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JustThisGuy
12-23-2007, 02:22 AM
When you see WWII films of carrier landings, in the final stage the planes seem to fall with the nose up all the way down to the deck. Is this possible to do in this sim? For me the only way I can land is to pull up at the last second, I cannot make the plane fall to the deck with the nose up all the way. I did a forum search and there was a lot of discussion about this from 2004, but most of it was before PF was released and people were talking about what they thought would happen. If someone has a track of this type of landing I would appreciate seeing how it is done.

gdfo
12-23-2007, 06:28 AM
Just an idea,have you tried taking a track or your landings and looked at them? It could be you are replicating what you describe that you see in the WW2 films.

Also I think that what you get in any of these 'flight-sim/games' is someones interpretation of what THEY think is a carrier landing.

AG51_Razor
12-23-2007, 08:26 AM
What you're seeing in those old films, is a plane making an approach in an attitude that is just below the stall. The power is keeping the plane in the air. When the pilot gets the cut from the LSO and he pulls off that power, the plane imediately stalls and falls to the deck.

That is almost impossible to do in this game. The game engine doesn't simulate slow flight very well. The best you can do is plan your approach so that when you cross over the ramp, you are at just about the stall speed and pull the throttle off. Hold the stick back as you touch down.

Try this as an excersise; first, fly at 50 Ft straight and level along a flat surface, such as the water, in a clean configuration. Start reducing the power and triming the nose up to maintain your altitude. Continue doing this until you can't maintain your altitude any more. Take a look at yourself from the outside, and notice the attitude of the plane and take note of the airspeed and power combination at this point. Next, repete this maneuver with the plane in a landing configuration - full flaps down and gear extended. Again, take note of the airspeed and power combination at which you can no longer maintain level flight. You will find it very difficult to fly around like this without entering a stall/spin. This is the speed (maybe slightly above it) that you want to be at when you arrive over the ramp of the carrier to take the cut. The next problem is to make sure that you're altitude is not so high that you will develope an unacceptable rate of sink by the time you hit the deck after the cut.

VW-IceFire
12-23-2007, 09:11 AM
Yes its possible to do in the game. It takes a bit of work to do it as they did but the trick is to get your speed down on approach. You want to know what the stall speed of your plane is and ride just above it. If you start to feel the plane slip use the rudder and resist using ailerons because it will cause you to stall more.

The other key thing is that you don't make this approach at 0% throttle. Something like 20% will do it. Just as you're about to hit the deck pull up and cut power (again just as they do) and the plane should immediately fall on the deck. The physics involved in game aren't 100% of real life so it won't look or feel exactly the same but it will be very close. The key is in the technique...I know myself and most other virtual pilots are a bit impatient on landings so we make them at too high a speed and there is no RSO to tell us otherwise.

buzzsaw1939
12-23-2007, 11:57 AM
Excellent advice here! couldn't have said it better myself. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JustThisGuy
12-24-2007, 01:14 AM
Thank you all for your advice. So it seems with this flight model you have to wait until the very last half second before you hit the deck to raise the nose, it apparently is not possible to lose altitude quickly with the nose up even when you are on the edge (or in the early stages) of a stall.

VW-IceFire
12-24-2007, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by JustThisGuy:
Thank you all for your advice. So it seems with this flight model you have to wait until the very last half second before you hit the deck to raise the nose, it apparently is not possible to lose altitude quickly with the nose up even when you are on the edge (or in the early stages) of a stall.
With this flight model and in real life as far as I can tell. If the videos you're looking at are the same ones I'm thinking of (there are only so many really) then the angles are deceptive unless you really look closely. The nose high attitude is really only for the last moments...on approach you're focusing on keeping the plane generally level but loosing altitude.

No two landings are ever alike either. Always slightly different although hopefully with a predictable ending http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RAF_OldBuzzard
12-24-2007, 09:58 AM
Actually, done properly carrier landings aren't all that hard. I know, that easy to say, but I've been doing them since the old RAF662 'Ark Royal Party' days in CFS1.

If it's done properly, you will almost never touch the elevator. It's all in trim, and power settings.

With the Corsair, I reduce power to around 40%, drop the gear, flaps, and hook, and then trim nose up so that I'm holding anywhere between 90 and 100 mph. You want to keep an eye on your VSI guage, and use THROTTLE to keep your rate of descent around 500 fpm. You will notice that at this trim/power setting combination you will have a nose up attitude.

Now it's just a matter of making a decent pattern, and getting lined up for final. Once on final you do it all by 'feel'. If you are going to 'overshoot', add THROTTLE to slow your rate of sink. If you are 'undershooting', do the opposite. Now just as you come over the end of the deck, chop throttle to 0, pull back on the stick, and your there.

Don't be afraid to do a lot of landings in WonderWoman view at the start. As a good reference, In WW view with the circle and cross sight, if you keep the bottom of cross on the 'wires' during final, you will snag a wire every time.

A lot of folks say that the Zair is hard to land, but I've never had a problem with it. If you think that the Zair is a bit much, then try either the SBD-5, or the Seafire. The Seafire's hook extends WAY down, and makes catching a wire danged easy. The SBD-5 is just slow and stable, and give3 you plenty of time to make adjustments.

