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Takua-Kaita-600
07-14-2005, 03:47 PM
FIRSTLY: This topic has been home to an argument between several members, including neo...1, LobsterGumbo and more. THIS ARGUMENT IS NOT WELCOME HERE. If you want to post, please stay on topic.

Now we all know Myst 5 has got some of us upset. I agree with all of your concerns. But let me offer for you some Ideas.

A) Whether or not it's 3D doesn't necesarily change the feel of the game. I dunno, but mysts 1-4 have had a "Myst" feel to them where Uru has not. I think this may be because of the structure of the game. I think they may be able to have 3d and give it a Myst feel to it.

A Part two) Yes, actually, one of the things that the Myst series has had so far that Uru has lacked is Architecture. Yes, indeed, folks. And don't you dare tell me D'ni was architecture. Yeah, sure...DEAD architecture. Myst Island, Amateria, J'nanin and Tomahna are good examples of what I'm talking about. Something clean and not ancient looking.

B) Still, I think the game should have a "node mode" which allows you to travel in nodes. And they do. Yay.

C) The hand from Revelation is a necessity. It was brilliant, and besides, They've had a tradition for IMPROVING each game, why DEPROVE now?

D) I don't want to look at 3d models that LOOK real. I want to be convinced that they ARE. I mean, if you are gonna use CG models then you've got some big shoes to fit after Revelation. They do seem pretty good, though, and I hear they used live-action for the faces. Mmm, yeah. It pained me watching Yeesha talk in Uru. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

E) And may I remind Cyan that Myst 5 is in the Myst saga and not the Uru saga, so I expect those linking panels to move, y'hear?

F) If this is indeed the end, then we should be able to revisit the ages after we've completed the game, like in the original Myst and in Uru. I'm gettin' sick of this "You play it through and then you're done" **** they've been giving us.

G) LAY OFF A-THE SYNTHS! Tim Larkin will apparently do the music for Myst 5, and in Uru he used WAY too many synths! Jack Wall's Clever usage of synths-only-when-the-particualr-sound-can't-be-made-otherwise was excellent, So PLEASE use that approach.



So, in conclusion, don't fret, my friends. I'm sure they know what they're doing and will be able to pull off Myst 5- But they'll need some essential things.

neo...1
07-14-2005, 05:17 PM
Hey Taku-Kaita-600,

All your points sound very familiar and I agree with them all! You probably already know if you've visited the "lengthy forum" I started some time ago.

A.) 3D has changed the feel of the game as you expressed thus far...so I guess you'll wait and see for yourself about MYST V. Also you can get a very good idea from the in-game footage right now if you so choose...Alhamnat pointed this out to me here:
http://www.mysterium.ch/index_e.html
I'm not liking it as you probably already know.
B)I think they offered the "node mode" for the disappointed....at the very least they're thinking....they BETTER have that mode... So that's why it is there.
C.)Loved the navigational "hand" you mention in REVELATION....& loved the "click & drag" control it offered.
D.)Absolutely agree....I want R-E-A-L. Spent several pages discussing this concern in the other forum. Yeesha's animation made/makes me wince as well...
E.) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
F.)Wishful thinking...and would be nice! What would be nicer is getting to experience those worlds in a different way...not through URU as you mention.

I won't fret! Just already have a pretty good idea of how it's going to turn out...not the happiest about it...pretty disappointed... but I am very grateful for the MYST 1-4 series & do plan to purchase and give MYST V a shot anyhow as I did URU & the "Complete Chronicles." The essential "things" I "need" to see are already missing...but others will certianly be happy!

LobsterGumbo
07-14-2005, 07:05 PM
Neo...1 just been looking over your posts in the other thread and I couldn't agree with you more. Your not alone. In fact if you look at the 3D characters thread you'll see my list of True myst games matches yours. Although I exluded Revelation because I hated the puzzles and stumbling around the haven jungle for hours.

LobsterGumbo
07-14-2005, 07:12 PM
Just wanted to add, I'd love a poll to be set up to see what everyone thinks. We three seem to be pretty lonely in this thread.

neo...1
07-14-2005, 10:44 PM
Hey Lobster!
Well I went over & put in my 2 cents worth (maybe a little more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) in the 3D Character forum if you haven't noticed! Just thought I'd follow up with you.

neo...1
07-15-2005, 01:43 PM
Hey Lobster...
I originally posted a response to you before the one above...but it appears I may have unintentionally deleted it. I'll just briefly state what I mentioned and that was 1st a thank you for letting me know that I'm not alone & it is always good to hear others who share similar points of view. 2nd... was that I really like your polling idea. I would love to see some results not only based on my own curiosity when it comes to MYST but also if you hadn't already read from the other forum...that I am in the very early stages of game development and those stats would certainly be beneficial from that vantage point as well. Now I know I haven't been in many other threads but based on several thousand hits & many responses just in the forum I started....the majority tended to embrace 3D or at the very least BOTH approaches. I am confident that there are plenty more people out there who share our view....there are probably other sources with stats in this regard...just haven't searched hard enough yet. That said... again I would absolutely like to see a poll done here as well!
I also mentioned how I do love REVELATION but I go into more detail not only in my started forum but in the 3D character forum you referenced me to....as well as the puzzle difficulty forum.
Lastly...I mentioned that this forum appears to have just started so maybe given a little more time it won't be as "lonely" in here!

We'll see!

mszv
07-15-2005, 08:42 PM
So, if you want to do a poll, as far as I can tell, you can do one on our board. From the top - new poll - fill it out, and there you are. I tried it, and it worked for me. Let me know if there is a problem.

This may not be the definitive statement you are looking for, but you will see how people vote in a poll.

There are other gamers forums, where you can post polls. It's a not uncommon feature of forums.

neo...1
07-15-2005, 08:47 PM
Cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Thanks for the insight mszv. Seeing how it was lobster's idea...I'll see if he wants to do it 1st before I go ahead with it.

