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View Full Version : Petition For The Return of the Fortress or a New Undersea Faction.



cibelius
08-08-2010, 08:36 PM
(Please comment and give thoughts)
Though Heroes V has caught up with the majority of the factions that were lost since Heroes 3(Stronghold in "Tribes of the East" and the Return of the Dwarves in "Hammers of Fate"), they are still yet to reintroduce my favorite faction from the game, Fortress. Fortress brought a unique aspect to the game that was neither seen before nor after Heroes 3 and it is something i would wish to see again.

It could be even be taken a step further with the introduction of a Sea faction. In no game that i have ever heard of have i seen a playable Sea faction. I believe it would open the doors to a very unique and enjoyable expansion. There is so much myth and legend behind the Sea that can be exploited. Like the Leviathan or Kraken and so much more. The sea itself, even without myths, is a beautiful and mysterious place. I hope you agree with my thoughts of incorporating something the no game has seen since Heroes 3.

Elodin
08-10-2010, 12:38 AM
I think the Fortress (swamp faction) makes more sense than a sea faction in the HOMM universe. That is not to say that it could not work with giant sea turtles (or dragon turtles), sea monsters, kraken, ect and a race of merpeople.

I rather enjoyed the Fortress in HOMM3 and would not mind seeing it return.

Warlord_Ade
08-13-2010, 08:34 AM
If they do a HOMM VI i think the factions we have now are all we need. IMHO

Starwulf99
08-17-2010, 10:10 PM
I would absolutely LOVE to have Fortress faction back. It was always my favorite in 3. Wyverns out in 3 turns, 2 if given a building as bonus for start. God how I miss that.

Would love to see an Oceanic Castle as well, that would be quite unique and might bring a new flair to the game.

What about bringing back the Elemental Castle from 3 as well? Making Phoenixes recruitable creatures again would be quite nice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dchalfont
08-20-2010, 12:44 AM
Here's what I want to see.

I want Pheonixes back as a top tier unit for the nature team...whatever they end up calling it. That is my number 1 wish for unit changes in HOMM VI. Too many damn dragons, black dragons/red dragons are all that is needed.

Werewolves. When HOMMIV was first announced and they mentioned the split upgrade paths, I was dying for a tier 4 ( vampire lord or possibly the next higher tier ) alternative unit of a werewolf.

You picture a fairly buff sort of werewolf, so high health, high armour, medium attack, medium speed, curse attack on melee hit, maybe the ability to consume copses to heal...

I also want a faction with behemoths again, I think the cyclops should go back to that faction and they could make a new tier 7 unit to lead the current stronghold faction....maybe a giant basilik snake like an uber version of HOMM3...or a stone golem...the shaman priests could play a part in their creation for 'lore' sake.

The fortress faction in HOMM5 was weak sauce, all dwarf characters and a cheap land dragon...I never bothered to play them. I would rather the old school swamp faction/or the old school behemoth faction back and reintegrate some of the other factions units than have the current fortress faction in the next game.

I really like the idea of the underseas faction as well. More unit diversity/ more diverse colour palette.

So many mythical mosters to draw from. Mermiads, water elementals, giant squid/leviathan for tier 7...

Articun
08-20-2010, 06:48 AM
Well, Sylvan or Nature towns are about balance. The druids' tradition is about preserving balance. And yes, true enough dragons do not fit in such a town. Dragons are forces of destruction and rarely balance. So it would be nice to have the phoenix as a last tier creature of nature towns since it represents nature itself. The cycle of life and death and rebirth.
I'd like to see the towns have their own terrain signatures like in previous games. Forest for sylvan, desert for academy, medaws for heaven, etc. And true, new towns will be a nice adiction, be it the Fortress that has been dropped or an undersea city (though as far as mechanics go, it will be a bit hard to use marine creatures in land).
As far as werewolves go. They have very high attack power, defense and speed. So yeah, they could be a tier 6 or 7 creature. Though they are not so much a last tier creature on the visual scale. And they are not really considered undead. Tis strange how ppl think of them as undead. Werewolves are shapeshifters. So they could fit in the dungeon town, since they have the dark elves/warlocks/sorceress that use such arts.
Multiple evolutions for creatures are also welcome since it helps increase the replayability of the game, the customization and the expirience. But that does not mean that a heroes IV system should be implemented. It would be nice if you could for example choose from a wide variety of creatures for each tier (say 3-5) and then from 1 or 2 evolutions for that specific one. (i.e. Squire - Pickeman or Guard, Peasant - Marauder or Thief, etc / Pixie - Nymph or Sylph or Dryad, Centaur - Centurion or Berserker or Centaur Archer, Dwarf - Battle Dwarf or Axewielder. You will have to choose one of these creatures as tier one and choose one of the evolutions)

Hodge_Podge
08-24-2010, 12:32 PM
Fortress and Phoenix … YES! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Doomcore
09-16-2010, 01:05 AM
Fortress Faction (Revamped from Heroes 3)

Fortress Faction (Revamped from Heroes 3)

YES YES http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Secret_Holder
09-16-2010, 09:25 AM
I would rather see the Conflux than the Fortress. But it shouldn't be as inbalanced as in HoMM III.

GoranXII
09-17-2010, 01:04 AM
Went with Fortress since we already have a sort-of template.

I really can't see how a sea-faction would work, I mean you'd have to completely rework the siege system, and figuring out how to add sea-mines would be a real pain.

Oh and I have to say NO to the Conflux, it was a lazy, crappy excuse of a town that deserves to be buried in history.

mcgslo
09-17-2010, 04:28 AM
Why couldnt some underwater/water faction exist? If you by underwatter creatures mean only fishes then it is strange ... but it is fantasy world and you could have all sorts of creatures... check some mythological creatures and gods: http://www.lenntech.com/water-mythology.htm

You dont need mines for every castle... there are tons of stuff that can be use instead of mines.

GoranXII
09-17-2010, 12:07 PM
Okay, name something that can replace mines since a town that could supply everything itself would be just overpowered. You also have to sort out how to work sieges and you'd have to make the shipyard a pre-built building and either give them a ship already in, or give them the resources for one.

fenixforeva
09-17-2010, 09:25 PM
You know what, it doesn't matter if they don't bring any new factions in or creature upgrades now, Just like the heroes V series they WILL make a expansion and introduce more stuff into the game just like they did with hammers of fate and tribes of the east.

I just hope by then the game is bug free.

smithey33
09-18-2010, 10:30 PM
Creatures i would really and I Mean REALLY like to see are

1. Chimera http://www.joshuabuchanan.com/...ndis/chimera_web.jpg (http://www.joshuabuchanan.com/dragonpit/LOTE/Kerendis/chimera_web.jpg)

2. Medusa http://www.medbherenn.com/images/medusa-1.jpg

Faction would be without a doubt a dark elves faction, sworn enemies to sylvanas... a bunch of sexy dark elves... whats there not to like ??? examples

1. dark witch http://www.freakygaming.com/ga.../erotic_dark_elf.jpg (http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/game_art/lineage_2/erotic_dark_elf.jpg)

2. Archer http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs4...by_TheFirstAngel.jpg (http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs44/f/2009/134/8/f/Sylvanas___Fallen_by_TheFirstAngel.jpg)

3. Dark assassin http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs4...Dark_Elf_by_nJoo.jpg (http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs44/f/2009/065/7/7/Dark_Elf_by_nJoo.jpg)

4. sabertooth rider http://img297.imageshack.us/i/hunterfh4.jpg/

5. Frost dragon http://www.google.co.il/imgres...ed=1t:429,r:26,s:182 (http://www.google.co.il/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cgchannel.com/interviews/blizzard/images/dragon-concept_hirez.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.aeriagames.com/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D5448401&usg=__Z7EOiqOuWdfFAKyaxyNPsmpeRZk=&h=2226&w=2077&sz=2343&hl=en&start=182&zoom=1&tbnid=CGCXtLswrfWIEM:&tbnh=159&tbnw=156&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddark%2Belf%2Bmounting%2Ba%2Bdragon%26 um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4SKPB_enIL344IL344%26bi w%3D1659%26bih%3D817%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=687&vpy=315&dur=2890&hovh=232&hovw=217&tx=172&ty=59&ei=EJGVTKTvK9Pd4Aa99PjxBA&oei=65CVTPrPJ4nFswafroxb&esq=8&page=7&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:26,s:182)

drop them a chimera or some sort of dragon/spider riding elf and there u have my fav faction

Xenofex_086
09-19-2010, 12:49 AM
And I would love to see all the dark/wood/whatever elves violently massacred for being too generic and pokemon-like, but that may be just me (though I doubt it). Hence a faction that specializes in elf holocaust will automatically become my favourite. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
As for the undersea faction - you can't really have one with the vast majority of the battles taking place on solid ground. The idea itself isn't that bad, but I can't see how it will be implemented without resorting to absurdities.

GoranXII
09-19-2010, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
And I would love to see all the dark/wood/whatever elves violently massacred for being too generic and pokemon-like, but that may be just me (though I doubt it). Hence a faction that specializes in elf holocaust will automatically become my favourite. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Yeah, and the same fate has to befall the Haven, and Necro. and Wizards, and, oh hells, scrap the lot of them, they're all too bloody generic.

smithey33
09-19-2010, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
And I would love to see all the dark/wood/whatever elves violently massacred for being too generic and pokemon-like, but that may be just me (though I doubt it). Hence a faction that specializes in elf holocaust will automatically become my favourite. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
As for the undersea faction - you can't really have one with the vast majority of the battles taking place on solid ground. The idea itself isn't that bad, but I can't see how it will be implemented without resorting to absurdities.

right right coz we cant have smth like

naga http://d4fantasy.com/wp-conten...ads/2010/04/naga.jpg (http://d4fantasy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/naga.jpg)
sea dragon http://library.thinkquest.org/...ragons/seadragon.jpg (http://library.thinkquest.org/C003239/data/art/caramitten/dragons/seadragon.jpg)
poseidon http://media.photobucket.com/i.../poseidonpoweron.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/image/poseidon%20god%20of%20the%20sea/Brier17/god%20of%20war/poseidonpoweron.jpg)
hydra http://www.elftown.com/stuff/hydra.gif
medusa http://reelartent.com/wp-conte...ans-medusa-face3.jpg (http://reelartent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/clash-of-the-titans-medusa-face3.jpg)
or any other of the creatures who can do both the sea and land.... ohh ohh wait, your thing isnt using the brain to make suggestions but only saying whats wrong with other ppls ideas... my bad... my bad....

Xenofex_086
09-19-2010, 06:39 AM
From the beasties that you suggested, only the "Sea Dragons" and Medusas are creatures that have something to do with the sea, as the mythological Gorgon Medusa is an offspring of a sea god (or entity). The Hydra is a forest/swamp creature, Poseidon is a god (it's like suggesting Academy to have Zeuses instead of Titans) and the Nagas are terrestrial inhabitants. Not that this is important, I'm well aware that the necessary creatures can be invented if needed.
Now when you are talking about the other peoples' brains, please take into account that you have to explain the things first to yourself. In this particular case you can start with:
- How will these underwater creatures survive outside their natural habitat long enough to lead campaigns into, let's say, deserts, volcanic areas, frosty mountains, etc?
- How will their economy function - will they use the same resources and if no - what will replace them? How will the other factions capture their resource bases?
- How are the other factions going to lay siege on the underwater town? Though the idea of Archangels in bathyspheres, Pit Lords in U-boats and dwarves in deep diving suits sounds appealing, somehow I don't think it's gonna work.
- What will be these underwater creature stimulus to come from the water and conquer something on the mentioned "solid ground"? The reversed version of this question is - What the hell are you going to do on the bottom of the ocean?!
Start with these 4 questions and if you answer adequately, you will be rewarded with more.

Mr.Dragon
09-19-2010, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
And I would love to see all the dark/wood/whatever elves violently massacred for being too generic and pokemon-like, but that may be just me (though I doubt it). Hence a faction that specializes in elf holocaust will automatically become my favourite. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
As for the undersea faction - you can't really have one with the vast majority of the battles taking place on solid ground. The idea itself isn't that bad, but I can't see how it will be implemented without resorting to absurdities.

Great to see another sensible person who has recognized the pointy eared threat for what it is.
Elves are a bunch of arrogant ****s that need to stop spoiling all my fun, I'm fine with a handful of scantily clad ones but not two entire towns filled to the bursting point with them.

Back on topic:
Yes an undersea faction is doable, but it's a little odd, what are they doing on land?
And why the hell would they need boats and not gather treasure and resources underwater?!
There would be a long list of technical and gameplay/balance issues tacked on to an aquatic faction, unless they behave like any other in which case they just seem silly, arbitrarily following along with the rules of the game despite the fact that common sense (as far as it stretches in a fantasy) dictates they shouldn't be.

HOWEVER, a swamp or semi-aquatic town *cough* Fortress *cough* could easily include aquatic or amphibious monsters and still be perfectly natural feeling on land.

smithey33
09-19-2010, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
From the beasties that you suggested, only the "Sea Dragons" and Medusas are creatures that have something to do with the sea, as the mythological Gorgon Medusa is an offspring of a sea god (or entity). The Hydra is a forest/swamp creature, Poseidon is a god (it's like suggesting Academy to have Zeuses instead of Titans) and the Nagas are terrestrial inhabitants. Not that this is important, I'm well aware that the necessary creatures can be invented if needed.
Now when you are talking about the other peoples' brains, please take into account that you have to explain the things first to yourself. In this particular case you can start with:
- How will these underwater creatures survive outside their natural habitat long enough to lead campaigns into, let's say, deserts, volcanic areas, frosty mountains, etc?
- How will their economy function - will they use the same resources and if no - what will replace them? How will the other factions capture their resource bases?
- How are the other factions going to lay siege on the underwater town? Though the idea of Archangels in bathyspheres, Pit Lords in U-boats and dwarves in deep diving suits sounds appealing, somehow I don't think it's gonna work.
- What will be these underwater creature stimulus to come from the water and conquer something on the mentioned "solid ground"? The reversed version of this question is - What the hell are you going to do on the bottom of the ocean?!
Start with these 4 questions and if you answer adequately, you will be rewarded with more.

what now ? hydra is a forrest creature ? hydra was a guardian to the entrence of the underworld beneath the water, a lake not a sea but regardless not a forest thats for sure...
Nagas are terrestrial inhabitants ??? Oh really ? coz in Indian mythology, Nagas are primarily serpent-beings living under the sea... do some research, and poseidon, come on now so change him with some dude from atlantis or whatever, all just details !!! ur arguing with smth i came up with in 30 sec's and once again let me bring up the main point of my previous post, instead of spendin time to say whats wrong with other ppls ideas how about u bring an idea of your own ?????

regarding the - How will these underwater creatures survive outside their natural habitat long enough to lead campaigns into, let's say, deserts, volcanic areas, frosty mountains, etc?

How did the swamp thingies survive long enough in the desert ? how come dragons and griffins use boats to travel the sea, how come its a game about mythical creatures when those dont exist ?
- How will their economy function - will they use the same resources and if no - what will replace them? How will the other factions capture their resource bases?

right coz other factions used different resources coz its obvious to all that dead, elves and hells legions use the same resources ? u do realize its a game, as in fiction ???

- How are the other factions going to lay siege on the underwater town? Though the idea of Archangels in bathyspheres, Pit Lords in U-boats and dwarves in deep diving suits sounds appealing, somehow I don't think it's gonna work.

indeed a good question coz after all whoever laid a siege on the inferno had to wear suits to sustain high temperatures, whoever laid siege on dwarves had to learn how to ski before attackin them and whoever laid a siege on the necromancers had to die in order to go into the underworld, indeed a good question... LOL

- What will be these underwater creature stimulus to come from the water and conquer something on the mentioned "solid ground"? The reversed version of this question is - What the hell are you going to do on the bottom of the ocean?!

they've never seen a flying car, enough of a reason for me.. it doesnt have to be beneath the water, can be half in half out, can rise up everytime they leave or get attacked... world of possibilities to think from, if they wanna do the faction its easily done but once again, instead of saying whats wrong with whatever it is, how about an idea for a faction or how to improve other ppls factions instead of... well instead of not saying anything constructive...

P.S. sea faction wasnt even my idea, i just said its easily done and brought up stuff in a matter of seconds, u on the other hand... where are your ideas... for anything besides whats wrong with other ppls ideas ??? come on, think of something worthy and get back to me and if u cant then dont say whats wrong with other ppl's stuff... its hypocritical !!!!

Xenofex_086
09-19-2010, 03:17 PM
Slow down, you are almost smoking. The greater part of your arguments are "What I'm saying doesn't make sense, but since there are other not-so-rational things in the game, mine is not worse than them". Read what I initially said up there:

The idea itself isn't that bad, but I can't see how it will be implemented without resorting to absurdities.
I do hope that you understand what does this mean and I don't have to explain it. But OK, one by one:
- The original Greek Lyrnean Hydra is a swamp creature that Hercules has to dispatch in order to complete one of the tasks assigned to him by Eurystheus. Read the myth if you are not familiar with it. There is great difference between swamp and sea in my book and if you find them to be similar enough, keep this opinion to yourself. And yeah, the swamp could also be inside a forest; about the nagas - please give me your sources which depict the Nagas as exclusively sea serpents. My previous "researches" show the Nagas as predominantly terrestrial creatures, with exception(s). I'm not an expert on the hindu mythology though, so you can enlighten me; Atlantis is a legendary island...
- Again, I'm not arguing that creatures for a sea faction CAN be created. You can create whatever you want, but the point is the final product to make sense in the world it's meant to exist in;
- You are not giving any arguments how will these sea inhabitants survive hostile climate, you are just pointing that there are some existing more or less absurdous things (and none of them is as absurdous as sea creature in the desert for instance). Even in a fictional world there is always certain degree of common sense, which can not be scrapped. In the HoMM world you have gravity, atmosphere, biosphere, different climate zones and generally quite of lot of the things you have in the real world too;
- The above applies for the resouces and sieges too - you aren't really answering. But if you need an example - a siege against (for example again) an Inferno town is against something that's on dry land (read - something accessible for most armies), has walls that can be penetrated by conventional siege equipment and garrison that mostly walks on its feet and thus can be engaged by similar force;
- As for the motive, again I see no real answer. How do you imagine some people that live in the sea to emerge only to fight with some wizards that dwell in the desert (just one more example)? In HoMM every faction should have a motive to attack or ally with every other faction, otherwise it's just not necessary for a game that concentrate exclusively on the war between the races. You can have seperate creatures, but not entire faction.
Finally, I'm not making suggestions because the inital idea does not seem hold much potential in itself, in my opinion - there are too much "ifs" and "sure, buts". And I'm concentrating on you because you actually started arguing and nobody else seems to want to participate at the moment.

smithey33
09-19-2010, 05:23 PM
Lyrnean Hydra as in hydra (water based beast) of the "lake lerna" as i said. lake not forest, lake isnt sea but its water based, havent claimed they need to be 20000 leagues under the sea but only water based...

