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View Full Version : OT For the gun buffs : AK series getting competition ?



Celeon999
07-08-2007, 05:08 AM
Im talking about reliability.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Everybody seems to get their hands on them for a try out ....except the german army http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

You gotta love it when english speaking people say "Heklar and Coke" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

H&K 416 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObXZMepn3SI)

Discovery Channel throws the 416 into sand and water (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zSPwZXfDnM&mode=related&search=) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif (Also known as the Kalashnikov test) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What do YOU think ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Goose_Green
07-08-2007, 05:40 AM
No offence to the Americans, but I wish they could work on their pro-nounciation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Having said that - that looks like a great performer. I wish the UK MOD would take notice and finally get rid of that SA80 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Celeon999
07-08-2007, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by Goose_Green:
No offence to the Americans, but I wish they could work on their pro-nounciation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Having said that - that looks like a great performer. I wish the UK MOD would take notice and finally get rid of that SA80 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Is it that bad ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I thought the initial problems with the mags were solved ?

Liddabit
07-08-2007, 06:28 AM
My husband loves this weapon. He used it exclusivly during his latest time in Iraq, half the phone calls he just talked about the darn thing. :P

Most his privatly owned weapons are HK though, I guess hes a fanboy:P

klcarroll
07-08-2007, 07:12 AM
Two Points immediately come to mind;

1) I simply can't imagine why H&K would abandon their elegantly simple and reliable delayed blowback roller-lock bolt in favor of a Kalashnikov style gas system and an M-16 style rotary bolt. I have used H&K weapons for many years, and have NEVER had any problems in the field with the delayed blowback weapons. (As the old axiom goes: .....If it isn't broke, .....don't fix it!)

Can ANYONE tell me about a serious, consistent, reliability problem with ANY of the H&K weapons using the Delayed Blowback System (G3 style action)????????


2) ALL ten inch 5.56 weapons are a joke from a ballistics standpoint. You're taking a cartridge that was originally designed to do it's "burn" in a 20 inch tube, and giving it half a barrel. The result is seriously reduced velocity (and effectiveness), and DRAMATICALLY increased muzzle blast and flash.

Now, ....... I'll acknowledge that the M262 round with it's 77 grain bullet partially addresses the ballistics problem, but firing the weapon, even with that round, is still a major "pyrotechnic event"! I have a Ruger AC-556K which features a 13 inch tube: ........and that weapon is probably 80% of the reason that I don't hear very well today! (Sometimes there just isn't time to pop in a set of earplugs before firing.)


.....And concerning the complaints about "American Pronunciation": ......Would you be happier if we started calling the company "Rum & Coke"????? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

*

Celeon999
07-08-2007, 08:49 AM
ALL ten inch 5.56 weapons are a joke from a ballistics standpoint. You're taking a cartridge that was originally designed to do it's "burn" in a 20 inch tube, and giving it half a barrel. The result is seriously reduced velocity (and effectiveness), and DRAMATICALLY increased muzzle blast and flash.

Point taken. But the 5.56 mm have some advantages too. They cause a lot more damage in the body of a unprotected enemy than a 7.62mm .

Under 150m distance the projectile tends to spin over shortly after entering the body. Celeon feels uncomfortable while visualising this thought. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I agree that its time to consider a new caliber though as combat distances are increasing again with the use of modern recoinassance measures.

For that just use its big brother the HK 417 which uses 7.62 mm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/da/HK417_20_Inch_Barrel.jpg

I didnt had much of a chance to check out the G3 but i remember the pain in my shoulder... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AND the pain in my back after carrying it for a while. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I liked the G36 much more although it also has some annoying flaws which hopefully will be solved in the G36A2 upgrade program.

For example :

The dual sightings used for the army version are c*r*a*p* . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

They lack dirt protection and break too easily.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/HKV_G36.jpg


The stock is also rubbish. Its too thin at some points and therefore breaks real easily when the weapon falls down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

What does this look like ..? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

You fall on the battlefield and when they try to put your helmet on your grave marker...they cant put the helmet on because that stupid stock broke as you had hit the deck.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Goose_Green
07-08-2007, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Goose_Green:
No offence to the Americans, but I wish they could work on their pro-nounciation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Having said that - that looks like a great performer. I wish the UK MOD would take notice and finally get rid of that SA80 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Is it that bad ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I thought the initial problems with the mags were solved ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes, but I was merely making a reference to how bad the project was managed in the first place. Strangely enough components if not all of the weapon are made by H&K.

klcarroll
07-08-2007, 09:19 AM
I agree that its time to consider a new caliber though as combat distances are increasing again with the use of modern recoinassance measures.

