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Charlie901
10-30-2004, 11:08 PM
First of all I really like PF and the IL2 series as a whole, but I am a little concearned for my favorite hobby; playing Combat Flight Sims.

I feel that in order to keep our hobby going we need to recruit more younger people to the joy that can be found in the IL2 series, and many other Flight Sims like it.

However, I know that Ubi probably is to blame for this, but PF is totally incomplete for a newbie who doesn't own the FB or AEP games already. If you are going to produce PF as a stand alone game option to encourage new players you need to release a more complete product.

I can picture many potential new simmers getting totally frustrated by the fact that the A/C won't roll off the fight deck because they forgot to map the "Chocks" key. Also add the lack of many single player missions and a FUBARed Dynamic Campaign and you have a recipe for disaster. I know that you can create an infinate amout of missions in the FMB but how many newbies are going to want to try to attempt this? Maybe these ommissions will bore first timers who will give up with the complexity of the FMB before they realize what a jewel this game can be.

I'm glad Best Buy is has stepped up to the plate and I hope PF sells really well for them. However, saying that your never shopping at EB or Gamestop just adds to there marketing strategy that PC sims don't sell well enough to carry. Maybe if more of us purchased from these stores they would realize that PC CFS's can sell well also. Until then every inquiry or lecture regarding PF, to a pimply faced employee is a victory toward spreading our hobby to the masses. Long live PF! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Charlie901
10-30-2004, 11:08 PM
First of all I really like PF and the IL2 series as a whole, but I am a little concearned for my favorite hobby; playing Combat Flight Sims.

I feel that in order to keep our hobby going we need to recruit more younger people to the joy that can be found in the IL2 series, and many other Flight Sims like it.

However, I know that Ubi probably is to blame for this, but PF is totally incomplete for a newbie who doesn't own the FB or AEP games already. If you are going to produce PF as a stand alone game option to encourage new players you need to release a more complete product.

I can picture many potential new simmers getting totally frustrated by the fact that the A/C won't roll off the fight deck because they forgot to map the "Chocks" key. Also add the lack of many single player missions and a FUBARed Dynamic Campaign and you have a recipe for disaster. I know that you can create an infinate amout of missions in the FMB but how many newbies are going to want to try to attempt this? Maybe these ommissions will bore first timers who will give up with the complexity of the FMB before they realize what a jewel this game can be.

I'm glad Best Buy is has stepped up to the plate and I hope PF sells really well for them. However, saying that your never shopping at EB or Gamestop just adds to there marketing strategy that PC sims don't sell well enough to carry. Maybe if more of us purchased from these stores they would realize that PC CFS's can sell well also. Until then every inquiry or lecture regarding PF, to a pimply faced employee is a victory toward spreading our hobby to the masses. Long live PF! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WOLFMondo
10-31-2004, 02:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie901:
I can picture many potential new simmers getting totally frustrated by the fact that the A/C won't roll off the fight deck because they forgot to map the "Chocks" key. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RTFM? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There is that sheet in the box with all the buttons on it. Theres only so much they can do to get people to check there controls. Its a flight sim, not a game like and FPS where you have standard mapped buttons. Its kind of expected people will need to check out there keys, especially if they have a prefered setup for flight sims.

RocketDog
10-31-2004, 02:26 AM
Is the release of incomplete Combat Flight Sims ruining our genre...?


No.


Regards,

RocketDog.

Barred
10-31-2004, 03:34 AM
Is the release of incomplete Combat Flight Sims ruining our genre...?

Nope but the whining is

EURO_Snoopy
10-31-2004, 04:14 AM
Just how long do you think we would have to wait for a 'complete' flight sim?

Look at the efforts of Microsoft and their CFS series. Three sims, all buggy and incomplete at release. The first never patched and the third patched once then forgotten. Microsoft have the $$$$ to get the thing right and failed each attempt.

Show me one other complete game in this genre.

Compare this to Maddox1C's history of patches and free game enhancements. They actually listen to the communities complaints and requests and as a result we are close to having a complete sim now, closer than any of the competition. All built from a game which initially was only intended for ground pounding and have two flyable aircraft.

Sorry for the rant, not having a go at the original poster. But I am tired of the whining that goes on in these forums and just had to say something.

RevvinUK
10-31-2004, 04:33 AM
I think Pacific Fighters was complete enough for the new flight sim player. Pacific Fighters and the rest of the IL-2 series has done well to cater for the hardcore sim fan and the beginner with a range of features that can be enabled or disabled to suit the players needs. I will agree that certain commands should have been mapped by default though, the chocks and arrestor hook being two that spring to mind but on the whole I think 1C:Maddox are doing the genre justice with their sims and their continued support long after the product has hit the shelves is an example to all developers.

matthewlue
10-31-2004, 04:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

RTFM? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There is that sheet in the box with all the buttons on it. Theres only so much they can do to get people to check there controls. Its a flight sim, not a game like and FPS where you have standard mapped buttons. Its kind of expected people will need to check out there keys, especially if they have a prefered setup for flight sims. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

as a simple fact ------- most newbie will NOT & will NOT wish ot read manual or even read quick reference card. They prefer "install & play". So, I would say, IL2 series & PF is not very suitable for people who just want to HAVE FUN and DONT will to do anything more than that~

Last thing: this is a SIMULATOR, not Arcade Game ( there is arcade mode though ).

oFZo
10-31-2004, 04:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by matthewlue:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

RTFM? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There is that sheet in the box with all the buttons on it. Theres only so much they can do to get people to check there controls. Its a flight sim, not a game like and FPS where you have standard mapped buttons. Its kind of expected people will need to check out there keys, especially if they have a prefered setup for flight sims. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

as a simple fact ------- most newbie will NOT & will NOT wish ot read manual or even read quick reference card. They prefer "install & play". So, I would say, IL2 series & PF is not very suitable for people who just want to HAVE FUN and DONT will to do anything more than that~

Last thing: this is a SIMULATOR, not Arcade Game ( there is arcade mode though ). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The IL2 series is very suitable for people who just want to have fun. It's just the type of fun that requires some more thinking than most console games. I prefer more "complicated" fun.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
10-31-2004, 05:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EURO_Snoopy:
Just how long do you think we would have to wait for a 'complete' flight sim?

Look at the efforts of Microsoft and their CFS series. Three sims, all buggy and incomplete at release. The first never patched and the third patched once then forgotten. Microsoft have the $$$$ to get the thing right and failed each attempt.

Show me one other complete game in this genre.

