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View Full Version : Snap Rolls. How do you do them?



XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:49 PM
Ive been trying but the controls are not very responsive? Should i change my stick settings? which is a good setting for this?



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So he tells me, "I ban the Me262 cause its turn rate is over modeled and it dosnt stall"... Then he takes off from his base in a Hurricane.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:49 PM
Ive been trying but the controls are not very responsive? Should i change my stick settings? which is a good setting for this?



P4-2.4Gig
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SoyoDragon Ulrtra Mobo
8X AGP Slot
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DVDRom-Drive
SB-Live 5.1
DX-9.0
XP-PRO
So he tells me, "I ban the Me262 cause its turn rate is over modeled and it dosnt stall"... Then he takes off from his base in a Hurricane.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:52 PM
when you calibrate your joystick instead of going to the extreme edges calibrate it in a smaller circle, and you will be able to turn on a dime.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:01 PM
WW2 planes do crummy snap rolls. Not enough control surface authority.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:06 PM
Snap rolls - cannot be done correctly with current FM. Wait for the patch and hope.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:07 PM
I prefer California rolls, especially when they put those little orange fish eggs on them that snap when you bite them.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:22 PM
Nah.... goi cuon (Viet spring rolls) are way better than that pseudo-suchi stuff. Spring rolls are almost as good as peaches.

1 package clear edible rice paper
1 kg cooked chicken
1 big bunch of fresh cilantro
1 big bunch of fresh mint
1 cup of bean sprouts
1 head of green leafy lettuce, separated into leaves
1 cucumber, peeled and sliced into thin strips
1 package of bun noodles (pho, chow fun, or any rice noodle will do in a pinch)
0.5 kg of steamed peeled shrimp

1) prepare all meats and noodles separately. rinse and set aside at room temperature. clean and dry all the vegetables.

2) dip one sheet of rice paper into water for just a moment to get it wet, then lay out out flat

3) fill with noodles, chicken, shrimp, cilantro, mint, cucumber and sprouts. do not stuff it too full.

4) roll it up like an eggroll and set it aside. no further cooking required. rolls will be larger than standard chinese style egg rolls.

5) serve immediately with nuoc mam and peanut sauce

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:37 PM
I fly full scale and aerobatics in full scale. Heres how to do a inside snape roll(simplified explination for gameing purposes):

full right aileron
full right rudder
full up elevator

Hold these control inputs in for 1 second for start. Adjust timing as needed(due to different characteristics of aircrafts).Do not do at high speed try half throttle around 150 mph.


Outside snap roll:

full right aileron
full right rudder
full down elevator

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:41 PM
I think he wants to know why the planes don't do good snap rolls.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:41 PM
I've had to many badly prepared spring rolls to ever try them again unfortunately.

Last time I was out for sushi the special was a salmon roll that was tempura'd...out fricking standing!

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:46 PM
A snap roll is in effect an accellerated spin whose axis is along that of your current flight direction. Because of this the entry is the same other than the higher entry speed and the faster control inputs. While I agree that the FM in FB is a giant leap backwards from IL-2, the snap roll is still do-able (though not in all planes). Try the Bf-109, Fw-190, P-39 etc and they are all more than capable of fairly nice snaps (though the P-39 may carry them farther and farther towards an unrecoverable spin state). To enter the maneuver you must be at a proper entry speed in the sim, too slow and the plane will mush along, too fast and it simply ignores you, 250-400 is the envelope, so aim for about 350 on the entry. All you need to do is abruptly apply full rudder in the direction that you want to snap, and full up elevator. . . you will need to be able to get max deflection out of each of these controls pretty much immediately to snap it. You can simply hold these inputs for a few seconds, and then do just the opposite, push rudder all the way to the other stop, and push the stick full forward to recover. Use no ailerons.

With rare exception I have not been able to do outside snap rolls (pushing forward on the stick to initiate), and I have not done them at all in FB.
Also keep in mind that decceleration is rapid in the sim, so the snaps soon become a spin.

Have fun!


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Message Edited on 06/23/0312:48PM by TX-EcoDragon

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:48 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
IV_JG51_Theo wrote:
- Nah.... goi cuon (Viet spring rolls) are way better
- than that pseudo-suchi stuff. Spring rolls are
- almost as good as peaches.
-
- 1 package clear edible rice paper
- 1 kg cooked chicken
- 1 big bunch of fresh cilantro
- 1 big bunch of fresh mint
- 1 cup of bean sprouts
- 1 head of green leafy lettuce, separated into leaves
- 1 cucumber, peeled and sliced into thin strips
- 1 package of bun noodles (pho, chow fun, or any rice
- noodle will do in a pinch)
- 0.5 kg of steamed peeled shrimp
-
- 1) prepare all meats and noodles separately. rinse
- and set aside at room temperature. clean and dry all
- the vegetables.
-
- 2) dip one sheet of rice paper into water for just a
- moment to get it wet, then lay out out flat
-
- 3) fill with noodles, chicken, shrimp, cilantro,
- mint, cucumber and sprouts. do not stuff it too
- full.
-
- 4) roll it up like an eggroll and set it aside. no
- further cooking required. rolls will be larger than
- standard chinese style egg rolls.
-
- 5) serve immediately with nuoc mam and peanut sauce
-
-



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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:49 PM
Part of the problem is that military aircraft are not meant to do aerobatics like an Extra or Sukhoi. Also, the current FM is a little off.

The key to modelling a good SNAP roll in a sim is good modelling of transient airflow. Your AoA changes so rapidly that the air's inertia won't let it stick to the wing, so you get a sharp temporary stall.

