PDA

View Full Version : Single player fustrations in FB



XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:45 AM
I played through MOST of IL2's single player and I enjoyed it. It was challanging, but not impossible. In IL2 FB, its damn near impossible even at the most easy settings!!! The campain gen is TOTALLY off wack. Here is my experance.

Start up in 1941 as a VVS fighter in a Mig 3ud. 100% of the missions are like this. Take off and patrole at 1600m. Enemy at 3000m at VASTLY outnumber you. Typically its 8 Mig's against 10 109's and 9 bombers for bomber intercept. Plus the 109's are VASTLY superior. Once one is on your tail, you cant shake him at all!!! And your wingment AI will never help you. So as a VVS pilot, your #1, out numberd, #2, always lower, #3, in vastly inferior aircraft.

So I think "I guess thats historical till later in the war.". Unfortunatly I cant get later in the war. I have played through till about mid 1942 and gave up. I said "The German side must have it easier. They should outnumber the enemy and patrole higher".

I was wrong. As a 109F2 pilot on the same map, im outnumberd ALL the time, and in vastly inferior aircraft. Plus, the patroles are at 1600M and the enemy's come in at 3600M.

This is TOTALLY reverse of the VVS campain. I dont understand it!!!! Plus add to that the head on instant death.

I found in all cases for the campain gen

#1, your ALWAYS outnumberd.
#2, the enemy AI is ALWAYS better then your wingmen
#3, wingmen are useless
#4, the AI is ALWAYS higher then you
#5, the campains are almost impossible to beat.
#6, if you survive the first head on pass, you wont survive the 2nd.

Before you guys go off and say im in-experanced, let me say this. I know how to fool the "head on" pass. Fly at 45-90 degree angle and full rudder. The AI typically ignores you thinking your going into a turn. But as I am dogfighting, 99% of the time I am killed when I turn around just in time to see an AI comming head on, and instant kill for him.

Also, I dont always fly in autopilot. I fly most of the time in auto till I see the enemy on the map. Then I pull up and gain alt till I meet them. Typically in equal grounds. But that leaves everyone else at 1600M, and I am the only target for about 12 I-16's.

Currently im stuck on a mission for Germany. I need to stop bombers (12 I-153's) that are sent to bomb trucks.

#1, by the time I get to the target to defend it, the I-153's are already going home after bombing it to hell
#2, its just me, 8 109F2's against 12 I-153's and 12 I-16's. Ya. Thats fair!!!
#3, I do have another 8 BF-110's in the group, but they fly so slow they cant help.
#4, Shooting down ANYTHING in a F2 is damn near impossible with its weak guns, let alone small I-16's or I-153's were you only get snap shots, if that.
#5, B&Z does NOT work on the AI's if they have alt advantage. Plus my AI wingment are doing T&B and get blasted.

Ow, and then there is the deal with my #1 wingman. I tell him to cover me, and he does NOTHING!!!! Just stays on my wing and watches me get blasted. At least in IL2 if you called for help, they would go after the aircraft shooting at you. But you cant in FB.

Im just so friggen fustrated!!!! Sorry I had to vent.

Gib

"You dont win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:45 AM
I played through MOST of IL2's single player and I enjoyed it. It was challanging, but not impossible. In IL2 FB, its damn near impossible even at the most easy settings!!! The campain gen is TOTALLY off wack. Here is my experance.

Start up in 1941 as a VVS fighter in a Mig 3ud. 100% of the missions are like this. Take off and patrole at 1600m. Enemy at 3000m at VASTLY outnumber you. Typically its 8 Mig's against 10 109's and 9 bombers for bomber intercept. Plus the 109's are VASTLY superior. Once one is on your tail, you cant shake him at all!!! And your wingment AI will never help you. So as a VVS pilot, your #1, out numberd, #2, always lower, #3, in vastly inferior aircraft.

So I think "I guess thats historical till later in the war.". Unfortunatly I cant get later in the war. I have played through till about mid 1942 and gave up. I said "The German side must have it easier. They should outnumber the enemy and patrole higher".

I was wrong. As a 109F2 pilot on the same map, im outnumberd ALL the time, and in vastly inferior aircraft. Plus, the patroles are at 1600M and the enemy's come in at 3600M.

This is TOTALLY reverse of the VVS campain. I dont understand it!!!! Plus add to that the head on instant death.

I found in all cases for the campain gen

#1, your ALWAYS outnumberd.
#2, the enemy AI is ALWAYS better then your wingmen
#3, wingmen are useless
#4, the AI is ALWAYS higher then you
#5, the campains are almost impossible to beat.
#6, if you survive the first head on pass, you wont survive the 2nd.

Before you guys go off and say im in-experanced, let me say this. I know how to fool the "head on" pass. Fly at 45-90 degree angle and full rudder. The AI typically ignores you thinking your going into a turn. But as I am dogfighting, 99% of the time I am killed when I turn around just in time to see an AI comming head on, and instant kill for him.

Also, I dont always fly in autopilot. I fly most of the time in auto till I see the enemy on the map. Then I pull up and gain alt till I meet them. Typically in equal grounds. But that leaves everyone else at 1600M, and I am the only target for about 12 I-16's.

Currently im stuck on a mission for Germany. I need to stop bombers (12 I-153's) that are sent to bomb trucks.

#1, by the time I get to the target to defend it, the I-153's are already going home after bombing it to hell
#2, its just me, 8 109F2's against 12 I-153's and 12 I-16's. Ya. Thats fair!!!
#3, I do have another 8 BF-110's in the group, but they fly so slow they cant help.
#4, Shooting down ANYTHING in a F2 is damn near impossible with its weak guns, let alone small I-16's or I-153's were you only get snap shots, if that.
#5, B&Z does NOT work on the AI's if they have alt advantage. Plus my AI wingment are doing T&B and get blasted.

Ow, and then there is the deal with my #1 wingman. I tell him to cover me, and he does NOTHING!!!! Just stays on my wing and watches me get blasted. At least in IL2 if you called for help, they would go after the aircraft shooting at you. But you cant in FB.

Im just so friggen fustrated!!!! Sorry I had to vent.

Gib

"You dont win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:18 AM
I understand that one well Gibbage....

I despise the fact that I seem to permanently have five enemy planes welded to my rudder while the other seven in my flight go and pick on one enemy plane which is already out of the fight. You ask for help and all you get is "I'm too busy". What bloody teamwork? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

The F2 might be nice to fly but god its useless for shooting anything down. Might as well through bananas at the enemy instead....

I've just given up on FB DCG and spend my time skinning unloved/unflyable planes instead. When the patch comes out (if ever) I'll try the campaign again. In real life you have success AND failure. Please allow us to fail Oleg, please. In some missions (such as the ones you described Gibbage) it should be enough just to have the pilot survive.

Great models BTW Gibbage /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

Message Edited on 07/07/03 09:19AM by Owl_NZ

Message Edited on 07/07/0309:53AM by Owl_NZ

Zayets
07-07-2003, 10:18 AM
Hehehe , know the feeling...
started a german campaign , south , which sent me in Crimea. So far , so good. Didn't paid attention to campaign settings , so I took of for my first mission. Lucky enough , only 115 km flight. Suddenly , the sky goes black at about 3000 m. Full of I-16 , we were 8 , they must be something like 12 plus another 4 Pe's , just in case /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . The goal of the mission was to destroy enemy artillery somewhere on a hill , next to Yalta airport I believe. If I was german AI , I would attract russian fighters over the sea because AAA is so thick that you caan't survive. As usual , AI fighters go head on , german and russian alike. Lucky enough , I see 2 I's going in flames but I see also 2 Bf's smokin'. As the fight is over the airport I pay a lot of attention to flack. And I rip the wing off from a I'16 and PK'ed a Pe. From all our flight only 4 survive , that includes me. I heard the leader saying that mission was accomplished , although there's no bomber in our flight! and head to home. And the ba$tards leave me followed by 2 pe's over the Black Sea. Spray & pray and they hit my engine. Call for help , nobody answers , I dive and shake those Pe's off. Look on the map for the nearest AA position and I head towaards it. The soviets follows me , our AA start fire and one Pe goes in flames. The other one remembers that he's too far from his base and breaks off. AA keeps shooting and they kill my engine. I can't land , coz I see nothing. So , I bail out. mission failed , better luck next time.