Compare this to Maddox1C's history of patches and free game enhancements. They actually listen to the communities complaints and requests and as a result we are close to having a complete sim now, closer than any of the competition. All built from a game which initially was only intended for ground pounding and have two flyable aircraft.

Sorry for the rant, not having a go at the original poster. But I am tired of the whining that goes on in these forums and just had to say something. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right..but Il-2 is a victim of it's own success. Oleg always set the bar high and we get upset if it's not right. While I whine, I do feel sorry for 1C because no matter what they do, they will never please everyone.

Cheers,
Norris

Barred
10-31-2004, 05:29 AM
I think that a big part of the problem of dissapearing sims is that, these days as computer games become more a main stream form of entertainment, more and more people just want to plug and go.

Granted this plug and go attitude is well suited and catered for by consoles, but there are a good few (majority) that want the same but with higher graphics, sound ect so go the computer route. So game publishers (like TV stations) cater for the "I want instant gatification and I want it now with no effort on my part" crowed.

All the time that garanteed sales of simple, pretty, install and go games are in the majority then due to the cost of developement, those are the games that will be pumped out as fast as can be, to cater for the short attention span, instant gratification mind set.

The hay day for flight sims was when the majority were happy to tinker with settings both ingame and on their systems. Unfortunatly we/they are a dying breed so there is little reason for publishers or developers to cater for us.

That is why I believe companies like 1C, and UBI (even if you do not like them) deserve the support from us, or we will lose even them.
Constructive critism is great but just whining will push them away.

JG51Beolke
10-31-2004, 05:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barred:
Is the release of incomplete Combat Flight Sims ruining our genre...?

Nope but the whining is <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What Barred said !!!!

Dude, this game Rocks. Have you ever played anyother game of the Pacific with graphics and features such as Pacific Fighters. Just remember, Oleg supports his products and rest assured, there will be add-ons and patches but for now, just enjoy this awsome game. Go try and land on a Carrier and try not to be amazed!!!

Nubarus
10-31-2004, 05:57 AM
Always the same complaints from people who don't read the manual and the readme.

I have seen plenty of posts over the years with the same questions and same remarks about stuff that is in the manual and the readme file.

So, RTFM and RTFRM BEFORE complaining.

As for the FUBARed DGEN, there already is a new one you can download. (Imagine that, so soon after release, with many games you have to wait months before the first patch comes out and on some there is no patch at all because they already have your money so why bother to fix or add anything?

It's not often you have a developer that listens to the public and tries to satify them after game release with patches with bugfixes and even add free stuff in them.

Continue this whining and pretty soon 1C Maddox will go on the same road as for instance M$ Games department and just take your money and don't give a rats @$$ about you after you spend your money.

Luftkillier
10-31-2004, 06:02 AM
Flight sims are fine as long as they have the level of detail and commitment that this product does. Gripes, whines, mini gripes etc.. will always be there and so will flight sims. I like that fact that we don't have 3 WWII ETO flight sims, instead we have Oleg and FB+AEP+PF, I am happy with that.

You nice? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

ThunderThor
10-31-2004, 06:12 AM
As for the youth vote. My 12 year old son likes the thought of flying. But I have to take off the plane for him. Also he spins alot and crashes. After a few times he's off to play console games.

Perhaps if you want the young 12-20 to play flight sims they should have mods with Jack and Dexter stickers or characters. Perhaps you could hop out on the wing and shoot the planes flying at you on autopilot. Or better yet as you parachute out you have a gun and can shoot planes down as you fall to earth?


Yound adults wont play this period.

Secondly as the guy at EB said it looks nice but.
Secondly why should I pay $500 for a video card, to play a $40 game like LOMAC OR PF OR ANYTHING ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Fresshness
10-31-2004, 06:22 AM
It's about respect for the customer. I think the following is inexusable and untoleratable as a business strategy:

"Hey, PF is too big for 2 cd's, but we aren't going to release it on 3 cd's. We release it on 2 cd's and you have to download the rest yourself at your costs". ... "Oh and btw; the rest isn't finished yet, so be patient..... can I have your money now?"

effte
10-31-2004, 06:27 AM
Yes, most of the glitches are minor. Yes, most of them are cosmetic in nature.

Don't you see that this is both the perplexing and the problematic thing about them?

Perplexing, since many of them are there and would have been easy to fix. How many people out there never even get started on flying off carriers since they never get over the many small hurdles towards seeing the potential? Mapping keys, figuring out how it is supposed to be done, figuring out which loadouts are possible?

The glitches are cosmetic. But imagine buying a car unseen. The best handling car out there, with exceptional performance. But when it arrives, you find that the paintwork is scratched and you're never able to get all cylinders to fire since that requires connecting a wire under the instrument panel, something which you never learn event though it is discussed at length in an enthusiast forum online.

Would you order the next car from the same manufacturer/seller?

If a large part of the customers never see the potential, do you think they will buy the next in the series? Perhaps, and I'll probably get flamed for this by a certain sub-minority of the forum members which we all know too well, just perhaps there are other reasons for the dwindling sales in addition to piracy? Shouldn't the possibility at least be considered, before selecting the easy answer which requires no fixing or accepting of part of the blame?

Those who participate here are way above the level of most of the customer base. We are prepared to jump through a hoop or eight to get what we want out of the product, we know where to find the information and we are prepared to go through the work of finding it.

We are the exceptions, not the norm.

So, why not drop one model of one aircraft and use those resources get the packaging right? Sort out the interface, make sure the keymappings are there, make a quickstart guide. It would add immensely to the accessibility.

diabloblanco1
10-31-2004, 06:49 AM
<span class="ev_code_RED">The sky is falling the sky is falling</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Nubarus
10-31-2004, 06:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fresshness:
It's about respect for the customer. I think the following is inexusable and untoleratable as a business strategy:

"Hey, PF is too big for 2 cd's, but we aren't going to release it on 3 cd's. We release it on 2 cd's and you have to download the rest yourself at your costs". ... "Oh and btw; the rest isn't finished yet, so be patient..... can I have your money now?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still better then what M$ does.

"Hey, CFS series games are **** but you have to download a holy cr@pload of mods to make it complete, yes our CFS series games are twice the price of a normal game but hey, you get to fiddle around with all those mods, isn't that just great fun or what? Yes, yes, we will take good care of your money.....SUCKER!!!"