Ananta aka sesha aka the infinite one is the creator of all and the first naga
"The World Serpent of Hindu mythology. During the quiescent period of the cosmos, the night of Brahma, Vishnu sleeps on coils of a prodigious snake, Sesha, known as Ananta, ‘the endless’, whose thousand heads rise as a canopy over the recumbent deity. The anthropomorphic god, the serpentine rings that form his couch, and the waters on which the infinite snake floats are, of course, all manifestations of the primeval essence.

As Balarama, the half-brother of Krishna, Ananta takes on human form, though towards the end of the legend, when he is sitting beneath a tree on the shore of the ocean, lost in thought, a serpent crawls out of his mouth, leaving the hero disincarnate. Back in the watery deep, Ananta spews forth venomous fire that destroys creation at the end of each kalpa. The gods and the demons, once temporarily at peace, used the World Serpent as a rope, which they twisted round Mount Mandara, and so churned the ocean for the elixir of immortality, amrita"
never claimed nagas are exclusively sea serpents, can be associated with either, seas, rivers, land and if they can be associated with water thats kinda enough to me...

- none of the creatures i've mentioned doesnt need to be limited to sea/water only, same way other factions arent limited to their climate, it can be a faction which resides at sea by choice, coz of food, coz of whatever but that doesnt need sea water to survive anymore than others... water based doesnt mean needs water to survive

- siege on a water based town will simply have a different environment, the army will have differently designed siege weapons, the town will be made of water (crystal type a look) and beasts will walk on feet just like water based creatures walk on feet..u can add/reduce strength by environment (deduction to damage when legions of hell fight in water environment or when water based creatures attack in desert) fights take place on solid ground, soldiers on feet, solid ground that looks like solid liquid as the town isnt underneath the water surface but half in half out

- motive lets see... Global Warming LOL, kiddin
endless wars over the land and the sea, new opened dimension doors from wherever the legion comes have caused a shift in earths (choose whatever) ocean cracks and wakens an ancient specie of water based creatures who can live in water or outside of it and who have been asleep for many centuries... hungry for revange, for glory, since they were the first ones, they should rule the world both the seas and the land... and thats just improvising, im pretty sure that there are ppl out there who actually come up with bull**** like this in a professional manner and who can probably think of smth better than what i did in 1 minute... motive good enough ?
want smth else answered while we're discussin an idea which wasnt even mine at all ??

and btw since u have so many opinions and all that... what faction would u create ?

mcgslo
09-20-2010, 06:22 AM
As for underwater i also didnt thought that race would be actually underwater. I imagine like smithey33 said watter based castle... like Atlantis city wich have arisen from the depths.

I think we could find 7 creatures without more absurdities that they already are in the game. Beside all creatures should breath both air and have lungs of some sort or some breath with magic if you will...

Castle i imagined would be like i said Atlantis-like lost city covered with alge and seeweed. And not really underwater but have creatures and powers associated with water obviously.

Further more advanture map terrain could be groun under the sea but without watter. Or we could have global spell that removes watter(but i dont see right now how to implement).
Or Their terrain could function same as underground cavern but their whole terrain is actually their city or these vast lost underwatter land inside huge bubble...and castle in center or whereever. And to enter in these lands is via teleports, dimension doors, or watter vortex.

I think this way all other questions about their motive, resources and sieging are answered.

GoranXII: It really depends on type of castle. Quick sand, ice, salt water, mud, alergenic seeweed, chocolate, etc. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mr.Dragon
09-20-2010, 06:32 AM
Far more likely the'll implement these Naga and their water based BUT NOT AQUATIC society:
http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Naga_%28Ashan%29

Xenofex_086
09-20-2010, 02:46 PM
@smithey33, to cut the long story short, I'll say that it seems like you are proposing something that looks more like a swamp faction than a sea/ocean-based one. There is a good chance to have such with the initial release of MMH VI anyway, so I won't debate on this. The things that have something to do with a sea-born faction will simply not be implemented with the current game mechanics - nobody will start making specialized siege equipment only for sieges agains such castle, nor will try to invent a way to place a town that emerges from the ocean on a normal map (the only possibility will be to make this thing emerge on the beach, which will ultimately make it a beach faction, ruled by Emperor Hasselhoff... yeah, it doesn't sound very epic, I know), just to point a few possible complications. And there is no good explanation why someone living in the sea will be ready to wage a global war (on all possible terrains, like all the other factions) - just think about it reversely - why would the normal terrestrial inhabitants want to go to the sae, which is extremely more hostile to them than the dry land and which offers almost nothing they want, except maybe being an extra food source?
I am not proposing new factions because of two main reasons: it is already decided that the initial release will provide us with exactly 5 factions and it is decided which they will be, so there is no point in dreaming up; given that the factions are less than in any previous HoMM game, except HoMM I, and that we certainly won't have either Academy or Dungeon - two symbolic ones - with the initial version of the game, it is relatively safe to assume that the expansion(s) will be, at least predominantly, dedicated to the return of the old fellas. There is also one more sub-reason - I strongly doubt that Ubi will pay attention to the demands for a new, fan-requested faction, earlier than HoMM VIII (or whatever name they give it). Most likely they already have a complete or nearly complete vision for the game world in this particular part of the series and will follow it no matter what you or I suggest.

Mr.Dragon
09-20-2010, 03:02 PM
However Xenofex, remember that they promised to bring a large number of new creatures to the table, seeing as with the Undead they have so far brought one, possibly three going by the artwork.
Haven is already sporting 3 classics and we KNOW Angels will join them making 4.
Finally Inferno is sporting two stanard Inferno units.
What better way to introduce a large number of new creatures then to drop in a new faction with different flavour of most previous factions allowing for a larger number of new beasties to join the ranks.

I'll try and dig up the quote, but not right now cus I'm dead tired.

I'm getting the feeling we're getting 4 stable factions with which we are quite familiar and 1 wild card.
I'm also getting the feeling they will go for multiple smaller and quicker expansions which will introduce a new faction each time.

Of course this quote could be a figment of my imagination in which case this might just be pointless speculation but I will find out tomorrow.

Edit: ended up looking for it now anyway cus I was waaay to curious.
"40 percent of the creatures per faction will be entirely new"
http://gamescom.gamespot.com/s...newsfeatures%3Btitle (http://gamescom.gamespot.com/story/6273924/might-and-magic-vi-heroes-impressions/?tag=newsfeatures%3Btitle)
Ok not exactly what I thought it would be but still good news.
That means both in the case of 7 or 8 units per faction, around 3 should be new.

This doesn't negate the chance of a new faction though, just that 60% of the creatures of this new faction will be creatures familiar to the franchise, judging by faction juggles in the past, it is entirely possible.

smithey33
09-21-2010, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
@smithey33, to cut the long story short, I'll say that it seems like you are proposing something that looks more like a swamp faction than a sea/ocean-based one. There is a good chance to have such with the initial release of MMH VI anyway, so I won't debate on this. The things that have something to do with a sea-born faction will simply not be implemented with the current game mechanics - nobody will start making specialized siege equipment only for sieges agains such castle, nor will try to invent a way to place a town that emerges from the ocean on a normal map (the only possibility will be to make this thing emerge on the beach, which will ultimately make it a beach faction, ruled by Emperor Hasselhoff... yeah, it doesn't sound very epic, I know), just to point a few possible complications. And there is no good explanation why someone living in the sea will be ready to wage a global war (on all possible terrains, like all the other factions) - just think about it reversely - why would the normal terrestrial inhabitants want to go to the sae, which is extremely more hostile to them than the dry land and which offers almost nothing they want, except maybe being an extra food source?
I am not proposing new factions because of two main reasons: it is already decided that the initial release will provide us with exactly 5 factions and it is decided which they will be, so there is no point in dreaming up; given that the factions are less than in any previous HoMM game, except HoMM I, and that we certainly won't have either Academy or Dungeon - two symbolic ones - with the initial version of the game, it is relatively safe to assume that the expansion(s) will be, at least predominantly, dedicated to the return of the old fellas. There is also one more sub-reason - I strongly doubt that Ubi will pay attention to the demands for a new, fan-requested faction, earlier than HoMM VIII (or whatever name they give it). Most likely they already have a complete or nearly complete vision for the game world in this particular part of the series and will follow it no matter what you or I suggest.

1. I havent proposed it at all, im all for dark elves faction coz what can i say i like sexy ladies in my games
2. what i said is a water based faction not a swamp one, difference being water based creatures instead of gnolls, wyverns and those flyin thingies they had
3. specialized siege equipment, dont make me laugh, its a matter of half an hour work
4. emerging town or half in half out town is easily done with todays technology, terrain can be water with crystalized/shallow water path over which the armies can move
5. gave u a motive, ancient species awakened after centuries of sleep, once ruled it all, can do land and sea, wanna rule the world, why would someone wanna conquer the sea ? i donno go over history lessons of our world, the same goes for water based faction its called world domination
6. will anybody from ubisoft look at the suggestions ? i doubt that, however this is a forum where ppl exchange their opinions and wishes, has way more to do with fans exchanging notes or whatever than actually believing it will change the upcoming games...

Mr.Dragon
09-21-2010, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by smithey33:
1. I havent proposed it at all, im all for dark elves faction coz what can i say i like sexy ladies in my games

Yes and no for me, I'm ok with 1 elf, maybe 2 in the faction but more monsters less elves please.

Originally posted by smithey33:
3. specialized siege equipment, dont make me laugh, its a matter of half an hour work

Uhm... just creating high quality models and textures with today's graphics standards is actually quite a large workload for a development team, let alone coding this all seperately.

Originally posted by smithey33:
4. emerging town or half in half out town is easily done with todays technology, terrain can be water with crystalized/shallow water path over which the armies can move

No it is not, see point 3.
Also how would this town fit into a generic map in the same starting conditions for other towns?

Originally posted by smithey33:
6. will anybody from ubisoft look at the suggestions ? i doubt that, however this is a forum where ppl exchange their opinions and wishes, has way more to do with fans exchanging notes or whatever than actually believing it will change the upcoming games...
Actually they have several prominent members of the fanbase on the development team, and have explicitly stated they are actually paying attention to a few forums such as the Heroes 6 "Altar of Wishes" on http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=5
Obviously they will take all the fan outbursts with a pinch of salt because simple fact of the matter is that very few vocal people on the internet are capable of voicing good ideas and know what they want.

As for point 2.
Well a Swamp is water based, swamps are defined in fact by their water content.
But now I'm just being a smartass.
What I really want to say is that a swamp faction is a much easier less development time intensive and more sensible way to use aquatic creatures.

Point 5 is just horribly generic but you came up with it in a minute so that's fine.
It's a non-issue until the other points can be resolved.
The very real problem is again:
In the space where game mechanics and lore meet we run into the oddity of why the aquatic faction doesn't just tap all the mines underwater, the ones other factions can't reach without magic or special equipment (which would suck up development time).


Closing:
I'm not saying it can't be done.
I'm saying it's horribly inefficient and inelegant compared to a semi-aquatic swamp faction which does not require massive amounts of additional development time then a usual faction.
If it was that easy to make stuff games like HoMM wouldn't take frikkin YEARS to make.
Would I like an aquatic faction? yeah, I guess.
Do I think it's necessary? no, not really.
Do I think a swamp faction can cover the same bases easier? hells yes.

smithey33
09-21-2010, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Dragon:
Yes and no for me, I'm ok with 1 elf, maybe 2 in the faction but more monsters less elves please.
of course i wasnt talkin about 7 elves, we wouldnt want another dwarf faction, 2-3 hot elf ladies one of them probably on a griffin/pegasus/spider/panther/whatever and 4-5 cool creatures like manticore, chimera or some new type a dragon


Originally posted by Mr.Dragon:
Uhm... just creating high quality models and textures with today's graphics standards is actually quite a large workload for a development team, let alone coding this all seperately.
actually its not hard to do, they use the same model like in the other towns all they have to do is change the appearance of the siege weapon(its animation thingy)


Originally posted by Mr.Dragon:
No it is not, see point 3.
Also how would this town fit into a generic map in the same starting conditions for other towns?

it doesnt have to emerge from water, it can look like its half inside the water, picture towers or other buildings above the water level while lower buildings arent visible coz of the water as if it was some sort of a flooded city, if its in water terrain it looks like part of the sea, desert it looks like oasis, forest a lake or a pond, vulcanic area well thats just freaky LOL...


Originally posted by Mr.Dragon:
Actually they have several prominent members of the fanbase on the development team, and have explicitly stated they are actually paying attention to a few forums such as the Heroes 6 "Altar of Wishes" on http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=5
Obviously they will take all the fan outbursts with a pinch of salt because simple fact of the matter is that very few vocal people on the internet are capable of voicing good ideas and know what they want.
its a marketin thingy, ur sayin u care about the fans, u get them involved in the project it creates a greater buzz and improves sales


Originally posted by Mr.Dragon:
As for point 2.
Well a Swamp is water based, swamps are defined in fact by their water content.
But now I'm just being a smartass.
What I really want to say is that a swamp faction is a much easier less development time intensive and more sensible way to use aquatic creatures..
ur probably right, i always prefer harder than easier, im not a huge fan of the swamp faction coz of that fly thingy' lizard thingy and gnolls or whatever it was and i didnt even suggest the sea faction, i just kinda ran with the idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Originally posted by Mr.Dragon:
Point 5 is just horribly generic but you came up with it in a minute so that's fine.
It's a non-issue until the other points can be resolved.
The very real problem is again:
In the space where game mechanics and lore meet we run into the oddity of why the aquatic faction doesn't just tap all the mines underwater, the ones other factions can't reach without magic or special equipment (which would suck up development time). dont see why is everyone preoccupied with the underwater thingy, necromancers are underground yet they cant stash the mines underground, devils are vulcanic yet they dont stash them inside lava so the whole water thingy shouldnt mean they live on the bottom of the ocean or smth, they're just water based, thats all


Originally posted by Mr.Dragon:
Closing:
I'm not saying it can't be done.
I'm saying it's horribly inefficient and inelegant compared to a semi-aquatic swamp faction which does not require massive amounts of additional development time then a usual faction.
If it was that easy to make stuff games like HoMM wouldn't take frikkin YEARS to make.
Would I like an aquatic faction? yeah, I guess.
Do I think it's necessary? no, not really.
Do I think a swamp faction can cover the same bases easier? hells yes.

im not sayin there should be a water based faction either, im not even pro-swamp... i would just like them to shake things up a little bit, to make smth new and cool, coz some of the factions were a bit boring IMO and i do hope they make creatures that look nice unlike that "fried chicken" they called phoenix in HOMM4 LOL
it would be a cool addition if they were to add a tool which can create a hero, lets say leave 1 or 2 empty hero spots for any faction and u get to create your own hero, u make your own character who will go through campaign or through single plyr game, that way ppl feel like they're a part of the process and actually can relate to whoever they're playing with coz they kinda made him/her.. i think ppl would like that... would they ??? hmm.. gonna make a thread and ask others too

Mr.Dragon
09-21-2010, 05:12 AM
I believe they actually mentioned you being able to choose the gender of your hero, so I think a few more minor customization options are planned.

And yes it would be very cool to get a Warcraft III style data editor where we could very easily modify more or less everything in the game, including factions, heroes, artifacts, creatures etc.

Ygds11
09-25-2010, 02:11 AM
I definitely voted yes to the fortress of HoMM3 returning. The fortress was instantaneously my favorite right from my first view of it on the town selection screen. I have always had a fondness for wetlands and slippery squirmy things in the mud. It also just happened to include 2 of my favorite mythological creatures (the basilisk and the gorgon/catoblepas).

It has not escaped my notice that the discussion about an Oceanic type faction is a little heated. In my opinion such a faction would be bordering on impossible to include without having lengthy explanations for it's involvement. The way I see it, the writers have placed themselves into a state of story lock. Certain things are limited, essentially creativity was limited with the creation of Ashen and it's history. This does not mean that truly new factions are impossible to include, just that they set a new tone for everything. Dragons are now representative and divine within each faction except the orc/stronghold faction. This is the sort of limiting factor. It makes it very likely that dragons will remain the primary option for top tier units. An Oceanic town needs to not only fit in with the game mechanics but also with the Ashen Mythos. it cannot be added just for interests sake, the faction would be hollow.

From the tone of the published timeline it appears that the world of Ashen has several options for new factions but these are limited by the world history given. Those I have seen discussed are the Faceless and Beastmen/people.

The Swamp/fortresses only real chance of returning in an easily recognizable manner is through it's convenience as an abode for one of these races. There is no longer a division of factions, it is now a division of races. At least half of the units in a faction are now the same species. At one time this was only true of the human factions Castle/haven.

in any case the point is the first 5 factions to show in the next installment must have something to do with known alignments as they are meant to be at least within the knowledge scope of the Haven faction (each of the faction campaigns are centered around a member of the same family whose geographical residence is within the described Griffin Empire. Which means being geographically close to the residencies of factions that have already made an appearance. Though this is a large geographical area, it may nonetheless then be concluded that the "new" factions will be for previously mentioned but not described races. In other words all of this is wishful thinking. The new mythology will remain highly constrictive till new lands are revealed or shown to exist at all in the writers imagination and more history is explicated or elaborated.

The fortress/swamp while very close to the heart breathed it's dying breath with the end of Erathia and Axeoth. And an Oceanic town would require, I am afraid, more of an expansion in the Mythos (not to mention the gameplay but that has already been mentioned) than it seems is possible given the time shift (prequel not sequel) and scope of the Ashen Universe as it has already been presented.

Mr.Dragon
09-25-2010, 10:59 AM
Actually There is plenty of room for new factions and units.

First off, the time-line isn't set in stone, what we know from Heroes V presumably is as it has been recored by the people of Ashan, which may be incomplete or even partially incorrect.
This makes it easy to avoid calling minor alterations a "retcon".

Another thing is:
We already know that the first three factions revealed are highly unlikely to contain dragons based on artwork, screenshots and previous history in the game.
Currently it LOOKS LIKE Necro will skip the Bone Dragon/Ghost Dragon.

Then we have both the available topography and canon lore and records for a water/swamp based faction of Naga which are worshippers of Shallasa the Water Dragon.
So Fortress returning (though according to ToTE buried files it was supposed to be called Sanctuary) in the form of a Naga run society is quite possible.

Alternatively maybe the Faceless are running a show, possibly even a pre-elf Dungeon.

Finally they could pull a new continent onto the western side of the map (or south or noth) or expand the continent to the east.
In a world with magical portals and otherworldy demon realms geographical and/or cultural distance isn't much of a factor.

Maybe the fifth child clawed it's way up through the fifth faction's "alien" (not literally) society from the very bottom rung.

So while there are SOME restrictions, there aren't many, this world is easier to expand upon then you might think.