Thanks again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LobsterGumbo
07-15-2005, 09:09 PM
Sorry Haven't been back in awhile, yeah I loved Revelation for its visuals which were amazing I just was dissapointed with the puzzles. However I started playing it agin today because Its such a beautiful game just to walk through and admire the graphics. I'll look into starting the poll after I finish this post

LobsterGumbo
07-15-2005, 09:16 PM
Put the poll up, don't know if its a great title for it, hopefully I can change it if you have some suggestions. Thanks mszv for the know how.

Regards

mszv
07-15-2005, 09:25 PM
LobsterGumbo - it's perfect! Glad I was of help.

Sometimes, in order to get people to do a poll - you have to "prime the pump a little bit". Reply in the thread, give an opinion or two - (Hey neo1, if you post there, don't be too long!). Sometimes you have to give people a little encouragement to get the ball rolling.

Good luck.

LobsterGumbo
07-15-2005, 09:33 PM
Just looking over the posts you made in the 3D characters neo. Great posts again by the way, you definitly dealt with bowendesign well, and I should probably say this to him but I'm signing off for the night and didn't want to make two posts but to me it seemed like what he said was a contradiction. "Imersion and believability is important not relism" well how can you make a game more imersive or belivable then having life actors playing out the story. I just don't understand his logic or the logic of most of the people in here for that matter. Anyway maybe the results of the poll will say differ and cheer me up, unlikely though. Just to add "the puzzles in exile to easy" I must not as be intelligent as I thought (ha ha)

Regards

LobsterGumbo
07-15-2005, 09:35 PM
Oh just saw your post mszv, It'll have to be tomorrow evening before I add in some posts, hopefully neo will get in there before that. Thanks again

Regards

Alahmnat
07-16-2005, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by LobsterGumbo:
Just looking over the posts you made in the 3D characters neo. Great posts again by the way, you definitly dealt with bowendesign well,
This isn't a competition, and I don't think many people will appreciate you trying to make it into one. Aggressive attitudes and hostility towards other members because they hold a different opinion is something that isn't tolerated on this or any other Myst forum. Discussion is fine, and debate is fine. Arguing (which differs from debate in that there is often little respect for the opposing side's opinion in an argument), however, is not fine, and I get the feeling this is starting to become an argument. I don't expect everyone to like where Cyan is going with End of Ages... that would be foolish of me. However, I do ask that you extend the courtesy of respect to your fellow posters and not try to "deal with" them because they disagree with your thoughts on the game.

bowendesign
07-16-2005, 09:58 AM
Thanks again, Alahmnat.

I'm rather confused about all this negative posting with regards to the upcoming game. If the purpose of spamming the forums against 3D is in some way trying to effect the final development of the title... I've no idea, but it's getting rather old as it's taking up a ton of threads. Plus there's not a jot of effort to understand the "for 3D" 'argument'.

As for the whole "believability" thing, well, I'm an animation professional and I'll tell you this - if you try to understand what I'm saying rather than skim the surface, or read Alahmnat's lengthy but excellent post on it in the other thread, maybe you'll learn something.

And yes, I'd rather people address things to me on threads I participate on rather than stumble on unncecessarily snipey commentary.

Peace-out.

LobsterGumbo
07-16-2005, 05:36 PM
I don't belive I was out of line in anything I have said. I did not bad mouth bowendesign, I did not insult him personally, I merly stated IN MY OPINION he contradicted himself, and that I do not understand his logic. No one is being agressive or hostile Alahmnat and this is still a debate and I will never do or say anything to steer it away from debate. I'll admit I have a strong interest in this particular topic it is for those reasons I would like to keep this issue alive, if the moderators closed this topic it would be a great dissapointment to me The only thing I will apologise is for not replying directly to bowendesign, I explained this in the post you've quoted, but my excuse is poor so bowendesign next time I have something to say I will reply to your post directly

Regards

neo...1
07-16-2005, 07:26 PM
Lobster I'll write you later...wrote quite a few threads thus far & need to get going for the time being! Back soon to respond to you as well!

neo...1
07-16-2005, 10:21 PM
I'm not sure what happened to my other response to bowen in here...but this will be the second time my post has been deleted... I'll need to really make sure I click the correct buttons...bad habit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Bowen,
With all due respect...I think it may be time for you to also learn a little something new perhaps? Maybe you can take a little time to understand the alternative perspectives out there. Free Country though! It would seem you are confused about a lot of things actually....

First as I still don't understand how you can't see "realism" and its importance in ALL the MYST series games... I am not seeing things as "negative" posting in regards to 3D plus there is an abundance of support for 3D:

"if you try to understand... rather than skim the surface" to use your words....

Take a gander at the "Anyone else bumbed out that MYST V is going to be URU style" forum I started. I think from the sounds of things here...you may be pleasantly surprised with some of the more "positive" responses in regards to 3D over there. It's on its way to 3,000 people viewing it. Many different perspectives over there....you'll need to "spend a little time" though & "not skim." There are even expansion ideas and participations with 3D...like "Stereo Imaging" for example as well as a number of other cool insights.

To accuse me or anyone else taking the point of view we do on 3-D & sharing our disappoinment/feelings in MYST V's rendering...AS SPAMMING the forums... is down-right WRONG, misplaced, rude and being infinitely more negative than we could ever be. You basically make anyone out who shares your opposing view to be "the bad guys" or as having ill-intentions or motivations.... so to speak. I was going to apologize for calling you ignorant before but your responses clearly continue to show tell-tale signs.

Being "an animation professional" shouldn't mean your ability to learn stops and now someone else should learn.

As Alahmnat mentioned this is not about competition. For me it is merely an expression of the experience of MYST games and a sharing of opinions/points of views that may be similar and may very well be different and so learn & grow from those views.