On top of that their games stay at the high price for god knows how long, just a few months ago did the price of CFS3 drop to a level where it might be worth to buy it if you like to fiddle around with a huge amount of mods and tweak tools.
Compared to the Forgotten Battles that is on sale for 4,95 Euro's and CFS3 still costs 14,95 Euro's. (And since it's actually advertised that CFS3 is not sale at that store it might only be cheaper because they still got a load of them lying around and hope to sell them)

A few years ago I bought Starlancer, pretty funny game but it had some bugs in it that desperately needed fixing.
But no, M$ didn't make a patch, instead they told the community to make mods in order to camoflage the bugs.

Never ever will I buy a game released by M$ ever in my life.

GT182
10-31-2004, 07:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>by Charlie901:
Is the release of incomplete Combat Flight Sims ruining our genre...? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope, not at all.

Here's my take on it all... mind you I'm just and old f*rt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Oleg knew it wasn't "complete" when he posted that there were only 2 cds and they didn't include the 3rd cd in the package. But, he also stated the upcoming Patch would include what was supposed to be on the 3rd cd. That should fix things for a bit untill the next patches come out. I imagine there will be a few more if only for flyable a/c like the Catalina Gibbage is working on and others.... TBM, and possibly the B17.

The only thing holding back Combat Flight Sims for our genre is companies catering to console games. That's where they figure the money is... the "young crowd" with XBox, PS2 and the like. EB, being a seller for them, and their attitude towards us PC flight simmers, is a testament to that. Also look a what Atari and Microsoft are doing....the same thing, console games. PC games for flight simmers just don't cut it with any of them anymore. At least we have Oleg and 1C to keep it all alive for us, he's doing the best he can and we need to appreciate that more.

Fresshness
10-31-2004, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nubarus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fresshness:
It's about respect for the customer. I think the following is inexusable and untoleratable as a business strategy:

"Hey, PF is too big for 2 cd's, but we aren't going to release it on 3 cd's. We release it on 2 cd's and you have to download the rest yourself at your costs". ... "Oh and btw; the rest isn't finished yet, so be patient..... can I have your money now?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still better then what M$ does.

"Hey, CFS series games are **** but you have to download a holy cr@pload of mods to make it complete, yes our CFS series games are twice the price of a normal game but hey, you get to fiddle around with all those mods, isn't that just great fun or what? Yes, yes, we will take good care of your money.....SUCKER!!!"

On top of that their games stay at the high price for god knows how long, just a few months ago did the price of CFS3 drop to a level where it might be worth to buy it if you like to fiddle around with a huge amount of mods and tweak tools.
Compared to the Forgotten Battles that is on sale for 4,95 Euro's and CFS3 still costs 14,95 Euro's. (And since it's actually advertised that CFS3 is not sale at that store it might only be cheaper because they still got a load of them lying around and hope to sell them)

A few years ago I bought Starlancer, pretty funny game but it had some bugs in it that desperately needed fixing.
But no, M$ didn't make a patch, instead they told the community to make mods in order to camoflage the bugs.

Never ever will I buy a game released by M$ ever in my life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hear you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif M$ is teh suck! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

but
UBI doing a little better than M$ doesn't say much IMHO http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, UBI doing worse than M$ is next to impossible, wouldn't you agree? After all M$ is The Flawlessly Undefeatable Champion of Customer-Ripoff. (T FUCCR)

flemsha
10-31-2004, 07:06 AM
I think the worst thing that could happen is if games like this started being targeted more to the 12-20 year olds who just want a game they can rip out of the box and play straight away... though I was probably in that age bracket when I first played Il-2 Sturmovik http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

The problem is most games are judged not on what the mature product looks like after several patches, but on the release version. Most gamers and reviewers probably won't pay attention to the ongoing development that goes on. Instead it will be dismissed as another incomplete buggy game.

Things like needing to assign keys are just where the simmer and the gamer diverge. To the gamer this means another few minutes of thought before they get into the game, for the simmer it is part of the game, getting themselves set up.

Just as the gamer wants to get straight into combat, the simmer wants the whole experience of getting their bird in the air, flying it to the target, engaging the enemy and then getting their bird home again in one piece.

The problem is that for every simmer there are probably 100 gamers out there, so it is with them that the money lies.

Me, I'll be quite happy to assign my keys, just as I did when I first opened up Il-2, when my copy of PF arrives, and I'll wait eagerly for the patches, because I know that if AEP, FB and Il-2 are anything to go by, PF is going to be great, and not a product that should be judged only on what the release CD has on it.

Fresshness
10-31-2004, 07:11 AM
that's fine flemsha. I admire your viewpoint, I really do. However, I don't like to play bank for UBI.

diabloblanco1
10-31-2004, 07:11 AM
As much as some here may enjoy DOOM 3, I have no worries that someone like Oleg would make a 'flight sim' that would cater anymore to an arcade crowd than he already has by including an arcade mode.

Papyrus with the Nascar series(highly accurate racing sims)finally included an arcade mode etc.. None of that changed the essence of the sim. Including an "arcade mode" is as far as PC developers need to go to get the "PC arcade dollar" IMHO.

Weather_Man
10-31-2004, 07:12 AM
How many people actually clicked on the README FIRST button before clicking on the install button?

Not Oleg's fault. There is no one to blame but yourself if you didn't know there is a chocks button or you had to map a key to it. If your own ignorance of the key controls is enough to piss you off, then you probably won't have the patience to stick with this game anyhow, and I wish you farewell and good luck.

BlackPhenix
10-31-2004, 07:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weather_Man:
How many people actually clicked on the _README FIRST_ button before clicking on the install button?

Not Oleg's fault. There is no one to blame but yourself if you didn't know there is a chocks button or you had to map a key to it. If your own ignorance of the key controls is enough to piss you off, then you probably won't have the patience to stick with this game anyhow, and I wish you farewell and good luck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this man's gib(use of words), very well stated.

GT182
10-31-2004, 07:18 AM
Well put Weather_Man. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ~S!~

effte
10-31-2004, 07:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weather_Man:
Not Oleg's fault. There is no one to blame but yourself if you didn't know there is a chocks button or you had to map a key to it. If your own ignorance of the key controls is enough to piss you off, then you probably won't have the patience to stick with this game anyhow, and I wish you farewell and good luck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, how brilliantly captured. They bought forgotten battles and now they are not buying Pacific Fighters since they don't have the patience to stick with this game, with the accessibility problems which has not been fixed.

This means that you risk not getting the patches and updates, and ultimately perhaps not getting BoB. Blame it on piracy all you want, but those sales could have balanced a lot of copying.

I for one would like to see BoB, but I guess you couldn't care less. Perhaps you lack the patience to see the next generation of combat flight simming or whatever?

Weather_Man
10-31-2004, 07:58 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about. I think you are confusing accessibility problems with user incompetence.