Now , this is somehow normal if you ignore stupid AI and sniper AA and also task order. What I don't understand is why campaign was over for me? I bailed out behind our lines. One could say to uncheck/check No instant success but this affect the campaign globaly. Is not better to add like in CFS2 as goal that the pilot survives?

IMHO , dynamic campaign as it is now is just a waste of time. Is not good at all. Over heavy populated areas the game stutters alot.Whatever is done to the campaign engine or anything else , I hope it will be patched good.
Zayets out

http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:19 AM
The only dynamic campaign I found playable "out of the box" was the 109 JABO .. it seems reasonably balanced.

I have been playing experten instead.


Apparently you can modify the config file to change the percentage of Ace and Veteran AI on the opposing sides to balance the campaigns better but i have not tried to do this yet.

In my opinion this should be a built in difficulty setting in the game. You should be able to choose the difficulty of the opposition and skill of sqaud mates when you first set up your campaign.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:32 AM
I must say that since I use IL2Stab, I almost never get missions where I get myself outnumbered...most of the time, we are at equal numbers. At the moment, I´m playing soviet campaign, 1942, Leningrad, Hurricane IIc, and i.e. in my last mission we had to patrol over enemy airspace and my 6 hurricanes squad + 2 Yaks got engaged by 8 FW 190...(not an easy task, anyway, but at least not outnumbered)

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

Cpt.LoneRanger
07-07-2003, 10:32 AM
It's okay, it's okay, let it all out =)

No, seriously, you are 100% right.

Okay, war's never fair, but the campaign just sux, at the current version.

Together with the flight and damage-model it largely depends on what fighter you're flying. I flew an I16 and I153 and got almost 60 missions without being shot down a single time and got LOTS of victories. As my squad finally got refitted to P40M, I needed 5 to 10 trials to complete a single missions.

The myth, that the wingmen are getting better is wrong. They just die every time, against fighters, but they're good in attacking ground targets and slow bombers. I also noticed, that they follow enemy-bombers to their home-airfields and get shot by their sniper-AAA. Now that is wise, isn't it!?

But what sux most is the AI, that doesn't seem to care about red/black outs, complex engine management, stalling and engine overheating.
Since I got some experience with the I16, I tried to push the nose down in my Bf109-campaign and tried to cut my opponents engine out.
I made a complete outside loop at rather low speed, the first half on purpose, the second because I redded out completely. The I16 followed me, doing an negative loop without ANY problems.

Besides that, I lost more virtual lifes to collisions with my wingmen, than to enemy fire......

How long until the patch, again?

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:33 AM
Gib, you may wish to peek at the generated missions in FMB. I started the TB~3 Camp, was bored by it, and took one look at how the first mission was created. I got so disgusted and I never looked back. No FB campaigns for me. However, the 3rd Party generators may be worth trying.

When (and if) I get my one day mission completed, I'll trade that for a P~80. You will be required to run a compiled FORTRAN program to read eventlog.lst and write the next mission. But its Guaranteed to be heavily randomized and have a hellish number of options and activities, building upon the very primitive activities available in FMB.

I think I will be doing Online-2 map, both winter and summer available. Objective is to keep from being pushed off the map by enemy ground forces--you have a reason to do whats best for your side not just you. Possibly more than one day. The trick is in the FORTRAN because FMB is yabsolutely crippled except for the most inane simpleton stuff.

This is 2003 and I can't believe FB can't allow set up of formations larger than 4 aircraft. I'm pulling my hair trying to do the advanced stuff I need to. It can be done though. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Gotta be.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:35 AM
You like being outnumbered Gibbage1 ?

Try the finnish campaigns, you will love them. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif)

Reiska

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:39 AM
Yeah! Finnish campaign is really amusing! I´ve started that one at least ten times with a finnish Hurri I, and still can´t get through the first mission, where you must scramble and shoot down a few Pe 8...those damned sniper rear gunners always manage to blow my engine from one single shot at 500m+!!!!

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:49 AM
AI is totally porked, DM too, campaing sucks great time, huge warping online, poor sound - yet it's still the best WWII sim..only IL 2 was better.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:51 AM
Completely agreed. The whole AI behaviour is crazy. Wingman are simply out of mind. And you always fight against Luke Skywalker... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I don't think that bettering AI could be so hard. Just implement B'n'Z mode (it's simplier than T'n'B, just let AI think in vertical rather than horizontal plane), use altitude (I think that intercepting enemies at 1600 it's something that no commander would nerver order). Put a switch in configuration settings that activates "realistic AI":

<code>
if(engine.fullpowertime()>airplane.overheattime()) {
engine.reducepower();
}

if(airplane.pulledG()>AI.GLimit()) {
AIairplane.reducebank();
}
</code>

... and so on.

Maybe those changes are more important and more requested than others!

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

Cpt.LoneRanger
07-07-2003, 11:28 AM
Yeah, LO

The Finish campaign rulz. We got to scramble in the first mission and I was at about 700m when the first wave of TB3s bombed my airfield to oblivion from about 3000m+.

When the second wave came in, I wondered, what they came for, but at least I got a hole in one the TB3s wings, though nothing that a TB3 bothers about.

The third wave was closely followed by a group of I16. I managed to pass through them, my flight of hurries was killed COMPLETELY, without ANY losses to the I16s!!!

I managed to attack the leading TB3 from low 11, but the gunner opened fire at sniping-distance and killed my engine with the first hit...

After I managed to glide to my burned home, I got promoted for successfully accomplishing the mission - LOL!


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:40 AM
I agree with you Gibbage. I don't play campaigns, only use the fmb and qmb.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:42 AM
Well, at least I do enjoy the campaigns...they´re challenging...

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:45 AM
I think most of us must share these frustrations.

I gave up with Dynamic campaign and just fly experten now, but I like the features on dynamic campaign (like the flight path you take, list of what you've shot down etc).

I couldn't deal with those crazy odds on USSR campaign - at one point I had 6 109s on my tail while all my AI squad were flying round in circles...no fun. (But hey it's realistic - I got shot down, died and have taken no further part in the campaign!) and generally have too much frame rate loss (but that's just my old PC); experten works just fine though and missions are great.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:49 AM
Why, you'd almost think it needs patching, or something!

Who would have thought it?

I suppose you're going to tell me that the trim is all wrong next./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center><table bgcolor="black" width="400px"><tr><td>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/banner2.jpg



<center> Click here for the greeting! (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/in-out.wav)</center>

<center>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/moloko.jpg

<font size="+1">Horrorshow!</font></center>

</td></tr></table></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:52 AM
I think all the generated missions suck.............thats why I like to write and play single missions mostly

th 'experten' campaign is good though..........it would be nice if the best feature of the FB campaigns were there too ........which I think is the 'de-brief' after a mission, with ones own track hight\lighted and shown on the map where one has made kills /jumped/died etc.

is that feature not available to 3rd party mission builders??

