential energy IS real energy. You can see the energy when you sit on the ground and have to look up to see an airplane. That's because of the potential energy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. And, for the fact alone that it is a law of physic - regardless for whatever object - that you can neither create nor destroy energy, but only TRANSFORM it (also into "invisible" forms for an aircombat-system, referred to by saying "bleeding E"), you have to acknowledge that potential energy is simply energy, and together with kinetical energy it is the total energy status. It works perfectly for planes.

Regards
heartc



Message Edited on 08/21/0304:35PM by Heart_C

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 05:07 PM
Heart_C wrote:
-
--
--
-- As the author says:
--
-- "The amazing thing is that in order to get to the
-- best possible energy advantage for the fight, you
-- start by diving!"
--

What the author means here is something else: You unload your plane in a zero-G dive to get the most efficient transformation from potential energy into kinetical energy for a powered plane.

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 06:19 PM
For some odd reason I could not edit my second upper post, so I will add here:

I think what you wanted to point out is the fact that a higher plane does not neccessarily have an energy advantage on a lower plane. But what you then actually look at is total energy, not just kinetical energy. The higher plane has more potential energy, but the lower plane might have enough kinetical energy to have more total energy than the upper guy has. How exactly the transformation process works and what variables (pilot input e.g.) are included is irrelevant, because it will take place in the future, not at the time you judge the E status of the planes. At time t(x) you compare total energy to judge who has the energy advantage. How efficient the planes/pilots are capable to transform the energy forms is a different matter. For example the higher plane might be such a poor diver or the pilot such an idiot for dropping the dive brakes that the potential energy he had gets transformed in a very inefficient manner, but this is not relevant for judging who has the initial E advantage.

Regards
heartc

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 10:38 PM
"What would be if both planes have the same speed but one flies higher? Co-E? NO."

YES.

"I think what you wanted to point out is the fact that a higher plane does not neccessarily have an energy advantage on a lower plane."

Exactly.

"but this is not relevant for judging who has the initial E advantage"

To say that a Fokker Dr.I triplane at 10000ft has an energy advantage over an Me262 at sea level is meaningful for a physisist talking abstractly about objects with velocity in space, but is not meaningful for an air combat pilot (it may or may not be meaningful depending upon the exact situation). Because the original post was about flying early war planes against late war planes you must modify how you evaluate E-states. That was the original posters problem was that he was overestimating his own E state, thinking that because he was above and at the same speed he had an E advantage, when in fact he didn't.

The judgement of who has the E advantage must take into account the performance of the respective planes. If you in your Hurricane MKI dive down from behind on a Bf109G2 and he is at sufficent altitude, then you are fooling yourself to think that you necessarily have an E advantage. Physisists comparing them in an abstract manner will say the total energy of the Hurricane is greater, but dogfights are not a general case abstraction, they are a special case scenerios.

"What the author means here is something else: You unload your plane in a zero-G dive to get the most efficient transformation from potential energy into kinetical energy for a powered plane."

That's the point, that is what E fighting IS. You gain an energy advantage by transforming your energy more efficiently than your opponent transforms his. We are not talking about abstractions of mass and velocity in space, we are talking about powered flight, and in particular combat involving powered flight.

And the author is saying more that just that, because it isn't just about getting to a certain energy state, but getting there as quickly as possible. Even if the other plane has the potential to transfor energy more efficiently than yours, you can still beat him if you can reach your most efficient energy transforming state before he can reach his.

Think about his example of two identical Co-E planes one behind the other. The one in back will catch up to the one in from by diving, then climbing (assuming they start at a low enough speed to begin). If the one in back dives first then he will catch even if the one in front dives later on. This is why you must dive into the merge. If I dive into the merge and climb after, and you climb into the merge and dive after, then you lose. Because I got to my best E state first, then the E transformations after that are to my advantage.

This is why Total Energy is not so useful for evaluating a dogfight. If I am fast and low then a plane which is slow and high may be at a disadvantage.

"When you say a faster plane which is below a slower plane has automaticly an energy advantage because it's faster, you are wrong."

I'm not saying it is automatic, I am saying it is possible, and far more likely than one would think who is thinking in terms of E(t) = E(k) + E(p). The faster plane has an automatic advantage in energy transfer efficiency. This is why I mentioned the possibility of him diving away and then climbing up higher than you can reach even though you started above him.

"And potential energy IS real energy"

NO. It has the *potential* to be real energy, but it isn't.

"you can neither create nor destroy energy, but only TRANSFORM it"

"acknowledge that potential energy is simply energy, and together with kinetical energy it is the total energy status. It works perfectly for planes."

No, it does not work perfectly for planes, because planes are limited in their ability to transform energy. Not that it doesn't work, mind you, but that it doesn't work perfectly. In the extreme case of Dr.I against Me262 it doesn't work at all, in the case of 1941 fighter against 1944 fighter it works only to a point. Potential energy works perfectly for balls on ramps and springs and such which have very low friction. With air to air combat we have friction as a significant factor, as well as self powered objects providing their own thrust.