I don't know how it could be more accessible than by reading the directions provided. Perhaps Oleg should have provided a hotline for the thinking-impaired?

Bearcat99
10-31-2004, 08:18 AM
I think the thing that will harm our genre the most is people who dont take the time to read the manual or the readme files. People who want to see all things that dont work as opposed to the things hat do work. People who are either too lazy or too stuipid to learn how to use a complicated product and then want to blame the developer for thier stupidity. They dont even take the time to program all the functions at thier disposal or even find out what those functions are and what they do. I think Our genre is being ruined only in the minds of the above mentioned people. For those who are willing to see the forest and use what they have the genre is actually shaping up pretty nicely. I think that PC sims will always be a step ahead of the X-Box genre.. yet for a lot of people the X-Box genre is what they really want so something where you actually have to think, learn and plan instead of mount up and rule the skies in 1 hour is just too haaaaarrrrd. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Add to akll that the fact that flight sims are a uniqe genre. Especially if any kind of accuracy is wanted. In the cae of WW2 flight sims there is the historical aspect, the graphics.. the fact that you not only have things going left and right and up and down... but waaaay up and waaaaay down and far to the left and right. Its one thing to program in a lot of complicated equations to simulate going around a race track or mutated freaks popping up in frontof you and ripping your head off and a whole nother thing to program in what it take s for a flight of a few hundred miles with multiple aircraft and ground activity, and weather etc etc etc... all done in pretty close to real time. Anybody ever open up a DF server and set it to the time of day and let it run and then come back 12 hours later to see where it is at? Try it. These sims are masterpieces. But to get the full scope of the brilliance ofg it all you need to not nickel and dime it but take the whole picture. 3 Fronts, carriers, oooogles of aircraft and targets, great maps with highly detailed landscapes. I could go on and on as most of you know (If you have spent any QT with the series at all) humphhhh works for me.

JG7_Rall
10-31-2004, 08:37 AM
Guys, try to keep an open mind about what he is saying.

I know we all love PF and the first gut reaction is to post in this manner whenever we see a thread such as this. But he does have some good points. I do love PF, and all the IL2 games. But it doesn't mean that I'm willing to just dismiss all of its weaknesses and refuse to believe it is anything less than perfect.

The key mapping thing isn't that bad. N00bs should be able to figure it out after being frustrated then forced to actually do some reading or post the 10,000th thread on it. But the fact that they squished this game into 2 disks and forced the rest to download not a patch, but the remainder of the game is really poor marketing. What about all those who don't have a high speed internet connection? What about all those simmers who don't even USE the internet? How will they ever know that a whole other CD is available for download (whenever that'll be...two weeks, be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). That's really my only gripe against how PF is at the moment..ignoring FM's and such.

As far as mapping keys goes or just informing people that they need to release the chocks to move, maybe there should be a Tip section on the main menu that changes ever time you go back to the menu...it can have stuff like "you must release chocks to start moving on a carrier" or "bind a key in the controls section to raise your pilots seat to see better during landing". Just an idea....

S!

alitomdq
10-31-2004, 08:41 AM
somehow true.
but If that is the price (too low for me) wich I have to face to have a superb sim, I will always pay it.
Anyway, with constant addons upgrading oleg´s work, it really doesn´t matter to me if I have to wait a couple of weeks, or a month to correct a few things.
S!

GT182
10-31-2004, 09:00 AM
Going with what has been said so far, the main things needed are: "PATIENCE" for the patches to come out, plus being willing and able to "READ the manual".

It just seems no one has these any more. Or they've got a bootleg copy, which only hurts themselves in the long run. They will get caught!

ucanfly
10-31-2004, 09:15 AM
The key mapping thing is really a feature more than a flaw, but I have to agree that omitting aircraft that are advertised on the box even though they are ready is way below par. I'm one of many with a 56k connection and this sucks IMHO.

Even worse the newly initiated may be put off by this thus endangering future growth of this product. This way of dismissing or taking the new customer for granted is a way of ensuring a very small and obscure customer base and does not bode well for the future.

BinaryFalcon
10-31-2004, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However, I know that Ubi probably is to blame for this, but PF is totally incomplete for a newbie who doesn't own the FB or AEP games already. If you are going to produce PF as a stand alone game option to encourage new players you need to release a more complete product. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As someone who has been buying and "flying" PC flight sims for 20 years now, and as someone who bought Microprose sims after they were bought out by Hasbro, seeing such things said about anything in the IL-2 series just makes me laugh.

Seriously. We've never had it so good. Ever.

Granted, Ubi is about it for the genre anymore, and having so few produce for it is definitely a bad thing, but the quality and level of finish of what we're getting these days is unmatched. The last sim I can think of that came close for its day was SWOTL.

Falcon 4 proclaimed to be "the new benchmark in flight simulation". And at release, it was - only not in the way it was intended. A lot of people couldn't even get it to run right out of the box until the first patch was released. A year later when they ceased supporting it, it still didn't do everything that was promised on the box. How's that for incomplete?

Without exception, every release of the IL-2 series has looked great, run great and been rock stable right out of the box. Sure there have been little problems here and there, but at no point has the sim ever been outright broken, or even somewhat "screwed up".

I'd have gladly taken any of them right out of initial release with no patches or additions ever, and they'd still be the best sims produced to date.

To know where you are now, it helps to know where you've been. If you guys think this is bad, be glad you weren't in the sim market 10 years ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I can picture many potential new simmers getting totally frustrated by the fact that the A/C won't roll off the fight deck because they forgot to map the "Chocks" key. Also add the lack of many single player missions and a FUBARed Dynamic Campaign and you have a recipe for disaster. I know that you can create an infinate amout of missions in the FMB but how many newbies are going to want to try to attempt this? Maybe these ommissions will bore first timers who will give up with the complexity of the FMB before they realize what a jewel this game can be.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This, ultimately, is a user problem, not a software problem. It's a serious flight sim, not Crimson Skies (which was a great game, BTW).

Just as you don't walk into a McDonald's and expect to get a steak dinner, you shouldn't expect to jump into a serious flight sim without doing some basic RTFM. Any attempts to do either will likely end in some confusion and frustration. It's not necessarily a problem with the product, but rather your expectations. No amount of coding will be able to change that.

Although again, IL-2 comes about as close as possible with all of the switch settings it supports. I've never seen any other sim manage to support both the "real" and "arcade" players so well without screwing things up for both of them.

effte
10-31-2004, 09:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weather_Man:
I have no idea what you're talking about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm saying that having things written out in plain english will not be enough for some people to get it.

Q.E.D.