'loon'

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:00 PM
You also forgot about when your on a bad guys 6 lining up the shot and you AI wingman shoot thru you to get the kill and takes you out at the same time



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:04 PM
i had a mission, september 1942 ,Stalingrad. flying with a Focke wulf ,
we were outnumbered and the soviet fighter attacked our formation.
got a I 16 on my tail and i ordered my wingi to help me.
he did it and shot down the enemy planes over and over again (3 times)
at the end we got 20 victories and lost just 3 planes .thats not bad .
settings full real, expect outsideview.
so i cant agree , the enemy isnt always better than your formation.
btw. we had the same level.




http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:06 PM
Il-2 STAB lets you set some parameters for the Il-2 dynamic campaign generation.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://members.chello.se/ven/ham-pin.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:11 PM
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
- Il-2 STAB lets you set some parameters for the Il-2
- dynamic campaign generation.

That´s what I say. Since I use it, I never get outnumbered...I guess it works quite fine in this sense...

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:24 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- I played through MOST of IL2's single player and I
- enjoyed it. It was challanging, but not impossible.
- In IL2 FB, its damn near impossible even at the
- most easy settings!!! The campain gen is TOTALLY
- off wack. Here is my experance.

Get the DCGen prog (version 2.20 now?). I had problems
with 2.16 crashing FB, but other than that, it's great -
better than the included version.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:28 PM
The killer of it all is that in QMB, I always set it up to be WAY out numberd. I have "fun" by hopping in a P-40 with 3 average wingmen against 4 109G-6's, 4 FW-190's, and 2 Me-110's for fun. You know what? 4/5 I win!!! So I dont mind being out numberd, but in the IL2Gen, there is a screw loose!!!! You cant get an edge at all!

I did try the Fin maps. Brewster against a flock of Pe-8's. LOL!!! That was almost fun! I took one down in a head-on shot. Great kill. I looped after passing the flock, and at the apex of my loop, 1 20MM round clipped my wing, and then as I spiraled down, a 7.62 shut down my engine. Wow. I wish the gunners were that good online when I was flying the Pe-8's.

Gib

"You dont win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:03 PM
Gibbage,
it seems we play a totally different game, because I enjoy the dinamic campaign a lot!
But it isn't... so I can suggest you few things:
1) play as oberst or polkovnik, so it's you that give the orders and can avoid such stupid low altitude interceptions...
2) learn to give the right orders at the right moment: when I encounter an enemy flight, I always order my wingman to cover me (and he does it pretty well) and order the others to attack fighters or bombers; if necessary, call home to have help from distant aircrafts (this is the case of the distant bf110s) and they will accelerate towards you;
3) if your mates go over the enemy airport, call them (I do it with 8+1, or 6+8+2, i.e. rejoin). Remember that's very important to preserve your mate's lives to go on in the campaign.
4) NEVER go for a h2h, it's a waste in any sense.

Ehm, I cant say I'm really an expert but I played IL2 and now FB since 1 year, about 2 ours/day.
With FB I played the finnish campaing, the vvs one and part of the german one: I flew Brewster, Bf109 f2, bf109g6, Hurricane I, Hurricane IIc, I16 24, Airacobra... and found that with every plane you must find the better strategy...
Anyway, it's true, the campaigns starts always in an "outnumbered" condition but it soon get balanced.
And, sometimes, I became to outnumber the enemy...

Best regard, Mattia.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:03 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:

In IL2 FB, its damn near impossible even at the
- most easy settings!!!


Sorry, it seems I'm the only one to disagree, but with the most easy settings, FB campaigns are just fine ! I score an average of 5 kills per mission, and I'm quite a noob in FB... You just have to pick the right plane.

Instead of the Mig, just try the same campaign in a Lagg3, or a Yak1 if it's available on the list. You'll be just fine. And as soon as the Yak1B gets available, you'll rack up 8 kills a mission or more.

It's true that you're outnumbered, it's true that wingmen are quite dumb, but honestly, unless you play full real, most of those 109s are easy targets. Sometimes missions can get really hard, but well it's challenging, and I've ended the war with 500+ victories /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:07 PM
Shardana wrote:

- 1) play as oberst or polkovnik, so it's you that
- give the orders and can avoid such stupid low
- altitude interceptions...



I wouldn't do that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It's quite fast to earn ranks and medals and it's part of the thrill. Don't waste your pleasure by starting with the highest rank, it only takes a few missions (if you do well) to become leader of your squad..

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:20 PM
Yep, get DCG, its WAY better and includes a lot of configurable parameters. The missions have a lot more variety also.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:41 PM
The campaign engine was made by a third-party amateuer ( a guy called 'Starshoy'). One of Oleg's bigger mistakes.

michapma
07-07-2003, 02:02 PM
I am currently enjoying the campaign mission in the Leningrad map with I-16s. I guess I have yet to discover all of this because the missions for me are quite enjoyable and often challenging. If you're disgusted with the other campaigns, try early war on the Russian side in the north. Then again, for me half the fun is flying in formation with TrackIR. I'm in big trouble when they make me mission leader, because I have the map and mini-map icons disabled. I'll have to print out my map, laminate it and mark the waypoints in advance, then navigate by sight. Hope it doesn't rain!

Cuec, don't approach the bombers from 6 o'clock if they're nailing you at 500m. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:05 PM
Several complaints here that I know are only because some of these guys are only just getting into the campaign. You`ll find later its not so bad.

Q: How do I get to later? I hear you say.

A: In Startup set Campaign to Instant Mission success. It`s not as bad as it sounds, it simply allows you to carry on a mission if you manage to bail out safely. If you die or get captured it`s still mission over.
I would start on difficult missions like this, do my best then run for home. Mission not complete, but I can fight the next day. I even tried to Kamikaze my I16 into a bomber then bail (very similar to what happened in reality).
Keep this up you will progress.

Q: Sniper AI is a pain!

A: Yep. Solution: NEVER go behind them. Gain height and attack from sides at speed, just keep going back and forth. He CAN`T touch you. But slow down and his `advanced` auto-tracking will headshot you.

Q: Wingmen do NOTHING!
A: Wingmen are indeed crap- at first. They do not volunteer to help. You have to padlock bogey on you and ORDER wingie to attck- then it works (Not easy while trying to dodge fire!)
This is because of their skill- later I`ve found the wingmen get very good. I`ve watched replays and seen my wingmen instantly attack a bogey coming on me that I had no idea about and chase him off! No orders from me!

Keep at it. It gets better- I completed the FB Campaign twice on medium settings, but now I use Lowengrin`s DCG cos it`s got a more dynamic Campaign and you never know who`s gonna win. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Zayets
07-07-2003, 02:13 PM
Oh! I forgot one thing! If you are leader and your flight is suppose to bomb something , which means all of you have bombs (either TB , He , P-47 and so on) , NEVER , I say it again , NEVER issue Rejoin order. They will drop their bombs like nothing will happen. I noticed this twice. First I was enroute to the objective , and the wingman was a bit away. I say to him to rejoin. Few seconds later i heard the bombs on the ground! The moron dropped his bombs! And i was in a He!!! Try it your self if you don't believe me!
Zayets out

http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

michapma
07-07-2003, 02:22 PM
For me the best part of the dynamic campaign is having the sense that a war is going on around you. I still would like to see even more stuff going on (ships in the water, reconnaisance aircraft, etc.), but I've gotten separated from my flight over target and headed back, only to discover an enemy car column (they made the mistake of shooting at me) and attack it. I also like the role-playing of having a squadron and history.