No matter what you work with, once you get a few traps in, you'll start to 'relax' duting carrier landings, and then say to yourself, "Dang, that wasn't as hard as I thought it was". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TAW_Oilburner
12-26-2007, 05:55 AM
The only thing I can add which may help put things in perspective is something I heard a Corsair pilot say about carrier landings "If you hit the deck and the plane still has enough speed to fly, you screwed up".

JustThisGuy
12-26-2007, 10:25 AM
Thanks RAF_OldBuzzard. If I just use a little nose up trim and use the throttle instead of the elevators, the results are pretty good. It still does not look exactly like what I expected in relation to the WWII films, but it is a lot closer than what I was getting before. Now if I can just remember to drop my tailhook...

M2morris
12-26-2007, 12:06 PM
I had the same idea when I started doing carrier landings, I tried to do them like in the old movies. I would try to circle the corsair in at the last minute so I would be able to see the deck. Eventually I would come in strait and in as slow-flight as possible but in a slip so I could see the deck.
I do try to fly just above stall speed and cut power at the last moment.


In this short video I came back from a long mission and had engine failure at a lucky place and decided to try a deadstick landing and I was real lucky. I couldnt even see the deck for several seconds but, I had to manage my energy to do just that same thing that-is stall the plane at just the right time and catch a cable.
My practice paid off, heck I should have just ditched into the sea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6VkF_RSplI

AG51_Razor
12-27-2007, 09:35 AM
I use the close in pattern, as they did it in real life, with great success. The carrier deck is constantly in view, all the way down to just before taking the "cut". I don't understand how the rest of you can do it from a long straight in approach, with the carrier completely out of sight for so long!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

buzzsaw1939
12-27-2007, 01:31 PM
I agree Razor... I think it's because every where else in the sim, it's done that way! and they just don't know.

M2morris
12-27-2007, 06:10 PM
Well, when I DO have power I approach in a slip so thats how I can see while going strait in, you know; full right rudder and left aileron etc. I geuss its a bad habit I picked up but I come in in a powered-slip and I can see over the left or right side of the nose and then I straiten out and cut power at the last second. Maybe I should un-learn that and use the close in pattern like you guys do but, whatever works.

buzzsaw1939
12-27-2007, 07:20 PM
Like you said morris... What ever works!

I like The circle approach because it takes a lot more skill and I like the challenge, in real life you had better vis, as slipping with flaps was a no no, but I've noticed in game it's not that critical.

RAF__Swede51
12-27-2007, 09:06 PM
Yes, all of the above techniques are vital to a good carrier landing, but one thing that I didn't see mentioned..
This is something that is done just as you fly across the fantail.. and it helps to duplicate what was originally mentioned as seen in the films.

Hopefully when you are approaching the stern of the carrier for a landing you have full flaps deployed..
So, as you cross the fantail, or just an instant before, retract flaps to 0%. As you do this, IF you are going as slow as you should be, you will immediately stall and drop on the deck.

This isn't exactly what is done in real life, but in the game it will get you down quickly for a solid landing every time.

Waldo.Pepper
12-28-2007, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by RAF_OldBuzzard:I've been doing them since the old RAF662 'Ark Royal Party' days in CFS1.

Me too! Good times eh!?


Originally posted by JustThisGuy:
When you see WWII films of carrier landings, in the final stage the planes seem to fall with the nose up all the way down to the deck. Is this possible to do in this sim?

Are you sure about that? Maybe, but watch this modest movie I made first then come back.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3553305329187329583

I think that in almost all the historical footage in the flick, the Corsair hits mainwheels first. So I think that the game compares rather well to reality.

I prefer to land as I showed in my earlier movie - Carrier Operations with greater realism. With much less height! Landing with much less height makes it all but impossible for your hook to bounce over the arresting wires. That is so annoying!

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4165453209967617232

But in todays movie I came in much higher and with a curved approach. My landings were with ammo and 100% full tanks. (Which is highly unlikely, if not impossible.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/carrier/grab0000.jpg

Note how the hook is the lowest part of the Corsair!

So with full tanks you can achieve the above flight attitude by doing the following.

1. Beak fully high with maximum elevator trim. (Mine is on a rotary, which is all the way up in this picture.)
2. Gear, flaps, hook - all fully down.
3. Cowl flaps open all the way.
4. Canopy open.
5. Prop pitch 100%.
6. Mix 100%.
7. Rudder trim some right.
8. Some left aeleron trim.
9. Power setting at about 1/2. In the picture I think it is 51%.
That'l do.

If you do all that you can fly around all day at 140kph. (ish) As long as you keep her steady and do not turn. If you do need to turn, then you need to add some power - extremely gently - or you will flip over due to the torque.

I think it is almost easy after all these years. All it takes is loads of practice. Happy landing.

RAF_OldBuzzard
12-29-2007, 01:35 AM
Waldo, I'd say that you are just a 'wee bit' slow at 140 kph. Thats right at stall, and why turning is a problem. You be just a bit better off at 150, or even 160kph. That would give you a margin for error, and a lot better control authority.