Agreed! .....If close quarters combat is going to dictate shorter weapons, with their reduced muzzle velocities; ....then maybe it's time to look at standardizing on one of the 6mm/5.56 "wildcats" that have appeared lately.

6mm projectiles are commercially available in weights up to 107 grains. This additional mass would significantly increase both "close range stopping power" and downrange efficientcy.

.....Also, with the combination of the right "fast burning" powder, and the larger "piston area" afforded by the 6mm projectile, it would be possible to minimize the negative effects that ultra-short barrels have on muzzle velocity.

P.S. .......You didn't like my "Rum & Coke" joke???

*

Celeon999
07-08-2007, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by klcarroll:


P.S. .......You didn't like my "Rum & Coke" joke???

*


Sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But Rum & Coke in combination with assault rifles creates a problem which no sight can compensate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif


POST 5000 by the way ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif


Im spending too much time here ... should buy me a life http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

PhantomKira
07-08-2007, 02:38 PM
Any consideration on H&K's part of the Bullpup design? It certainly helps maintain barrel length in a more compact weapon. Thinking the British L85 for example.

It may be a Germanic language, but I doubt there are many Americans that speak anywhere near coherant German. (Nevermind spelling coherant English... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif I give up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

5000! Yay Celeon!!!

klcarroll
07-08-2007, 03:00 PM
Personally, I've never cared for Bullpups: ........Ergonomic problems with charging handle, ejection port, and magazine location.

.....But this is simply my personal preference.

*

Celeon999
07-08-2007, 03:04 PM
The Bullpup design has one major problem. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

As the chamber is really close to the stock of the rifle, the projectile cases eject at the same point of the weapon.

Now there are two types of soldiers. Left handed and right handed ones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now imagine a right handed soldier firing such a weapon from his shoulder. No problem when the cases get also ejected to the right side.

Now give the same weapon to left handed soldier.

What would happen ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The only two bullpup weapons H&K ever created were the G-11 and the CAWS and both never made beyond prototype status.

The G-11 (still my secret love no matter the problems) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif avoided this typical bullpup problem by using caseless ammunition http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now thats a way to solve a problem huh ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Celeon's secret fav weapon, the G-11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdErfyYeJeU)

The last manufactured prototype, the G11k2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPjBkCN2dkc&mode=related&search=)

A few thousand were build and are stored in some armory where they spend the last 20 years with catching dust.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Celeon tries to find out where http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif.....needs one......

PhantomKira
07-08-2007, 05:03 PM
Not as knowledgeable about weapons as I thought I was...

I got how caseless ammunition works, using solid instead of powdered propellant (Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caseless_ammunition)). Seems to make sense.

So, what would be the pros/cons, of powdered versus solid propellant? Not from a cased versus caseless ammunition standpoint, but rather how does powder form affect the efficency of the propellant itself?

Liddabit
07-08-2007, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by klcarroll:
Two Points immediately come to mind;



2) ALL ten inch 5.56 weapons are a joke from a ballistics standpoint. You're taking a cartridge that was originally designed to do it's "burn" in a 20 inch tube, and giving it half a barrel. The result is seriously reduced velocity (and effectiveness), and DRAMATICALLY increased muzzle blast and flash.

Now, ....... I'll acknowledge that the M262 round with it's 77 grain bullet partially addresses the ballistics problem, but firing the weapon, even with that round, is still a major "pyrotechnic event"! I have a Ruger AC-556K which features a 13 inch tube: ........and that weapon is probably 80% of the reason that I don't hear very well today! (Sometimes there just isn't time to pop in a set of earplugs before firing.)


.....And concerning the complaints about "American Pronunciation": ......Would you be happier if we started calling the company "Rum & Coke"????? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

*


The hubinator says the 16.5 inch variant which he uses is still well sized for moot..mout?mowt? situations and gets rid of most of the problems you pointed out.