For me to play a static 3rd party campaign is to go back to the highly criticized static architecture of IL-2. Why do that? If you can't progress, enable immediate success. Even if it does affect the overall structure, you can proceed and not get stuck. The top Soviet aces had something like 50 or so kills, even though fighting the duration of the conflict and hundreds of combat sorties. I don't feel like I have to shoot everything in the sky down to succeed. If I have a target to bomb or intercept I do so, but personal and squad survival have the number 1 priority. If you can't get your wingmen to protect you, protect them. Stay near them. That might be why you get so many enemies on your tail.

I guess like in the real war, you have to keep trying and changing tactics until you succeed. Don't just give up. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

However, I agree 100% that improvmemnts in the AI would help immensely. I know that the AI already eats a lot of processor power, but I'm convinced that some basic changes would help immensely. Other than that, as Shardana has suggested, judicious use of radio commands helps a lot. It's just too bad that early-war VVS aircraft didn't have them (except maybe the flight leader).

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 03:08 PM
I gotta agree with michapma /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ps: Does enabling Instant Success really affect the overall structure? How? To me the Campaign still seems to flow back and forth- although the Allies still win in the end.

Message Edited on 07/07/0302:11PM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 03:45 PM
michapma wrote:
-
- Cuec, don't approach the bombers from 6 o'clock if
- they're nailing you at 500m.

I know Mike, but I´m still very very bad at head on attacks to bombers, even if I try to train in QMB...What I try to do is approach the bom,bers from down low at their 6, but sometimes, get higher than I should, and it´s then when they get me...

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

michapma
07-07-2003, 04:15 PM
What about slashing attacks from above or the side? I find head-on attacks to be of limited use, because they're hard to line up and the closure rate is so fast, but more because it takes so long to line them up.

I have the most success (i.e., highest survival rate) when I attack them from the side. Get well to the side of the bomber and maybe a bit above (so you can approach in a dive to have max speed when you arrive), then come in from the side, something like it's 8 to 10 o'clock (or 2 to 4 from the other side). Make sure you learn to calculate the deflection, and you will be hitting them with them having little chance at hitting you. Even the He-111 with its side gunners can only train one or maybe two guns on you at a time. The beauty of it is that after you have extended out the other side, you are already set up for your next pass. The difficulty is making the deflection shot, keeping altitude and maintaining SA. The bombers are likely to go evasive, especially smaller bombers like Stukas or IL-2s.

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 04:20 PM
I shall try that..I´m used to deflection shots, but not to that great amount of deflection...nevertheless, it seems a great tactic, so I´ll try that tonight in QMB against my own personal black beast: the Pe8...
Thx Mike

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 05:39 PM
If I call you Mike, will I get a response to my question? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

michapma
07-07-2003, 05:50 PM
Sorry... I didn't realize it was directed at me. I've never done a campaign with instant success enabled. In fact, since I like to take my time on campaign missions I haven't actually completed all that many of them or analyzed how the campaigns play out. It does stand to reason though, that if you always accept the outcome of your missions, you will lose a lot more aircraft than if you have to do them until you "get it right," so that your side will not fare as well in the end. However, I kind of doubt that it makes a huge difference to the war effort, this isn't CFS3. The major impact that I would anticipate is that your wingmates will not get good as fast as if you keep them alive, that kind of thing.

Cheers,
SKULLS_Chap /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 05:57 PM
First post.

I share all these frustrations, but really, your wingmen CAN get very good. My proof?

I had a guy join my squadron in early 42, I had been promoted to Polkovnik by then and was in charge (3rd IAK). This guy was a M.Lt. By the end of 1942 (November), this guy had 62 kills, was a Podpolkovnik, and was actually transferred out of my squadron! I felt his loss, I really did. Of course, I have over 350+ kills at this point because the operational tempo is so high (which is fine, I'm not playing this for ultra realism where I fly mission after mission without combat).

Flying a Yak-9. One more campaign on the Yak-9 (I'm on Stalingrad right now) and then I get my La-5s. W00t.

michapma
07-07-2003, 06:01 PM
P-39s! Getcher P-39s! /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 06:08 PM
The offline campaigns are challenging but come on folks, they aren't THAT tough.

I'm playing the Hungarian mission and yeah, sometimes I have to refly a mission a couple times to get through it all the way and get my success to move forward... but I'm averaging 2-3 kills per mission and my wingmen are gaining experience and have improved dramatically. The big thing you have to keep in mind is that everything is dynamic.. so if you go after their top pilots you will be knocking out their best talent. Likewise, if you lose your best pilots YOU are losing your best talent.

It all makes a difference!



________________________
Blood alone moves the wheels of history.

For Hungary!

Forum Friendly Sig:

http://www.francehongrie13.org/dp2/i/Copie_de_paprikagif6.jpg

-The Butcher

Callsign Turo in IL2:FB and WWII-Online

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 06:10 PM
Well, in example, in many campaigns (specially finland one) as you progress in the war, you actually see the front line move, and messages appear with briefings saying that such or such other airbase has been taken by the enemy...This must be the proof that your actions or your band actions really have an influence in the overall game progression.

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 06:23 PM
Gibbage,

Since my favorite plane is the La5FN/La7. I start the compaigns in 43, and grab my plane of choice. I use the most difficult settings, and always get 1-2 kills, and never die. I've had some good fights against Fw190's. Usually they outnumber me, but I have the better plane, so it equals out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
Lavochkins Are Best
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/kozedub3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 06:37 PM
Funny, I've not noticed this problem that much. I generally play campaigns with custom difficulty settings (most of the realistic FM stuff except for complex engines, redout/blackout, and with icons, padlock, and external cockpit-less view option enabled). I also use IL2Stab for the proper German and Finnish insignia, but presume it is not setting my campaigns up since I'm doing that within the FB interface. I also don't end a campaign if I get killed, but refly it instead. I do not refly missions I survive, even if I/we don't succeed in objective. If I pulled the plug on campaigns everytime I died, I'd never make it much past 5 missions, which is probably accurate for a lot of combat pilots.

So far I've made it several years through the Finnish B-239 campaign with over 35 kills (I-16, I-153, DB3/IL4, LAGGs, Migs, P-40's. I have died more than a few times, though. I'm also fairly far along in the Soviet Leningrad campaign flying the I-16, P-40 (which did of course explode on its own alot - please fix!), and now La-5. I'm also no slouch in the Hungarian campaign. I've also started some of the late war Luftwaffe campaigns fairly unsuccessfully, and can't fly anywhere in a Stuka mission without getting plugged by AA or fighters, so I agree some of the mission difficulty may be set high in some instances.

My biggest complaint about the missions in FB (both single mission and campaign) is the looooooong, boring flight times to objectives. This is a real pain, even with the autopilot on and the time compression cranked up. Even with these aids, it can take 15-20 minutes to reach your CAP or strike area. If there was one "fix" I'd like (even more than the exploding P-40s) would be a "jump to" hot key option so you could skip all that scenery and hop out of "hyperspace" when enemy planes/ground units are in visual range.

michapma
07-07-2003, 06:50 PM
I also accept the outcome of any mission in that if I can click accept, I do. I only refly if I've been killed or captured, or really put out. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:08 PM
zoomar wrote:

- My biggest complaint about the missions in FB (both
- single mission and campaign) is the looooooong,
- boring flight times to objectives. This is a real
- pain, even with the autopilot on and the time
- compression cranked up.


This is so true.

I don't mind being outnumbered, I don't mind my wingmen being sometimes dull, and I really think that the Pilot career mode is a genius idea (especially when it takes weeks to go through the whole war, 100 missions is a lifetime). But I do mind the x8 limit, and those long flights to the objective.