Ygds11
09-27-2010, 09:01 AM
Well I'll be a monkey's uncle I was completely unaware of that. if any new faction is likely,the naga seem to fit the bill. With that much work put into them, it seems like a great candidate. thankyou

Aikidoca
09-29-2010, 10:32 PM
i like the idea about a sea temed faction, is very easy create new creatures based on water, like sea nagas(like in wow and war3where come from the idea i thing), or mermaids or newt ppls, hydras leviathan, cracken giant turtles, giant crabs or maybe murlocs(lol).

white_wizar1986
10-02-2010, 05:41 PM
We all saw the fortress in H3 and H5,
they will never remake the fortress of H3 with gnolls and weird *** bulls called gorgons.
It were creatures appearing that time in the other might and magic series
The lineup of H5 was more logical imo centaurs,cyclops,goblins,...
I miss the dungeon more with medusa's and beholders,harpies and stuff.
Love to see those 2 towns back infact.
But my vote goes to the sea faction,with mermaids,tritons and krakens,serpents,seawitches,...
A townconcept loved by many fans and dispised by those who think changes will ruin the feel of homm,or those that cant imagine to put it in motion.

I think it's the only completly new town,never seen before,that would actually be totally awesome.
I've seen some pretty colorful screens of Hmm6,and i believe this town can add color and flavour
And it can be very simple implemented in the game.with still an epic look.
It would also prove they are taking Hmm6 to next level.
Except for all the pretty extra artwork and diffrent terrain types.Hmm would be richer in content then ever before.More map editing options too..

for example take a look at world of warcraft cataclysm and what they are doing

abyssal maw (http://news.mmosite.com/content/2010-05-05/cataclysm_beta_screenshots_the_underwater_instance ,1.shtml)
mounts (http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cataclysmguide.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/seahorse.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cataclysmguide.net/cataclysm-screenshots/cataclysm-mounts-camels-and-seahorses&usg=__rA9YtPyxoGHjTqJqUsBXbs4YTNg=&h=420&w=800&sz=47&hl=nl&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=235A4_BWNhFc2M:&tbnh=114&tbnw=217&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwow%2Bunderwater%2Bmounts%26um%3D1%26 hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1306%26bih%3D618%26tbs%3D isch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=586&vpy=269&dur=362&hovh=163&hovw=310&tx=101&ty=54&ei=y8anTJ_YDoSaOsTr7fcM&oei=y8anTJ_YDoSaOsTr7fcM&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0)
They are creating a whole underwater world,combat system,mounts,...Look at how gorgeous an ocean faction could be.
I know lots of people are nagging about how the hell would they move on land and ****..
But look at the trailer,even angels can go to hell...
Its as simple as some kind of powerful air breathing amulet artifact or something they carry along.
Also look at the link,there is a pic of some called possible "land units" under water,
very simple;"water breathing " spell has always been in the might and magic series..
if they fight in water and the hero has water breathing on,there could be some gravity moon like/half swimming motions.
Ofcourse,it will take some extra effort making those motions,thus taking hmm to a next lvl

As there will be only 5 factions at release it will be unlikely they'll put it in the original game,but fingers crossed for atlantis
surely with all the dragon god like stuff going on there could be room for an uber seadragon god lurking in the depths

GoranXII
10-02-2010, 06:41 PM
What works in an RPG doesn't necessarily work in a RTS, and water based faction is one of those thing that just plain doesn't work since you can't gather resources out at sea. Oh and remember, that the shipyard is going to need a couple of pre-requisite buildings before it can be build, so you're basically going to be stuck for about a week.

Honestly people, a cool faction is a good faction, but it does have to be workable.

white_wizar1986
10-03-2010, 04:39 AM
As far is I know Hmm is a TBS with Rpg and mythological elements.I played Homm for years and the only lack of hommIII was a sea based faction,both on maps with sea and when making maps.RTS is for example age of mythology,and even that RTS does also work with atlantean units and seagods like oceanus and poseidon.It even has an expansion devoted to atlanteans.

An example of top notch TBS is Alpha centauri.
sea resources (http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://i.neoseeker.com/p/Games/Linux/Strategy/Turn-Based/Alpha_Centauri_profilelarge.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forum.fok.nl/topic/1353841&usg=__vxRBFyWqQ09icFhyf7R0viYnZr4=&h=480&w=640&sz=54&hl=nl&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=p6XNCqLKfiG3RM:&tbnh=151&tbnw=200&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dalpha%2Bcentauri%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%2 6sa%3DN%26biw%3D1306%26bih%3D618%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=496&ei=llioTJ-HFtHPjAeDmr3bDA&oei=JlioTO3kBoHDswaVxLTCDA&esq=11&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0&tx=65&ty=93)
The game graphics maybe seem old.
But they do had sea resources and unit,buildings,..
Making the game very replayable,and lots of hours fun with map editing.
Thats what a sea based faction would really do to Homm,making it replayable.Adding to the colorful world with fierce beasts.
Making it more flavoring.that town would actually have a meaning adding.making as well nival as land combat attractive,versatile.Now with modern graphics Atlantis like faction would be a masterpiece.And they can implement it really simply,you just need to imagine more than only a shipyard.

I think I've missed something about heroes going nival.It didn't took a week,one turn to enter the ship in previous games.
But as mentioned there could be alternatives to ships,water breathing,amulet for
the oceanics,...the nival/land border is something they could change easily.

Xenofex_086
10-03-2010, 04:51 AM
You are all avoiding the question how will the terrestrial and the sea factions use the same resources and battle under the same circumstances. If someone can propose reasonable game mechanics for the implementation of a sea faction within the HoMM world, I will wholeheartedly agree with the concept.

white_wizar1986
10-03-2010, 05:34 AM
the water element never seemed to have problems fighting under the same circumstances or with
combat mechanics as land units did it?
Its just a matter of tuning the atlantis like faction.
Resources has always been diffrent for diffrent kind of factions.
some used lots of wood and gems,others gems and gold,..
The altanteans could be more interested in gold and crystals for example.
The demoniacs in sulfer and mercury,and so on..
Consider also this,unholy faction like demons and undeath invading a holy town with angels...
They still fight under the same circumstances at places some might consider unpossible"
,nobody makes a problem of that now,cause they did a good job developing in hommIII.
The design is important,not what if this or that..
If the faction has the right feel people will accept it automatically,even if its crap in
in next homms like the undeath and demonics,or the one mixed together in HommIV,that was simply aweful.
It's just a matter of how they would make those mechanical appealing and fierce in combat..
As a designer and sculpturer I can say alot is possible these days.
And i believe in our new hungarian friends,they would add the right feel to an oceanic faction.
Lots of people are afraid of new things in homm,but oceanic mythology is older as Homm and therefore that ancient feel would fit perfect and add more to the game.Not only the play and richness of the game,but also the map editing and replayability, is very important to a game.and then Homm needs to be good on every possible terrain.
as well as nival and land combat.

Xenofex_086
10-03-2010, 06:08 AM
That doesn't work because you can't have trees growing on the bottom of the sea, just to give one example. Each resource has to be equally accessible for each faction, otherwise either the sea people or the terrestrial guys will find themselves in disadvantage.
As for the water elementals - they are summoned creatures which participate in the battles only. They don't have to be taken into account when you are planning the logistical part of the campaign (which may include marching through very inhospitable terrains) and they don't have to stay "alive" more than the few hours of the battle itself.
Also a town which emerges from the sea will either have to be accessible for the enemies via some land bridge, which is rather stupid for a pure water faction and makes the movement towards the town an actual walk through a tunnel; or it will have to be done via ships, which puts the terrestrial factions in disadvantage - they will need shipyards, they will have to spend resources on ships and - if the current game mechanics are kept - they will have to waste time loading and unloading troops.

GoranXII
10-03-2010, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
An example of top notch TBS is Alpha centauri.
sea resources (http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://i.neoseeker.com/p/Games/Linux/Strategy/Turn-Based/Alpha_Centauri_profilelarge.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forum.fok.nl/topic/1353841&usg=__vxRBFyWqQ09icFhyf7R0viYnZr4=&h=480&w=640&sz=54&hl=nl&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=p6XNCqLKfiG3RM:&tbnh=151&tbnw=200&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dalpha%2Bcentauri%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%2 6sa%3DN%26biw%3D1306%26bih%3D618%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=496&ei=llioTJ-HFtHPjAeDmr3bDA&oei=JlioTO3kBoHDswaVxLTCDA&esq=11&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0&tx=65&ty=93)
The game graphics maybe seem old.
But they do had sea resources and unit,buildings,..
None of the factions start out on the sea, they all start on the lands and move to the sea later, which essentially kills this as an analogy.


the water element never seemed to have problems fighting under the same circumstances or with
combat mechanics as land units did it?
Maybe, but you can't make a faction out of them. Giant Crabs may work as high-tier units, but sea serpents and Krakens are unlikely to.


Resources has always been diffrent for diffrent kind of factions.
some used lots of wood and gems,others gems and gold,..
All use fairly hefty amounts of wood, which doesn't grow at sea.


Consider also this,unholy faction like demons and undeath invading a holy town with angels...
They still fight under the same circumstances at places some might consider unpossible"
,nobody makes a problem of that now,cause they did a good job developing in hommIII.
How is invading a town on grass any less possible than in the snow, or on a cooled lava-sheet?


If the faction has the right feel people will accept it automatically,even if its crap in
in next homms like the undeath and demonics,or the one mixed together in HommIV,that was simply aweful.
It's just a matter of how they would make those mechanical appealing and fierce in combat..
Which is where you run into big issues, no matter how cool a water faction might look, designing the game-play mechanics to go with it would be a nightmare.


As a designer and sculpturer I can say alot is possible these days.
What is possible and what is practical are often two different things. Adding a water faction might be cool, but if sorting out the details is going to push the game back a few months then they're not going to do it.


Lots of people are afraid of new things in homm,but oceanic mythology is older as Homm and therefore that ancient feel would fit perfect and add more to the game.
That's only your opinion.


Not only the play and richness of the game,but also the map editing and replayability, is very important to a game.and then Homm needs to be good on every possible terrain.
There are a lot more ways to increase replayability than by trying to introduce a water faction.

white_wizar1986
10-03-2010, 09:19 AM
you can't have trees growing in lava and fire either.
Seafaction would surely have another resource structure.
There can be crystals and gems at sea.Not every faction uses the same buildingresources in equal amounts.
As mentioned before,Atlanteans may be in need of crystals and minerals while infernal faction needs sulfer and mercury,for example.

In H6 they are linking mines and dwellings to a faction nearby,exept when you're on hostile terrain,capturing their mine with a hero on top.
So,most of the time the right and logical basic materials for the corresponding faction would appear in the correct environment.at least in a small amount.
Because it's natural a faction would use nearby terrain bound material to build their towns with.
The whole appearance of factions is influenced by its environmental elements,as well as resources available in that environment.
For example,a castle's climate is green with trees and stones,so the castle's logical basic building material is wood and ore.
for more complex building they'll perhaps need a bit of foreign material;sulfer.
So they need to go out to conquer resources in order to attain the champion unit.
For sea units this would mean they need to move on land to find that rare resource,for land units it is the extra gems,crystals.Might be one of the reasons why they go nival at some point; for the extra.cause there are crystals and gems at sea,for example..
2 very diffrent kind of factions,true.one starting at sea,another at land.But to get rare resource both land and sea factions need to explore and conquer.no matter if its starting at land or sea...Some basic resources are in its own environment.but the rare are elsewhere..
And even if its the only faction starting at sea;it wouldn't screw up the game,cause whatever resource are the basics they need to conquer elsewhere for the rare,they need to cross a border.The goal of the factions is still the same.thus won't screw up the game.

Surely there can't grow wood in the sea but who says they'll need wood alot?
Perhaps they can do research on flotsam or something,to use wood and other landjunk as siegweapons against land units.
wich brings me to another question;wich uses could less relevant resources have to a faction?wouldnt it be sweet if they
could do research on that materials or something?To discover some weaknesses of other factions or something..
But thats stuff for another topic for sure.

It sounds like gems,crystals and gold as rare resource,would be more logical for ocean faction to me.
whether its a faction emerging from sea or based on "cooled lava-sheets" or unholy ground
one goal and one in common.

Aside from the better replayability,richer wold,more map editing options,versatile combat with both nival and terrestrial combat...
An ocean faction would also add to what the game is all about;conflicts,not only at land but at sea too!

Concerning water elements i think some of you forgot all about the conflux town in H3,or never played armageddon's blade?
Water elements were permanent,not summoned.And did take part in the campaign.
There was even an elemtalist hero with a water elemental face to it..

Do they need to make the infernal town accesible through a big hellhole for the castle in previous homms?
Do the castle units need a crusifix in order to fight the demons or for self-satisfaction?
Was there a timelimit on how long holy/unholy units could be on a hostile terrain?

I think not,strictly you could make problems out of unholy vs holy/demonic,and any faction really..If you dislike it.

As I mentioned in previous post it's all about the design and the feel to a faction.
It might be less easy to develope mechanics,but i'm one of these persons who believe hard work pays off..

There is a big possibility that lots of people would be begging to see an oceanic based faction again if there was one in Heroes3
Cause thats most of you want;a Homm3 with better graphics.

Accessibility of terrestrial factions/ocean faction is something that can be easily balanced.(And agian,its just a matter of
motion design.)
for example a terrestrial hero needs resources to build a ship,wood and gold,true.
An oceanic hero could need gems and gold to craft a magical amulet so they can travel at land with minor tidal controlings.
Both land and sea faction lose as much if they do so;one day and some materials.Again all about how game developers balance.
Some could move like the water element,some by fierce sharp paws,other by minor tidal controling,..
2 humanoids,like tritons/mermaids wich move like the water element and a seawitch
seawitch (http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/107/107784i8q4ufvsyk.jpg&imgrefurl=http://treewalkers101.blogspot.com/&usg=__n19AAw6ysUPKaGo3d2PEedguj_k=&h=575&w=383&sz=71&hl=nl&start=40&zoom=1&tbnid=21YZGOjQreGGfM:&tbnh=145&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dseawitches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26biw%3 D1306%26bih%3D618%26tbs%3Disch:10,968&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=414&ei=2oqoTIruPJCRjAebt8TJDA&oei=0YqoTN2nMcaRswbhl5DFDA&esq=3&page=3&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:40&tx=23&ty=58&biw=1306&bih=618)

rest serpent,kraken:for example a behemoth-like creature from H3 but with tentacles and a more sea like tough..aka the kraken from clash of titans xD

I could think of some reasons why an awakening seadragon like god would like to invade and interfer with the terrestrial wars.
Atlanteans disliking the ships and filth of the terrestrials,feeling threatened by the conflicts on land,mad seagod,world domination,...
Look at the score alpha centauri got,they added resources/towns/all kind of naval things.It does add alot depth and interactions between land/seafactions,as well as replayability and map editing.I can tell cause I played both alpha centauri and Homm for ages

GoranXII
10-03-2010, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
you can't have trees growing in lava and fire either.
I'll agree to this since I never really like the way all the basic buildings always cost the same amount of wood and stone regardless of which faction they belonged to.


There can be crystals and gems at sea.Not every faction uses the same buildingresources in equal amounts.
They do for the basic buildings.


As mentioned before,Atlanteans may be in need of crystals and minerals while infernal faction needs sulfer and mercury,for example.
We've only got crystal now, so this isn't a possibility.


In H6 they are linking mines and dwellings to a faction nearby,exept when you're on their mine with a hero.
So,most of the time the right and logical basic materials for the corresponding faction would appear in the correct environment.at least in a small amount.
You still have to be able to travel, which on the sea means having a shipyard, but a shipyard requires a level 12 town...


Surely there can't grow wood in the sea but who says they'll need wood alot?
Because that's unfortunately how gameplay works, or at least how the series has worked up until now, all basic buildings require the same resources regardless of faction.


Aside from the better replayability,richer wold,more map editing options,versatile combat with both nival and terrestrial combat...
Nival? I think you mean Naval Combat (Nival is the company that gave us H5, it's important not to confuse the two).


An ocean faction would also add to what the game is all about;conflicts,not only at land but at sea too!
A real-world concern that is nevertheless seriously difficult to render into a computer game (boarding, while a valid tactic at the time, nevertheless would be hard to render alongside fleet manoeuvring).


Concerning water elements i think some of you forgot all about the conflux town in H3,or never played armageddon's blade?
Water elements were permanent,not summoned.And did take part in the campaign.
There was even an elemtalist hero with a water elemental face to it..
I'm well aware of this (I own H3 Gold), but I'll reiterate, you can't make a faction of water elementals. Besides, Conflux was a weak-themed town that was rushed through because the Forge town ran into serious resistance.


Do they need to make the infernal town accesible through a big hellhole for the castle in previous homms?
Do the castle units need a crusifix in order to fight the demons or for self-satisfaction?
Was there a timelimit on how long holy/unholy units could be on a hostile terrain?
I don't believe there was, no, but both grass and lava-plains are solid ground, water isn't, which poses a problem, since how do you reliably lay siege to a sea based town?


It might be less easy to develope mechanics,but i'm one of these persons who believe hard work pays off..There is a big possibility that lots of people would be begging to see an oceanic based faction again if there was one in Heroes3
Cause thats most of you want;a Homm3 with better graphics.
Well a lot of people would be happy to settle for an updated version of H3 Fortress, it won't be as 'cool' sure, but it'll take at best weeks to code since you don't have to do any work on the basic game mechanics. There's also a fine-line between 'hard work gets result' and 'throwing money down a hole', and as much as i'd like to see a water-based faction, I'm tempted to brand it as the latter.


Accessibility of terrestrial factions/ocean faction is something that can be easily balanced.(And agian,its just a matter of
motion design.)
for example a terrestrial hero needs resources to build a ship,wood and gold,true.
An oceanic hero could need gems and gold to craft a magical amulet so they can travel at land with minor tidal controlings.
An amulet is different from a ship, because remember you'd have to figure in the boarding/unboarding time.


Look at the score alpha centauri got,they added resources/towns/all kind of naval things.It does add alot depth and interactions between land/seafactions,as well as replayability and map editing.I can tell cause I played both alpha centauri and Homm for ages
In Alpha Centauri all of the factions started out on the land, which is rather different to what you're suggesting.

Mr.Dragon
10-03-2010, 10:36 AM
Short version:

An oceanic town is doable but requires LARGE quantities of development town in comparison to a normal one.

Naval combat and the relevance of aquatic terrain can be increased WITHOUT adding an aquatic faction.

An aquatic town needs to work roughly on the same standards of any other town which means just introducing it will be so stuffed with gameplay and/or logic contrivances to the point where it goes from an awesome/cool idea to an immersion breaking catastrophe.

It would be cool if it could be pulled off well but it is a designer's nightmare and simply doesn't suit the series from a gameplay perspective, or at least, of that I am personally convinced.
It's not worth the investment, the Ashan sanctuary (naga town) concept from what we know fills the same nich but dodges all the issues I mentioned above perfectly.
And can include aquatic creatures without stretching to town theme because their culture is based around the Water Dragon Shallasa.