Goose_Green
07-08-2007, 09:35 PM
The one thing I will say in defence of the SA80 is that it's handy in FIBUA or FISH scenarios where it's predecessor, the FN-FAL, was far too cumbersome due to it's barrel length.

However, I honestly think the British Army would have suffered in the Falkands if they had the SA80 at the time, with its smaller calibre and it's early problems (Mk A1's) the battles at Goose Green and Mt Longdon etc would have been a totally different outcome. Sometimes I think the 7.62 round is far better than the 5.56.

It goes to prove that the LSW version of the SA80 was never popular as a semi replacement for the GPMG when the GPMG was re-instated as a section fire support weapon. When you have a couple of those beasts in the SF role you can't lose!

Celeon999
07-09-2007, 08:26 AM
What i wonder is why is the SA80 so heavy ?

I remember seeing polymer parts on it so this means the designers already saved weight and it is still that heavy ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

4,98 kg in loaded condition...that is half a kilo heavier than even my K98k http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

6.47 kg ! with attached grenade launcher.

What is it made of ? Lead ? Gold ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Who is supposed to carry that weapon for hours and walk with additional 16 to 18 kilograms of full marching equipment a second Bataan death march WITH full NBC clothing under a burning sun ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Schwarzennegger ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Arnold_Schwarzenegger_2004-01-30.jpg

Celeon999
07-10-2007, 06:36 AM
Klcarrol,

As a HK fan (and fundamentalist), did you had a chance to check out the mg-4 yet ?

I just found this pic on HKpro.com


A 120.000 round torture test of the mg4 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.hkpro.com/mg43pile.jpg


It wasnt introduced yet when i was defending the Reich http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So my chances of getting close to one are down to zero.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9287/mg41zt4.jpg

klcarroll
07-10-2007, 07:28 AM
I have not had the opportunity to actually handle one, ....but I have read about it.

Once again, I am a bit bewildered: .....The H&K Delayed Blowback Roller Lock system was one of the most elegantly simple and reliable locking systems ever designed; .....and yet most of H&K's newer efforts seem to feature a rotary bolt system. I'd give a week's pay to spend an hour in quiet conversation, over several beers, with the H&K engineers. (So that I could understand the thinking.)

I have NEVER considered the 5.56x45 round to be appropriate for use in a SAW. The Squad Automatic Weapon should possess ballistic characteristics that the basic Automatic Rifle does not. It is the weapon the group depends on to produce results "when the feces are in the fan"! If it has no more range, and if it's terminal ballistics are the same as the individual's weapons; .....Then what's the point?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I devoutly hope they develop it in 7.62x51 as planned: ......THAT would be a "proper" SAW!


......Oh Yeah, ......120,000 rounds? ......I guess that's OK: .....But back when I had my Manufacturer's License, I put 250,000 rounds through an Ingram M10 in the course of evaluating suppressor designs. (....and I still have that M10, ...and it still shoots just fine!) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

*

Goose_Green
07-10-2007, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
What i wonder is why is the SA80 so heavy ?

I remember seeing polymer parts on it so this means the designers already saved weight and it is still that heavy ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

4,98 kg in loaded condition...that is half a kilo heavier than even my K98k http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

6.47 kg ! with attached grenade launcher.

What is it made of ? Lead ? Gold ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Who is supposed to carry that weapon for hours and walk with additional 16 to 18 kilograms of full marching equipment a second Bataan death march WITH full NBC clothing under a burning sun ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Schwarzennegger ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Arnold_Schwarzenegger_2004-01-30.jpg

I never thought of it as being heavy though. I guess I got used to it - it helped build those arm muscleshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Having said that, when you loaded up with live ammo you noticed the difference between blank and live rounds. The rifle wasn't my problem it was the 10 to 15kgs in my webbing that would be a pain in the back, especially loaded up with 240 rounds or more, grenades and smoke plus your essentials to survive on for 24 hours or so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

The recoil isn't that bad mainly due to the weight, but on long foot patrols you do start to feel the weight after a while, never had the chance to handle one with the grenade launcher.

The thing I hated most about the SA80 was the cleaning, especially with blank rounds - they would cause a real mess. I had the LSW version once and I went through countless magazines of blank and even with continuous cleaning as I went along it would became a real chore.

Sorry to bore you with my SA80 experiences http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

Celeon999
07-10-2007, 09:27 AM
.....Then what's the point?? Angry Blue Guy
Fire superiority http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fully sufficient for pinning the enemy down while trying to flank him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



The rifle wasn't my problem it was the 10 to 15kgs in my webbing that would be a pain in the back, especially loaded up with 240 rounds or more, grenades and smoke plus your essentials to survive on for 24 hours or so Eek

Tell me about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The good thing with conscript armies is :

When someone breaks down under that load and slowly conks out in the dirt ....its

First : Entertaining http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif *Comerades grabbing the popcorn* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

and

Second : No big loss as you can just throw him in the next trash can and get a replacement the next day. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



The thing I hated most about the SA80 was the cleaning, especially with blank rounds - they would cause a real mess. I had the LSW version once and I went through countless magazines of blank and even with continuous cleaning as I went along it would became a real chore.

Sorry to bore you with my SA80 experiences


Not bored here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Our blank ammo is even better, every few rounds you have a jam with that stuff.

Its not the fault of the weapon, its the old crappy blank ammo which lies around in the armories since years.

First deplete the old cold war reserves , then we buy something new http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

But dont think that they see a problem in that. They even state that this is good as the soldiers learn to fix jams that way. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Celeon999
07-16-2007, 07:01 AM
Funny story about the HK 416 :

It initial name was HK M4.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


The guys from Hartford , Conneticut couldnt laugh about that joke.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


So they put up a lawsuit against Heckler & Koch forcing them to rename the weapon.

So HK renamed the M4 to 416 and made http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif ..... get it ? M4 and M16 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


This is somehow connected to the rejected XM-8 prototype. Rumours say that it was Colt who rediculed the XM-8 and used their contacts to the u.s military to push HK out of the contest.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/XM8_-_Final_Version.JPG/800px-XM8_-_Final_Version.JPG

So i guess this is the revenge of "Heglar and Coke". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

They know that the M4 contract between Colt and the u.s armed forces runs out next year and want to become the new main contractor of the u.s army with that 416 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

comanderFritz
07-16-2007, 05:17 PM
i personaly dont care for the 5.56mm rd. the 7.62 seems to me to do the most damage and has been known for that. i did however solve this problem in my personal AR-15. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but the AK47 is cheapest assult weopon by far and will continue to be used by the most. ive never been in combat(yet) and therefor dont know about having the long berral big guns but i just bought a M1A/M14 and cant wait to try it.

here is my 7.62x39MM AR-15

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/5377/ar15001hi2.jpg
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/7439/ar15004br4.jpg

Celeon999
07-18-2007, 12:54 PM
HKpro.com (http://www.hkpro.com/) linked to an interesting article.

Through pressure from the u.s senate the u.s army will re-evaluate the M4 in a dust chamber test instead of automatically renewing the M4 contract with Colt as it was planned.

The u.s senate suggests to check if there are better weapons available on the market before the decision to renew the M4 contract is made.

This means that the M4 will have to compete against the 416 and other weapons in that test.

Article (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/07/army_rifle_070715/)

Celeon999
08-01-2007, 07:34 AM
LOL

Just for the files http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

How do you CORRECTLY pronounce Koch (http://www.hkpro.com/koch.htm)

blastomatic1759
08-03-2007, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by comanderFritz:
i personaly dont care for the 5.56mm rd. the 7.62 seems to me to do the most damage and has been known for that. i did however solve this problem in my personal AR-15. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but the AK47 is cheapest assult weopon by far and will continue to be used by the most. ive never been in combat(yet) and therefor dont know about having the long berral big guns but i just bought a M1A/M14 and cant wait to try it.


Oooh the M1A , now theres one you cant go wrong with. ive been meaning to buy the full length one ,but i ended up buying the Socom 16 which im pretty happy with , but i shoot my Vepr more than any of them.

andy3536
08-03-2007, 09:10 AM
Some other interesing guns new to the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdErfyYeJeU&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZm-8Q9xXoQ

Celeon999
08-03-2007, 09:37 AM
That Tavor looks interesting.

Who said that bull-pop is dead ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


Klcarrol will love this vid.

A visit to H&K. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Some nice slow-mo footages of weapons on the test range and footages from weapons in production at their main factories.

Love that G36 dust chamber test http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

And that MG-4 mud test ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Sadly no subtitles http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

A visit to Heckler & Koch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcsY0zaL3j4&mode=related&search=)