Something that I didn't mention earlier, is that with moving carriers, I hold a bit more airspeed, sometimes as high as 120-130 MPH, depending on how fast the carrier is moving. Even ar those speeds, if you chop the throttle just as you come over the fantail, the plane will settle and you'll catch a wire with noproblem.

Another thing to do is go to FULL POWER just as you catch a wire. This helps the Corsair especially, as it has a tendency to bounce aand nose over. Addin power, with te stick full back will keep you from nosing over. Also, if you DON'T catch the wire, being at full power will help you get back in the air for another attempt.

Waldo.Pepper
12-29-2007, 01:47 AM
Waldo, I'd say that you are just a 'wee bit' slow at 140 kph. Thats right at stall, and why turning is a problem.

Yeah M8 I know. 140 is just showing off. I prefer 150 too.

Don_X
12-29-2007, 04:28 AM
Worth checking your altitude on the deck prior to takeoff (20m for Lexington etc.a bit less for other CV's)

buzzsaw1939
12-29-2007, 01:00 PM
Being an old CFI,.. I would recomend to anyone to practice slow fight in dirty mode, (gear and flaps) watch your vsi, (vertical speed indicator), take it to a safe altitude, dirty it up, and slow it down, use power to keep it level, keep your ball centerd and hold it there till it wants to stall, add power, when you have it under control, and level flight start useing your power to decend a couple hundred feet per minute, then add power to reture to level flight.

If you practice this, you will improve greatly!

S http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M2morris
12-29-2007, 01:37 PM
I'm gonna do just that buzzsaw, the dirty-mode slow flight practice at a safe alt sounds like a good idea.
Heres a youtube video of me doing a landing last nite. The upload ruined the quailty as usual but its here for you guys to critique if you want. It seems like my landings are getting worse latley.
I've already noticed that I had my cowl flaps closed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uJFtL63RLI

Oh ya nice screenshot Waldo, I kept it for a desk top background.

buzzsaw1939
12-29-2007, 01:58 PM
Morris.. Now that is the right way to approach,
Well done!
All you guys that are trying to figure out what were talking about, check out his vid. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

M2morris
12-29-2007, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Morris.. Now that is the right way to approach,
Well done!
All you guys that are trying to figure out what were talking about, check out his vid. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Wow thanks, I wish I could do that every time. I'm gonna go practice slow flight now.

Waldo.Pepper
12-29-2007, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by M2morris:
It seems like my landings are getting worse latley.

If you judge a landing by the results, which I think is proper, then I can't see much wrong at all with your landing. Looks good to me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

But God almighty is that Essex carrier ever huge! Practise on the Escort Carrier. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Everything else is always easy after that.

buzzsaw1939
12-29-2007, 07:44 PM
By all means!...just remember to check your May West before each flight! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

M2morris
12-29-2007, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
By all means!...just remember to check your May West before each flight! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Good Gawd you guys werent kiddin about that! I just tried landing on the Casablanca about 10 times and never had one success. I ate the tower once, and went over the end of the deck a bunch of times, Thats a pain in the a$$ alright, I dont even think I will ever be able to. I was able to takeoff though. whew. I'll keep trying I geuss.

corsair0772
12-31-2007, 08:45 AM
M2morris, I just watched your landing on youtube. That was a very good landing, looks like you got it down pretty good. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif I know the Corsair is pretty hard to land on a carrier and you nailed it. Congrats on that. Keep practing and it will become second nature. I use the circle approach and it works for me.

Zeus-cat
12-31-2007, 07:43 PM
I made a training campaign (Straight From the Farm) that includes carrier takeoffs and landings (both fleet and escort carriers). All the missions are available as single missions too for those people that don't want to play the campaign, but want to practice.

M2morris
12-31-2007, 09:35 PM
I will have to downlaod that campaigne Zeus-cat.
Anyway I finally figured out how to land on the USS Casablanca, I had to really get into slow flight and "stir the poorage" as a glider instructor once accused me of doing on my first aerotow. I noticed that in order to get the Corsair onto that small deck it takes slow-flight and bigger stick movemants because it gets so mushy but, I have to really watch out not to tip over. It sucks, I hate landing on that small carrier and it is true Waldo: now for me landing on the Essex is a piece of cake, pretty much.
Video in the making, yootube is all bogged down.

M2morris
01-01-2008, 12:13 AM
Heres my small-carrier landing video, and when I watched it it made me think of the possibility of this sim having air-wake turbulance behind the carriers. Also, when they made landings on big carriers I would think that the deck would be cramped and a pilot would probly still need to make the same kind of cramped landing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MplgpiFLem0

buzzsaw1939
01-01-2008, 12:33 AM
Morris....You look like a quick learner, turbulance and visability is why you want to come in high, once you get level flight down, and control your decent with throttle, you'll have it.

Yes, the mushy controls is part of slow flight, thats why it needs practice, and needs the ball centerd, practiceing stalls in slow flight helps too, after all, thats what a landing is, remember? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Looking good! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif