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MrBlueSky1960
12-08-2007, 09:02 AM
Who in history invented it first...

stathem
12-08-2007, 09:07 AM
Has MB_Avro haxxed your account?

MrBlueSky1960
12-08-2007, 09:15 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Not to my knowledge, why... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Has he asked the same question... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

stathem
12-08-2007, 11:44 AM
No...but..he's just prone to asking contentious questions and sitting back to watch the sparks fly.

MEGILE
12-08-2007, 11:53 AM
Mr. Whittle

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-08-2007, 12:17 PM
Ah ha! I know what you were looking at today Mr Blue...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/Secudus/Frank-Whittle.jpg

aceofspades_755
12-08-2007, 01:39 PM
An English man called Frank Wittle, but the Germans were the first to make an aircraft to fly under turbojet power alone.

HuninMunin
12-08-2007, 01:40 PM
Wagner.

aceofspades_755
12-08-2007, 02:11 PM
The german aircraft flew on 27 August 1939 and was called the He 178, whereas Whittles only flew on the 15 May 1941.
I found a picture of the He 178 at www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0144.shtml (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0144.shtml)


Sadly the aircraft was destroyed in an airaid on Berlin during the war.

harryklein66
12-08-2007, 02:43 PM
1863
Charles de Louvrie in France takes out a patent on the first proper jet-aeroplane design
- to be propelled by a jet of gas from the combustion of "a hydro-carbon or better,
vaporised petroleum"

Charos
12-08-2007, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by harryklein66:
1863
Charles de Louvrie in France takes out a patent on the first proper jet-aeroplane design
- to be propelled by a jet of gas from the combustion of "a hydro-carbon or better,
vaporised petroleum"

Are you shore this engine was anything more than an air breathing reaction engine?

I have always considered Franz Stolze to be the first with a TRUE Axial flow TURBOJET engine.

Stolze turbine (http://www-theman.mw.tu-dresden.de/theman/Willkommen/Stolze/Gasturbine.htm)

Stolze Axial flow turbojet Circa 1904
http://www-theman.mw.tu-dresden.de/theman/Willkommen/Stolze/franzturbine.jpg

Turbomachine History (http://www.turbomachine.com/history/)

"In 1873 Franz Stolze, a German, produced a preliminary design for a "Fire Turbine"Ł. There was no patent office in Germany so he couldn't patent his idea. A prototype was assembled in Berlin in 1904. It is not known if this prototype machine ran successfully. Stolze's design incorporated a 10-stage axial flow compressor with a 15-stage axial flow turbine. Air from the compressor was directed to a "U"Ł tube heat exchanger, where it was supposed to volatilize coal, and then to a single combustor to burn the volatizer fuel. The firing temperature of Stolze's turbine was approximately 750?F."


EDIT: Henri Coanda also flew a motor-jet or Thermojet in 1910, ahead of its time to be sure but still not a true turbojet engine.

Coanda 1910 (http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/AERO/coanda.htm)

harryklein66
12-09-2007, 08:57 AM
The engines were Pulsejet engine, I picked this example because the article stated :
"Frank Whittle invented the jet engine"

de LouvriÚ aircraft( note the Delta wing)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/harryklein/deLouvrie.jpg



As for Turbojet engine, Georges Marconnet , Henri Coand─â and
Maxime Guillaume, patents the axial-flow turbine engine in 1921.
It uses multiple stages in both the compressor and turbine,
combined with a single very large combustion chamber.
The patent prove the anteriority.

So Frank Whittle inventor of the jet engine, no.
Frank Whittle inventor of the turbojet engine, no.

Charos
12-09-2007, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by harryklein66:
The engines were Pulsejet engine, I picked this example because the article stated :
"Frank Whittle invented the jet engine"

de LouvriÚ aircraft( note the Delta wing)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/harryklein/deLouvrie.jpg


As for Turbojet engine, Georges Marconnet , Henri Coand─â and
Maxime Guillaume, patents the axial-flow turbine engine in 1921.
It uses multiple stages in both the compressor and turbine,
combined with a single very large combustion chamber.
The patent prove the anteriority.

So Frank Whittle inventor of the jet engine, no.
Frank Whittle inventor of the turbojet engine, no.

Very interesting info there Harry - I managed to find French Patent #534801 for an Axial flow gas turbine lodged in 1921 and subsequently issued in 1922 to Maxime Guillaume in 1922.

Although I agree his and others concepts were actually patented they were still working on prior art even in 1921.

Although a patent gives an air of mystique in does not necessarily give you a rubber stamp for thinking up a novel idea. The patent system is at best dodgy.

In any case I fully agree that the argument is watertight that neither Frank Whittle nor Hans Von Ohain invented the turbojet, they were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time.
IE: When metallurgy and industry as well as necessity all came together in their favour.

If anything at all the English should be giving credit to John Barber who in 1791 (some 150 years before Whittle) had Invented, Patented and Built a Gas turbine engine albeit with a reciprocating compressor decoupled from the turbine wheel it would appear.

I think many like to think of the lone inventor who amazingly comes up with radical new idea's no-one else ever dreamed of, in truth everything is built on those who dreamed and came before.

The mass media in their quest for idols puts some on a pedestal while burying others in
their daily puppet show.

Who knows in 50 years time Paris Hilton may have invented the Turbojet engine - http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

The-Pizza-Man
12-09-2007, 09:01 PM
well, she is full of hot air..

Gibbage1
12-09-2007, 11:50 PM
I can draw up and submit a patent for a warp 5 engine. Dosent mean I made a working one. There is no such thing as a fine line between drawing something, and making it work.

Charos
12-10-2007, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I can draw up and submit a patent for a warp 5 engine. Dosent mean I made a working one. There is no such thing as a fine line between drawing something, and making it work.

I agree - but in this case the gas turbine was indeed in a working state and a proven technology long before the 1920's.

Although its subsequent adaptation to that of aircraft powerplant was indeed a novel use for the prime-mover.

If the question was - who adapted the turbojet from a heavy stationary engine to that of aircraft propulsion? , then the answer is altogether different.

Quotes found here (http://www.turbomachine.com/history/)

"In 1882 the Norwegian Adgidius Elling started the construction of a gas turbine with possessed a 6 stage centrifugal compressor. This turbine in 1903 produced 11 horsepower. In 1904 Elling built another gas turbine wherein the air was heated by the turbine exhaust gases through a heat exchanger. This regenerative gas turbine produced an output of 44 horsepower. Little is know neither about these gas turbines nor about further developments by Elling."

"The first truly practical gas turbine, and one which received much attention in its day, appears to have been developed by the Armengaud Brother of Paris France. This gas turbine was based on a patent granted to Charles Lemale in 1901 in France. The gas turbine was ultimately produced in 1905 and 1906. It utilized a 25 stage centrifugal compressor, built by Brown Boveri and Company, and had a pressure ratio of 3 to 1."
[i]"


All these devices "gas turbines" and more were all operational prior to the 20th Century.

Proven to work in the real world patent or not.


EDIT: Interesting Wiki jet power timeline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_jet_power)

harryklein66
12-10-2007, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by Charos:
Very interesting info there Harry - I managed to find French Patent #534801 for an Axial flow gas turbine lodged in 1921 and subsequently issued in 1922 to Maxime Guillaume in 1922.

Although I agree his and others concepts were actually patented they were still working on prior art even in 1921.

Although a patent gives an air of mystique in does not necessarily give you a rubber stamp for thinking up a novel idea. The patent system is at best dodgy.

In any case I fully agree that the argument is watertight that neither Frank Whittle nor Hans Von Ohain invented the turbojet, they were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time.
IE: When metallurgy and industry as well as necessity all came together in their favour.

If anything at all the English should be giving credit to John Barber who in 1791 (some 150 years before Whittle) had Invented, Patented and Built a Gas turbine engine albeit with a reciprocating compressor decoupled from the turbine wheel it would appear.

I think many like to think of the lone inventor who amazingly comes up with radical new idea's no-one else ever dreamed of, in truth everything is built on those who dreamed and came before.

The mass media in their quest for idols puts some on a pedestal while burying others in
their daily puppet show.

Who knows in 50 years time Paris Hilton may have invented the Turbojet engine - http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

agree 100%
I pick the Guillaume etc... patent's as <span class="ev_code_RED">an example</span> of anteriority

HuninMunin
12-10-2007, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I can draw up and submit a patent for a warp 5 engine. Dosent mean I made a working one. There is no such thing as a fine line between drawing something, and making it work.

If you follow that flawed logic to the end the credit would go to NaziGermany for both rockets and jets.
Doesn't cut it.

Kauzio
12-10-2007, 07:40 AM
Whittle.

I personally believe that if Whittle had not done his work on the jet engine, it would not have first powered an aircraft (albeit a German one) as early as it did.

Say what you want about Hans van Ohain, Whittle's patent had been floating around for ages, I find it impossible to believe that van Ohain didn't take a look at it...

Bremspropeller
12-10-2007, 07:54 AM
So what?
Von Ohain designed an axial-flow engine what was way different from Whittle's design.


And guess what. Most of today's engines are all axial-flow. Ohain gets my two cents.

BillyTheKid_22
12-10-2007, 07:56 AM
http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/images/1/11/2008-Hayabusa-Turbojet.jpg



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/images/d/d9/2008_Hayabusa.jpg



http://djturbojet.podomatic.com/2007-10-16T00_48_25-07_00.jpg

BillyTheKid_22
12-10-2007, 08:22 AM
http://technologie-entwicklung.de/14-CaddyJet1.jpg

Kauzio
12-10-2007, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
So what?
Von Ohain designed an axial-flow engine what was way different from Whittle's design.


And guess what. Most of today's engines are all axial-flow. Ohain gets my two cents.
So what?

If you invented a car and I invented a truck, it'd be a bit silly for me to claim to have invented the automobile.

Bremspropeller
12-10-2007, 08:36 AM
So?

He may have "invented" a jet-engine - an outdated design btw..

But did Whittle fly one at first? No.
Von Ohain got his (better) design through in a shorter time.

stathem
12-10-2007, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
So?

He may have "invented" a jet-engine - an outdated design btw..

But did Whittle fly one at first? No.
Von Ohain got his (better) design through in a shorter time.

Your premise sort of ignores the fact that Metrovick in the UK had a working axial flow jet, the F.2, tested in Dec 1941 and installed in a Lancaster in summer 1943 and later that year in a Meteor. Needless to say this was independent of the German work and drew heavily on A.A. Griffith's paper of 1926.

DIRTY-MAC
12-10-2007, 09:20 AM
Wasn┬┤t it a Italian aeroplane that used a some kind of jet engine, long before WWII, like more close to WWI? Im trying to find it on the net but cant, they have talked about it on Discovery channel sometime, and I have seen pictures of it. the engine sat in the front, wich made it pretty useless to fly for longer times, because the exaust heat would start to burn the airframe...

harryklein66
12-10-2007, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by DIRTY-MAC:
Wasn┬┤t it a Italian aeroplane that used a some kind of jet engine, long before WWII, like more close to WWI? Im trying to find it on the net but cant, they have talked about it on Discovery channel sometime, and I have seen pictures of it. the engine sat in the front, wich made it pretty useless to fly for longer times, because the exaust heat would start to burn the airframe...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/harryklein/coanda-jet.jpg

If it's the one you think of, it was made by Henri Coand─â (Romanian )