Xenofex_086
10-03-2010, 10:46 AM
you can't have trees growing in lava and fire either.
Well, no, you can't, but you can have a forest that's been burnt after the volcanic eruption and still contains some usable wood material. It's quite a lame explanation, but not totally impossible, especially if the forest was not very close to the volcano in the first place. On the other hand, whatever you do, you can't have forest on the bottom of the sea and as mentioned already, you can't alter the basic resources that each faction uses by default, because it will be a HUGE balancing issue.

Concerning water elements i think some of you forgot all about the conflux town in H3,or never played armageddon's blade?
I've played it and if you remember, the Conflux towns appear more or less wherever they want and disappear with the neutralization of the Kreegan threat, so it's safe to assume that the Conflux creatures don't have many of the problems that the "normal" races have. And as mentioned - the Water Elemental is just one of the 5 elementals in this town.

Do they need to make the infernal town accesible through a big hellhole for the castle in previous homms?
Do the castle units need a crusifix in order to fight the demons or for self-satisfaction?
Was there a timelimit on how long holy/unholy units could be on a hostile terrain?
This is all irrelevant, Inferno is accessible by land (cooled magma). A sea faction isn't.

It might be less easy to develope mechanics,but i'm one of these persons who believe hard work pays off..
Explain it to the devs who usually have restricting time limits to finish their works and to the publishers who rely on the release to turn the hard work into hard currency. Generally I agree with you, but specifically I think we need to concentrate on something that actually can be done.
The rest of your arguments have already been addressed.

white_wizar1986
10-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Not all factions started on the land in Alpha centauri.Perhaps you weren't such a devoted fan to buy the expension of alpha centauri?
There was a pirate faction in alpha centauri Alien crossfire,wich starts in the sea;Nautilus Pirates.

The advantage for starting at sea could be compensated with less creature
growth a week.cause land units will be more likely to get in conflicts faster.
Or there could be more troubles at sea with neutrale units like pirates and such.

Where is it written that shipyards require a lvl 12 town in Heroes 6?
Then again a magical amulet could also have a lvl,and it needs to be crafted,so could take as
much time as boarding/unboarding a ship.Magic could do alot.
The seadragongod could grant the amulet the power* to move armies on land,you could think of anything here really..
some small tidal effects is all it could possibly take imo

I disagree all basic builds of all faction should need the same basic resources regardless of faction.
It should depend on the environmental resources related to the factions habitat
If you go to africa its unlikely you'll see a gaint golden palace with marble stairs and stuff..
The first thing you'll ask yourself upon seeing it is how did they build it,the resources are not common here,..
Infernals using wood as a basic resource is some kinda joke really http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif are they sadomasochistic or simply not hot enough?
Let the basical resources be diffrent for each faction.
And let factions cross eachothers path to look for the rare resources they need for their champion units
and epic buildings..thats how there is interaction and confict,fight over resources and territorium.
I hope they change the gameplay big time concerning this then.

If we only get crystals aside from wood and ore,i would be quite dissapointed.
But then agian crystals can be found both at sea and land..
Sea faction could work on those 3;ore and crystals,flotsam stuff for decorations,flotsam wood for research for example.
Not in the form of trees but flotsam wood.
But lets not talk about the resources unless they officially announce wich resources and how factions will work using them..

And ofcourse I meant naval xD we don't want nival now we've got hongarians on the game.
(As some might have noticed I'm not an english orale.)Well hongarians actually knows something about designing and creating figures.

I'm not saying you have to make a town only out of the water elements,or naga's i was purely talking about its motions and the fact that it
is a water element.Being able to go on hostile territory,solid lava plains,..
There are plenty of creatures to fill an atlantic like town with,shortage on that isnt the issue here either.

There will be more development involved creating an ocean town,than the same ones we've always seen before,true..
Yet i believe if they succeed it would improve the gameplay big time.
Instead of an "immersion" breaking catastrophe i believe it would be a "refreshing" element to the game.
Stuffing a game with logic appealing contrivances is a kind of magic you do as designer of animations.It IS magic...
Magic systems ingame can also be awesome cool or an immersing breaking catastrophe when taking effects and motion in account.
I believe in this developer of homm.
And thats why i say go for it black hole entertainment..
I'm not sure if its a designers nightmare,you seem to have little faith in the hungarians http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
And who can say it is or isn't worth the investment?only the ones who knows the developers well enough to say what they are capable of doing.

Now the diffrence in consistancy are solved by magic,waterbreathing,magical amulets for an example,channeling mages,...name it baby..
siege on sea based towns could be done with harpoons instead of catapults.
And/or orbs containing the prismatic magic to burst their walls with high impact even underwater.(prismatic school is confirmed in H6)
while sea based heroes will have some crowd controle spell to manipulate the flows,to put an enemy unit in a small whirlpool
or put cold embrace" on a unit for example.
While water breathing is active a slighty moon gravity fluent motion will be active on land units for example
On word is the key for all this ;magic
And a great develop team http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Well as there are but 5 factions in orginal release it is unlikely they will do extra efforts while they can use 5 towns that already existed in homm before,but fingers crossed for at least an expansion with an original approach

Mr.Dragon
10-03-2010, 01:30 PM
Please do not take this the wrong way I am merely stating my opinions and observations would like to keep this civil.
I am critiquing your points because I care, not because I am a spiteful person or do not like you. (having never met you I cannot judge.)
*finishes casting "anti-flame-war"*


You're treating Magic as "all purpose plot insulation" along the lines with "unobtainium" or "element X" this is one of CORNERSTONES of bad writing.
Magic in many settings, including the Heroes series has always followed at least SOME rules.
Relying on Magic to cover up massive contrivancies is like covering up a gaping hole in your bedroom wall with a pretty poster.

Yes it would badly effect gameplay, we have always had all factions use ALL resources, some used more and relied upon certain ones for their Tier 7 units but every faction used everything, in addition in the new design we have LESS resources, 4 instead of 7.
Less resources is a more an effective design, just look at Starcraft, 2 resources can be more then enough to manage.

Balancing one faction with less growth as countermeasure to having a ridiculous terrain advantage is a terrible design and nigh impossible to balance.

Your point on buildings in cultures/environments is irrelevant, look at Heroes towns through the ages, they've all had extremely differing architecture, not just in style but in substance, the existing resources were merely proxies that got the point across.

They have announced how they are doing resources.
Wood, Ore, Gold and Crystal.

Nobody suggested a shortage of water based creatures.

Contrivancies are inherently something that should be avoided as much as possible, sometimes it is a necessary evil but at it's core, they weaken the story as a whole.

As for my faith in the developers, I have a huge amount of faith in them, they are making HEAPS of AWESOME changes to the series I'd say, they are so far, I think, doing a great job but even Blizzard Entertainment, my favorite game company since they released Warcraft: Orcs and Humans would rattle my faith if they tried this.

Also, how would it improve gameplay? it doesn't add any depth, it infact slows it down by creating a barrier that has to be overcome between the sea faction and all the other ones.

Siege on the Sea Faction would require not just different siege equipment but seperate magical effects to allow any non-aquatic beast to walk on or in water including those made out of flaming hot magma pouring from their flesh (demons).

They have NOT confirmed a prismatic school.
They have confirmed a Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Dark, Light and Primal (Order/Chaos in other words: Asha/Urgash) magic school system.

Once again: I think it COULD be done, but is an EXTREMELY inelegant way of handling it when there are significantly more elegant choices available that are simultaneously easier to pull off. (Sanctuary)


However I think we have differing opinions and neither of us will convince the other.
You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.
I however believe you are vastly underestimating the impact on gameplay and development time.

GoranXII
10-03-2010, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
Not all factions started on the land in Alpha centauri.Perhaps you weren't such a devoted fan to buy the expension of alpha centauri?
There was a pirate faction in alpha centauri Alien crossfire,wich starts in the sea;Nautilus Pirates.

[quote]The advantage for starting at sea could be compensated with less creature
growth a week.cause land units will be more likely to get in conflicts faster.
Lower growth combined with limited access to resources? A sure-fire loser.


Where is it written that shipyards require a lvl 12 town in Heroes 6?
Nowhere, but then we haven't exactly got anything else to go on have we?


Then again a magical amulet could also have a lvl,and it needs to be crafted,so could take as
much time as boarding/unboarding a ship.Magic could do alot.
Yeah, but you only have to craft the amulet once, after that


I disagree all basic builds of all faction should need the same basic resources regardless of faction.
So do I, but Ubisoft has their own ideas.


Infernals using wood as a basic resource is some kinda joke really http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif are they sadomasochistic or simply not hot enough?
Let the basical resources be diffrent for each faction.
Agreed, more stone for Inferno and Academy, more wood for Sylvan and Haven.


And let factions cross eachothers path to look for the rare resources they need for their champion units
and epic buildings..thats how there is interaction and confict,fight over resources and territorium.
I hope they change the gameplay big time concerning this then.
They won't, not now, not with a march '11 release date.


If we only get crystals aside from wood and ore,i would be quite dissapointed.
Then be disappointed, because this was one of the first confirmations.


But then agian crystals can be found both at sea and land..
Crystals at see are just a wee bit harder to access since you have to carry air down with you.


Sea faction could work on those 3;ore and crystals,flotsam stuff for decorations,flotsam wood for research for example.
Not in the form of trees but flotsam wood.
No, there needs to be a stable supply, and flotsam isn't.


But lets not talk about the resources unless they officially announce wich resources and how factions will work using them..
4 resources were announced back in august.


Well hongarians actually knows something about designing and creating figures.
I'm sure they do, but Ubisoft has the final say on things, and I have no faith in them.


There are plenty of creatures to fill an atlantic like town with,shortage on that isnt the issue here either.
Making a lineup of those that can move at more than a crawl (speed in this case, not actual style of locomotion) out of water is just a little more tricky.


There will be more development involved creating an ocean town,than the same ones we've always seen before,true..
Yet i believe if they succeed it would improve the gameplay big time.
Big enough to offset the godawful extra cost of reworking virtually every system to fit this one town?


I'm not sure if its a designers nightmare,you seem to have little faith in the hungarians http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Right now I've not seen any real reason to have faith. Oh, sure, Blackhole is probably a good company, but IMO the decisions that Ubisoft is taking with the way the game goes I doubt I'll be particularly fond of it, no matter who programs it.


And who can say it is or isn't worth the investment?only the ones who knows the developers well enough to say what they are capable of doing.
They may be capable of doing it, but whether they consider it worthwhile is another matter.


siege on sea based towns could be done with harpoons instead of catapults.
And how are creatures supposed to move around? Most of them can't breath underwater, or swim very easily.


And/or orbs containing the prismatic magic to burst their walls with high impact even underwater.(prismatic school is confirmed in H6)
No, the 7 spells that have been confirmed are Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Light, Dark and Primordial.


Well as there are but 5 factions in orginal release it is unlikely they will do extra efforts while they can use 5 towns that already existed in homm before,but fingers crossed for at least an expansion with an original approach
Actually we're getting one new town this first time around, with the common theory being Naga (water worshippers, swamp based).

white_wizar1986
10-03-2010, 03:51 PM
I'm not used to write in such fancy english no,as i mentioned before i'm not an english orale.A sea based faction would be definetly be more magic than might.
Magic is not the solution to everything in Homm.I perhaps stated it a bit wrong.
Designers are there for covering up the holes with prettyness;effects(and hopefully some ingame depth too)
Magical powers are for making the impossible possible.Translating it to the game
with a story to it..
Along with how well developers will do the effects,and ofcourse lots
of extra efforts would be involved to make it work properly.
If they could make it work it would be marvelous.
But we are only guessing,we won't know unless we play,even the castle or any faction can be a total disaster,who can say.although I do love the griffin.

Covering up a gaping hole in your bedroom wall with a pretty poster is more how i would describe the last Heroes V release,with endless turns...
Lots of prettyness,but not many options when it comes to mapsize and playability with factions.
crappy campaign movies with even worse english as mine and such..

I think for the original release of Heroes 6 they won't do extra's and
keep the same old towns we always had in homm.They know a completely new town is a sensitive subject with hardcore fans.
But i have faith in the developer and I voted yes to the ocean faction.
Ok,So a naga town has been confirmed ej,well love to see more of it...

About the resources im clearly not on the same level as some.
But ofcourse,less resource makes the game easier.
Less micro managment to trouble kids with ^^
I on the other hand love it,if I could i would implement a system that could change the mines i'm actively collecting resources from the most at any certain moment.
based on the amount of power I have to put more minions collecting more from one type of mine.

I guess you mean each type of town had diffrent architectures through the series.yes
And they've never stayed true to a single factions"feel".
But was that a possitive thing?
See at how they srewed it up in Heroes IV by blending towns like the inferno,necropolis together..
Heroes V was reasonable,cause they regained the environmental aspect to each faction.
the creatures were devided better over the towns with the right habitat feel to it.
So i believe my point cultures/environments isn't that irrelevant.
There is a reason why they plan to give mines and dwellings to the nearest faction.
Not only for useless running but also resources related i believe.

As you mentioned,you have your opinion,I have mine.It seems I was wrong about the prismatic magic though..
But then it would just belong to the light school.Light containing orbs inflicting massive rays of damage at the emerging ocean faction.
How i see the land units moving underwater,i already said my vision on that in previous post no?I can only explain more with drawings..but i have no time for that now.

The town itself will add to the diversity of the gameplay.Depending on if they implement it well,whether or not you'll be able to have alliances and such could also change a big deal.
Fact is there has always been a sea terrain,always lifeless,dull and empty..ok some small buildings and couple of woods to pick up and whirlpools you'de better avoid,but that was it..
An ocean faction would mean you could actually be able to include the naval part in world domination,
istead of the sea to just be some kind of "passing by" thing.
The sea has always been threated like some sort of sewer where you can pick up rotting wood and some resources
and flush away some of your units through a whirlpool once in a while,get some debuff by a drunken harpy,...
But for me it feels like that isnt enough.
All parts/terrains of the game would be playable with an ocean faction,the game would seem alive at all surfaces and balanced
You could create lots of own stories with it in the map editor.And play the game on all possible
terrains.
Thats why it would add to the game,thats why this town would have a meaning.thats why it would add depth...
Well I voted yes to oceantown.Period

Mr.Dragon
10-03-2010, 04:09 PM
The Naga (Sanctuary) town is Not confirmed, just to let you know.
It currently is a popular theory, but not confirmed.

Also you're not addressing my point of insulating an argument with magic.
You're dodging it and then shifting the focus to Heroes V which currently out of the 5 games in the series has the most flexible gameplay within factions and still has ginormous maps available more then large enough to stuff to the brink with a larger diversity of map unique objects then Heroes III had to offer (not counting WoG).


As for your suggestion of having the sea and water play a bigger role, I doubt it, in effect it would more or less make the distinction between the sea and land less significant, removing an element of gameplay.
In effect, Sea would just be a different tile-set, like how Desert and Snow are different tile-sets, just that you need a boat to travel around it.
Currently the sea of Heroes requires unique gameplay features (boats) and has unique map objects and serves as a significant barrier between different areas of maps, water in Heroes is as relevant to a map as the map maker wants it to be.

So the sea is in essence a unique terrain because of the penalties it imposes on the factions, adding a town to it would remove this aspect in order to have the town function on par with other towns.


I personally am quite fond of Heroes V, it does some things significantly better then Heroes III and has the strongest most involved campaign, still not very good compared to several other strategy games I could mention.
Of course Heroes III also does some things better then Heroes V.


Also I think you need to read up on Heroes VI info that has been released because a several times now you've speculated on things that have been confirmed, you might want to check some of the more recent news.

Regardless, thanks for the invigorating speculation and your fierce optimism.
Whilst I do not agree with you I think you're doing an admirable job of trying to get your points across.

white_wizar1986
10-03-2010, 07:47 PM
It sounded rather odd,naga town?Almost unbelievable to me.
Would be surprised actually if they would do such a thing.
I mean whats next angel and goblin town..goblin chief,goblin on a wolf,Felpurkipur..
If that would be the case,i'd never buy Hmm6 cause i'm fed up by all those uninspiring humanoid units.
Lately they're taking more and more controle of the Homm series.
Most troubling..

I did mention i stated it a bit wrong about magic being the all solution..
But without magic it would just be heroes of might.
I ask myself,to what "rules" is the magic part bound?
Magic inheriting stone,creating powerfull gollems in the process?
Teleportation gates that can teleport one hero and its whole army to another side of the map?
Actually a big gap to fill up if i think about it,do people question its contrivance?
how can all units end up with all parts on the right spots on the right bodies?
I mean really if you think about it...Magic does fill some gaps were we could question ourselves.
If a hero would disappear from the map and appear on the other side just like that we would think what the hell just happend..
But if there is some fancy magical portal involving we don't question it further..
It's considered normal".I'm just imagining myself the right feel to an ocean town here,nothing more.
I'm imagining it with magical/mystical feel to it when it comes to the dynamics of the units
Just like the conflux had a very magic like feeling to it.(I for once loved this town too)

Like demons attuned to the fires of hell,they are attuned to the power and flows of the ocean.enfocing themselves with some minor tidal wave-controle,a sort of telekinetic lvl/affinitywith the flows.
Maybe translating it more as effects.Or how a nymph would be placing her gigi under censure...I'm just imagining thing here...

Meh heroes V was frustrating,never the right mapsize with the faction I felt like playing..For me,H3 is still the winner here.

Sea isnt a barrier,you can cross it whenever you like.
ok so you need a ship,but you also need to slay monsters to get further or reach some points on the map,so you could say the
game is full of barriers on the land..
While at sea there are none barriers.Its a terrain very empty in the game compared to others.
except for some flotsams and messagebottle and some shipwrecks and junk..
Adding a town to sea to function in par with others would finally make the sea as rich in content as the other land tile sets.
Naval exploration shouldn't feel like a penalty.It should be part of the game.

It still wouldn't change a thing to those terrestrial factions.They still need to cross.
So nothing significant is changing to the gameplay.Distinction is not created by accesibility but by diversity and unique atmosphere,..
The only thing that would be diffrent is that naval travel and combat gets richer/more fun...
I agree that a map maker could make sea less or more relevant.So he could have hours of fun playing with the map editor...

Is there another link with recenter details on Heroes6 next to the sticky Heroes 6 FAQ topic here?Or am i up to date after reading it?
cheers ww

Xenofex_086
10-04-2010, 01:06 AM
white_wizar1986, would it be possible to build some proper paragraphs when you are writing a post? This Skype/IRC sort of typing really makes it difficult to read your suggestions/arguments, poured most chaotically, and I myself can't be bothered any more.

Mr.Dragon
10-04-2010, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
It sounded rather odd,naga town?Almost unbelievable to me.
Would be surprised actually if they would do such a thing.
I mean whats next angel and goblin town..goblin chief,goblin on a wolf,Felpurkipur..
If that would be the case,i'd never buy Hmm6 cause i'm fed up by all those uninspiring humanoid units.
Lately they're taking more and more controle of the Homm series.
Most troubling..
Weither or not the Naga faction will be playable, it is part of the Ashan lore, so it seems likely we will bump into them eventually.
They sound unique and interesting though and have some really nice pieces of concept art.



I did mention i stated it a bit wrong about magic being the all solution..
But without magic it would just be heroes of might.
I ask myself,to what "rules" is the magic part bound?
Magic inheriting stone,creating powerfull gollems in the process?
Teleportation gates that can teleport one hero and its whole army to another side of the map?
Actually a big gap to fill up if i think about it,do people question its contrivance?
how can all units end up with all parts on the right spots on the right bodies?
I mean really if you think about it...Magic does fill some gaps were we could question ourselves.
If a hero would disappear from the map and appear on the other side just like that we would think what the hell just happend..
But if there is some fancy magical portal involving we don't question it further..
It's considered normal".I'm just imagining myself the right feel to an ocean town here,nothing more.
I'm imagining it with magical/mystical feel to it when it comes to the dynamics of the units
Just like the conflux had a very magic like feeling to it.(I for once loved this town too)

You're illustrating my case here, we already have a lot of elements like this, mind you, many have worked their way into shall we say "fantasy common sense", the point is that if we add many many more elements like that, it starts bogging it down, none of these are great solutions but as long as there are just a few great solutions it won't matter for the big picture, if we however start doing crazy stuff.... well for it's own sake, things start getting out of hand.



Like demons attuned to the fires of hell,they are attuned to the power and flows of the ocean.enfocing themselves with some minor tidal wave-controle,a sort of telekinetic lvl/affinitywith the flows.
Maybe translating it more as effects.Or how a nymph would be placing her gigi under censure...I'm just imagining thing here...

Demons in the series are capable of channeling infernal fire yes, but unlike an aquatic faction are not dependent on fire, they can just as easily survive in a forest (though the forst might not survive them), snow covered mountains, barren desert or noxious swamps.
Also I honestly have no idea what kind of mechanic you're suggesting here but it sounds like a unique gameplay element that exists solely to justify them being on lad, which is the definition of a contrivance.



Sea isnt a barrier,you can cross it whenever you like.
ok so you need a ship,but you also need to slay monsters to get further or reach some points on the map,so you could say the
game is full of barriers on the land..
While at sea there are none barriers.Its a terrain very empty in the game compared to others.
except for some flotsams and messagebottle and some shipwrecks and junk..
Adding a town to sea to function in par with others would finally make the sea as rich in content as the other land tile sets.
Naval exploration shouldn't feel like a penalty.It should be part of the game.

The sea is a barrier you can't cross whenever you like, you need a boat and a piece of unoccupied coast that allows you to board set boat.
So you either need a shipyard or the summon boat spell + the piece of coast.
Slaying a stack of monsters is usually much less of an issue unless the mapmaker is being a **** and puts stacks of 5000 black dragons down to stop you from ending the map in the first two years of gameplay.
Water objects are not as plentiful as terrestrial ones yes, but it's unique in that sense, oceans are VAST empty planes (from a terrestial standpoint.), it's part of their charm.
Again the map maker can make the sea as rich in content and objects and even obstacles as he wishes, but often the sea is designed to create a wide open space and barrier between areas of the map at the same time.
The sea has unique aesthetic and gameplay that would be lost if traveling it would become even easier, more commonplace and more cluttered.
Naval exploration only feels like a penalty when the map maker dots it with tiny islands with maybe 1 object on it, not worth spending 3 turns on. (which is actually a ship problem, not a sea problem and seriously needs to be adressed.)
It sounds as if what you are suggesting is putting WAY more stuff at sea, make it more accessible and make it well... un-sea like, people in the real world for example like gazing at the sea for it's massive horizon stretching vastness, serene qualities and unusual light environment.
The sea has a sense of "bigness" because it is much less densely cluttered and gives you a sense of freedom you don't get on land.





It still wouldn't change a thing to those terrestrial factions.They still need to cross.
So nothing significant is changing to the gameplay.Distinction is not created by accesibility but by diversity and unique atmosphere,..
The only thing that would be diffrent is that naval travel and combat gets richer/more fun...
I agree that a map maker could make sea less or more relevant.So he could have hours of fun playing with the map editor...

How does naval combat get richer if you're essentially levelling it down to the same as terrestrial combat with gameplay contrivancies?
They should change and add variants to the ship boarding battle arena, maybe even different ship types having different arenas and the field of battle depending on who boards who, that would make naval combat richer.
The changes you are suggesting remove the sea's diversity and atmosphere, they make the sea... un-sea-like.
Finally having the sea behave uniquely to one faction while still imposing the same penalties to other factions is a complete no-goer that requires ridiculous balance which will feel arbitrary and be nigh impossible to get right.



Is there another link with recenter details on Heroes6 next to the sticky Heroes 6 FAQ topic here?Or am i up to date after reading it?
cheers ww
Try this one:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=24719
It's a great source of info.

mcgslo
10-04-2010, 04:31 AM
I still dont see the problem. Sea/watter based casttle does not have to be directly on watter tiles. (watter tiles wasnt really usable and AI didnt know how to play on it)

We have undreground and caverns so terrain for such faction would simply be half watter and half dry land or land just few centimeters under watter so heroes (creatures) could walk on. Just imagine cavern but instead of blackness watter.

About creatures we already heard good ideas.

On anuther note... watter walk spell...

white_wizar1986
10-04-2010, 07:05 AM
Well they could also bypass the whole liquide/solide ground problem
by making an invading faction that has strong affinity with the ocean:Atlanteans.
Whatever they do,i hope they won't call it naga town. xD

I for once like to see something completly new.

I can understand why some are worried for something completely new.Some could cal it crazy stuff..
But i believe fantasy is the way of letting go of common sense,replacing it,and think out of certain lines.
Out of the ordinary,might and magic is fantasy,all made up.
The only ones having the solution to problems its creators,it depends on them whether it all gets out of hand or not.By their designs
Depending on how well they translate things into the game.
Magic wouldn't be used here to hide issues,it would be used to translate an ocean faction into the game.Just as portals translate why instant travelling is possible.
Or why a stone can become a mighty gollem..

I dont recall a biotope being an issue to any of the creatures in homm.demons in forest,snowy mountains,you name it.
They never even got that detailed with monsters and factions anyway.
Their biotopes/survival abilities never mattered in the first place in Homm..
What did matter was battle.Not vulnerability.
I don't see why the biotope/vulnerability should suddenly matter concerning an ocean faction.It never did in Homm..
Holy/unhole,infernal vs normale skins(not to mention human bodies are above 50 procent water),...
Its not all that micro managed in homm,not even as in the other series where your party could get affected by its surroundings.
fatigue,hungry,disease,incinerated,Unconscious,
drunk,...
So the questioning of vulnerability of an ocean faction is out of the question.Otherwise you could start asking questions about all factions.

You might need a coast or spell to board a boat,wich isnt accessible everywhere.true
But then again the underground had only few passages too,with often lots more
of "barriers" to overcome than a boat or spell.Making it even less "accessible."
Still the underground had towns devoted in Homm
Sea should be no diffrent as the underground.
Not just an empty plane.
The charms of the ocean can also be translated to the faction and its enviroment.
I doubt you will have a feeling of freedom at sea,for sure if a hungry shark gets involved.
You'll be helpless at sea..thats reality.
Gazing at massive horizons is the last thing you'd like to do in homm.
Sea seems like a peaceful place,but it's full of dangers.The empty feel being it's biggest deception.Danger is lurking everywhere at sea.
And that should be translated to the Homm as well...Instead of this boring dull emptyness we always got in previous editions.

The lurking dangers is what would make naval travel more exciting.I dont think it will level gamplay down.I believe it will finally be
exciting combat on all surfaces of the game with
this detailed naval combat.

It shouldn't be the sea behaving to the faction.
It should should be the faction adding to the sea experience.Accenting all the beauty and mystery of the sea combined with awesome naval gameplay experiences.

They could also go for a more Atlantean themed structure.
wich invades the land for world domination
Wich got sended by the seagod to take over the lands...diffrent approaches are indeed possible.

I found an interesting art concept reasonably close to an armorset I had in mind for the ocean faction.

armor (http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://www.autodestruct.com/images/atlanteans.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.autodestruct.com/concept.htm&usg=__KaYQZesQIqWOUbL-sziZvzqOXnw=&h=649&w=1080&sz=369&hl=nl&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=RBLW3s-SKyV3eM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=200&prev=/images%3Fq%3Datlanteans%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26biw%3 D1306%26bih%3D618%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=123&vpy=94&dur=1492&hovh=174&hovw=290&tx=142&ty=119&ei=F82pTPqEMomDswbWo8XJDA&oei=F82pTPqEMomDswbWo8XJDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0)

garthim (http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://www.henson.com/images/fantasy/darkcrystal/dc_char-garthim.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.henson.com/fantasy_darkcrystal.php%3Fcontent%3Dcharacters&usg=__QgQB2qW-dyMmJ9ZWnZutYM1MxJo=&h=194&w=144&sz=14&hl=nl&start=21&zoom=1&tbnid=fFKL39dwfstfNM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddark%2Bcrystal%2Bgarthim%26hl%3Dnl%26 sa%3DG%26biw%3D1306%26bih%3D618%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3D isch:10,513&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=616&ei=sLOpTNqSMZDQjAfXzPzJDA&oei=pLOpTPn5PIfMswa5sOS-DA&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:21&tx=40&ty=55&biw=1306&bih=618)

a pancered like crab creature I loved from the dark crystal.
And thanks for the link on H6 info

Mr.Dragon
10-04-2010, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
Well they could also bypass the whole liquide/solide ground problem
by making an invading faction that has strong affinity with the ocean:Atlanteans.
Whatever they do,i hope they won't call it naga town. xD


I for once like to see something completly new.


This "Naga Town" (if they make it) is called Sanctuary and other then maybe being ruled by Naga is a completely new town with oriental aspects to it.


Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
I can understand why some are worried for something completely new.Some could cal it crazy stuff..
But i believe fantasy is the way of letting go of common sense,replacing it,and think out of certain lines.
Out of the ordinary,might and magic is fantasy,all made up.
The only ones having the solution to problems its creators,it depends on them whether it all gets out of hand or not.By their designs
Depending on how well they translate things into the game.
Magic wouldn't be used here to hide issues,it would be used to translate an ocean faction into the game.Just as portals translate why instant travelling is possible.
Or why a stone can become a mighty gollem..

You're comparing it again to established magical tropes versus a magical contrivance used solely to hammer an otherwise unworkable concept into an compatible game.


Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
I dont recall a biotope being an issue to any of the creatures in homm.demons in forest,snowy mountains,you name it.
They never even got that detailed with monsters and factions anyway.
Their biotopes/survival abilities never mattered in the first place in Homm..
What did matter was battle.Not vulnerability.
I don't see why the biotope/vulnerability should suddenly matter concerning an ocean faction.It never did in Homm..
Holy/unhole,infernal vs normale skins(not to mention human bodies are above 50 procent water),...
Its not all that micro managed in homm,not even as in the other series where your party could get affected by its surroundings.
fatigue,hungry,disease,incinerated,Unconscious,
drunk,...
So the questioning of vulnerability of an ocean faction is out of the question.Otherwise you could start asking questions about all factions.
Because all other factions are terrestrial, breath air (or don't breath at all) and have perfect locomotion on land but none or limited on water without a boat.
So this doesn't apply to any other faction, none of them have this problem.
Why would it be a problem for demons to invade a haven town? or to walk on snow covered mountains?


Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
You might need a coast or spell to board a boat,wich isnt accessible everywhere.true
But then again the underground had only few passages too,with often lots more
of "barriers" to overcome than a boat or spell.Making it even less "accessible."
Still the underground had towns devoted in Homm
Sea should be no diffrent as the underground.
Not just an empty plane.
The charms of the ocean can also be translated to the faction and its enviroment.
I doubt you will have a feeling of freedom at sea,for sure if a hungry shark gets involved.
You'll be helpless at sea..thats reality.
Gazing at massive horizons is the last thing you'd like to do in homm.
Sea seems like a peaceful place,but it's full of dangers.The empty feel being it's biggest deception.Danger is lurking everywhere at sea.
And that should be translated to the Homm as well...Instead of this boring dull emptyness we always got in previous editions.

In all the previous heroes games were we had an underground, it behaves, gameplay wise IDENTICAL to above ground, even having the same or similar objects, it's access points are as plentiful or scarce as the map maker makes them so comparing it to naval access it moot.
The changes you are suggesting would make water identical to normal terrain, thus revoming a unique gameplay element.


Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
The lurking dangers is what would make naval travel more exciting.I dont think it will level gamplay down.I believe it will finally be
exciting combat on all surfaces of the game with
this detailed naval combat.

Sounds almost like random encounters *shudder* lets not do that.
But once again, making naval terrain feature all the stuff we have on land removes it's uniqueness.
Currently water serves as a obstacle or barrier overcome through the gameplay mechanic of a boat, it navigates differently then land because of it's open nature and free space which at the same time makes it more dangerous when you encounter an enemy vessel in certain gameplay situations where traveling back in a direct line allows you to be cut off.
The sea is different and only boring when badly used by the map maker.


Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
It shouldn't be the sea behaving to the faction.
It should should be the faction adding to the sea experience.Accenting all the beauty and mystery of the sea combined with awesome naval gameplay experiences.

These awesome naval gameplay experiences are already in the game just not as common, fighting on a boat is rare I'll admit but unique.
They could add more types of boats and change the battlefield based on who boards who, weather and possibly terrain (coastal, reef, open sea).
Also add more different sea objects.
Even if we wanted the sea to be a more crucial part of the game, it doesn't require a faction out at sea.
And if the sea doesn't adjust to a faction being there that faction needs weird balancing that would render it terrible.


Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
They could also go for a more Atlantean themed structure.
wich invades the land for world domination
Wich got sended by the seagod to take over the lands...diffrent approaches are indeed possible.

I found an interesting art concept reasonably close to an armorset I had in mind for the ocean faction.

armor (http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://www.autodestruct.com/images/atlanteans.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.autodestruct.com/concept.htm&usg=__KaYQZesQIqWOUbL-sziZvzqOXnw=&h=649&w=1080&sz=369&hl=nl&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=RBLW3s-SKyV3eM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=200&prev=/images%3Fq%3Datlanteans%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26biw%3 D1306%26bih%3D618%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=123&vpy=94&dur=1492&hovh=174&hovw=290&tx=142&ty=119&ei=F82pTPqEMomDswbWo8XJDA&oei=F82pTPqEMomDswbWo8XJDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0)

garthim (http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://www.henson.com/images/fantasy/darkcrystal/dc_char-garthim.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.henson.com/fantasy_darkcrystal.php%3Fcontent%3Dcharacters&usg=__QgQB2qW-dyMmJ9ZWnZutYM1MxJo=&h=194&w=144&sz=14&hl=nl&start=21&zoom=1&tbnid=fFKL39dwfstfNM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddark%2Bcrystal%2Bgarthim%26hl%3Dnl%26 sa%3DG%26biw%3D1306%26bih%3D618%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3D isch:10,513&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=616&ei=sLOpTNqSMZDQjAfXzPzJDA&oei=pLOpTPn5PIfMswa5sOS-DA&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:21&tx=40&ty=55&biw=1306&bih=618)

a pancered like crab creature I loved from the dark crystal.

Define Atlantean, because every other fantasy or sci-fi handles the concept of Atlantis different, heck quite a number of them do not even connect it to the sea other then it having sunk.
Also we're discussing mechanics here.
I mean, it could easily feature great artwork, wonderful creatures, a story but it needs to fit into the game side of things.


Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
And thanks for the link on H6 info
You're welcome and excuse me if I sound rude anywhere in the above post.

I think I'll leave it at this because it is driving me a bit nuts and as I said 3 posts ago, neither of us will convince the other.
Cheers anyway.




Originally posted by mcgslo:
I still dont see the problem. Sea/watter based casttle does not have to be directly on watter tiles. (watter tiles wasnt really usable and AI didnt know how to play on it)

We have undreground and caverns so terrain for such faction would simply be half watter and half dry land or land just few centimeters under watter so heroes (creatures) could walk on. Just imagine cavern but instead of blackness watter.


That sounds an aweful lot like a Swamp Town, doesn't it? partially submerged.
A flooded cavern likewise isn't the aquatic people are aiming for but does make it a workable concept, so long as it's dwellers are inherently more adept at terrestial combat and don't have cities un-accessible by land.



Edit: That basically sums up my thoughts on the water town actually.
It can be a town with strong ties to the element of water, but it should not be a submerged/out in the ocean town.
It should be accessible by land and feature fully amphibious creatures.

white_wizar1986
10-04-2010, 02:51 PM
Unworking concept?For the people who disliking an Ocean faction maybe.I believe an ocean faction would be compatible and i could think of several ways interaction could be fluent and feel right.With no doubt they could fit it in the game aside the brilliant myths and possible stories

Few examples to make ocean town accessible by land:

-It could be done by waterbreathing/waterwalk(a spell),this would mean they would be
adding some extra motion effects,ok maybe developers would get a headach..
But it would show they actually care.

-They could make the ocean faction semi-Ice(for the part where there is land normally
at other towns)with water holes and water,where there is water in other towns for a possible dock"..if not a gaint turtle or something triton chariot like..A seawitch could appear more as an ice queen like soreceress with shells in her crown and stuff,illustrated in previous post.

-Or like in kings bounty,the attack on ocean town takes place in an item.
that would be the emerging town from the sea itself in this case.If you enter combat screen your boat has rammed a hole in the gaint shell,
And it would be more like a fight in a gigantic decorated hall with huge pillars and lots
of ocean themed beauty.3 triton gaurds will be raying powerful beams with their tridents
at you each turn to substitute the shooting towers a castle normally has.

Again,I don't see why the biotope/vulnerability should suddenly matter concerning an ocean faction.It never did in Homm..
Holy/unhole,infernal vs normale skins(not to mention human bodies are above 50 procent water),...why would I make a problem out of undeath invading heaven town?because i dont like undeath?Because of the stories told they would be burned to ashes unholy/holywise..(wish you're making a point for the oceanfaction)
Oceanic faction could have perfect motion on land.I think they could make the units appear deadly and fierce very easily infact.
Ofcourse there COULD be some extra minor tidal controle effectsI found a picture,it may seem a bit old,but to illustrate.We don't neccesarily have to go amphibious.
Nauticans (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B3a40VqkvVtRMWYyNjI0ZTAtYjA4ZS00NTYwL WFmODMtYzhkNWE5MzZlM2Rj&hl=en)

(the possible minor tidal wave controle effect i meant is visible on the trident and the seawitch)

Nauticans they are called,created by warhammerhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
There is hope..I suggest you read their background story on page 4 in the ebook I linked.quite interesting indeed when talking about possible stories related to an ocean faction.