I try to respond always with respect but I also hit back hard at times when completely misunderstood or misinterpreted and certainly when false statements are projected. So I will apologize if I offended you but I've never accused anyone here of having ill-intentions like "SPAMMING" the forums. This is a discussion forum! Wake up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif SPAMMING is just a very poor judgement on your part.

In regards to your feelings about the topics getting old...as I mentioned elsewhere...they don't really strike me as getting old...I see a new poll up and running, I see new responses and new forums daily...while some of the content may be similar as well as not in favor directly of 3-D ...you really shouldn't have a problem with people participating in the forums the way they are. That's why they're here. Last I checked... there are 2 pages worth of topics...maybe just some of the newer ones haven't been to your liking....is that what your problem is? Granted I've made some lengthy threads...and I will do my best to start trimming...
If you're not happy with the current topics...they'll change soon enough. NO ONE IS SPAMMING...

Conclusion...maybe YOU should quit skimming and take some time to understand....not the other way around....especially before accusing people of "Spamming the forums." I've been putting in my time for GOOD reasons not your negative ones.

bowendesign
07-17-2005, 03:43 AM
I think I'll let Alahmnats warning and your own posts speak for themselves.

I understand free speech. I find it more than a little insulting that you're talking down to me about "learning" - I'm a storyboard artist, I deal in criticism where it's APPROPRIATE. I've done so for years - people criticising my work to help it get better, discussion, formulation of ideas, character and background creation, and to come here and be lectured like this was not my intention.

I was also an active mod for around a year at Just Adventure, a staff writer and a member of the adv. community for longer.

With all due respect, what are your own qualifications to criticise the use of 3D other than your own taste? I can back up my arguments with issues like "believeability" which are well-known concepts within the games industry that are actively discussed. And no, it doesn't require realism in the sense you think it does.

I'll make another post explaining how in the other thread.

edit - with regards to spamming, I'm sorry, it was a derogatory term. But there are four threads in the top of the board spanning multiple pages covering the exact same topics.

Be glad that the mods here are nice chaps. In any other forum, threads are often closed for repetition or people pointed out to discussions already occurring. It doesn't take much to look and find these threads either. As a mod I never closed threads, but diverted people to the threads where these talks were already occuring.

To reiterate - I can understand your disappointment as a fan of 2D FMV media, but there's a far bigger picture here which has been dealt with already by other posters in the other threads. Myst was never meant to be 2D, it's just the limitations of technology which created it. There's also the issue that the highlight of the series, Riven (for me at least), was so not because of the media it was produced in but the eloquent design style developed by Richard Vander Wende.

As far as I'm concerned, the style was lost when he was taken off the project and never followed through to the extent that Riven was realised. I love the art, don't get me wrong, of the latest Mysts, but Riven was a unified whole in so many ways. But not because it was in 2D - because of the amazing design work.

Having played 3D games, and more recently other 3D games with avatars and backdrops that excel beyond prerenders of ten years ago, I'm glad Cyan are attempting beyond Uru to create the 3D game they always wanted to. I think it's too early to call the results a misstep, as we've not seen anything of it yet beyond some blurry snippets and still screenshots. It's also worth bearing in mind that this time Cyan do NOT have the pressure of producing an MMO, and all the technicalities inherent in it, so the game will be infinitely more polished as a result. Or at least should be.

It's also worth bearing in mind that the new Myst looks like it'll be shipping with editor tools from the last interview. Try doing that in FMV... you can't! Now Myst can continue in the imaginations of the fans - only a customisable 3D engine can do that. It might not be a presentational argument, but its worth looking beyond that to what else it can offer.

So, you see, there's where our misunderstanding lies. I can see where you're coming from, but lets wait for the results before exclaiming it isn't "realistic" enough, or that the avatars fail to engage. You might be pleasently suprised.

mszv
07-17-2005, 10:07 AM
Hi all,
Spamming is, as always, a judgement call on our parts. I haven't called it spamming - yet, but it's coming close.

I know some of you have very passionate beliefs about what you don't like in the game, and that's fine. For all that, please don't start multiple threads saying the same thing, and don't repeat your posts in multiple threads (and don't quibble with me by saying "it's not exactly the same"). And, as always, don't bash each other. We don't like that.

I'm not going to lock any posts yet, but if this continues, I'll start locking threads.

Oh - for you people who have been reading and not posting - jump on in! Let the rest of us know what you are happy about, with regards to Myst V, and not happy about - that's fine too! Don't let a few people have all the fun. If you have questions - post that too, someone here might have an answer for you, or at least a theory!

Thanks from your friendly mod.

donna_marie
07-17-2005, 12:46 PM
Hi All, I am looking forward to what Myst 5 has in store for us. I love all the myst games and my favorite is URU without doubt. There should be more games like this out there. Entertaining , full of puzzles and beautifull places to explore and no violence. I congratulate the creators of such memorable and remarkable games. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

neo...1
07-17-2005, 03:59 PM
"Spamming is, as always, a judgement call on our parts. I haven't called it spamming - yet, but it's coming close."

As far as I'm concerned on my own behalf...to repeat in another way... I resent anyone saying I'm spamming...or even "coming close" to doing so for that matter. I've clearly stated my intentions from the start and will continue to do so. Again that may also tie back into "skimming" responses over. If you want to read into or project "spamming" on me...you can have your incorrect freedom to do so....but again where I am concerned it is ENTIRELY incorrect & I will not accept it...as it is my right to do so. Where others are concerned I'll leave it to them to express their own motivations if feeling "mis-judged."

mszv
07-17-2005, 05:47 PM
To pull rank on you Neo1 - it's a mod's judgement call, and yes, I'm one of our mods! If you have anything else to say on this, you can Private Message me. My warning stands. Don't post essentially the same message in more than one thread (and don't nitpick me on this, thanks) and don't start multiple threads on the same topic.

I don't want to talk about this anymore - it's more fun to talk about the games - for everyone - 2D, 3D, 2 1/2D, and well, everyone who is looking forward to Myst V!