In the beginning you enjoy the graphics and the beautiful skies, but after 20 missions it gets boring...

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:12 PM
Accelerate time to 8x. It gets you there pretty fast..http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
Lavochkins Are Best
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/kozedub3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:34 PM
I also experienced all this %^%$%, but I went absolutely nuts when I got to escort a flight of level bombers (Il-4's I believe) equiped with TORPEDOES... These bombers had to destroy a convoy with these torpedoes and they actually dropped them near the convoy without any effect of course.
It is one thing that the DMG uses level bombers to attack convoys, but it just sucks when these are armed with torpedoes.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:40 PM
Try DCG, you can add Squads, asign a skin to each Squad, locate them at a certain base, it´s the best you can get as offline-player.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:52 PM
Hey Gibbage!. Back to the subject. LoL. Good post. Get IL2 Manager. With that you can chance the Campaine dificulty. If not ya have to find that .cfg file to alter it.

S!

<center> http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/post-2-1057134794.gif <CENTER> <FONT COLOR="RED"> Gibbage you rock Man!

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:57 PM
Yes, agree very much on that one, AI is too stupid, but that's why I dont fly offline much.

http://stellar.no-ip.info/ban/fb.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 08:19 PM
Alltho i got to agree . This is the only game where its fun to die. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

<center> http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/post-2-1057134794.gif <CENTER> <FONT COLOR="RED"> Gibbage you rock Man!

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 08:46 PM
you think thats bad. Fly the P40 Campaign and watch your whole sqd fly right into mountains. lol



P4-2.4Gig
1GigPC2100 DDR Ram
SoyoDragon Ulrtra Mobo
8X AGP Slot
GF-4Ti4600pny
20"Monitor
40GigHD
58xCDRW-Drive
DVDRom-Drive
SB-Live 5.1
DX-9.0
XP-PRO
So he tells me, "I ban the Me262 cause its turn rate is over modeled and it dosnt stall"... Then he takes off from his base in a Hurricane.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:08 PM
zoomar wrote:
- My biggest complaint about the missions in FB (both
- single mission and campaign) is the looooooong,
- boring flight times to objectives.

this will be adjustable withthe patch you'll be able to set about the distance you want missions to cover.
As a matter of fact you may be able to do this already with Stab not sure tho.

I fly on easy & just gain more height & plan an escape route in early war VVS. & try to stay over friendly territory as much as possible.

GLuck!

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:28 PM
I tried the Leningrad P-47 Campaign and what I got was killed in my first mission by flak at 3.5K Alt, no matter what I did differently I still got killed. LOL funny isn't it, well not one to stop getting punished I tried the Hungarian campaign 45 just to see if I would get to attack bombers. Long story short I got one mission flying CAP to attack IL2's coming for the Panzers, I totally wiped them out I got 6 on my own, not a single plane got to the panzers. I was happy with myself thinking well perhaps I can make a "what if". Mission ended and it said the Panzers were destroyed and the war lost! I was stunned and did it 3 more times although a few IL2's did get through the next tries, I still got the same effect. So why have the campaign at all if it wont change and it's one mission? I gave up and only fly QMB or online, which we all know is a feat in itself.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center> <center> www.361stvfg.com</center> (http://www.361stvfg.com</center>)

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/CindyII.jpg> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:34 PM
What bugs me is that the AI is simply hopeless at seeing the ground. You have to be extra careful to make sure that in the FMB you don't pilot your AI friends into the ground. If you fly an Me262 A-2, you loose squad members too fast, even though they're supposed to be aces like Hienz Baer, Gunther Lutzow and others. Too many bugs with the AI.

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 01:22 AM
Can anyone link me to some of the 3rd party campain builders? Sounds interesting.

As for attacking bombers, I typically do slashing runs, but with a slight yo-yo and criss cross. Im always comming down and to the side. It gives me a much bigger target (wings) then just side or behind. Also its rather difficult for gunners to get aim on me.

First problem. I order 1 wing to attack fighters. They all go after a lone I-16. 2nd, I order 2nd wing to attack bombers. They come in from the 6 and get killed EZ. 3rd, the other 11 I-16's that the 1st wing were ignoring are on my 6, constantly sending a stream of tracers "in my general direction." 4th, the F2 that I am in cant do SQUAT to bombers. In the end, after 10 or so passes no bombers are shot down, im trailing smoke, and the target is quickly approaching. I get desperate and lower my speed and come in on the 6. I get behind the SB and hose the engine with all guns blazing. After about 15 seconds of constant fire, 1 of a few things WILL happen. 1, I get the bomber as it looses a wing, 2, gunner nails my engine, turning me into a big glider, 3, my wingman shoots THROUGH me to get to the bomber, 4, I-16 gets me, 5, I peel off at the last moment to see I have only "tickled" him.

Why in gods name do they send F2's for bomber intercept? It took me 10 passes to shoot down a damn U-2 bi-plane a few missions back, and they want me to shoot down medium bombers?

I remember one time on the same mission I have the MG-151 nose cannon shot off. Only had the two puny guns left. I matched a lone SB bomber and shot the left engine from 50M away for about 2 mins. Nothing happened. Finally my smoking engine quit and I had to ditch.

Well my aim is not bad. I fly P-39's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Its just the F2 cant shoot down crud. Cant even shoot down a WWI bi-plane. UGH!!! Im giving up on the F2.

Gib

"You dont win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>




"You dont win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 01:40 AM
OK good valid points made, although sometimes these threads get used to just make general moans that `it`s not fair!`

eg, Gibbage1 wrote:
`I order 2nd
- wing to attack bombers. They come in from the 6 and
- get killed EZ. `

I find wingmen have an uncanny ability to shoot down bombers from six without dying themselves.

and

`Why in gods name do they send F2's for bomber
- intercept? It took me 10 passes to shoot down a
- damn U-2 bi-plane a few missions back, and they want
- me to shoot down medium bombers?`

Well you can`t really blame FB for this. Often in war, aircraft not specifically designed for the job were sent to take on objectives. It still happens today. The trick is dealing with it and carrying out your orders to the best of your ability.



`Can anyone link me to some of the 3rd party campain
- builders? Sounds interesting. `

Try: http://www.members.shaw.ca/lowengrin/index.html

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 01:40 AM
gib have you tried the experten campagne from mudmovers?it s the best around,i mostly fly offline and have tried all the dcg and as we all know the ai needs fixing,but the experten camp.is great,hard (if you play d.i.d)but quite enjoyable.some of the single missions are good too,stuka day
,swallows nest.sturmovik tech also has some good one luft training is fun and only 6 missions long,night fights,strafe
a train in blizzard.hope this helps,S!

After it was refeuled i climbed in.With many manipulations the mechcanics started the turbines.I followed their actions with the greatest of interest.The first one started quite easily.the second caught fire.In no time the whole engine was on fire.Luckily as a fighter pilot i was used to getting quickly out of the cockpit.The fire was quickly put out.The second plane caused no trouble - Adolf Galland (first time in a ME262)

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 01:47 AM
I thought michapma made some pretty good points earlier about Dynamic Campaign Mode and so I played a few missions on the VVS side earlier. Lovely Leningrad map and tackling Soviet missions again with renewed vigour. I also felt that losses were lighter on VVS side than LW.

I found, not that I've had time on my hands tonight or anything, the following;

LW (played through till October '41)

600 missions by squadron
190 kills
61 pilots killed

VVS (played through till August '41)

181 missions by squadron
58 kills
9 pilots killed

LW AI is worse than VVS AI!

michapma
07-08-2003, 03:49 PM
Gibbage, bombers are hard to take out without cannons. I remember reading from Saburo Sakai's account Samurai! that the Zero pilots would shoot and shoot at American bombers (I wanna say the B-24) from close range, trying to figure out the best way to bring them down. One of the things they found was the head-on pass. The VVS studied carefully what armament was needed to take out Ju-88s and He-111s efficiently, they ended up settling on a two-cannon arrangement, though later Lavochkins eventually managed with just the one cannon.

Maybe you should try for some pilot kills if you only have machine guns. When in your slashing attacks from the top you have a bigger target because of the wings, keep in mind that the wings are not a critical point!

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 06:03 PM
BOMBER ATTACKS

Some bombers have no belly gunners so of course a low six approach is good. Otherwise, the slashing attacks from above and rom the side are productive, and it seems to help a lot to show the enemy a very small profile of your plane when escaping after the pass. Turn or climb too soon and you give the gunners a larger target.

TOUGH MISSIONS

There are some missions that are particularly tough, for example those deep in enemy territory where your approach to the target is low so you can cover your bombers and you are jumped by superior numbers who have an altitude advantage, while AA is taking its toll as well.

Maybe it's paranoia, but at times the enemy planes also seem to concentrate on you exclusively, no matter how many times you replay the mission.

If I'm not in command of the flight, there are missions where in replay I will simply divert (even in a fighter) and simply attack the nearest enemy ground target and return to base and end the mission if the bombers are on a suicide assignment.

AUTO PILOT

This game is a rare one indeed, because with Complex Engine Management and the great feel of the flight model and the great graphics and planes, its fun to fly even when not in combat. But during replays of a failed mission, often I'll fly 8X through the beginning stages.

But I often set some of the CEM, since the Artificial Idiots can't do it. I'll stage the supercharger, change the fuel mix, and set the prop pitch if necessary. By the way, you'll find that the AI will fly your Bf109 Emil better and faster if you manually set the prop to 80, otherwise the AI will struggle to keep up with the prop at 100. Also, you'll save fuel on the long trips.

AI

Kinda dumb at times. But both friendly and enemy AI will at least run out of ammo, and sometimes friendly radio chatter announces the fact. I wish we could also warn our flight members when we run out, or when we need to return to base.

Duncan D

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 06:16 PM
Is it only me or what? Am I the only one not getting all these bugs?

1- I never have friendlies crashing into the ground or into other friendlies.
2- AAA is accurate, but I almost never get shot down by it, while I do get some holes in my plane. Can´t speak of ships as I haven´t encountered them yet.
3- My AI mates perform quite well...Most of the time my squad leader has more kills than me, and the rest of them have at least one kill. A few are shot down.
4- Since I use IL2 Stab, I´m never outnumbered, or the max I´ve flown against were 9 enemies vs. 8 friendlies.
5- No p40 explosion bug.

errr....that´s it for the moment...So, my opinion is that IN MY CASE, campaigns are well balanced, challenging and quite funny...I really enjoy playing offline.



<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 06:40 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:LW AI is worse than VVS AI!
-

Not really. It's the same AI. It (like all sims)does better at turn fighting which suits the VVS planes. Also there are some issues with different aircraft.
Also VVS has more defensive missions & weak LW guns may allow more VVS pilots to bail. Not sure tho.




"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 09:51 PM
I did notice that about the enemy altitude. Flying a Blue campaign and get various altitudes to fly at in the briefing from 1500 to 2500. The Red fighters ALWAYS fly at 3000 meters, so now I fly at 3500 no matter what the stupid brief says. Other than that I'm enjoying it, but I do have the "CampaignDifficulty=Easy" setting on.

7./JG26_HarryM

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 11:07 PM
that comment I made was very much tongue in cheek. I should have made that clearer.

Of course its the same AI and I dare say percentage losses will start to even up once I have flown more VVS missions.

I agree with your observations fwiw.

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 11:58 PM
Gibb, you hit a sore spot of mine that's been festering for a while. Sorry for the long post in advance, but here's my observations to date, some of which have already been reported as bugs. Since the patch is essentially done, this list won't help any changes get made 'till the next patch (if any), but it'll make me feel better (and maybe explain a few things to the new guys wondering what's going on.)

AI FM:
- Doesn't suffer from control heaviness at high speed, unlike player FM. That is, no reduction in pitch/roll rate with high speeds.
- Infinite fuel load.
- Doesn't overheat.
- Doesn't suffer from engine cut out or stopping due to negative "g" in carburetor-equipped aircraft.
- Can accelerate/decelerate more aggressively than the player FM. Player FM has a (sometimes large) delay between throttle/flap commands and affects, AI is instantaneous, and more effective than the player's available acceleration/deceleration. In particular, this makes forcing the AI to overshoot almost impossible.

General AI:
- Still runs into each other too often.
- Entire flight sorts to first bandit within 5km, ignoring all others in formation/area. This winds up looking like a soccer match for 5 year olds. If I'm the first one to the fight, the entire bandit formation sorts to me, and I have a "kick me" sign on my back for the rest of the fight. For rookies, this might actually be realistic, but other levels of AI should be able to sort to several different targets.
- Still sees through clouds, haze, rain and snow.
- Still has X-ray vision through its own airframe. Also sees in all directions at once, making surprise bounces impossible, even from the sun.
- AI gunnery is much too accurate at high deflection, and much too inaccurate at low deflection.
- AI suffers no effects of red/black outs.
- AI doesn't use tactics suited to their airframe. Stall fighting a 109!?!


Wingman AI:
- "Return to Base", while effective in getting boneheaded AI wingmen out of my way, nullifies all further orders. Even if bounced after told to RTB, wingmen will not engage. Like horses, once the wingies are told to go back to the barn, the only thing on their minds is the feed-bag.
- Stops listening to/acknowledging some commands halfway through flight (not related to the RTB command discussed above.) Will still acknowledge commands not previously used (usually with the message "unable to comply" as the commands the AI still recognizes are usually not applicable.)
- "Rejoin" command is executed as "Return to previous waypoint" by any flights other than the leader's. On long missions, this can mean the other flights are WAY behind the leader, and of no use when the fight is joined.
- Won't attack ground targets within sight when ordered to (gives "unable to comply" response.) Can attack same targets when leader padlocks and orders "attack my target". Conversely, wingies can "attack my target", even when that target is well beyond their vision.
- "Cover me" apparently means, "shoot at the target I'm chasing, and shoot through me if possible." "Cover me" should mean, "stay behind my 3-9 line and shoot anything behind me. Other than that, key the mike and whistle. That way, when the whistling stops, I'll know to break."
- Wingmen are programmed to go after damaged bandits. While this seems logical on the surface, what this actually does is guarantee my wingies will go after an aircraft I've damaged on the first pass before I can finish it off, or go after a burning bandit I've left for dead, killing it five seconds before it would've blown up. In short, this AI code guarantees kill stealing.

Enemy AI:
- "Veteran" is apparently synonymous with "as twitchy as a 14 year old after a six-pack of Jolt." "Ace" gets a twelve-pack. If I wanted a twitch game, I'd play a FPS on line with real 14 year-old twitch freaks. Veterans and Aces should fly smarter and shoot better. As it stands now the only difference is the amount of twitching they do end game.
- "Rookie" pilots can perform well executed rolling scissors, stall fights, and perfect head-on gun passes. This doesn't sound like the rookie pilots I've been reading about in "Black Cross, Red Star" and other books. They also are able to consistently fly to their aircraft's stall limit without stalling/spinning. Either they need to back off from continuous, stable, maximum performance, or they need to depart more often.
- AI has instantaneous reflexes in general. Forcing them to overshoot is very difficult. AI should have a set time to react to maneuvers, greater for rookies, less for veterans and aces (simulating anticipation gained from experience.)

FM:
- I-16 engine cannot be restarted in flight, even with windmilling RPM. The equipment used to start the aircraft on the ground (the Huck's starter) isn't magic, it just turned the engine over with enough RPM for it to catch. If the prop is turning (whether by air or a ground starter), there is still fuel flowing to the engine (via an engine, battery, or generator powered fuel pump) and the magnetos are still working, the engine should start.
- P-47 stall characteristics are too vicious (abrupt and without warning.) The aircraft's actual stall characteristics have been described by Corky Meyer as subdued enough for low-time, wartime-trained pilots.
- The P-39's stall characteristics have been watered down, in opposition to pilot descriptions. This is even more pronounced for the LaGG-3, which according to the reading I've done had some nasty stall habits, even in the landing configuration.
- Stall modeling in general is too benign. Most aircraft as modeled lack sufficient pitch authority to stall with smoothly applied full aft stick. Only abrupt aft stick (forcing a pitch rate sufficient to overshoot stall AOA) can get most aircraft to stall in either level flight or turning accelerated stalls.
- Over "g" and the resulting structural damage is currently not possible.
- P-40's currently explode at ~550 kph IAS. Q max for this airframe was considerably higher.
- Me-262 engine drag model is incorrect. The aircraft should not decelerate to ~200 kph as soon as the engines are shut down in flight, regardless of decent angle.
- Engine spool up times are very long. 19 seconds from idle to full power!?! This is for the LaGG-3 series 4, though all aircraft have a similar delay (who knew that's why they REALLY were called LaGG's!) That's how long first generation jets took. Pilots commented on the long spool up times when they transitioned to jets. They did NOT comment, "this is what we were used to from the previous generation of props." If you have any documentation proving these long piston engine reaction times, present it. Otherwise, give us control of our engines back. By way of comparison, my friend's T-6 (Harvard MkIV actually) has a constant speed prop, and the engine advanced to full power within about five seconds from idle, as quickly as he moved the throttle forward on takeoff. Advancing it faster would have given torque/p-factor problems, and throttle bursting could damage the engine, but WWII vintage aero engines do not take 19 seconds to come up to full power.
- Bf-109 parasitic drag is too low. It gains speed much too quickly in the decent, and engine off (prop pitch to 0%) glides like a championship sailplane. I've glided one 40+ km from 2500m altitude.
- LaGG-3's radiator is too effective. I will not overheat with the radiator set to 4 or more. This is not the same aircraft I have read about in "Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War: Vol. 1".
- Aircraft in general overheat too slowly compared to historical references, and the original Il-2.
- I am less sure about radiator flap drag, though I find it hard to believe that radiator flaps open knock 80 kph off the Fw-190D-9's top-end, as they do in the game.
- Fw-190 climb rates, and especially acceleration, seem low compared to historical references and other aircraft in the game with similar P/W ratios (the primary factor driving these performance aspects.)
- Fw-190 stick forces become heavy at high speed, contrary to historical references. This feature is appropriate to the Bf-109, and is accurately modeled for that aircraft (though not for the AI version of the FM.)
- The bomber bug. When I engage twin-engined bombers (Russian or Axis) and damage one, many command inputs I make to my aircraft become intermittent until the bomber in question is destroyed. Pitch, roll and yaw commands will be initially effective, then drive to 0 after a fraction of a second. Correcting requires me to constantly adjust/reset my command inputs, resulting in ratcheting or porpoising as I continually re-apply flight control inputs. Flap and light commands also become temporary.

DM:
- LaGG-3, I-16, and Fw-190 currently take no airframe damage from rifle-caliber machine guns (or apparently from flak near misses.) Given the AI's inability to fly 109's effectively, the good capabilities of even rookie AI in Russian aircraft, and the immunity of the I-16 AI FM from the weaknesses in the player versions FM, this makes an early war German career ridiculously difficult.
- If certain weapons have particular loadouts (such as Mk108 cannon alternating HE and AP shells) tell us, and let us change this if possible (if pilots were actually able to.) Right now we're left to guess that the multiple hits from our Mk108's that do no damage are because it was an AP round going through an empty part of the airframe. If we were able to alter the loadouts, we could experiment and make up for the lack of documentation, as well as find a load that is most effective for our style of fighting.

Misc.:
- Flak is either too accurate, has too great a rate of fire, or both. Attacking airfields or boats is currently suicide. Consider increasing Flak's reaction time (allowing one or two passes before opening fire, since gunners rarely slept at their guns), reducing accuracy and/or ROF, or all of the above.
- Bailing out over friendly territory currently results in mission failure. Why bother offering a bail out option? Bailing out over friendly territory should allow continuation of the career, even with "instant success" deselected.
- Padlock is whacked. Padlock gets dropped whenever the target is high or aft in the canopy, even though the target is still clearly visible, and not near the edge of the canopy frame. This is exactly the part of the canopy where I need padlock the most, such as when I'm timing a gun jink or reversal on a bandit at 5 or 7 o'clock. Padlock is a concession to reality made to compensate for trying to dogfight while looking through a 17" (or 19" or 21") porthole that is our monitor. It does me little good if it only works for guys in front of me. In real life, I'd swivel my head to watch the bandit as he transitions fore and aft during maneuvering. Here I need padlock to do that for me, and do it when the bandit is visible through the canopy. ANY PART of the canopy
- New aircraft models are appreciated and welcome. Until the high altitude physics model is fixed though, does it make sense to introduce aircraft that predominantly operated at high altitude such as the Me-163 and Ta-152? Third party programmers may be making the models, but 1C engineers will have to write the FMs for these aircraft, distracting them from fixing existing FM problems as a result.
- Bomber Gunner arcs are too generous. If I approach a Ju-87 from low 6 o'clock for example, I shouldn't receive rounds from the tail gunner unless he's damaging his own tail and rear fuselage (like I would if I were manning the gunners position and fired in the same direction.)
- Document, document, document. Manuals cost money to print and ship, but PDF's are a lot cheaper, in production costs if not man-hours. There is a lot of really good, detail oriented programming and engineering in this sim, but we're left to guess whether any given aspect is a feature or a bug because there is no supporting documentation. As an example (in addition to ammo loadouts, throttle lag, mixture effects and armor locations/coverage), the foldout card is nice, but doesn't cover many of the instruments/lights on individual aircraft panels. You went to all the trouble to reproduce an I-16 panel authentically, why limit the appreciation of that to the five guys on the planet who have actually flown the real thing?

Blotto

"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter craft, no matter how technically advanced." - A. Galland

"Look, do you want the jets, or would you rather I slap the props back on?" - W. Messerschmitt

michapma
07-09-2003, 08:40 AM
Blottogg,

I've also noted most of the points you have made, even if sometimes less distinctly or emphatically than you have noted. Thanks very much for writing all this down!

You mentioned the AI pilots not flying according to the tactics their airframe demands, and I and most everyone have observed that too. However, and of course this is not meant to nullify your point, I wonder how many of us disregard the tactics our own airframe demands? How many times have I caught myself in an Ishak chasing a 109 for well over 20 seconds while ignoring my own wingmen? If I am distanced from my flight and get a 109 on my tail, and especially if I get a whole train of them, I use my maneuverability to drag the fight to my team. It's frustrating to have to do this, but I often find myself surprised at how well my inexperienced AI engage the enemy (I-16s in Leningrad). I also have noticed that it's typically the experienced pilots and flight leaders who are getting killed. They often get kills and then are killed in turn. I guess it has to do with the latching on to the leader you mentioned.

I think I've noticed that flak is often not as bad flying early war for the VVS. Although it is difficult to approach even a truck column with two AA guns, I get the feeling that the AA is thicker in later parts of the war, with more AAA positions installed. So those of you who are starting your campaign late in the war might consider treating flak with a great deal of respect.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 08:54 AM
agree with everything blottog has posted


It would be good if the AI could eventually be tailored a bit more as well. For example, as commander select an "agressive" or "conservative" profile for your wing.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 11:39 AM
Mike, you've got a good point. I've caught myself T&B-ing in 109's more times than I'd like to admit. What I've seen from the AI flying the 109 is that the initial bounce from high altitude is good (the head-on accuracy of the AI helps... this is another reason it's hard to hold on to AI ace wingies - they're usually at the pointy end and wind up trading PK's with the AI enemy, but I digress), the AI's follow on tactic is to throw the boat anchor out and stall fight. Seeing the AI fly around in a 109 at ~170 kph with the flaps out, after starting with a 1500m altitude advantage, brings a tear to my eye. It seems to be the default tactic (I've noticed this for 110's too.)
As it stands now, the game is fun and playable (for me at least, as I'm not having hardware issues.) I'm having fun flying the sim, but I've had to go to some lengths to do so in the campaigns. My German campaigns are on hold until the patch comes out for the reasons I've mentioned previously. Ditto for my Russian Leningrad campaign. After going from LaGG-3 to I-16 type 18 (because at first I didn't know you could change ALL the aircraft for a campaign using the pull down lists in the campaign generator at the start of the campaign... another documentation issue), I'm grounded with the P-40E until the patch arrives to let me get above 550 kph without blowing up. My first campaigns had clouds, turbulence and no instant success, but I've changed that with later campaigns to try to fly by the same rules the AI is using. These features would be cool to use, but not if I'm the only one affected by them. I'm still flying with CEM, overheating and g effects. I guess that makes me a little sadomasochistic considering the current AI FM.
I've also found myself using sim tactics to stay alive, instead of real world tactics. Forget the unobserved bounce. I'll blitz through the bad guys, knowing they'll all target me, then tell my wingies to engage, and hope their low deflection shooting is better (or less atrocious) than the enemy AI. Or I'll tell my guys to engage, and then I'll spin a quick 360 and start getting unobserved kills as the enemy fixates on my wingies. This would get me court-martialled IRL, but it works off line. I've also figured out that if there are bullet-proof airplanes in the sim, I may as well be flying one. I've got over 500 kills in 120 missions in a LaGG-3 series 4, without using CampaignDifficulty=Easy (I did use this setting in my German campaigns to try to level the field. It's an appreciated feature, though I'd like to see it on the difficulty page instead of buried in the conf.ini file.) My biggest challenges in Russian campaigns are getting a kill before my wingies finish everyone off (I've edited allies out of missions with the FMB to give myself a chance... I'd never do that with a German campaign), and keeping the I-16's engine running in turbulence (the bouncing is enough to kill the engine in level flight occasionally.) I'm not accusing anyone at 1C of bias, it's just that as the bugs currently fall, Russian campaigns are more enjoyable, if no more tactically realistic than Axis campaigns. The Finnish campaign I completed was fun with the B-239, but don't try to use the Hurri. Fighting the current I-16 DM with 8x.303 is like dogfighting a basketball.
I dumped a bunch of stuff I've been accumulating over the months all at once, and that made me sound like a patch whiner. The guys at 1C put a LOT of work into FB, and it shows in many different ways. Their achievements unfortunately also highlight the shortcomings of the sim by the greater contrast between the two. I didn't complain about the DM in EAW because it was a simple bubble for all the aircraft. In FB, the attention to detail makes flaws more obvious when the details are unevenly applied. The guys at 1C are working on the patch and add-on, and haven't given up on this community despite our whining. I probably would have. Until the patch, I'll fly campaigns that are still fun, or maybe go outside and get a bit more of a life.

Blotto

"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter craft, no matter how technically advanced." - A. Galland

"Look, do you want the jets, or would you rather I slap the props back on?" - W. Messerschmitt

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 12:05 PM
well i'm glad to see i'm not the only one with this problem!
whew!.

try the VVS p-40 campian and see how you do! lol
every thing is fine against those b-239'sin finland but when you come up against those 109F-2's your totaly screw'd!
even on the easist setting in the game i cant get past them!
you only have 6 p-40's escourting 8 i-16's on a bomb run.
and your out numberd 2 to 1!
it' crazy. i gave up on it over 2 months ago. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Gib how is the modeling going on that photon torpedo i requested for the p-40 going"? mabey if you wip me up a gattling gun for the warhawk i might have a chance against those F-2's./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<CENTER><CENTER><FONT COLOR="LIGHT BLUE">~My at last i'm in compliance, Umm well Sorta Sig~
<CENTER>http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/post-2-1053396877.jpg
<CENTER>Please visit the 310thVF/BS Online at our NEW web site @:
<CENTER><FONT COLOR="orange"> http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron/
<CENTER>A proud member Squadron of IL-2 vUSAAF
<CENTER>310th VF/BS Public forum:
<CENTER><FONT COLOR="YELLOW"> http://invisionfree.com/forums/310th_VFBG/
<CENTER><CENTER><FONT COLOR="YELLOW">
Proud Sponsor of IL-2 Hangar Forums
<CENTER> Visit the Hangar at:
http://srm.racesimcentral.com/il2.shtml
<CENTER> <FONT COLOR="RED">

<center> http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/post-2-1057134794.gif
<CENTER> <FONT COLOR="RED"> Gibbage you rock Man!

michapma
07-09-2003, 12:08 PM
Blottogg, I personally didn't take your points as whining. They are well thought out, objectively commented upon and above all not rashly arrived at; the community needs more of this style and spirit of criticism and you should know that.

It becomes clear that Forgotten Battles is the cr¨me de la cr¨me when we realize that our standard of comparison has to be reality instead of other combat simulators. Of course historic realism has to be the best and ultimate standard, but I've observed that almost without exception the game is always held up to that standard and nothing lower. Perhaps there is no lower standard to which it can reasonably be held...

Regards,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
07-09-2003, 12:11 PM
Copperhead, the P-40 was great at diving attacks. If the flutter and explosions are preventing your from employing this tactic at present, please consider trying the campaign again after the patch. Climb well above the I-16s and be ready to dive when they get attacked.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 02:40 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- that comment I made was very much tongue in cheek. I
- should have made that clearer.
-
- Of course its the same AI and I dare say percentage
- losses will start to even up once I have flown more
- VVS missions.
-
- I agree with your observations fwiw.
-
-
-
-OOPs,ny bad. Now where DID i leave my sense of humor??




"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 07:17 AM
michapma wrote:
- Copperhead, the P-40 was great at diving attacks. If
- the flutter and explosions are preventing your from
- employing this tactic at present, please consider
- trying the campaign again after the patch. Climb
- well above the I-16s and be ready to dive when they
- get attacked.
-
- Cheers,
- Mike
-

Mike, Copperhead...
why don't have a try with the P40 and the flutter effect off in the difficulty settings ?
I once did it in QMB and the p40 reached and surpassed 500Kmh without exploding... well, at around 500Kmh it shaked like a mad but soon after, when speed inreased, it became stable again.
I know it's not very fair to play without flutter effect, but waiting for the patch.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

michapma
07-10-2003, 02:30 PM
That's not a bad idea, except that I'm still flying an I-16 campaign. Can't handle too many at once, kills immersion. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>