There are also lots of ways to make the naval gameplay experiece richer.
"Barriere-wise" I said the underground is as difficult to acces as the sea.
If not even harder to acces in some cases...
I didn't say sea should be identical to other terrain.
I ment sea should be just as rich..not identical..It should be more like an open boardgame or like minesweeper.
Not random encounters,but things like the whirlpool,more diffrent kind of objects
Mystery objects,you dont know if they are good ar bad...Naval could work with wind directions even,plenty of ways i could think of
to differentiate sea travels from the others...

Mr.Dragon
10-04-2010, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
Unworking concept?For the people who disliking an Ocean faction maybe.
No trust me I like the idea of an ocean faction, but it on a practical level just won't work with the series.



I believe an ocean faction would be compatible and i could think of several ways interaction could be fluent and feel right.With no doubt they could fit it in the game aside the brilliant myths and possible stories
Myths and stories are not in question here, I'm talking MECHANICS.



Few examples to make ocean town accessible by land:

-It could be done by waterbreathing/waterwalk(a spell),this would mean they would be
adding some extra motion effects,ok maybe developers would get a headach..
But it would show they actually care.
We have a summon boat spell, but having to either buy a boat or summon one means that just to get to the town it is either going to drain my heroes resources (mana) or my resources I'd spend on units/structures (gold and lumber).
So basically, the out at sea option imposes a tax on players to reach it, this is unbalanced.



-They could make the ocean faction semi-Ice(for the part where there is land normally
at other towns)with water holes and water,where there is water in other towns for a possible dock"..if not a gaint turtle or something triton chariot like..A seawitch could appear more as an ice queen like soreceress with shells in her crown and stuff,illustrated in previous post.

Pretty cool yeah but then link the faction to a more coastal frosty realm, have them strongly based around water as an element, a crucial part of their culture but not their all-encompasing.
Their towns could be domes of frozen crystal and ice filled with pools both shallow and deep and wonderous structures.
But based on land, so they are reachable by the other factions without imposing a tax of mana, resources and movement for boarding a ship.



-Or like in kings bounty,the attack on ocean town takes place in an item.
that would be the emerging town from the sea itself in this case.If you enter combat screen your boat has rammed a hole in the gaint shell,
And it would be more like a fight in a gigantic decorated hall with huge pillars and lots
of ocean themed beauty.3 triton gaurds will be raying powerful beams with their tridents
at you each turn to substitute the shooting towers a castle normally has.

Great game, great concept, however it doesn't work that way for Heroes, King's Bounty isn't multiplayer and doesn't have the town management, just your hero and his troops.
Whilst combat is the same, the games are widely different.



Again,I don't see why the biotope/vulnerability should suddenly matter concerning an ocean faction.It never did in Homm.

Because none of the factions were strongly linked to their terrain, their terrain was just that, the place they lived, not part of their very identity.



Holy/unhole,infernal vs normale skins(not to mention human bodies are above 50 procent water),...why would I make a problem out of undeath invading heaven town?because i dont like undeath?Because of the stories told they would be burned to ashes unholy/holywise..(wish you're making a point for the oceanfaction)

Again, this part doesn't make sense.
So you're saying Undead and Demons shouldn't be allowed to attack Haven Towns because they are unholy?
Since when does being unholy mean you burn to a crisp from attacking a city that represents everything you want to destroy?
This isn't the case for ANY fantasy setting as it would render the bad guys impotent and thus worthless.



Oceanic faction could have perfect motion on land.I think they could make the units appear deadly and fierce very easily infact.
Ofcourse there COULD be some extra minor tidal controle effectsI found a picture,it may seem a bit old,but to illustrate.We don't neccesarily have to go amphibious.
Nauticans (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B3a40VqkvVtRMWYyNjI0ZTAtYjA4ZS00NTYwL WFmODMtYzhkNWE5MzZlM2Rj&hl=en)

The very definition of being amphibious is being able to function both on land and in water, so what you're saying here is self defeating, you cannot be aquatic and function on land, aquatic creatures that function on land are called amphibious creatures (not to be confused with amphibiANS which are a group of animals such as toads and newts that happen to all be amphibiOUS).
Just like a Hovercraft is an amphibious vehicle because it can function on land and in the water, while a boat is an aquatic or naval vessel because it can only function in water.



(the possible minor tidal wave controle effect i meant is visible on the trident and the seawitch)

Controlling the tides doesn't mean you can suddenly wander about on land, you'd have to flood it if you're aquatic or be amphibious.




Nauticans they are called,created by warhammerhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
There is hope..I suggest you read their background story on page 4 in the ebook I linked.quite interesting indeed when talking about possible stories related to an ocean faction.

Warhammer however doesn't deal with the mechanics of town management either, it is a purely battle based miniature game (I should know I played it in tournaments in england, School League, regional champion infact, played a Chaos Warband of Tzeentch, great fun.)



There are also lots of ways to make the naval gameplay experiece richer.

Agreed, they could add more objects, but they shouldn't change it's open nature, that would make it, not a sea.



"Barriere-wise" I said the underground is as difficult to acces as the sea.
If not even harder to acces in some cases.

I'd say no, you can reach the underground by walking there, you don't need to spend mana to summon a boat, spend resources to buy one, have a shipyard available to begin with or a piece of coast where you can board/unboard.
All you need is a teleporter or a tunnel entrance.



I didn't say sea should be identical to other terrain.
I ment sea should be just as rich..not identical..It should be more like an open boardgame or like minesweeper.

But it should stay open, they can add more different objects to it, all for that, but keep it's open nature, seas and oceans are by their nature wide open spaces.



Not random encounters,but things like the whirlpool,more diffrent kind of objects
Mystery objects,you dont know if they are good ar bad.
And that is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about, that is the exact same thing as a random encounter from a design standpoint, it could be monsters, it could be resources lost, it could be resources gained, friendly creatures.
In Heroes III we had something for this: Pandora's box, but that was one object.



..Naval could work with wind directions even,plenty of ways i could think of
to differentiate sea travels from the others...
Wind could be a cool mechanic yeah, a very good one in fact.
But the point is, all these changes to make it a more unique enviroment then it already is would make it mechanically even less suitable to house a faction.
Unless you go the opposite way and make it more like land, which we both agree is a bad thing.



So here's my angle to make it workable.

The town is on land, like any other, but the town itself is a shallow, to deep pool of water with various wonderous structures on it.
The people that live there, whilst inherently a water based species, breathes air like the everybody else. (similar to many species of crab, yes there are crab species that drown when they spend to long in water, or for another analogy, similar to whales and dolphins that also need to breathe air.)
They use various predatory swimming creatures (that have full locomotion on land) like for example.

-Serpents that just slither around on land as easily as they swims in water.
-Karkinos (Giant Crab), it scuttles about and attacks people with it's powerful pincers.
-Naiads (sea nymphs) that use their magic to bolster their forces, being an inherently magical creature .
-Mermaids that actually carry themselves on a magical collumn of water that they summon and control.
-The native race, lets be original shall we... uhm, cephalic people, so squilike, they slither forth on strong rubbery tentacles and wear ornamental shell armor.
-Sahuagin, a real fish race, they wear golden masks with crystal vials of water attatched through which they breath.
-Sea witch, could be almost any kind of creature but it uses magic to fly and attacks with torrents of water and/or ice.

However the ruling caste of this town are still air breathers, those squid people and they build towns on lakes and by coasts because they require water, culturally and physically, they might need to lay their eggs in water. (quite common for example terrestrial crab species.)

That's my angle on it.
No weird travel tax, no strange changes to how one faction works in contrast to all the others on a base mechanical level, and still capturing all the flavour, and lets face it, that's what this whole argument is about, about how to get the flavour to work with the mechanics.

white_wizar1986
10-05-2010, 10:09 AM
Then we both agree that an oceanfaction would be possible,just discussing its mechanics.

Well the waterbreathing/walk option I proposed won't be likely cause they have to invent whole new game dynamics,and would somewhat be a difficul road for the developers.

You forget that every action you take in the game drains your resources somehow.
You lose alot more than the resources of a boat if you lose a champion unit like a titan in combat,to ignore the fact that losing a whole army or losing a mine drains alot more..There is a "tax" to pay for every action you take in Homm.Anything you do,To set out,you need an army,for an army you need the resources,to gain the wisdome of a tree you need to sacrifice some resources,...
To reach any faction and conquer it there is to pay you could say,and there is always a win and a loss to anything you do.
so i disagree even buying a ship to reach an ocean faction would be unbalancing,if not with waterwalk or waterbreathing.
And anyhow the mana spend on summon boat spell would be restored the next turn.
so there wouldnt even be a true loss there.
The accesibility of the ocean,well you can't acces the underground everywhere on the map either.
Most of the time there is a powerfull unit in front of the gate to the underground.
Fighting it makes some of yout units die,so draining resources just as much or even more(depending on how much army you lose) as buying that ship,you have to payup for the units lost sooner or later.

Their towns could be domes of frozen crystal and ice filled with pools both shallow and deep and wonderous structures.You read my mind.
This way the castle could be seen as some kind of faction destined to conquer the world.
I don't want to give developers a headach,I just find it a pitty that most people mark this concept as impossible
cause they never seen it in homm.
while there are all diffrent kind of approaches and possibilities introducing such faction in homm,not neccesarily bounding it entirely to the sea..
But providing the perfect balance between their amphibious ways and giving a surplus value to naval experiences.
Ofcourse that would take balancing,but I believe this is possible.
Motion-wise too,I was confused with amphibians http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Not just lizardmen or murlocs i meant.
But they could have amphibious ways,sure.kinda like you're angle lineup,close to how i had it in mind it could be like.The only diffrence is that I like to see them adding more flavour to naval combat too

Maybe wind direction+sailing skill+pandora box like thing could make a fun boardgame http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
I'll muze upon it further perhaps if i have the time..
It would be unlikely oceanfaction would use boats on the other hands.but balancing is all about ying and yang

When talking about battle taking place inside an item"
I was just talking about how the battlescreen would be when attacking ocean faction at sea.
the attack taking place inside the emerging ocean castle.
You rammed a hole in the castlewall and find yourself at the same similare arrangement scheme as any other faction has.
exept its set on a big staircase/big hall with gaint pillars,lots of beauty,and 3 tritongaurds instead of archers in a tower.
What has multiplayer and town management to do with how the mechanics could work for the faction's battlescreen?It wouldn't seem a strange way of letting this faction work at sea to me.Just a diffrent battlescreen as another town assault.

GoranXII
10-05-2010, 10:53 AM
Yes, it's possible, but see, it's not arguing over the mechanics, it's arguing over whether or not it's worthwhile (I'm temped to think it's not), or even whether it should be attempted (Mr.Dragon makes some good arguments for keeping the water town-free).

Mr.Dragon
10-05-2010, 11:29 AM
I'm not saying nothing else in the game comes at a cost, I'm saying sea travel comes at an additional cost that other forms of locomotion don't have.
Also consider that unless you have knowledge equal to or greater then the cost of the summon boat spell, it won't come back in one turn, and you might need that mana before reaching the shore in battle, preventing your from summoning a boat, or immediately after, leaving you unable to cast more spells.
The gold and/or lumber cost of just traveling the terrain will often rob you of creature or structure purposes unless you're in late game and swimming in the loot.

It's an ADDITIONAL drain on resources, important ones at that.

More or less what GoranXII said above by the way.
It could all theoretically be done, but the cost/reward factor I'd say does not stack favorably.
Having studied game design briefly (for about a year as a course) in addition to mapping and modding since I was a little boy (Warcraft II being my first if I recall correctly), I think I have a gained some insight into just the massive amount of work that goes into making games.

The staggering amount of development time, budget and manpower it would suck up just probably (in my opinion) is not worth it.
As much as I would like an ocean town, as much as I think it is a cool idea, I don't think it is a viable one.

white_wizar1986
10-05-2010, 06:31 PM
Just like external dwelling creatures comes at additional costs.Just like learning a skill at the university,or building a ballista/healing tent would cost additionally.
The cost may not come back in one turn but how big is the chance that would put you in a hopeless position?
Aside from plenty wood and gold,there are even artifacts to be found at sea..
Enough compensations for the small prize of a ship i'd say..

Exploring is a very important thing in homm,and at land you have 2 kinds of exploration:scouting and aggressive expansion.
While at sea we only have this scouting part,but after all is discovered,sea is just empty and dull in previous homms,like a big gap we have to get over to go to other land.
If Ocean town would be introduced,the aggressive expansion part would be finally introduced to all parts of the game
Think of all the interaction and possibility if alliances pacts and trade comes looking as in H3
(infact they should bring that part back and improve it alot,they could even introduce pirate bases to negotiate with http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)
Giving the hero who lost all towns other possible destinations:sea.
Giving sea a unique gameplaytwist that makes Homm overall richer and diverser in content,more epic on each aspect of the game than ever before.So much variety and strategy that the wires and sensation in our brains shall explode,instead of tickled a bit with reasonable
land combat.If they make Homm strong on every aspect it will make the rediscovering of the Hommworld more than a pleasure.
Ocean faction is more than worth it all.
But thats my opinion

Mr.Dragon
10-06-2010, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
Just like external dwelling creatures comes at additional costs.Just like learning a skill at the university,or building a ballista/healing tent would cost additionally.
The cost may not come back in one turn but how big is the chance that would put you in a hopeless position?
Aside from plenty wood and gold,there are even artifacts to be found at sea..
Enough compensations for the small prize of a ship i'd say..
The small price of a ship has for a while now been 2000 gold and I think it was 10 lumber?
That's a day's worth of income of a non-capitol town.
And all the examples you mentioned above provide you a direct benefit in combat to use against your enemy, building a ship would then be an additional cost ON TOP OF THAT to TRAVEL, not fight.
Then don't say a neutral stack you'd meet underway on land is a cost to travel because beating that also gives you another benefit: EXP, Neutral stacks are worth attacking even if they aren't blocking your path, simply to advance your hero.
Finally, yes, it might put you in a hopeless position, especially if your enemy uses the same 2000 gold you spent on a boat to reach him, on extra units/structures or other combat benefits.



Exploring is a very important thing in homm,and at land you have 2 kinds of exploration:scouting and aggressive expansion.
While at sea we only have this scouting part.
Uhm... no, there can be monster stacks at sea, or attackable objects, or enemy heroes, the sea might need to be tarveled to fulfil your aggresive expansion, thus making it part of it.



but after all is discovered,sea is just empty and dull in previous homms,like a big gap we have to get over to go to other land.
If Ocean town would be introduced,the aggressive expansion part would be finally introduced to all parts of the game.

Once again: all up to the mapper.
Adding a single tileset to battle LOTS on wouldn't make the game more dynamic if we already fought on that tileset before, and we do fight at sea.


Think of all the interaction and possibility if alliances pacts and trade comes looking as in H3

Nothing to do per-say with sea, we can also trade over land, provided you cleared the path, trading over sea would be an excellent reason to keep the sea more open.


(infact they should bring that part back and improve it alot,they could even introduce pirate bases to negotiate with http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)

Yes an no, Trading is good, pirate bases to negotiate with? not so much, presuming they have ships sailing around that might randomly come my way and attack me.
RANDOM ENCOUTER, whoopie!


Giving the hero who lost all towns other possible destinations:sea.

So he can wait out his turns at sea while he loses the game because he's not taking back a town?


Giving sea a unique gameplaytwist that makes Homm overall richer and diverser in content,more epic on each aspect of the game than ever before.So much variety and strategy that the wires and sensation in our brains shall explode,instead of tickled a bit with reasonable
land combat.

Interesting illustration but not grounded on reasonable facts, you're now just building hype without a reason to be hyped, especially seeing as you've failed to illustrate how this all would enrich sea combat, seeing as sea combat is identical to land combat in raw mechanics, it's unique aspect is the boat related arena would could be expanded upon with more boats to fight on.
Something they could do to sea travel is wind direction, this however would be a random factor and thus could potentially royally screw you over.



If they make Homm strong on every aspect it will make the rediscovering of the Hommworld more than a pleasure.
Ocean faction is more than worth it all.
But thats my opinion
You've now illustrated how you don't like the "boringness" of the sea, not why an ocean faction would be worth it.
Adding an ocean faction to the sea would mean the sea has to be adjusted to be just like every land enviroment, to house a faction, making it more boring, not less.
Other then this last bit you haven't mentioned an ocean faction or anything related to it AT ALL.


However, it is your opinion, so no matter how much I may try to best you, keep fighting the battle!
Unless you don't want to.
I'm still not sure why the hell I keep trying to.

mcgslo
10-06-2010, 01:52 AM
Are you guys now suggesting to introduce beside water faction pirate faction? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So far we always created random maps without water since AI is/was stupid and cant use water well. (in H3 was a bit better)

Dont stop battling couse its long way to release and we need to be occupied somehow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

To sum up: there are now 2 concepts.
One to make water faction/s like dry land more like swamp like terrain or islands terrain with shalow water so on advanture map this terrain acts just like other factions terrain.

And second that water faction/s are accessible only by ship. So there would also be mines on watter tiles for crystal and some kind wood/ore mines or floteing woods or sth. to compensate for other factions. Specially when someone takes over castle and converts them...they would want the resources that town is linked to. And then how would be external dwealings work? or keeps that are linked to other resources or possibly to other visitable objects. Can we put dragon utopia on water (if there is still DU in H6)? or crypts etc. If we use special water visitable places than water faction/s could have disadvantage or advantage.
And with random map generator can other faction start on water?

So bottom line i am all up for new factions and I like water based faction or pirate based faction :P but on existing concept with dry land advanture map terrain. (in this case "swamp like" which I mentioned with first concept)

What creatures could pirate faction use? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (I am not really for pirate faction)

white_wizar1986
10-06-2010, 06:48 AM
Honnestly,did you ever lost a game by paying a cartographer additional to unveal land,ocean,or underground?While a ship does have (and should have) direct benefits in combat too;taking a fight to a different kinda level.
Because they didn't quite succeed at this in previous homms you now my friend have the feeling it is only benefital (for "travel") purposes,to cross the ocean to a diffrent part of land(for example as part of a strategy for aggressive progression)
but without the sea as alternative way of living,with a unique tough of gameplay elements.
As it is now in Homm sea is only about scouting/crossing for the hero(a barrier).But it is no alternative way of playing it/continuing the game at sea(aggressive expansion part/destination-wise)

Having towns at sea doesn't neccesarily mean you'll have to adjust sea to land O_o it means there will be diffrent options/roads progressing the game further to.
Still with 2 diffrent gameplay feels to land and sea.
Besides,you also get exp for every fighting at sea,at shipwrecks in H3 you get 5000g(more than worth a ship) or -1morale if empty..
Not to mention flotsam,schipwreck survivors,seachests and other structures at sea giving more resources n exp than what a fleet could cost you..