I'll start. They can pull off Myst V if they make the puzzles easier! I thought the puzzles in Riven were too hard, and I thought some of the puzzles in Uru were too hard. Then again, I'm not all that good with the puzzles, so I want easier ones!

OK everyone, do you think I'm right or wrong? Don't be shy now.

neo...1
07-17-2005, 08:03 PM
MSZV:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Pull...Pull away! I just want you to know GENUINELY that it was never my intention to SPAM...it is NOT my intention to SPAM...and I will NEVER intend to SPAM or start up another forum on ANYTHING for that matter! This was my first and last experience starting a forum here. I am truly grateful for the learning experience(s) I have had thus far...it's time to just visit & try to enjoy this place from time to time! The warning as far as I'm concerned is for someone else...not me. I just may pm you anyhow...

I don't want to talk about this anymore either...I am absolutely sick to my stomach at this point coming from another forum...everything has been completely taken the wrong way. I will have a final response to bowen here and thereafter...if bowen responds here or somewhere else to me...it's only going to be one or two words... unless I see something "positive." You'll see...

SO to GLADLY move on to your question:

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment! When it comes to the MYST puzzles the harder they are the better! I do appreciate your experience with RIVEN's puzzles...I went through intense frustration...but in the end those challenges wound up teaching me a number of things about myself to this day I still apply!

As far as MYST V goes...I hope the puzzles are at least on URU's level of difficulty. I did enjoy URU's puzzles to be sure & look forward to what MYST V's puzzles can throw at me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

neo...1
07-17-2005, 10:25 PM
Bowen:

Last time...in order...as short and as sweet as possible:

In response to:

"I think I'll let Alahmnats warning and your own posts speak for themselves"

I certainly hope so and that you practice what you preach.

I'm happy to hear you understand free-speech. That's a relief actually. If you want to take anything I'm saying as a lecture...by all means...

In response to:

"I was also an active mod for around a year at Just Adventure, a staff writer and a member of the adv. community for longer" &

"With all due respect, what are your own qualifications to criticise the use of 3D other than your own taste? I can back up my arguments with issues like "believeability" which are well-known concepts within the games industry that are actively discussed. And no, it doesn't require realism in the sense you think it does."

CONGRATULATIONS. I'm happy that you have such wonderful qualifications that you think provide back up for your arguments. I wasn't aware that in a "General Discussion and Speculation Forum" that qualifications were necessary to contribute a criticism or non-criticism for that matter. Are we really understanding free speech? Also...I don;t think you backed-up your point AT ALL. What? You think just by stating what qualifications you have that should do the trick? NOT-

Let's just change the tone a bit here...when it comes to believability... I know where you are coming from but "realism" is also found to be important amongst many animators and you also stated from your very own words how realism itself is involved...which is therefore important. It comes from certain perspectives. It was from that perspective that I have been coming from regardless if you think so or not. I am FLABBERGASTED WITH YOU! You probably are with me 2...so WHATEVER...just getting this over with.

"General Discussion and Specualtion"...with starting my first forum and actively participating in other forums...I've attempted to take a different approach or "writing style"...one that you or many others may not particularly like. While my attempt has been to try and cultivate discussions from a number of perspectives which I believe to be successful (within of course the "structure" of "general discussion and speculation" )it is obvious that there is only so much one can write...meaning many of these "issues" brought up within a topic have been painted with "broad strokes."

I mentioned in the other thread (my other most recent response to you)...how I happen to know a number of animators and game developers....and this issue of "realism" and believability" continues to be discussed amongst us. We get along just fine....granted adjusting perspective is sometimes necessary. Ultimately...the argument here (with you) has become against the blanket statement that "realism" is unimportant and that is all. It is important to belivability on a number of levels. I'm not going to go back and forth anymore...

Moreover as far as my own qualifications "being in question" here....I shouldn't have to disclose it to you nor am I going to for reasons I originally did INTEND to ALWAYS leave out in these discussion forums and 2) Now a reason for you...to maybe see that as important as this may be to you....it really may not be that important here....in the general discussion and specualtion forum with the topics that are at hand.
Would you like me to tell you where I went to college....how old I am...possibly send you a resume...maybe set up an appointment with you?
JEEEEEEESH. Just "assume" or choose if you must what you prefer:

Either I am a completely uninformed, inexperienced novice who is lecturing you... Or maybe someone with ill-intent to SPAMM forums who has nothing better to do....Or maybe someone who may have some insight into "things" possibly with ample qualifications & imagination if you prefer. Or add your own definition if you must...

Or maybe even take a closer look at some other threads I wrote...to see that I may express exactly what my intent is and has always been...
Or don't choose at all...free country. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I've already gone into detail in other forums as far as my view on the intent of the MYST series vs. what it actually became...in REALITY. It was basically that MYST 1-4 are ALL rendered in 2-D (To me - for the discussions at hand and perspectives so offered in multiple places...this is what the FAR BIGGER PICTURE is).

I'm glad we share a love for the art in RIVEN as well as the design work. I'm seeing your perception here and by expressing your insight into the development. Believe me or not...broad strokes...broad strokes... when I mention complexity & dynamicsm in RIVEN that includes in my mind "design work." Again as I mentioned before...from my perspective... when it comes to MYST....I will now say specifically the words "design work" of RIVEN or any MYST game for that matter (including story, characters, puzzles)...ultimately become realized in its rendering/presentation (which has been predominantly 2-D) and that is where it is best....IN my own whatever you want to call it opinion. You should also know from my other responses "editor tools" or many other "bells and whistles" as I stated in a GENERAL sense...with broad strokes...really don't make a difference to me when we get down to actual rendering of a MYST series game. That was MYST. I know they are great options...and they will only become greater...(I actually look forward to it) but for the discussion at hand...and my perspective on it...there are some games which simply are better when rendered in 2-D...and that goes for 3-D as well...and all the reasons can vary.