Well enough rambling from me, I think you understand by now why I don't factor in E(p) by simply adding it to E(k). People who think that way are the kind of people who accuse others of hacking the game because they see planes doing things they don't think should be possible ("I was above him and climbing, he passed me from below head-on, and within a few seconds he had turned 180 degrees shot me from behind and flew past, he must have hacked the program" sort of thing).

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:02 AM
Altitude Is Potential Energy And will be converted to E unless some realy bad decisions are made.

Speed is Life and In my humble opinion is the single most important factor to the outcome of a dogfight in this sim

Speed, Control of Speed, Maintaining Speed Advantage

Altitude=Speed=Altitude

So before any dog fight

Get....

Altitude...

Convert it too Speed, Maintain Altitude Advantage, Maintain Speed Advantage, Be patient, dont be Greedy= Win The fight


Have A Speedy Day !!!

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:57 AM
Fillmore wrote:
- "What would be if both planes have the same speed
- but one flies higher? Co-E? NO."
-
- YES.
-
No. It's simply not true. It's not co-E.


- To say that a Fokker Dr.I triplane at 10000ft has an
- energy advantage over an Me262 at sea level is
- meaningful for a physisist talking abstractly about
- objects with velocity in space, but is not
- meaningful for an air combat pilot (it may or may
- not be meaningful depending upon the exact
- situation). Because the original post was about
- flying early war planes against late war planes you
- must modify how you evaluate E-states. That was the
- original posters problem was that he was
- overestimating his own E state, thinking that
- because he was above and at the same speed he had an
- E advantage, when in fact he didn't.

The point is, my evaluation system, which has been the evalutation system for air combat since the beginning, is perfectly able to show the guy that he is wrong when he thinks he neccassarily has an E advantage only because he is above him (he ignores kinetical energy, thus failing to evaluate the total energy). And your "it may or may not be meaningful depending upon the exact situation" after you just said it is not meaningful shows that your system which considers only kinetical energy is ill-suited.


- "What the author means here is something else: You
- unload your plane in a zero-G dive to get the most
- efficient transformation from potential energy into
- kinetical energy for a powered plane."
-
- That's the point, that is what E fighting IS. You
- gain an energy advantage by transforming your energy
- more efficiently than your opponent transforms his.
- We are not talking about abstractions of mass and
- velocity in space, we are talking about powered
- flight, and in particular combat involving powered
- flight.

Actually, we are talking past each other. You are talking about the transformation process, while I talk about E status. Of course Energy Maneuvering is about how you transform your energy with a given E status, which includes E(pot) and E(kin). Comparing the E status of two planes at a given time is not about that though.


- And the author is saying more that just that,
- because it isn't just about getting to a certain
- energy state, but getting there as quickly as
- possible. Even if the other plane has the potential
- to transfor energy more efficiently than yours, you
- can still beat him if you can reach your most
- efficient energy transforming state before he can
- reach his.

The point is, when the other plane has more total E than I have, I'm not going to catch him. I can transform my energy more efficient than he does, so that I gain an advantage, but then we are already in the transformation process which takes place in the future, but at a certain time t the comparison of the total E status is still valid.


-
- Think about his example of two identical Co-E planes
- one behind the other.

Actually, this is the only point I'm trying to argue with you. And you have to agree (and I believe you do) with the following:
Your example: Potential energy is equal, kinetical energy is equal - thus total energy is equal = co-E.

With one plane higher (No.2), at the same speed, it would be:
E1(pot)<E2[pot)
E1(kin)=E2(kin)

E1(pot)+E1(kin) < E2[pot)+E2[kin) --> No2 has more total energy = energy advantage.

What happens in the future is not relevant to that. No2 has an energy advantage NOW.


What happens later:

- The one in back will catch up
- to the one in from by diving, then climbing
- (assuming they start at a low enough speed to
- begin). If the one in back dives first then he will
- catch even if the one in front dives later on. This
- is why you must dive into the merge. If I dive into
- the merge and climb after, and you climb into the
- merge and dive after, then you lose. Because I got
- to my best E state first, then the E transformations
- after that are to my advantage.

...doesn't matter for the acessment of the E status at the start of the fight.

- This is why Total Energy is not so useful for
- evaluating a dogfight. If I am fast and low then a
- plane which is slow and high may be at a
- disadvantage.

Maybe, maybe not. And you know why you have to say "maybe"? Because your model does not consider total energy. I can say clearly say whether or not he has an E advantage. I do not say that he neccessarily holds it in the following fight. There are many variables playing into it of course.

- "When you say a faster plane which is below a slower
- plane has automaticly an energy advantage because
- it's faster, you are wrong."
-
- I'm not saying it is automatic, I am saying it is
- possible, and far more likely than one would think
- who is thinking in terms of E(t) = E(k) + E(p). The
- faster plane has an automatic advantage in energy
- transfer efficiency. This is why I mentioned the
- possibility of him diving away and then climbing up
- higher than you can reach even though you started
- above him.

It is possible. In the future. Because of better transformation and/or more horsepower. Of course the E status of the planes can change during a fight. But this is irrelevant to the E status at a certain time.