To perform one in real life, you need to get a feel for how MUCH and how FAST to pull or push the stick. The control stick will generally move in a C-shaped path. Ailerons first (with rudder in the same direction), then a fast but controlled elevator input, then back to neutral once the snap takes place. If it doesn't snap as soon as you make the inputs, it's not a snap roll.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:01 PM
Many aircraft aren't mean to, but nearly all will, other than something like a Lancair Columbia, a Long Ez or a Cirrus. . .andything that can do an accelerated stall at a reasonable speed, and has some rudder authority will snap. I have snapped many modern aerobatics aircraft, but I have also snapped 152's, and PT-17's and while many aerobatic aircraft are "more capable" and designed to snap, the manuver is always more or less the same violent and fun fun series of gyrations.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:47 PM
Aircraft that do the best snap rolls and will enter them willingly have a midwing configuration with balanced CoG and mass. Military examples of WW2 would be

Brewster Buffalo
Grumman Wildcat
Grumman Hellcat

The Extra 300 is akin and one of the best aerobatic monoplane performers out there.

I do remember a comment a Wildcat pilot gave on Discovery Wings once when they where doing a special on the great battle of the pacific.

This is in prose as I'm remembering it and not copying it. I will write as much as I can remember of the conversation.

Pilot

"The Brewster was a bad aircraft (F2A-3 Marines had on Midway). There is an instrument that has a ball in it called the slip indicator, your suppose to keep the ball in the center during level flight and turns so the tail doesn't slip. The only time I ever saw the ball in the center on that aircraft was when it was going from one side to the other.

...

I liked the Wildcat, it was a good plane. Nimble for its ruggedness and had good guns. I remember the first time I took one up for training and thought I'd do a single snap roll to see what it could do. I tugged on the stick and stepped on the rudder and before I could think I had done 5 complete rolls before I stopped it... I didn't do any more snap rolls in that aircraft."

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:50 PM
TX-EcoDragon wrote:
- Many aircraft aren't mean to, but nearly all will,
- other than something like a Lancair Columbia, a Long
- Ez or a Cirrus. . .andything that can do an
- accelerated stall at a reasonable speed, and has
- some rudder authority will snap. I have snapped many
- modern aerobatics aircraft, but I have also snapped
- 152's, and PT-17's and while many aerobatic aircraft
- are "more capable" and designed to snap, the manuver
- is always more or less the same violent and fun fun
- series of gyrations.
-
-

Surprised you got a full snap out of a C-152, its high wing and wing shape have turned every snap roll or roll attempt I've ever seen done in it into a sluggish barrell roll once past the 90 degree bank. Cessnas don't like going upside down much at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:04 PM
I was about to post a question concerning a 'trick' I found in the P-40. Maybe its a snap roll?

The trick:

Slight dive to pick up speed.
Yank the crap out of the stick (pull back).
Immediately recenter stick and get ready to roll back to level flight.

Its wierd, but it sort of stalls, but sort of doesnt because the plane still as momentum. External view of the plane looks REALLY cool /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Is this a snap roll, or something else? Its very easy to do at combat speeds in a P-40.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:19 PM
I find that to get the fwA5 to snap easily... when bandit is on your six and you sense a firing solution is iminent (sp?)... first close throttle then immediately full up elavator and wait a split sec to see which way it wants to snap then go full rudder/aileron in same direction. Be prepared it happens that quick. Wait for overshoot then release stik/pedals to neutral and roll out opposite to spin. I have excellent results using this technique.

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 04:05 PM
Almost sounds like a hammerhead manoeuvre... which reminds me, the manual of Il2 has a better mentioning of manoeuvres then in FB.

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michapma
06-24-2003, 04:17 PM
The old maneuvers are in the PDF in the AdvancedPDFmanual.pdf in the MANUAL folder, I forget whether it's CD 1 or CD 2. If you haven't checked out that document, it's a good one to look at&mdash;there are specs and comments on the various aircraft.

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="left" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 11:40 PM
michapma wrote:
- The old maneuvers are in the PDF in the
- AdvancedPDFmanual.pdf in the MANUAL folder, I forget
- whether it's CD 1 or CD 2. If you haven't checked
- out that document, it's a good one to look
- at-there are specs and comments on the various
- aircraft.


Actually I haven't! (its CD 2 btw). Well now I have, but at the time you posted it I didn't. Its really a shame it didn't get out in print tho. I'll be printing out the specs for those planes. Was a very interesting read!

Though I still do not quite understand what that other document is about, concerning speed and altitude. What is it use?

ps: Ubi seems to have disabled the use if scr!pts again :\ I wish they would stop messing with it. Either have it on or off, but not this: O, no I have no idea what to do today. Lets flip a coin. Alright today its off. What shall we do tomorrow? flip another coin! Oh tomorrow its on again.

*annoyed*

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Message Edited on 06/25/0312:42AM by Miss-Kitten

michapma
06-25-2003, 01:07 PM
The chart is a IAS/TAS converter for altitude. IAS is indicated airspeed and TAS is true airspeed. The airspeed indicator doesn't compensate for air density, so at higher altitudes the IAS and TAS is larger. The table helps you know what the true airspeed is.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="left" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 05:51 PM
Ah, so that's what I need to put in when having a bomber mission!

I was trying to use the gauges instead of the indicators in the bottom left corners ... found that kind of difficult to do. Some planes have easier to understand gauges/dials, then others. speed and direction isn't that big of a problem, but getting the altitude right is ... its something that kind of hits me when I'm on a server where the speed indicator is on off...


any help to read those instruments would be appreciated.

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