Lastly, already mentioned TOO many times how I don't need the game to come out for me to KNOW that the rendering will significantly impact my personal overall experience of the game. I knew that when I first read how MYST V was going to be rendered...I didn't even need to see the trailer or in-game footage. Many other people know exactly where I'm coming from here. So I can't be pleasantly surprised. Call it close-minded...or ignorant or whatever you want. However...I do hope to encounter some challenging puzzles and an intriguing story-line maybe some pleasant experiences to boot...which will know doubt be present...and I will certainly enjoy that aspect (said this before also).

Good bye€"Sianara €" Over & Out and all that good stuff

LobsterGumbo
07-18-2005, 01:29 PM
Well it seems as the topic is closed. I personally didn't see anything wrong in this discussion, "Don't post essentially the same message in more than one thread (and don't nitpick me on this, thanks) and don't start multiple threads on the same topic" I will ignore your "don't nitpick me on this" because I don't believe I will be back here. Forums should be outlets for free discussion but it seems this one is not. If you look at the thread starters mszv you'll see that only the first thread concerning 3D vs. pre-rendered was started by neo..1, so you are completely incorrect in this statement. In fact it was I who invited him to the 3D characters thread. I also don't understand the essentially the same message in other threads remark as all posts were unique responses to other peoples posts. If you believe that he broke some rule in doing this then by not punish everyone who has posted in more then one of the 3D character threads, your friend Alahmnat for example. I feel there has been an attitude of ganging up and bullying in this forum and the moderators are a lot to blame. They have picked sides and used there power to threaten the other side and you can €œnitpick€ me on this all you like. This will be my last post here; I may stop by to look at the poll results if it is allowed to continue once in awhile although from the way this topic has been treated thus far it will likely be the next thing to go.

Regards

Takua-Kaita-600
07-18-2005, 01:38 PM
GUYS! YOUR POSTS HAVE LIKE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL INTENTION OF MY TOPIC!
If you want to argue, do it somewhere else! Jeez!

Look, neo...1's first post was fine. Perfect. But then LobsterGumbo came in and said something to neo...1 ABOUT A DIFFERENT TOPIC and then this huge argument arose.

Now, anyone have comments about the TOPIC?!

neo...1
07-18-2005, 02:06 PM
SO anyway....

I hope MYST V is really LONG...dynamic and complicated. Might as well be if it's the last of the series! I'll take what I can get whether I like it or not!

mszv
07-19-2005, 06:28 PM
I to think it would be smart if you could revisit all the ages after you are done - would make it a min-vacation for me!

neo...1
07-19-2005, 08:35 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I'd easily pay 50 smacks to take that vacation.

Alahmnat
07-20-2005, 01:38 AM
At least they've re-added the ability to save as you go using the in-game camera system... so unlike in Uru, you can revisit spectacular moments more than once without having to create a new character each time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Boyue65
07-20-2005, 11:39 AM
Folks, the reason that Myst is dying is that it didn't grow.

It took too long for the Myst series to move to full-3D, and by the time they had done so, public interest had waned considerably. Myst has to grow or die. It chose to not grow. It died.

Most of you want to play the old Myst style. I can understand the desire for nostalgic gameplay. However, the lack of change is what ultimately killed Myst as a series, and why we're talking about the last one.

neo...1
07-20-2005, 12:36 PM
Well Boyue65,

I would have to say that all good things must come to an end in many cases. I don't think that technology would be the sole reason though.

Like we mentioned Star Wars in another forum for example...Star Wars...certainly not only created but has maintained and used leading technology in its field. So...I know I'm comparing a movie to a game here but by using this illustration...I do think no matter what the series is and where it is...eventually as awesome as "it" is....it will eventually "die" to use your word (again if it's good!) -Seeing how I'm using movies/stories let me use a couple more if you don't mind...Harry Potter for example is awesome...but there should be an end...same goes for Lord of The Rings. The Lord of the Rings is PERFECT as it is. From actual story to the movies.

But to offer another point about "dying"...we could get philosophical/sentimental here and say that the MYST series although "ending" will never die in the hearts and minds of those it has made its home in! Would I like to see these types of stories continue on forever...yes! But that may also not be entirely realistic at least outside of the mind & heart! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I also feel as you may or may not have read in another thread that the "traditional" style has changed significantly from the 1st MYST to today. I hope to see that style continue to do so for the better as well as 3-D.

PEACE!

bowendesign
07-20-2005, 02:19 PM
I actually think there's the possibility of stronger stories in the Myst 'verse. Cyan are great world builders, but their storytelling and narrative has always been simplistic. Even in the books I feel more a "watcher" of events than feel that I'm reading an epic saga. This general floatiness wasn't quite as present in Riven, which I felt had more structure than the other games. Hopefully there'll be more of a feel of taking part in something big in Myst 5, rather than witnessing the past or a small familial story with little dramatic impact - lessened possibly more by the acting and script than the concept, and again less so in Riven.

neo...1
07-24-2005, 11:37 PM
A VERY "Rivenesque" ending to the MYST series would be HIGHLY appropriate and TREMENDOUSLY fulfilling.

compucat35
07-25-2005, 07:07 AM
If this is indeed the last Myst, I would like to hear some finality about my relationship with Atrus & Yeesha. I mean we've been friends for quite a few years. Either a "good-bye my friend" or more of a "I'm sure you'll be visiting Tomanaha (sp) again".

Also, any info on the finality of the DRC would also be nice. Lastly, how Uru fits into all this.

neo...1
07-25-2005, 11:43 AM
Sounds good to me!

Gybryn
07-25-2005, 08:40 PM
For me, they can pull off Myst V just by having detailed ages where I can lose myself for periods of time just enjoying the exploration and excitement of what could be. A plot that brings the series to a close would just be the icing on the cake for me. In short, I'll enjoy whatever I experience come September 22nd or whenever it's released. I appreciate the work that we all know was put into creating it and that alone makes me smile.