(I'll post a serious reply later if I feel like it, but this opportunity was too good to pass up on. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

rodion_zero
10-31-2004, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flemsha:
I think the worst thing that could happen is if games like this started being targeted more to the 12-20 year olds who just want a game they can rip out of the box and play straight away... though I was probably in that age bracket when I first played Il-2 Sturmovik http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

The problem is most games are judged not on what the mature product looks like after several patches, but on the release version. Most gamers and reviewers probably won't pay attention to the ongoing development that goes on. Instead it will be dismissed as another incomplete buggy game.

Things like needing to assign keys are just where the simmer and the gamer diverge. To the gamer this means another few minutes of thought before they get into the game, for the simmer it is part of the game, getting themselves set up.

Just as the gamer wants to get straight into combat, the simmer wants the whole experience of getting their bird in the air, flying it to the target, engaging the enemy and then getting their bird home again in one piece.

The problem is that for every simmer there are probably 100 gamers out there, so it is with them that the money lies.

Me, I'll be quite happy to assign my keys, just as I did when I first opened up Il-2, when my copy of PF arrives, and I'll wait eagerly for the patches, because I know that if AEP, FB and Il-2 are anything to go by, PF is going to be great, and not a product that should be judged only on what the release CD has on it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm afraid that in some other franchises, that has already happened. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Remember Lucasarts and SWOTL? Well the chief designer of SWOTL and earlier LUCASARTS games like BH:1942 and BOB:TFH, Lawrence Holland announced last year that they were building a "sequel" to the beloved Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe "SWOTL" sim...but what came out of their factory was an X-BOX style, arcadish game called "Secret Weapons Over Normandy", IMHO something that totally dishonor's SWOTL's legacy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I would really feel terrible if one day, the IL2 line would suffer the same fate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

-RODION

SgtBriggs
10-31-2004, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I can picture many potential new simmers getting totally frustrated by the fact that the A/C won't roll off the fight deck because they forgot to map the "Chocks" key. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i been reading a lot of post lately about people new to this game will have problems with the keymapping(or whining about something not having a default key), this or that should have been mapped to a default key. like if most folks wont be smart enough to look at the keycard that came with the game. ya i know alot of people just like to jump right into the game and start flying. (hey, im one of them.) but really, your going to have to look at that darn keycard to see what those defaults are anyways.

and..(im not done yet) as far as this game goes, it is the best ww2flightsim out there bar none. heck, cfs2 is still selling for $20.
so im pretty sure that this game will do good on its own, bugs and all.

Sakai9745
10-31-2004, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BinaryFalcon:

Just as you don't walk into a McDonald's and expect to get a steak dinner, you shouldn't expect to jump into a serious flight sim without doing some basic RTFM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't have been said any better. It's like comparing air combat in LOMAC as opposed to Playstation's Ace Combat 5 - no way are you going to even get a lock without some serious study in the tutorials. Another good example is the tactics of the Medal of Honor series as opposed to the Rainbow Six series - the latter demands that you can't go charging in without your team and solid tactics because it's brutally honest on the fact that you can't be shot thirty or forty times and expect to keep walking.

I do agree with the whole 'why release with only 2 disks and restrict total aircraft/ships/objects' deal, but that's rather small IMAO. There's plenty to do in the game as is until the first patch is released.

heywooood
10-31-2004, 10:34 AM
Good flight sims are not like most other computer games..you need periferals like a joystick etc... you dont just 'plug and play' so to speak - you must understand the basics of flight..then you must aquire fundamental air combat tactics and then apply that knowledge to each individual airframe....hmmm. Then you will need to be familiar with all the various control settings for each aircraft. There are different settings depending on armament, the amount of engine control you want(as well as single vs multi engine controls) and then the FMB interface that you should really try to explore with this sim.

Please take the time to read the readme files and also be prepared to be a little patient with 1c Maddox...this is how they do it. You get the CD's first - then you get new planes , new maps, new missions/campaigns, all the while that they are tweaking and repairng FM and DM code. Lighten up! get the instant gratification switched off and play PF while you are waiting.

effte
10-31-2004, 11:45 PM
Amazing how a lot of people refuse to see things above the level of €I have simulator, simulator keep me happy, I€m happy, simulator good€.

The point isn€t whether you think the simulator is good as is.

The point isn€t whether or not we think it is acceptable to put up with having to browse through a readme file and do a bit of trial and error to get through a few quirks of the program and figure out the basics by themselves.

Yes, there is a learning curve and there will always be, even if 1C has in an admirable way done a lot to easen up this learning curve by making toned-down difficulty settings available. If there isn€t, the technical content that we have come to expect isn€t there. But this isn€t the point either.

The point is that a large part of those who buy flight simulators are not prepared to browse through a readme file and do a bit of trial and error to get through a few quirks of the program and figure out the basics by themselves!

The opinion voiced by certain individuals here is that we€re better off without those people. To be honest, that is about the most daft thing I have heard this week. Like it or not, those are the people who bring the sales up. Those are the people who make sure that 1C get a profit out of the simulators. Those are the people who finance the next simulator in the series. They may never get beyond flying around with all difficulty settings at the lowest, failing miserably to get a hit percentage of above 1% against friendly, non-manoeuvring unarmed bombers, going €œwhoeee, look at me, I€m a fighter ace!€ but they are still a large part of the customer base!

We may well think of them as inferior beings, which clearly is the stand taken by certain individuals in here, but they are still paying for our next simulator! Thus, unless they can be persuaded to buy the next in the series, the next in the series might be the last in the series.

This is why 1C needs to cater for them.

This is why the persistent cosmetic glitches cannot be tolerated, even if their fixing will mean that an obscure version of an aircraft of which 4 individuals ever flew, counting the prototypes, is omitted from the game which will cause endless whining in the forums.

And the fact remains, every cosmetic issue, every less obvious part of the interface, every unclearly documented feature which prevents them getting off the ground will act towards convincing them that it is not worth the hassle. All they want is to go €œwhoeee, look at me, I€m a fighter ace!€ in front of their home computers. They will not spend half a day or even an hour on having to browse through a readme file and do a bit of trial and error to get through a few quirks of the program and figure out the basics by themselves. If they have to, the simulator is on the shelf and will never be joined by the next in the series.

So, my advice to a lot of the people who have spoken so far is to get a grip and wisen up. Your attitudes are making it a lot harder for 1C to focus on getting these basic issues right.

rodion_zero
11-01-2004, 12:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by effte:
Amazing how a lot of people refuse to see things above the level of €I have simulator, simulator keep me happy, I€m happy, simulator good€.