- "And potential energy IS real energy"
-
- NO. It has the *potential* to be real energy, but
- it isn't.

In your system. In my system I cannot destroy nor create energy, I can only transform it. So it is real energy. And I can see it by the fact that I have to look up at a plane flying at 5km.

- "you can neither create nor destroy energy, but only
- TRANSFORM it"
-
- "acknowledge that potential energy is simply energy,
- and together with kinetical energy it is the total
- energy status. It works perfectly for planes."
-
- No, it does not work perfectly for planes, because
- planes are limited in their ability to transform
- energy. Not that it doesn't work, mind you, but
- that it doesn't work perfectly.

Now, does it work or not? What I said was it works perfectly for a given time. I did not say it works perfectly to find out how energy will evolve (=be transformed). But each time you "stop" the fight and access the E status, you can perfectly compare them by considering total energy.

- Well enough rambling from me, I think you understand
- by now why I don't factor in E(p) by simply adding
- it to E(k).

I think I understand why. It's because you focus on the transformation process (while I'm talking about E status), but then - and this is the whole point I'm trying to make - it's still wrong when you say you can't compare the E status of two planes at a given time as long as they are not in the same form of energy. You can. It's the same for a ball, a hot air-baloon, or whatever. Only the transformation process is different. A powered plane might "bleed" energy by transforming it into "useless" forms, or he might "gain" energy by a more efficient transformation or a more powerfull engine.


- People who think that way are the kind
- of people who accuse others of hacking the game
- because they see planes doing things they don't
- think should be possible ("I was above him and
- climbing, he passed me from below head-on, and
- within a few seconds he had turned 180 degrees shot
- me from behind and flew past, he must have hacked
- the program" sort of thing).

Actually, the people you describe here are those who ignore kinetical energy and only think in terms of altitude, potential energy. If they would really think in terms of total energy, they would be right. Total energy when I'm above him, total energy after I dove down on his altitude, total energy when I dove below him and pull up for a dead six shot, etc. In your thermology, the faster plane would always have the E advantage - or maybe, maybe not /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

Regards
heartc








=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:06 AM
LOL, what the heck is it with this board? I again cannot edit my post because of an "error in the database" or something. This is the worst forum I ever ran across on the internet...

The formula I made in the middle of the post is far from what I have typed (probably you had a good laugh /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ), looks like it doesn't accept the "smaller/bigger" sign - or maybe it's because I'm on a German keyboard - I dunno.

So, I will do it with words:

- With one plane higher (No.2), at the same speed, it
- would be:
- E1(pot) is smaller than E2(pot)
- E1(kin) is equal to E2(kin)
-
- E1(pot)+E1(kin) is smaller than E2(pot)+E2(kin) --> No2 -- has more total energy = energy advantage.
-
- What happens in the future is not relevant to that.
- No2 has an energy advantage NOW.
-




=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:12 AM
Hm, seems like there needs to be a space left and right from the " < " sign or otherwise the forum doesn't display it and delets the follow up letters. Weird.

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:10 AM
"it's still wrong when you say you can't compare the E status of two planes at a given time as long as they are not in the same form of energy. You can."

Well, you can, but I think our real disagreement is how useful that is in the situation this post is about (i.e. planes of significantly unequal performance). The problem isn't that people don't factor in KE (note that when I refer to "faster plane" what I am really signifying is not a plane with more speed so much as a plane which transforms its energy most efficiently at a higher speed), it is that they factor in their potential E without lowering its value based on their planes inferior high speed energy transformation characteristsics. Furthermore they fail to take into consideration the time factor. Time (note that seperation=time) is what allows the 1944 plane to start lower *and* slower than the 1941 plane and yet still win the fight. These aren't steel balls on frictionless ramps, conservation of mechanical energy does not apply.

"The point is, when the other plane has more total E than I have, I'm not going to catch him."

The static model of total energy at time (t) is only useful for similar planes at similar velocities. That is a fairly trivial case. Even with identical performing planes you can have a high slow one and a low fast one, and comparing each ones total energy is not all there is to it. Even though they are identical planes their energy transformation isn't identical, because they are at different speeds and altitudes.

E1(pot)<E2[pot)
E1(kin)>E2(kin)
E1(pot)+E1(kin)<E2[pot)+E2[kin)

does not tell you that E1 will not catch E2. In fact if we change the last equation to

E1(pot)+E1(kin)=E2(pot)+E2(kin)

and E1 and E2 are indentical planes then E1 will catch E2 so long as E1 isn't above its best energy transfer speed.

I suppose what you are really asking is that I change my terminology away from "energy" and "energy advanatage" and to something like "energy transformation advantage sufficient to overcome difference in total energy within the timeframe of a dogfight". But few people who post here and ask questions use these words in their technical sense, so I see no problem. When I say energy is speed and only speed, altitude has the potential to become speed but isn't speed yet, then I feel it gets people thinking in the right direction as far as doing well in dogfights. If you think planes are like steel balls on frictionless ramps then you will get pwnz0r3d. If you discount the importance of altitude and focus more on speed (not just in your own flying but in your evaluation of the relative threat levels of enemy planes) then you will do much better.