Takua-Kaita-600
07-30-2005, 04:23 PM
Two things I am worrying about!


1) From what I've seen, it looks like they're just using variations of the RealMyst cursor! That annoys me...I mean after that amazing Revelation Cursor, why DOWN-grade?!

2)I worry about the music. Now as far as I know, the guy who did Uru is doing Myst 5, am I correct? Well, that concerns me a little...as excellent as the Uru music was, it didn't have the dramatic, rich feel Mysts 3 and 4 had. (Mainly because he used mainly synths for Uru, but the other guy used a clever combination of synths AND live orchestra. (but mostly orchestra).

bowendesign
07-30-2005, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Takua-Kaita-600:
Two things I am worrying about!

Why worry? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


1) From what I've seen, it looks like they're just using variations of the RealMyst cursor! That annoys me...I mean after that amazing Revelation Cursor, why DOWN-grade?!

Because it wouldn't be suited to the game, or that really, it was just eye-candy. To be honest, is it really that important? Sure it looked nice. But now you've got an interactive puzzle tablet to play with rather than a hand to tap on things.

I did enjoy the Revelation cursor. But let's not fool ourselves, that game had its own problems. Hopefully the cursor just fades into the background, which is really what should be expected of one.


2)I worry about the music. Now as far as I know, the guy who did Uru is doing Myst 5, am I correct? Well, that concerns me a little...as excellent as the Uru music was, it didn't have the dramatic, rich feel Mysts 3 and 4 had. (Mainly because he used mainly synths for Uru, but the other guy used a clever combination of synths AND live orchestra. (but mostly orchestra).

I agree with you here. I think it was Jack Wall who did Myst 3 and 4, and Tim Larkin's back for this. Personally, I'd rather they had brought back Ryan Miller, who for me is the lead in terms of Myst music. His Ambo album is great!

However, Tim Larkin is probably more suited to Cyan's style of design. Jack Wall is very flamboyant and baroque. Give the guy a chance - he might suprise you!

neo...1
07-31-2005, 12:54 AM
To TAKU/Bowen:

I'd say that obviously a cursor is not going to be what makes or breaks MYST V...I don't think that's what you're saying either Taku. I would have definitely liked to use the REVELATION cursor....but you know something? Bowen is right...REVELATION is where it belongs....or in another 2-D MYST VI game (wishful thinking)...this is where that type of cursor would be "better suited." This could also be viewed perhaps as a very basic difference between an experience that 3-D offers and 2-D does? Or to say it better...some elements may "better experienced" in 2-D and some in 3-D.

As far as importance goes....well...I think it can be seen clearly here from two different points of view (as well as in the "knock knock knocking" forum) that the "cursor" to some people may not be particularly important or simply "eye candy" or maybe even "flawed"...while to others it is VERY important, not just "eye candy" and VERY well rendered. I think mszv said it well when he mentioned that the cursor in REVELATION added to the immersion of the game. But again to each their own...

Anyhow...with regards to music...I am highly respectful to all composers and their work. That said...I'm going to have to agree fully with TAKU here and just say as I mentioned back in the "Bumbed Out" forum ... URU has some great tracks that I appreciate but it is maybe two "handfulls" worth. Jack Walls' complete CD's for EXILE and REVELATION... as well as those excerpts that didn't even make the "mastered" CD'S....well...I just don't have enough hands. If you want to just compare EXILE individually...I still don't have enough hands....or just REVELATION.

On another "note" (no pun intended)...when I listen to Vivaldi, Bach or Handel to name a few....they're definitely baroque! I wouldn't say or completely chalk Jack Wall's music up as "baroque" and "flamboyant" though. In studying baroque music...you really need to understand its "evolution" through history to finally get it to the point of where and how it is used today...there are many forms of baroque music... but I guess in knowing baroque's fundamental definition which is that:

baroque music expresses order... the fundamental order of the universe... yet still always maintains a sense of liveliness and carrying a tune...

Based on this...I guess I can agree that his music can be viewed as "baroque" in several tracks. Moreover...his music is undoubtedly "in order" with the Ages he "places" it in.

Jack uses a few very "lively" string movements...and yes he also uses a few "flamboyant" pieces (basically the same pieces as his "baroque" ones). However...he also has A LOT more subtle or more modest, unpretentious and natural pieces. Such a wonderful composer of variety...variety being his utilization and fusion of orchestral & ethnic instrumentation, vocals, rhythmic & synthetic percussion, effects and ambient tweaks. Marvelous work...that can clearly be identified as being on another level...ENTIRELY.

Again...just to tie in the "cursor" perspective here (with MUSIC) and say that... as I believe MYST V will have "URUish" elements...it is fitting or perhaps "better suited" (certainly not surprising to me) that the music be composed by the very person who composed URU. This is not meant to be a negative statement....just a realistic one.

Alahmnat
07-31-2005, 02:25 AM
I, personally, prefer Tim's work to Jack's. Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy Jack's music, but I just think Tim's music is more in line with the passive ambience of Myst and Riven, which is really what Cyan excels at. Honestly, I think Exile's soundtrack is too flashy and theatrical, and stands far too much in the foreground of many pivotal moments, to the extent that you can practically tell what's going to happen before it does because of the sudden shift in the music. The soundtrack CD also has too much of the disjointed string tidbits that punctuate the end of the game, which makes it hard for me to listen to when I'm trying to relax (something Myst and Riven are much better for). I think he did a much better job with Revelation, toning it down to be much more ambient in the game itself (the amulet memories were still a tad bombastic, but I was a lot more forgiving of it this time because of the context of the music).

On top of that, Uru explored very different territory than any Myst game before it, making stops at the surface and spending a lot of time in the ruins of D'ni, rather than Atrus' imaginative and machine-ridden Ages. Because of that, the music is inherently very different from what we've experienced before, which I again appreciated. Admittedly there are a couple of tracks I don't like as much (and others, like the Cleft music, which have grown on me a lot over the past 2 years), but such is the case in pretty much every soundtrack.

Ultimately, though, Tim is a much more utilitarian composer than Jack, and I think throwing an entire orchestra at him would probably be the wrong thing to do... nor do I think it would be appropriate to Cyan's style. Most of my all-time favorite tracks are the simplest ones, composed by Robyn and Tim. Give me a Masai chant or a solo soprano any day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

And I still think the whole "OMG the CURSOR IS DIFFRENT!!!11oneone" thing is as pointless now as it was when we first found out that Revelation wouldn't be using "ye olde grabby hand" from Myst, Riven, and Exile, but that might just be me.

Coronagold
07-31-2005, 08:13 AM
As long as the cursor fades after a short time of being still, that's what counts. I personally think the cursor in Rev was a tad too big.

bowendesign
07-31-2005, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Coronagold:
As long as the cursor fades after a short time of being still, that's what counts. I personally think the cursor in Rev was a tad too big.

Part of that, I feel, was the forced top resolution of 1024X768. Making it smaller would've created something indistinct. It was a good idea, though, and I'm hoping the interaction in Myst V isn't limited to specific hotspots and the tablet, but with the occasional physics object and reaction of brushing up against something.

neo...1
07-31-2005, 03:25 PM
Hey Alahmnat...

I see we have many differences...from cursor use to rendering even right down to our musical tastes! But I think we also share some similar views as well. I can appreciate your perspective/experience on music... but I don't think EXILE's soundtrack is too flashy at all. The opening 2 tracks are essentially the same theme developed and expressed in a couple ways (track 27 can also be seen as this theme's recap)...I'm stating these three main tracks because they in particular could be perceived as "flashy" or "flamboyant" to use bowen's word. Obviously there are a couple tracks in the twenties that are alternative endings/Saveedro circumstances/player choices...not all of which are flashy either. So what does that leave? Track 30...just a fun attempt at a "cheesy" jingle which I actually do like...as it has a nice dark element to it. But basically we're left with... tracks 3-18 with the exception of 4 (used for drama purposely because of what's going on --Saveedro entering, breaking & leaving) and 12 could be seen as more "in your face" perhaps...although that track is tremednously well done. The point I'm trying to get to here is that this leaves a lot of tracks (most of the CD) that are extremely ambient and subtle. I know track 16 in particular is quite haunting and reminded me very much of RIVEN. I do wish there were more tracks like this...but I absolutely love them all.

As far as REVELATION goes... well... I don't think he toned it down...to keep it short...I think he simply maintained a wonderful mixture of a few "flashy/flamboyant" pieces with predominant wonderful, powerful and subtle pieces..a perfect continuation of EXILE's score.

I can describe every single track used from MYST to REVELATION... that is...Robyn to Jack to Tim to Jack....but I'll spare you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Certainly Jack's music is more theatrical and rightly so...I don't think his music would be well suited for URU and MYST V. Tim's will do just fine. Having Robyn Miller compose MYST V would certainly have been something interesting. Also...I love ALL of RIVEN's music even with its simplicity & limited sound source usage...every track is haunting to me even if it is redundant. My favorite tracks in RIVEN: (18) which is played when Gehn shoots you and the credits roll...and track 19 played upon completing RIVEN and credits roll....just wonderful wonderful and (now) nostalgic music.

I feel all the composer's did a great job for the time they created it and the games they applied it to. I'll repeat and pay Jack one more compliment here and say... as MYST is in a league of its own...or let's say beyond a typicial video game...Jack's music to me is clearly above or beyond a typical video game composer's level too...no doubt about it. He should be doing movies...and soon!

Eat_My_Shortz
08-03-2005, 06:40 AM
1) From what I've seen, it looks like they're just using variations of the RealMyst cursor! That annoys me...I mean after that amazing Revelation Cursor, why DOWN-grade?!
From the new slate video I saw (you can find on this forum) - although the hand looks like realMyst, if yuo watch the video, it seems to be fairly "alive" like the Revelation hand.


I agree with you here. I think it was Jack Wall who did Myst 3 and 4, and Tim Larkin's back for this. Personally, I'd rather they had brought back Ryan Miller, who for me is the lead in terms of Myst music. His Ambo album is great!
That's correct about Jack Wall and Tim Larkin. The Myst/Riven muso is not Ryan, but Robyn Miller. He's left now, I doubt he'll be composing for Myst again.

It's true what you say about the style of music. Keep in mind that Uru had a very different style to Riven/EoA. Just as Cyan are adjusting from Uru, so is Tim Larkin. If you played realMyst, you may have noticed that ALL of the music in the game (originally Robyns) has been extended to about double, by Tim Larkin. Also he added two new tracks. That music is more like the Myst/Riven style you enjoy. (And of course, so do I).


B) Still, I think the game should have a "node mode" which allows you to travel in nodes. I hear they do.

That's true. Its the default mode also.


E) And may I remind Cyan that Myst 5 is in the Myst saga and not the Uru saga, so I expect those linking panels to move, y'hear?
They bloody better! We've seen ONE linking book now, and havent seen it working. Fingers crossed there!


F part two) Okay, this is more like wishful thinking but....
Okay fine. If you won't let us revisit the ages then give us an option that lets us visit them IN URU. Y'know, after we're done. Hey, why not? you won't have to bother making any new puzzles or anything. They're both 3D engines. Well, if EOA is run on a vastly different engine then I would understand.
Unfortunately, yep its just wishful thinking. THere's no way this will happen. Although it began using the Uru engine, its been so vastly improved now (in fact i believe its not the same engine at all) that it simply would NOT be possible to get these ages to run in Uru without significant work... and by work, i mean baddifying.

DebbieDec2003
08-03-2005, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Eat_My_Shortz:

Unfortunately, yep its just wishful thinking. THere's no way this will happen. Although it began using the Uru engine, its been so vastly improved now (in fact i believe its not the same engine at all) that it simply would NOT be possible to get these ages to run in Uru without significant work... and by work, i mean baddifying.

LOL @ baddifying. A new word! But yeah, got your meaning. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see what the game is really like. That video with the hand was cool, was it not? Way to go, Cyan! Can't wait to get my hands on it. Thankful too, that I don't have a Mac and don't have to worry about the Install Shield mess.

bowendesign
08-03-2005, 09:49 AM
All they've got to do now is a making of feature called "Pimp My Myst". Baddify that baby, yeah!

Takua-Kaita-600
08-07-2005, 06:36 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Lol, Bowen!


Regarding the music, Actually I dont mind who composes it much,but...LAY OFF THE SYNTHS, GUYS! Though I LOVED http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif the music in Uru, there were simply too many synths! I noticed that in Mysts 3+4, Synths were only used to produce those sounds which cannot be produced otherwise...Go with that approach and I'm sure it'll be fine. (Though I do prefer Jack Wall's pieces.)

I agree about the bit with Robyn. Robyn was one of the founders, and it seems like he's been ignored of late! I feel bad for Robyn! I think it would be cool if Robyn would write more music for the Myst Games...His tracks were cool!


As for the hand...I'm not *****ing about it, I just dont understand why, with the amazing cursor in Revelation, we need do downgrade...It has been a Myst tradition to add a little more to each game...(Riven Improved graphics, Exile added 360, Revelation added the cursor and enhanced environment, And EOA will add complete photorealistic 3d...but the mouse should be give-or-leave, ya know?) Now I haven't seen the slate video but I'll trust that the cursor looks nice...maybe I'll take a look....UPDATE: No, It wasn't. It's more like Riven's where it changes to direct you to different directions, but still! AND it doesn't look like the 360 is as easy to access as it was in Exile and Revelation.

Alahmnat
08-07-2005, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Takua-Kaita-600:
Regarding the music, Actually I dont mind who composes it much,but...LAY OFF THE SYNTHS, GUYS! Though I LOVED http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif the music in Uru, there were simply too many synths! I noticed that in Mysts 3+4, Synths were only used to produce those sounds which cannot be produced otherwise...Go with that approach and I'm sure it'll be fine.
Yes, well, not everybody has the budget to go tripping around the worlds recording international orchestras for their soundtrack.


I agree about the bit with Robyn. Robyn was one of the founders, and it seems like he's been ignored of late! I feel bad for Robyn!
Robyn is no longer involved in the series or the company by his own volition. He has other things he would rather be doing (and is doing, AFAIK).


As for the hand...I'm not *****ing about it, I just dont understand why, with the amazing cursor in Revelation, we need do downgrade
Remember that Cyan did not develop Revelation, UbiSoft did. As such, they don't have access to the technology used to create the game, nor do I think it would do them much good anyway... the engine for Revelation has almost nothing in common with the engine for End of Ages. Additionally, End of Ages was in development before Revelation was released, so interface design was likely complete by the time Revelation's new cursor was made known. Plus, it's always possible that the folks at Cyan don't much care for the cursor change in Revelation, and have instead opted for an improved "ye olde gabby hand" over a complete cursor redesign.


It's more like Riven's where it changes to direct you to different directions, but still! AND it doesn't look like the 360 is as easy to access as it was in Exile and Revelation.
End of Ages is, I believe, point-and-click like Myst and Riven by default (this is based on what I've seen of the game through the videos that have been released), only with the addition of actual camera movement when turning or walking, versus cross-fading transitions. There's an option to remove the point and click interface in favor of a completely unrestrained navigation mode, but Cyan's objective was to make the game as simple as possible to navigate, and I think there are certain advantages that Myst and Riven's point-and-click interface have over the bubbles in Exile and Revelation, speaking from a puzzle design and "artistic direction" point of view.

poutrew
08-08-2005, 01:58 AM
Gosh, all this hi-falutin' talk about music and cursors makes me wish I had taken more arts appreciation type classes back in school. I must say, it really is interesting to see the various and varied opinions concerning our tastes. For me, I hope they can give us a selection of cursor types to choose from in Myst5. I personaly found the Revelation grabby hand a bit freaky. Seeing a 3D dismembered body part floating around the screen is just spookey.

As for the music, again tastes differ. I own the Soundtracks for all the Myst games except for Revelation. I just didn't like it very much. Why... I wish I could say. I know why I didn't like the Serenia music - it sounds too much like 'funeral' music, you know, like the music that plays during the public viewing the night before they put 'em in the ground. But then it does fit in the game, as Serenia is a culture that revolves around death. Like a friend of mine said after playing revelation, "In Serenia, the party really starts after you die.." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But, that doesn't explain why I feel the way I do about the music for the other ages. The only selection I liked was "Curtains", and it isn't on the soundtrack release... My most favorite music is from Uru. It's one of six CDs that are in my CD changer in my car and I listen to it while driving to work, and its the only CD I haven't swapped out with something else. I find the music is so well put together I never get tired of listening to it. Next is the Exile music, and then comes Riven and lastly Myst. Exile is complex sounding, like Uru, and both Riven and Myst are soothing in thier own ways. All in all, I am grateful for the Myst series for providing me with some very neat listening time. My only hope is that the music for Myst 5 sounds more like either Uru/Exile, or Riven/Myst.

Takua-Kaita-600
08-08-2005, 07:38 AM
Yes, well, not everybody has the budget to go tripping around the worlds recording international orchestras for their soundtrack.

Yes, Well, I think, while looking at the credits, that Jack wall's music from Myst 4 was performed by a local orchestra. Er...Not local meaning near them (it may very well have been, but that's not what I meant).


I personaly found the Revelation grabby hand a bit freaky. Seeing a 3D dismembered body part floating around the screen is just spookey.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


Well, all I can say is, we really won't know until the demo or the game (whichever comes first http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)