The point isn€t whether you think the simulator is good as is.

The point isn€t whether or not we think it is acceptable to put up with having to browse through a readme file and do a bit of trial and error to get through a few quirks of the program and figure out the basics by themselves.

Yes, there is a learning curve and there will always be, even if 1C has in an admirable way done a lot to easen up this learning curve by making toned-down difficulty settings available. If there isn€t, the technical content that we have come to expect isn€t there. But this isn€t the point either.

The point is that a large part of those who buy flight simulators are _not_ prepared to browse through a readme file and do a bit of trial and error to get through a few quirks of the program and figure out the basics by themselves!

The opinion voiced by certain individuals here is that we€re better off without those people. To be honest, that is about the most daft thing I have heard this week. Like it or not, those are the people who bring the sales up. Those are the people who make sure that 1C get a profit out of the simulators. Those are the people who finance the next simulator in the series. They may never get beyond flying around with all difficulty settings at the lowest, failing miserably to get a hit percentage of above 1% against friendly, non-manoeuvring unarmed bombers, going €œwhoeee, look at me, I€m a fighter ace!€ but they are _still_ a large part of the customer base!

We may well think of them as inferior beings, which clearly is the stand taken by certain individuals in here, _but _they_ are still paying for _our_ next simulator_! Thus, unless they can be persuaded to buy the next in the series, the next in the series might be the last in the series.

This is why 1C needs to cater for them.

This is why the persistent cosmetic glitches cannot be tolerated, even if their fixing will mean that an obscure version of an aircraft of which 4 individuals ever flew, counting the prototypes, is omitted from the game which will cause endless whining in the forums.

And the fact remains, every cosmetic issue, every less obvious part of the interface, every unclearly documented feature which prevents them getting off the ground _will_ act towards convincing them that it is not worth the hassle. All they want is to go €œwhoeee, look at me, I€m a fighter ace!€ in front of their home computers. They will _not_ spend half a day or even an hour on having to browse through a readme file and do a bit of trial and error to get through a few quirks of the program and figure out the basics by themselves. If they have to, the simulator is on the shelf and will never be joined by the next in the series.

So, my advice to a lot of the people who have spoken so far is to get a grip and wisen up. Your attitudes are making it a lot harder for 1C to focus on getting these basic issues right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I now see your point.

Perhaps its because of the fact that a computer game/simulation has deadlines to meet, that issues like missing key commands, wrong AI, wrong performance values happen. Maybe it's because the company who makes the game cannot afford to hire someone to do a bit of "quality control" meaning they are already stretching their budget just to pay the programmers and the graphics artists already, and they are pressured of a deadline. So what then could be a possible solution?

Well, since the 80% "who keeps the game alive", the masses who complain about not having some keys already mapped etc., cannot be ignored, for fear that the sim might die, why don't 1C hire VOLUNTEERS from the IL2 hardcore community (i.e. people who dont want to see the series "die) to act as these quality control specialists that will ensure that such issues like the missing buttons/keys, the weird AI behaviour in campaigns, the wrong aircraft perf values like in the Ki-61 Tony WOULD NOT OCCUR before a release??? Even though they DON'T GET PAID, we expect the volunteers to do their job very well...why? Because if they don't, the whiners will whine and the sim will die...now they (the hardcore people) don't want that to happen now, do they? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So I'm now humbly suggesting to 1C that they pick some "veteran" and "hardcore" IL2 players from Europe (i.e. most accessible from Russia) that would volunteer to do this dirty work of quality control so that issues like this won't crop up in future 1C releases.

Is my logic flawed? I need your comments on this ASAP, because I am indeed concerned about the sims future--it lies in the hands of those who really aren't into the hardcore aspect of the sim!!! Aren't YOU alarmed by this thought??

-RODION

ImpStarDuece
11-01-2004, 12:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThunderThor:
As for the youth vote. My 12 year old son likes the thought of flying. But I have to take off the plane for him. Also he spins alot and crashes. After a few times he's off to play console games.

Perhaps if you want the young 12-20 to play flight sims they should have mods with Jack and Dexter stickers or characters. Perhaps you could hop out on the wing and shoot the planes flying at you on autopilot. Or better yet as you parachute out you have a gun and can shoot planes down as you fall to earth?


Yound adults wont play this period.

Secondly as the guy at EB said it looks nice but.
Secondly why should I pay $500 for a video card, to play a $40 game like LOMAC OR PF OR ANYTHING ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ThunderThor; whats with the ageism man? Its not thed age its the attitude.

I started playing flight sims about ten years ago. I think ive played the Il2 sterise for close to three years. I'm 24 now. Does that make me one of those young adults who 'wont' play this game?

I introduced my little brother to this game. Hes 16 now. In the past year i have watched him graduate from a 'air quake, cant take off, cant land cant shoot anything noob to a deadly 109 driver and a hot hand in a Dora. Simultaneously he has developed an interest in military history, particularly WW2 aviation. Its abotu patientence and learning, not about instant action. Some people will apreciate that (sim players) and some people wont. FAct of life that different personalities expect different things.

Bring on the 12 years olds i say. I've been waxed by 60 years olds and sixteen year olds. If they can fly, if they understand a little of the background of the sim and they are willing to have a little respect for the community and developers bring them in. New blood can do nothing but good in a small community such as this.

Charlie901
11-01-2004, 01:26 AM
I think a lot of you missed the jist of my post.

I'm not whining about the game; maybe whining about the loss of popularity of my favorite hobby. But I definately think that PF is a good game and had no problem assigning keys 2 secs after it was installed. I wasn't concerned about the DGen cause I knew from experience and constant visits to this forum that it would be addressed, eventually. I also know from experience that the developers are behind this sim 110% and that a lot of free addon A/C are on the way.

I'm also thrilled that PF has hit a major retailer like Best Buy.

But I'm a little concearned for the first time buyer who might not see the sentance halfway through the README that states that extra free A/C are definately comming via a patch as well as all the fixes we would ever need. Many first timers might mistakenly believe that whats in the box is all your ever gonna get, prompting them to return the game for a refund, convincing Best Buy not to carry such games like LOCKON http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Maybe a little slip of paper could have been inserted in the CD case that says: Go to xyz website for future release of copious addon content and game fixes.

Barred
11-01-2004, 02:22 AM
Charlie, your last paragraph is a good idea but a lot of people would not even read that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I am all for new blood comming into the sim areana no matter their age or gender, I do not mind if all the aids are turned on, if that is what rocks their boat good for them, welcome to the world of sims http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But there is enough information about on the web and magazines ect that have reviewed or commented on the IL2 series to know that this is not SWON. What I am trying to say is that there is a difference between sims and arcade games, there is enough information around.