Adding an ocean town and pirate bases to bribe,trade or fight,alliance with...
perhaps pirate bases could use external creature dwellings with the new system.
A hero finally has an extra possibility to turn a page when lost all towns at land and go naval.
Taking a diffrent road for planning his comeback/a diffrent way to survive when losing al towns..
btw i think losing one week after being without town is absolutely ridiculous,where is the sense for adventure?
Adventure please,homm should be full of adventure..
Instead the hero could be like "fine,let them have this crappy land,i'll teach them a lesson of humiliation at sea later"
This is why ocean factions would enrich the game.Well sea combat,I'll leave that part to the developers.
The more important fact is that ocean factions would enrich gameplay with new approaches,more variation,alternative ways of progressing...
Even if a a mapmaker decides how much sea there is,he can create tons more stories with it than just the land stuff.
Enjoying the game much much longer.and IF there is a big sea on the map,it doesnt feel like a gap..
We already discussed their amphebious ways and structures so they would be able to be on land as well.Making them a valid option to play on every part of the game.While also enriching gameplay at sea.

An ocean faction and smaller groups of pirates bases etc are all about giving a hero a call at sea as well,a destination,a purpose.
As there will be unique/diffrent gameplay elements if you compare sea to land there will be a bigger variety ingame,diffrent approaches
A hero will be able to trade,alliance,fight pirates and ocean faction..
For instance if he lays a pact with pirates he wont lose,gets a share if pirates win from scouting enemy heroes.
But the hero must hand in a procent of all his findings as well,also when capturing mines at sea/land..
However because of this pact he won't lose a game.(so a hero can expand his existance at land and sea because of those factions)
Navigation/pathfinding wise i think that those skills shouldnt be bought in one turn,but be defined by the hero experiencing naval and land..
He can go a step further and go for an ocean faction for sea domination or try to take an "abandoned" town at land for his comeback..
Can't you see its not about land domination here(and not about making the sea the same as land)but about the ability of globale domination.
Aggressive expansion both at sea and land (not just land as destination)
This is why ocean faction would be worth it.
Well if you try to change my opinion its a lost battle indeed,cause this is what I believe factions at sea would really do.
Enriching the gameplay/adventure part on all possible terrains,even the one being a big gap in the previous homm experience.

GoranXII
10-06-2010, 07:17 AM
We'll agree to disagree then, because there's no way you'll ever convince me or Mr.Dragon that the slight (and it will only be slight) enrichment to gasmeplay will ever be worth the inordinate extra development cost that a sea-based faction will bring.

Mr.Dragon
10-06-2010, 07:43 AM
Can't be bothered to quote.
And I really am starting to lose my temper now, which is neither your fault nor your problem, just please that in mind, this is all my problem for being bothered by it.



I can 9/10 times reach an enemy town before ever finding the cartographer.

We agree on the fact that ship-based combat could use more variability.

No the sea isn't just about scouting or crossing there are all kinds of objects out at sea, you in fact talk about them later on yet here you dismiss them.
Contradicting yourself.

Having a town at sea does mean you have to adjust sea to land.
And now this is important, refer to MCGSLO's EXCELLENT post right above here.
He brings to light some serious issues it would cause.
For example, scenario (a): I conquer the water town, now I want to convert it to my native faction (Inferno) does that mean I sudden;y have a fire spouting castle in the middle of the ocean?
Badass as it would be, my poor demon heroes I hire there are suddenly stuck and have to pay 2000 gold and lumber JUST TO LEAVE THE CASTLE!
Or wait around for my main hero who already has a boat to come and pick them up LIKE THEY HAVE TO WAIT FOR A BLOODY TRAIN! (presuming you could even get 2 heroes on a boat, which would be a nice feature and could create an interesting dynamic in naval combat.)

Next scenario (b): I generate a random map, it contains no water, I play the ocean faction and suddenly all the careful balancing systems put in place to make me function out at sea bugger off because I'm on land and am now either grossly overpowered or grossly underpowered.

Scenario (c): I generate a random map, it contains water, a town on water in fact, worse still, that is my starting location and I'm Necropolis.
Refer to scenario (a) but now I'm like that from THE START OF THE GAME!

Ocean town to the side for a moment because everything you're talking about past this point doesn't concern them.

You've got beef with the 7 turns without a town thing, NOT THE SEA.
How is going to the sea to plot your revenge different to going to say.. the great big forest that also has a large quantity of map objects and resources and (hypothetically speaking if the sea were to get a town) also possibly has a town there?
It's like saying: go plot your revenge, you can choose, either spend 2000 gold and 10 lumber of your now finite resources and limited income and hope to earn that back, or go into the forest, lava place, desert, jungle, mountains and not have to pay a nickle but get the exact same viability and options.
This again has NOTHING to do with an ocean faction per say, it has everything to do with the 7 turns without a town system, why do I say that? because even if you add an ocean town to the sea, you'd still need to capture that or any other town within those 7 days, just the other towns might just need you to require a battle instead of an entry fee + require you to maybe fight a battle.

How is adding a faction an alternate way of progressing?
It still is the same core gameplay that drives the series, Take your hero, go here, beat stuff up, capture towns and manage them, just one now is native to a different tileset.

You keep saying there are benefits and colouring with pretty words yet failing to elaborate constructively how this enriches gameplay.
Adding features =/= enriching gameplay.
Adding features has the potential to enrich gameplay provided these new features synergize with the rest of the game in a positive manner without replicating existing mechanics.
A town at sea would stagnate not enrich because it would mean the sea would have to accommodate a town!
Having a town function differently to be fitting on the sea doesn't work because that town has to function the same on land and if another town is out at sea has to function the same as that town.
UNLESS the sea faction can be the only town at sea and nowhere else and other factions cannot have towns at sea but only on land, which would remove the ability to have random towns on random enviroments, covert towns, the RMG (ask ANYBODY on this board, RMG vs extra town, everybody will pick RMG.) and heroes being able to freely leave/enter their towns.

Ok, so destination and purpose.
What is the destination and purpose of going to the sea currently?
Exploration, aquiring resources through alternate means, finding different, other map objects, reaching different areas of land you otherwise couldn't.
Seems like there is good reason and justification to go to the sea already, though once again, THIS IS DEPENDANT ON THE MAP MAKER, NOT BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE SEA.

Pirates prevent you from dying without a town then? or am I reading that wrong?
So now you've got an AI that wanders around the sea attacking people and you get some of their loot?
That's stagnation, you should be doing that yourself, you're actually suggesting we should have a group of NPCs do stuff we can do ourselves, we can do better, we can do and get direct enjoyment out of.
Next suggestion is taking a sea town for "sea domination", what's preventing the guy that took my castle from me from buying a boat, and using his mighty army to crush me at sea?
Unless the sea town has some kind of bizzare "sea domination" mechanic which would render it imbalanced, Inferno do not have some kind of "lava domination" mechanic other then maybe moving a little faster on their native terrain out of combat (which is something).
Global domination? it's about wiping out your enemy on the map (usually unless there is a specific victory objective.) and in many maps, sea travel is part of that already.
Aggresive expansion both on sea and on land... we already do that, if there is sea on a Heroes III map or a Heroes V map and it contains stuff I need, or leads me to the land I need to go, then I go to sea and expand, conquer and destroy anything in my way, both on land and on the sea.

This entire post had failed to add any reasons for a sea town, and instead trails off into things related to the sea but are either already there or introduce negative elements to the game (such as having pirates do stuff you should be doing yourself, if I want to have the computer play the game for me I'll run a Diablo Bot.)


If it sounds as if I am repeating myself, it's because I am, because you are.
And by now we're completely off topic.

To summerize.

Sea gameplay in Heroes currently has unique elements due to it's very open nature, they could expand upon them slightly in the form of more map objects for the sea and more boats that have effects on naval combat, but beyond that we both have failed to add anything viable.

The sea town does not enrich sea gameplay but does the opposite UNLESS you don't want the game to be balanced and/or feature town conversion and/or the ability to choose town on maps without fixed towns and/or the RMG.

It just has to many problems, note that some problems CAN be resolved but just would end up giving us way more hassle then it's worth for 1 town.
My favorite town is Inferno, and if I had to sacrifice Inferno for the sake of the game, to keep it functioning, balanced and with all the great features such as the RMG, I would gladly do it, the sake of 1 town should not be enough to break the game.

Before you accuse me of being afraid of change, they are changing an immense amount of things for Heroes VI and I think most of them are brilliant, there are many more places where the game could grow, the game has to evolve, I don't want them to re-release Heroes III with shiny graphics, I want a newer, better game.
Not an unbalanced mess.



Right, rage over, sorry about that, I really am getting tired of repeating myself.
Once more: this is not your fault, this is my problem for letting it get to me.
And I also think some of your ideas are getting lost in translation.
I have the feeling you're quite an intelligent person, as well as optimistic and passionate but that maybe I'm just not getting the complete story either because of mine, or your own English.

Edit: looking back a few hours later, I'm really getting to heated and will now withdraw from this argument before I get this thread locked.

white_wizar1986
10-07-2010, 10:51 AM
I understand the landscenes are burned in your minds and therefor you like to stay "between those thinkinglines".I would be surprised if that wouldn't be the case..
As long as I can speak my mind in the small hope at least one H6 developer would hear some of our calls..Your long monsterpost(forgive me if I forgot to handle some of your things)
surely rises questions beside answers,like will there be terraforming/transforming to faction environments/conversion?Knowing that controling a fort means controling the environment/mines...
Would a town behold its full glory or be degrading to a fort when converting?
Not much is know about town conversion,wich is then very clever to bring it up concerning ocean faction..Something I can't know much about at this point and only guess for possible suggestions in slightly good english.
Very easy for you lot to disagree and spit" upon.But I ain't bothered,I shall continue with the small hope anything we post here or in the wishlist will be heared/cared about elsewhere..

All that is known to me is that converting a faction would destroy all the special unique buildings of that conquered faction.
Yet the basics of the faction still being there.Townscreen-wise I have no clue how this all would be done,certainly not if its some kind of slow process.
What I do know is that factions in heroes VI will have strenghts,weaknesses and racial abilities.
You picture it all very terrestrial,even at sea.(try to put those thoughts aside)

Try to picture land and sea gameplay as a venn diagram
The land part the one you always bring up(the gameplay you've always known in homm)
The sea as a slightly diffrence (and open for suggestions/new elements)
The center for any interaction between both where land/sea meets and clashes..
like the skeletal mechanics of a pocket watch moving together at different levels,yet all bound together

There is indeed the scouting part already at sea,all kind of objects too.
But they could add a diffrent adventure feel to sea.Bring it up more..
By giving the factions a call at sea,more versatile gameplay.

concerning scenario A
It would be kinda ridiculous having an ocean faction building tons of ships,I agree on that.
Mobility at sea should be one of the "basic plus" when talking about a conquered seafaction.
Why the hell use a boat if you could make use of their basic ways,even at conversion.
You're senario is bound to land principles too much still.I mean the seafaction would have alternatives.
why use a ship if you could use the basic of the seafaction to improve naval domination for "free"

Who says conversion at land should have the same outcome as on sea?
If the necropolis town could be at sea like on land you would make the sea gameplay indeed with more of the same land gameplay crap..
Instead conversion would be translated slightly diffrent at seagamplay than at landgameplay.
Converting a seafaction acts as an expansion of the winning faction's racial ability and an extra procent of creature boost.
Examples for all know factions till now:
-Inferno would gain seadevils that can open a summonportal,demonic circle in a radius of where they converted ocean town.
acting like a harmless whirlpool/summongate,better mobility than ships,...
-Necropolis would gain access to a legion of the damned ghostship,disguising enemy's explored seaparts with fog,converting pirates to ghouls
similar to pirates of the caribbean.Working like a mobile skeleton transformer.
-Castle would gain acess to a big white sea deity that would increase morale of any troops it would transport for a week.
and make them immune to any disease effects..
Just to give you lot an idea,the conversion could take a diffrent turn at sea gameplay.
Not yet sure if this would be a sea-like way of conversion OR a mobile town translated in a diffrent gameplay..

Concerning scenario B
If we take back our venn diagram and go from the sea gameplay past the interactioncenter to the landgameplay,
the balance system will automatically adapt to its location.
A necropolis would take another form of domination at seagameplay,as possible examples mentioned above.
The two gameplays can never mix,only in the center;combat and termination.
When they go cross the center,they switch gameplay style..
so at sea,necropolis will have diffrent kind of domination,taking their racial abilities to next level somehow.
wich answers scenario C
You could start with necropolis at sea but you would be a legion of the damned ghostship looking for bases of pirates,eskimo's,squid people,or whatever there is..
to transform to skeletons,perhaps conquer an ocean faction,perhaps just enjoy growing an experienced pirate like hero,or switch to land system.

There could also be an advanced specifier at the beginning of the game,(so you can chose where to start etc)aside from the simple starting bonuses we had in previous games.

Mr.Dragon
10-07-2010, 12:31 PM
And now you're just trying to portray me, and anybody else who disagrees with the sea faction as close minded, uncreative and "land bound" shall we say.

Your first few paragraphs use a lot of nice metaphors but none of them have justifications.

Finally you're at a basic level suggesting they build a separate alternate version of HoMM out at sea.

It's sounding more and more like you're not even interested in a sea faction per say but in changing sea gameplay.
Especially now that you're suggestion every faction changes out at sea.

I sincerely also hope they read through this, to have a look into the widely differing opinions of a fanbase, to study the possible strengths and weaknesses of a sea faction, and that sea based gameplay could use some expansion.

But I'm going to stop and leave it at that before I end up getting this thread locked.
I think we're both now way off-topic.

Regardless of how much I may disagree with you, thank you for voicing your thoughts and opinions and having kept this argument civil.
I'd say you've been more of a gentleman then myself, especially now that I have openly accused you in my first paragraph.

Ygds11
10-07-2010, 09:28 PM
Geez this whole thread is like one big deja vu for me. Except last time (during the H5 discussion era) all the ocean town advocates were the same dude logging in under different pseudonyms. Got kicked off by the mods as I recall. This just seems a little futile does it not?
What they (developers) do is what they will do.

If your intention is to develop a mod that will incorporate another faction into this release, then this discussion would be much more productive as I am almost certain any large scale changes to the core game at this point would not occur. Artwork and animation may still be in the works but in order to release in Q1 of next year the devs are not going to take too many more suggestions from any of us. From what I just saw they already consulted with fans of the franchise on some sort of exclusive super secret covert forum.

So us bottom feeders that argue about these sort of things are already out of the loop the way I see it and are now merely munching away at our own imaginations trying to develop game mechanics and mythos contributions that have come all too late to ears that are deaf to all but the most dedicated of posters and mods.

Don't get me wrong however, I can see that the developers do listen to fans, I just believe that they listen MORE to some fans than others. you can go ahead and design all the justifications you want for your favorite faction being included but it's likely-hood is not only zero at this point but null.

When I say null I mean like Zermello-Frankel set theory null. The null set where you can get whatever you from it but because the propositions are unrelated to the sequent are completely meaningless. In other words suggestions at this time are after the fact of the suggestions already considered and therefore derived only from the null set of suggestions and are therefore only following the rules of "or intro" or assumption. Assumption would however lead to circular logical explosion as the law of implication would be nearly unusable given no current knowledge give any "if" statement therefore there is no way to derive a "then" statement. None of this could be done anyway because the current situations introduces a highly derived law of consequent exclusion where the consequent (H6) is already finalized as a result of metaphysical completion and time restriction. There is no way to add anymore information to the sequent because the recursive function of the consequent is time limited where the number of meaningful operations is reduced to a number that will not allow for the modifications of incorporations heretofore suggested or affirmed by the previous contributors. Whew!

have a nice day

Mr.Dragon
10-07-2010, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Ygds11:
Geez this whole thread *snip*

You could have made this shorter and even though you're right.
This conversation might still contribute in some form or another for an expansion or sequel release, however unlikely.
(Just for reference, I'm the on the against-sea-faction-out-at-sea team.)

white_wizar1986
10-08-2010, 10:16 AM
I'll only be portraying someone at class ;p
It doesnt mean you're close minded,more likely you are scared of changes to homm.
All long for a visual stronger remake of one of the previous homm,yet I love the way H6 developers seem to try to bring some clever innovations to homm
(they should also do this to the sea part)
My suggestion above indeed seems as an alternate version of Homm at sea.
Giving factions a modified appearance and strategy when going naval.
whether it would be town conversion at diffrent level on sea(other conversion-effects than on land)
or some kind of faction related "mothership" feeding the racial abilities and stuff
I could muze upon that,working it out more in detail.

But like Ygds11 says working out the idea may seem rather pointless
cause they are past the phase of development.

The developers alter Homm VI big deal resource and town(conversion)-wise for strategic purposes.
When talking about the possibility of a seafaction I therefor find it important to talk about those innovations as well.Trying to picture the whole picture not just the town.So not really going off topic.
And maybe(hopefully)they will bring innovation to sea,look at this 11 last seconds of this
teaser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqqD1kXk1kc&feature=related)
Just maybe xD

Xenofex_086
10-08-2010, 11:20 AM
It doesnt mean you're close minded,more likely you are scared of changes to homm.
All long for a visual stronger remake of one of the previous homm,yet I love the way H6 developers seem to try to bring some clever innovations to homm
(they should also do this to the sea part)
My suggestion above indeed seems as an alternate version of Homm at sea.
Giving factions a modified appearance and strategy when going naval.
You get it all wrong (and contradict yourself on top of that) - this has nothing to do with whether you're open minded or conservative when it comes to implementing new ideas as such. It's all about whether this implementation is possible in the first place. And it isn't, because it means that a great deal of additional work needs to be done - conceptually to make a sea faction look adequate on dry land (I don't mean their appearance, but their goals outside the sea - as I mentioned this equals finding a purpose for a terrestrial faction to invade the ocean's bottom) and mechanically to fit this thing in a game, which has always been based on 95% land warfare. In short - it's about the concept of realism.

white_wizar1986
10-08-2010, 12:16 PM
Who are you,or I,or anyone to say what is and isn't possible in this game?When you're just muzing upon ideas and thinking about alternatives,you might contradict yourself as you're not bound to one idea/possibility only.
Just try to give some suggestions
as Mr.dragon mentioned the oceanicfaction could translate themselfs as domes of frozen crystal and ice filled with pools both shallow and deep and wonderous structures.
I also kinda liked his lineup on previous page.
So if something requires additional work=impossible to you?
You know i actually would be very happy if they delayed the release to even make it better.I have patience as long as they make it top nosh...

I know they have already set a releasedate/unveil-town-date and such.So the chance it won't be included at release is big(yet i liked what i saw in my teaser previous post xD)..

goals outside the sea for seafaction could for example be;
-an ancient relic that some faction/marines stole long ago,making them very hostile.
-The nature of that faction being "evil" wanting to destroy all others
-The deep becoming uninhabitable because tectonic plates parted under the chaotic pressure.
Submarine quakes and demons invading through the parted plates.
So they had no choice but to find themselfs other homes,their survival depending on it..

The sea gameplay/mod part of my venn diagramm won't be deepsea for any faction

Xenofex_086
10-08-2010, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
Who are you,or I,or anyone to say what is and isn't possible in this game?When you're just muzing upon ideas and thinking about alternatives,you might contradict yourself as you're not bound to one idea/possibility only.
as Mr.dragon mentioned the oceanicfaction could translate themselfs as domes of frozen crystal and ice filled with pools both shallow and deep and wonderous structures.
I also kinda liked his lineup on previous page.
So if something requires additional work=impossible to you?

I know they have already set a releasedate/unveil-town-date and such.So the chance it won't be included at release is big(yet i liked what i saw i my teaser previous post xD)..

goals outside the sea could for example
-an ancient relic that some faction/marines stole long ago,making them very hostile.
-The nature of that faction being "evil" wanting to destroy all others
-The deep becoming uninhabitable because tectonic plates parted under the chaotic pressure.
Submarine quakes and demons invading through the parted plates.
So they had no choice but to find themselfs other homes,their survival depending on it..
Apart from the fact that I have some experience regarding a game creation (not much, but enough to differentiate the idea of a game world from the materialized idea of a game world - something which the casual player usually doesn't bother thinking over), I think it's a matter of simple understanding of how the things work. And don't misquote me please, I never said that more work = impossible. Read it as grossly impractical, unimplementable at the current stage of development, unrealisable potential or whatever will suit understanding of "it won't happen because it's too late". Surely you can comprehend that you can't modify the chassis of a plane to create a tank just because suddenly you decided that it will be nice to have something that makes the ground shake and produces a nice thunderous sound.
A possible implementation of a sea faction thus is possible after a very serious modification of the game mechanics, which will essentially make the game quite different from what it is. Thus - I'd try to convince Ubi to include this sea faction in HoMM VII at the earliest if I were you.
As for your possible explanations - sorry, they are all lame. The first one is trivial and daft motivation, the second is horrendously trivial and doesn't explain at all what they'll do outside their natural habitat and the third one means that the ocean faction will simply die, because it can't go on a dry land permanently without evolving to something which is no longer something made of sea creatures (and demons on the bottom of the sea with Sheogh being a plane of fire... well... no comment).

Mr.Dragon
10-08-2010, 01:50 PM
Thanks Xeno for picking up the battle where I withdrew.
Also: Not close-minded but scared of change?
Practically the same thing in this case, utterly bizarre as I've been saying how the game NEEDS to change and evolve for a while now (just in ways that make sense, not convoluted ways for otherwise minor additions) and finally, no less insulting.

In a side note, about the last 11 seconds of the "teaser" or Gameplay video.
Note the stylistic markings of the beast? Those are Fu-Markings, like you see on oriental statues of dogs, lions and dragons.
A strong hint in favour of the Sanctuary or Naga Faction, as they according to the artwork we've seen, have strong oriental accents.

white_wizar1986
10-08-2010, 03:26 PM
Well maybe i'm not a great storyteller and stuff.history in games can go back or further in time with millenia..Submarine quakes and demons invading through the parted plates could have happend way way back..The ocean faction could have evoluted in amphibious ways(present time ingame) making them mobile at land and sea..
(And i'm not going to argue on the story,placing my suggestions in a "correct" context of something i dont know much about.
I tried H5 but got bored quite fast by it..Instead i returned to H3 with great disappointment..)
Lets hear your possible gamestory then connected to an atlantean/oceanfaction,I'm bored xD

"They would die" well thats an easy alternative....not very entertaining though..
Almost sounds as "Men are terrible and will hurt you because this is lifetime..THE MUSICAL"
Or as "the necromancers will burn before your very eyes at dawn".. -_-

I could suggest/work out an idea of the ways of conversion at sea for each faction(like necropolis-ghosthip of the legion of the damned)and the roll of the new Atlantean like town in it(land/sea)
And how the gameplay could work at sea.
Most diehard fans want no innovation,they just want the same crap they had 10 years ago,blind to innovations by their own desires..
(I wonder how many are already furious by the idea of few resources in H6)
But if you lot think of this as some kind of "femministic battle" to keep going for the last word,and perhaps try to get off topic,it's a very wrong attitude..
Instead we could get constructive/suggestional instead of just transversal on suggestions concerning oceantown
Else just accept the damn disagreement between us and let it be as it is..
I must say i would change the name of this topic from undersea faction to seafaction at least to say..
And love asian,maybe even the sanctuary would be to my likings,though there is a danger they get too cartoonish/kitschy with oriental themes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mr.Dragon
10-08-2010, 04:55 PM
You really seem to now have us as "Old-school HoMM fanboys afraid of change".

I have now, on a dozen forums proclaimed the need for the game to evolve, to grow and to get rid off all the stupid stuff it's predecessors had.
HoMMIII, while a great game, has not aged well at all, and after recently buying it again off Good Old Games (lost my disc a few years back) I started playing it again, quite frankly, it was a heck of a crapload worse then I remembered it, by modern standards anyway.
I always thought HoMMV and HoMMIII were close, now I'm starting to shift to the opinion HoMMV was leagues ahead of it's predecessors with it's many radical changes to gameplay, the majority of which GREATLY improved it.
Perks.
Faction specific skills.
Alternate upgrades.
All units have unique special abilities, or combination of them.
Every faction has a unique playstyle.
Less skills which did more, some old skills rolled into perks.
Much greater variety of artifact effects.
Voice acting, cutscenes, vibrant 3d maps.
Non-broken hero participation in combat without JUST spellcasting through regular attacks and unique skills.
Square grid for the 3d creatures.
Many new map objects.
Unique hero specializations, every hero is different (except for the few that have simple creature boosts which isn't that bad to begin with.)
4 Skill/perk options per level instead of 2.
The initiative system. (some say this is a failure though)


HoMMVI is continuing this trend with bold, some might say dangerous changes to gameplay, prominent ones being:
Streamlining resources.
Creating a more balanced 3 tiered creature system instead of the teetering 7 tiered one.
Going for fewer factions with greater diversity and better balance. (my guess why they are doing only 5 instead of 6.)
Hero customization and full level-up control.
Many many many many more great changes.

I love change, just not changing things without justification, or weak justification.
In my opinion, a sea faction is just insufficient justification for the time, resources and convoluted alterations to gameplay that in my opinion, will not benefit the series as a whole.

There are still many things I hope they change.
Such as making the naval experience more potent (without cluttering up the sea) with more dynamic arenas (more different boats for example) coastal battles, sea-borne bosses, more sea objects.

Or changes to the Haven faction, less humans, more beasts, or emphasis on the supernatural.
No more 3 to 6 units of the same species in a faction line up. (Elves, elves, dwarves, orcs)

I'm not going to list everything that has changed, needs changing or will change.
The point is, change, often but not always, is good, and most of us (I think I can safely say) accept that, accusing us of fearing change without knowing our stance on the staggering amounts of changes the series has gone through since 5 games, is a little quick to jump the gun.

Maybe we (I know I speak for a few people, not many, but a few), just out of reasonable ideas and train of thought, arrived at our conclusion, that the sea faction, in our opinion, is just not a PRACTICAL IDEA, not for now at least.


Back on topic for one last time:
I stand by my decision, even though it seems highly unlikely, I would like to see the Fortress from HoMMIII make a new, next gen, with unique mechanics and flavour, appearance.
Sanctuary seems to be a step in that direction, and even though it is not the Fortress from HoMMIII that I loved (for it's unique atmosphere) I think I will greatly enjoy a Sanctuary faction, if it truly is part of the line-up. (IF)

white_wizar1986
10-09-2010, 05:12 AM
For a succefull new Homm it is indeed very important to sort
out the good elements of the game and try to make them even better
I didn't play homm 3 very long either after the dissapointment of H5.
Because it seemed indeed not meeting the modern standards with the same old stuff:nothing new.

The good gameplay elements from its predecessors+innovation+new stuff
Is what the game needs in order to become just as addictive as its predecessors again.
The streamlined resources,balanced 3tiered creature system,town conversion.
are neccesary in order to improve the gameplay.though some might seem dangerous to fans...

You have no idea how difficult it actually is to introduce new stuff just by a concept.
Just try to sell your own game idea to a company for example,you'll notice how difficult it is.
Let stand a new idea for an already excisting game to a fancommunity with fair english..
Many will say its to dangerous and judge the book by its cover.thats what i mean by afraid of change.
None of the new stuff gets accepted before justifying by playing it,not the streamlined resources,nor an ocean faction.
Therefor I don't blame you or anyone who disagrees on an ocean faction.
And nothing I can do about it or say to change your mind unless I am the homm developteam who justifies it and puts it in an expansion to introduce this concept.
So the Ocean faction can be experienced.

I think the lesser factions in H6 is more from a business perspective.
Because of a close deadline,they can balance it easier with a tier 3 system,bring more diversity to factions,in a rather short time.
I do believe however they will release a few expansions with each time one new faction.(i hope,would be dissapointment otherwise)
A good expansion= a whole new fresh addition to the game.
Perhaps its safer introducing oceanfaction concept with an expansion,at least it would sate your worried minds by the idea of something
completly new xD

An Ocean faction giving a surplus value to naval combat would in my eyes be more than awsome-sauce to homm.
It would not alternate the gameplay on land,but add an alternative way of playing sea/land,it would benefit homm as a whole.
A whole new bundle of new/fresh experiences.Wich a serie going this long needs crucially:
New stuff..
I illustrated it with venn diagram a while back.
one part being land on part bein sea and the centre the interaction in both ways.
So it wouldn't alternate the gameplay current in homm(thats the land part as we know it now),it would add a whole alternate gameplay/mod.
(the current gameplay is just a circle with a semi interaction part)
Taking homm to a diffrent level,therefore benefiting the serie as a whole.

Taking the innovation part of townconversion and racial weakness/strenght/abilities to a diffrent level and game experience.
Sea conversion changing each faction in a diffrent ways and ocean faction being the natives.
Land faction would gain a diffrent type of conversion.
I'm all for a fortress too,but i think an ocean town(not deepsea) could bring more new elements with it, and potentially make homm richer.

Mr.Dragon
10-09-2010, 05:54 AM
Your Venn Diagram was entirely subjective as there are no facts to base them on.

Also, of course it's introduce a thing by concept, the point here is however, we like the concept, but we do not like the practical implications, from a completely sensible and coherent, long, deliberate and careful line of thought, examining it from different angles.

Many of us have arrived at this conclusion, not based of the "cover of the book" but by it's contents and implications.

Now the last argument I can think of that you might pull out is:
We don't know till we play with it.
This is an inherently flawed argument to begin with, if we can only critique something when we've already payed for the product then we've failed as a consumer.
You have to be able to judge something, on as much data as possible, as you can gather, BEFORE committing your money to it.
So if I have to judge something, based on thinking about it long and hard, heck debating it here with you for AGES, looking at it from all angles.
I can safely say, I'm against it.
It's just not practical!

white_wizar1986
10-09-2010, 09:40 AM
The venn diagram is based on the fact that there is land and sea,interaction between it in homm.
What you're saying now is like saying:"I have examined the cover of this book from a completely sensible and coherent,long,
deliberate and careful line of thought,examining it from different angles..and came to the conclusion its not worth reading it."
Or it's not worth writing those ideas down.
(saying suggestions are based on nothing,flawed and lame and stuff is very easy,but thinking of some alternatives is another case)

You can't base or form any conclusions on "content".What content is there to form conclusions upon?Or to say whether ocean faction is practical or not.

Thats what I call being subjective and rather shallow,you can read as many stuff as you want
on gamespy or IGN before deciding whether its worth or not buying a game.
(you actually might disagree with the guys from those sites,but never knowing it)
You will only know by playing the game,cause all opinions about the game
you can possibly find on the internet are subjective,unless you experience it yourself,
You don't know what you are missing or should not have bought in the first place.
So you can't come to any conclusions,just have an opinion:you disliking this idea.
Or do you consult piratebay in order to "fail not as consumer"? ;p

Anyway,how would faction conversion translate itself at sea?
Will only the basics of ocean faction remain then in the advantage of the owner's mobility/resource gathering at sea?
Will it become more of a base where you have to decide the spot to gather the riches from?if the base is near/the bases could be really slow.
Like a mobile boss-like faction unit/town responding to the racial abilities?like a mobile skeleton transforming ghostship for the necromancers mentioned above.
A seadevil for the Inferno that can open summon portals near bases.
A hippogriffon for castle heroes that increases morale and poison/disease effect immunity
A kraken for the goblin/dungeon/barbaric town feeding its racials..,...

A suggestion for the gameplay:
If a faction converts a base at sea it needs to expand itself by looking for riches of the sea(special hotspots to hold controle over)
In order to upgrade the converted faction unit/town at sea.
By sending gathererunits to it or perhaps a slow mobile faction moving itself..
If another faction captures a base the hotspots might reset or the converted faction need to send out new gatherunits asap.
Every faction at sea has something special;like for example the ghostship has cover of darkness,the seadevil eye of chaos to slow normal ships down,...
All faction units have advantages/disadvantages..weaknesses and strenghts.
Faster units in between(normale ships) suppose to capture the converted faction/or destroy it.
Or normal ships can capture a remaining seafaction and keep it in order to track the converted bases faster down or something..
The advantage of keeping the ocean faction without conversion is the very fast mobility at sea/unveiling the whole seapart at the map perhaps.
Well how the racial abilities/faction conversion would work together needs to be balanced through a whole proposale about sea gameplay i suppose.
But there would be the economic part of trad/hotspots..

The amphibious ways of the oceanics will allow them to go on land to participate in world domination
I kind of liked your view about it Mr.dragon:
Domes of frozen crystal and ice filled with pools both shallow and deep and wonderous structures.
-Serpents that just slither around on land as easily as they swims in water.
-Karkinos (Giant Crab), it scuttles about and attacks people with it's powerful pincers.
-Naiads (sea nymphs) that use their magic to bolster their forces, being an inherently magical creature .
-Mermaids that actually carry themselves on a magical collumn of water that they summon and control.
-The native race, lets be original shall we... uhm, cephalic people, so squilike, they slither forth on strong rubbery tentacles and wear ornamental shell armor
-Sea witch, could be almost any kind of creature but it uses magic to fly and attacks with torrents of water and/or ice.

They can convert a town at land just as easily.Perhaps discover a way to put other units in a lightning charged vortex
with what they discover at the land magic schools factions,for example
So if you go land- sea or sea-land there is always something to discover..
Only suggesting here,to make that very clear

to illustrate my seagameplay suggestion somewhat.I found this picture about
spore (http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wiinintendo.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/spore.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.weeklygaming.co.cc/2010/03/spore.html&usg=__BjkZ-7eNPV0lEgAJY2R9gTC5IMc=&h=319&w=440&sz=35&hl=nl&start=98&zoom=1&tbnid=_k5vwVZk7Ror8M:&tbnh=136&tbnw=187&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dspore%2Bspace%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26bi w%3D1306%26bih%3D618%26tbs%3Disch:10,2875&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=362&ei=mZGwTK2JGtSRjAefnYyBAQ&oei=dIOwTImXLMuAswag8YyYDQ&esq=7&page=7&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:98&tx=88&ty=48&biw=1306&bih=618)
the worlds/balls representing convertional spots and other things like tribes and pirates,..The galaxies represent hotspots that need to be conquered to progress at sea and the spaceships represent the fast ships from normale land gameplay as well as the native fast oceanic faction units.just an attempt to illustrate not want homm to be anything as spore xD also,picture the situation a bit less concentrated as on the illustration

Mr.Dragon
10-09-2010, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by white_wizar1986:

What you're saying now is like saying:"I have examined the cover of this book from a completely sensible and coherent,long,
deliberate and careful line of thought,examining it from different angles..and came to the conclusion its not worth reading it."


Dude, we've been dabating about this for ages, I didn't just look at the idea and decide it's crap, I decided it's impractical for an innumerable amount of reasons.


Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
Or it's not worth writing those ideas down.
(saying suggestions are based on nothing,flawed and lame and stuff is very easy,but thinking of some alternatives is another case)

I have produced alternatives, you seem to have forgotten we actually both agreed on and came up with several good ideas, I even said you had quite a number of good ideas.
Mind you we have very different ways of thinking so I guess many of it just is incompatible.



Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
You can't base or form any conclusions on "content".What content is there to form conclusions upon?Or to say whether ocean faction is practical or not.

A long list of reasons produced by this argument, and not just by me but by several board members.
We have looked at the implications, we have looked at ways to include it, some (including me) just are of the opinion it's not going to be easily achievable for a while.
Possibly HoMMVII depending on if they make certain changes to core gameplay then.




Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
Thats what I call being subjective and rather shallow,you can read as many stuff as you want
on gamespy or IGN before deciding whether its worth or not buying a game.
(you actually might disagree with the guys from those sites,but never knowing it)

I form a subjective opinion based on data, review/preview articles and fansites with the latest and most detailed info.
I use objective observations and other people's opinions to base my purchasing choice, so far it's paying off.
I often disagree with reviewers, including my favorite reviewer, Zero Punctuation of Escapist magazine, whilst I agree with him often, there are plenty of games he hates that I love, such as Zelda games, I infact bought Darksiders because he hated it for copying Zelda so much.
True, it does, but I love Zelda and Darksiders is decent, could be better, but it's not bad.



Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
You will only know by playing the game,cause all opinions about the game
you can possibly find on the internet are subjective,unless you experience it yourself.

So you're saying I have to buy every game to have a reason to not buy it, basically.
I'm not allowed to dislike something until I own it.


Originally posted by white_wizar1986:
You don't know what you are missing or should not have bought in the first place.
So you can't come to any conclusions,just have an opinion:you disliking this idea.
Or do you consult piratebay in order to "fail not as consumer"? ;p

I've got a pretty damn good idea of what I'm missing after discussing it for several hours of typing with you about it and spending even more time thinking about it, and the accusing me of being a thief isn't exactly a way to make your case a strong one.

Worst thing about this post:
Proving me wrong about you.
A few posts ago I said that you were being a considerably more reasonable and gentlemanly person then me because you did not openly insult me in any way or form whilst I at least had hinted at the fact that you'd been repeating yourself or that you were using charming metaphors without justifying them as a "smoke screen" shall we say.
I admitted you occupied the moral high ground, and then you decided to jump off it.


We have both embarrassed ourselves quite enough and made it abundantly clear that we will not see eye-to-eye on this.

exmahinator
06-09-2011, 12:05 PM
And where is it possible to give the idea with a new city? If able before long to master Photoshop or can simply draw creatures - would throw down.