You cannot expect there to be no learning curve, nor have basic post asking for help at basic levels. But there are ways of asking eg:-

"I have to map 2 keys to take off and land, that are mentioned in the readme, what a crock of s**T !"
and
"Guys I am new to sims, what keys would you recomend I asign to allow me to take off and land?"

See what I mean?

Granted there are bugs in PF, yes it takes some getting use to, but on 99% of well looked after systems none of the bugs are show stoppers, but the way some people post these bugs are the end of the world.

At least there are no fleets of cruisers and battle ships instead of clouds, which always happend to me in CFS3.

Peace.

effte
11-01-2004, 03:11 AM
Rodion,
you€re describing beta-testing. It is already done... or so it is said. It has amazed me from the start how a beta-testing program can fail to put an end to such apparent shortcomings as have been in the release versions from the very start.

We have beta-testers present. Feel free to comment, although I realize that there might be restrictions in the NDA on to what degree you are allowed to comment on the beta-testing procedure.

Why does the beta testing generate loads of screen shots and hype-fuelling talk but fail to point out rather glaring obmissions... each time around?

Is the selection of beta testers flawed? Are beta-tester comments not acted on? Other reasons?

Cheers,
Fred

NegativeGee
11-01-2004, 03:17 AM
Not reading the readme and even the manual is an issue in many games, as are developers/publishers who produce documentation that lacks clarity.

The thing here is the product contains so much detail that these issues are more apparent and it is also much harder to ad-lib your way into a flight sim.

Even if you did do everything right first time there is still going to be some experiementation required....

BinaryFalcon
11-01-2004, 08:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The point isn€t whether or not we think it is acceptable to put up with having to browse through a readme file and do a bit of trial and error to get through a few quirks of the program and figure out the basics by themselves.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the answer would be a resounding, "yes".

It's not that much to ask, and it's not that hard to do. Especially compared to what the user is going to be required to learn in order to use the simulator anyway. It's a simulation, by its very nature it's going to be more complex than most other games out there.

Whether they start reading and learning 30 seconds before starting or 8 seconds after doesn't really make any difference. Those that are willing to put forth any amount of effort to play either will do so or they won't.

Removing the readme notes (which are even item number 1 on the install screen, and labeled "Read me first") isn't going to change that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The point is that a large part of those who buy flight simulators are not prepared to browse through a readme file and do a bit of trial and error to get through a few quirks of the program and figure out the basics by themselves! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then put blunty, they are buying the wrong software. Willful consumer ignorance is not something the rest of us should be penalized for. It's a slippery slope on this one. Years ago people claimed a 100 page manual was too much, so instructions were streamlined and documentation became simpler. Then 20 pages was too much, so "quickstart guides" became popular.

Now even those are too much? Where does it become unreasonable? How far does it go? Does the software have to wirelessly transmit itself to the machine, install and play itself before it becomes easy enough for the "average" user?

It sounds like hyperbole, but compared to where we were 10 or 15 years ago, we're a lot closer to that than you may think.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The opinion voiced by certain individuals here is that we€re better off without those people. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps not better off, but I won't miss them. If they're too lazy to be bothered to look at a simple readme file, they're not going to last long once they hit the real game anyway - documentation or not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They may never get beyond flying around with all difficulty settings at the lowest, failing miserably to get a hit percentage of above 1% against friendly, non-manoeuvring unarmed bombers, going €œwhoeee, look at me, I€m a fighter ace!€ but they are still a large part of the customer base! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And based on that exact experience they are either going to quit playing in frustration due to their lack of ability and skip on the next sim anyway, or they'll be inclined to read and learn more in the hopes of improving. Removing the need for a readme file and basic documentation isn't going to change that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Thus, unless they can be persuaded to buy the next in the series, the next in the series might be the last in the series.

This is why 1C needs to cater for them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely not. Hasbro attempted this with "Gunship!" and what they ended up with was a program nobody liked. It was too hard for the arcade types, and too arcade for the sim types. It pretty much displeased everyone equally.

If 1C caters to the types you describe above, we likely won't get the next sim in the series anyway, because we'll end up with something like "Gunship!". Technically there will have been a new program and a release, but it's unlikely to be worth playing. Seems to me I didn't get my sim either way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
This is why the persistent cosmetic glitches cannot be tolerated... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Such as? I'm trying, but I can't really think of anything significant enough to be a problem. Seriously. It's a 4 year old sim at this point, it has limitations, and there are no game breaking or even remotely serious cosmetic issues that I can think of at the moment.

Yes, there are things that I think could be done better and that I would like to see improved, but again, I know the code behind it all is probably at least 6 years old. I think they've done a great job in improving and overhauling it where they could, but the really big improvements are going to require a new engine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And the fact remains, every cosmetic issue, every less obvious part of the interface, every unclearly documented feature which prevents them getting off the ground will act towards convincing them that it is not worth the hassle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the fact remains that anyone so easily dissuaded isn't likely to continue playing after getting shot down for the 3rd time in 5 minutes. Assuming they can even manage to get off the ground in the first place, no matter how easy you make it for them to get to that point.

Say you "solve" that problem, where's the next line? Starting the engine? Raising the gear? Learning how to lead a target?

The point is, you've got to draw the line someplace where the user has to take some amount of personal responsibility to enjoy the experience. For a simulator, putting that line at "Please read these 2 pages of text first" is not in any way unreasonable. This is IL-2, not Crimson Skies. Some small amount of effort will be required on your part before you begin.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>All they want is to go €œwhoeee, look at me, I€m a fighter ace!€ in front of their home computers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then they should be playing Ace Combat or Crimson Skies, as those sorts of games offer the experience they are seeking. They're good games too, and lots of fun. But they're not serious simulations, and I don't expect them to be. To be honest, I don't want them to be. But when I sit down to play IL-2, I want it to be a serious sim. I don't want Crimson Skies or Ace Combat. If I did, I'd be playing them instead.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They will not spend half a day or even an hour on having to browse through a readme file and do a bit of trial and error to get through a few quirks of the program and figure out the basics by themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Call me an elitest then, because I believe these people are too lazy and/or stupid to use a computer and software. Every piece of software out there, including console games, includes some amount of documentation and learning curve - including trial and error experimentation - for the user. Even Pong. In Pong's case it's not much, but it's still there.

In either case, going through the readme takes perhaps 5 minutes. That's all.

If that's too much effort to expend they'll need to confine their dogfighting efforts to putting on a copy of Top Gun, because that's the only way you'll be able to make it simple enough for people that lazy.

GT182
11-01-2004, 09:18 AM
This might help with setting things up.

The one thing that will help with running any game/simulation is PRINTING OUT the readme file on the CD or from the Main Folder. At least having done this, you will have all the info you need at hand, and won't have to jump back and forth to find what you need to get things running smoothly.

Lifetaker999
11-01-2004, 10:20 AM
I am just happy Oleg did not listen to any calls to "dumb down" a "simulation". Air Quake this is not and never will be http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

il2rookie
11-01-2004, 02:21 PM
The point of the original poster was to not dumb down the simulation do the level of instant-gratification first person shooters, but rather to spend a relatively low amount of man-hours (compared to what is spent on making the nucleus of this game so awesome) to make the simulation more user-friendly. I myself am somewhere in the middle of the core simmer-arcade player scale, meaning that I love the action of IL2 series and don't mind re-mapping keys, but is rather annoyed to fly for 15 minutes on maximum time compression to my mission objective (the first IJN Pearl Harbor mission). When I started with IL2 it took me about a week of sparse playing to get to like it, because the learning curve is rather steep and is not helped at all by the user interface and dispersness of useful information over the many sources (readme files, forums, flying guides, etc).

I decided to stick with the game for that week because of its reputation and I don't regret it at all as I love the game. However, like it or not, most gamers who potentially would enjoy and play this game, and more importantly PAY for it, don't have enough patience to stick with it because of the learning curve and bluntly saying mediocre user interface. Oleg once said that the market for flight sims is two orders of magnitude smaller than the FPS market, well I don't think that's quiet right. There are tons of people who would have enjoyed the IL2 series if they were helped through the learning curve. Take me as your average gamer, I enjoy RTS, RPG, MMORPG besides flight sims, so when deciding on the next game to play I'd prefer not to spend a week reading forums and searching the web for beginners tips when I can install something else and enjoy it right away. In the end I am better off sticking with IL2 but that's only because I am more patient then a number of gamers who will put the game away and try the next one. The point of all this being is that a relatively small effort to improve the UI and user-friendliness will make this game more accessible to an average player, and help the much needed increase of the customer base.

For example, how hard is it to make an interactive quick start tutorial with the basics of taking off, landing, shooting, etc explained? Most games now have this and it's where new players are accustomed to go once they install the game.It would take less effort than creating a single flyable plane model, and would retain a number of gamers who would otherwise find the learning curve to steep. I'm sure there are many more simple but important UI improvements, which would raise IL2 attractiveness to an average gamer.

Pho3nix47
11-01-2004, 03:44 PM
I am 20 now. When I was, what 12? i first got
F-19 stealth fighter and man it was so good. just for that game i went out and spent $100 on my logiteck wingman extreem joystick. all the money i had saved up in a year. than i got jet fighter 3, that game was soo good to me back than, got to fly 2 aircraft.. 2 AIRCRAFT ! and land on carriers ! (also got to do that in F-19)

than i had enough money to by a new joystick with rudder and throtle, at that time i got what i still regard as having the best single player campaine of any sim ever, Total Air War.
any of those that played it would agree.

than i was introduced in to the WWII sims CFS 1, which was ok than CFS 2 that was great! in which other FS could you fly the F4U on carriers!

just after that my world was rocked by IL-2. Oh My God, this FS had it all, perfect physics, full 3d cockpit with no 2d counterpart and set in a part of the war not may people new about.

I also got LOCK ON for Xmas and still love it.

I love my physics hence the love of realistic simulators (i also love driving so if any one else does i belive you should cheak out liveforspeed.com http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif). Now if you have played any number of the FS you will know what a leap in tech IL-2 was. PF is just the same but much better in terms of graphics and functionalities.

I am supposed to be studing for my complex anaysis exam but i stumbeld on to this thread and saw peoples view on this subject, all with valid points.

But the fact of the matter is that all the previousley noted sims had there flaws, Iam not desigusing that fact, but PF with all of its 'bugs' is still the best WWII combat flight sim out there.

I belive everyone can agree on that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rodion_zero
11-01-2004, 06:35 PM
I will reprase my suggestion effte. I humbly suggest that 1C should seriously consider RE-EVALUATING THEIR BETA-TESTING METHODS/SCHEME so that the focus would NOT be on how it appeals more to "hardcore" or "tech-people", but how it can be more user friendly to those not accustomed to the genre or just "passing fans" of combat flight simulations. Maybe we can put up a petition for this, and perhaps some of you can even recommend the kind of people who should beta-test 1C simulations from now on.

-RODION

effte
11-02-2004, 02:14 AM
il2rookie,
despite calling yourself a rookie, you are beating the old hands in the field of reading comprehension. You are spot on. Thanks for the clarification I was too fed up to write myself. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rodion,
ah, I suspected that was what you really meant. And I couldn€t agree more! Yes, perhaps it would be worthwhile to try to raise the issue. The question is how?

Cheers,
Fred

WUAF_Badsight
11-02-2004, 02:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie901:
I think a lot of you missed the jist of my post. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
im sure they did

it seems if you point out things are wrong your whining , & there is no-end of people who are willing to call you such

its a fact that they got PF out the door too early

but it was done for a reason

after the 2nd patch (& im counting on 2 or , more likely , 3) & the glaring problems still are not being addressed . . . .

. . . . you will then truely have legitimacy

as for now , its true we should be bug-reporting , & waiting for that first patch

PF is far & away from being anywhere near a Gold product

Philipscdrw
11-02-2004, 05:06 AM
Well, I'm very happy to get 2/3rds of Pacific Fighters ahead of schedule. When FB and AEP came out I was overwhelmed by a sea of new planes, and didn't really spend much time on any individual aircraft. PF as it is now lets me concentrate on the new aircraft, of which there are enough to keep me interested until the patch.

I'm rambling a bit, but I prefer to get 2/3rds of the content now and the rest a month later, to getting all of the game but released 2 weeks later.

And I agree that PF isn't very new-user-friendly, and it is an excellent idea to get volunteers from the community to redesign the interface, and provide an 'easy start guide' for the newcomers.

ThunderThor
11-02-2004, 09:59 AM
I HAVE BEEN THREATENED WITH A BAN FOR MY FOUR POSTS IF I SAY SOMETHING REALLY REALLY BAD.

So until France investigates my unbanding I will say no commment and GOOD LUCK TO THOSE WHO FLY THE FRIENDLY SKIES OF THIS SITE.

Now where was my laser gun?

Out for a very long time UBER FORUM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif