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Jagdklinger
12-28-2004, 08:30 PM
As Santa brought me FB:AEP I have had my interest in USAAF planes revitalised. After playing nothing but various P38s, P47s and P51s for the last few days,I must say I am seriously unimpresssed by them. Perhaps more specifically, their choice of armament.

Firing those 50 cals is like piddling into the wind: it only feels good when you stop. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Admittedly I am an all of two weeks 'expert'and unabashed Luftwaffe fan, but really, the USAAF planes seriously lack punch. I seem to see a lot of people saying how great the P47s'8 50s (or did you say .22 cal?) are, but after an afternoon trialling them against everything from biplanes to bombers, I beg to differ.

Yes, my gunnery is excerable http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but after replaying all the tracks (as part of my 'deflection shooting self-improvement program'), and watching over two dozen strikes on the engine and wing root of a He111 with no apparent effect - or pouring dozens of shots into a 109 without even a HINT of the dreaded radiator/engine damage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I find it painful viewing. For example, I put about six bursts into a 109 from 150-250 yards, when with a Luftwaffe fighter, the first one would have sent it spiralling out of control, missing significant airframe parts (such as a wing... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
No wonder HMGs have so much ammo - they need it all to down a single plane...

Basically, I seem to need 3 passes to have the same effect as a single LW attack; and US planes are simply not 3x better. OK, the P51 IS a nice flyer, but if it can't actually down planes, what's the point?... The P38 with its concentrated cone of fire (and CANNON, did I say it has CANNON? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif ) seems the pick of the bunch, but like the P47, is basically a high-horsepower brick with wings, as it can be outrun (and even out-maneouvred) by even the 190, which can pack 6 cannon as well as those redundant HMGs. Two 'cool looking' engines? Tough construction? A nice way of saying a plane has nothing else going for it.... It's like putting a shark's mouth on an obsolescent design (yes, P40, I'm talking about you...)

And a 30mm Mk108 shell doesn't care....

Now I remember why I never play BoB games....

<braces himself for severe flaming...> http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Jagdklinger
12-28-2004, 08:30 PM
As Santa brought me FB:AEP I have had my interest in USAAF planes revitalised. After playing nothing but various P38s, P47s and P51s for the last few days,I must say I am seriously unimpresssed by them. Perhaps more specifically, their choice of armament.

Firing those 50 cals is like piddling into the wind: it only feels good when you stop. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Admittedly I am an all of two weeks 'expert'and unabashed Luftwaffe fan, but really, the USAAF planes seriously lack punch. I seem to see a lot of people saying how great the P47s'8 50s (or did you say .22 cal?) are, but after an afternoon trialling them against everything from biplanes to bombers, I beg to differ.

Yes, my gunnery is excerable http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but after replaying all the tracks (as part of my 'deflection shooting self-improvement program'), and watching over two dozen strikes on the engine and wing root of a He111 with no apparent effect - or pouring dozens of shots into a 109 without even a HINT of the dreaded radiator/engine damage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I find it painful viewing. For example, I put about six bursts into a 109 from 150-250 yards, when with a Luftwaffe fighter, the first one would have sent it spiralling out of control, missing significant airframe parts (such as a wing... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
No wonder HMGs have so much ammo - they need it all to down a single plane...

Basically, I seem to need 3 passes to have the same effect as a single LW attack; and US planes are simply not 3x better. OK, the P51 IS a nice flyer, but if it can't actually down planes, what's the point?... The P38 with its concentrated cone of fire (and CANNON, did I say it has CANNON? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif ) seems the pick of the bunch, but like the P47, is basically a high-horsepower brick with wings, as it can be outrun (and even out-maneouvred) by even the 190, which can pack 6 cannon as well as those redundant HMGs. Two 'cool looking' engines? Tough construction? A nice way of saying a plane has nothing else going for it.... It's like putting a shark's mouth on an obsolescent design (yes, P40, I'm talking about you...)

And a 30mm Mk108 shell doesn't care....

Now I remember why I never play BoB games....

&lt;braces himself for severe flaming...&gt; http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

BlakJakOfSpades
12-28-2004, 09:10 PM
What i've found is the more bullets you put into the target, the more damage it does. The sky is uber tho...can't win no matter how many bullets you put in it. You can lay out some serious fire with all those guns, make sure you're close and they're hitting.

J_Weaver
12-28-2004, 09:14 PM
Personally I disagree. I fing the .50s pretty good. Whats your gun convergance set on? That can make a difference with those .50 cals. Also try this if you havn't already: instead of firing at your target from his 6 try firing from his 5 or 7. I've found that a good burst along the side of the fuselage from the cockpit foward will bring down most any aircraft quickly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p.s. You don't have to brace yourself because of me. I may disagree with people but I never flame. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

corvette93
12-28-2004, 09:17 PM
Being a dedicated LW flyer, I can attest from experience that all of the USAAF planes are quite capable of destroying any LW craft flying.

WTE_Dukayn
12-28-2004, 09:25 PM
I **** my pants when I see red tracer coming past my cockpit.

FatBoyHK
12-28-2004, 09:40 PM
there are several prespective on this issue.

First, online and offline seem to be very different.... offline 0.50 is much better than online 0.50. In offline campaign I can set everything even a bomber on fire with a short burst. Online, I need 4 passes to kill a BF-110.... even 100 hits are not enough to bring down a HE-111 (which is already injured before I engage, that is insane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif)

Second, as others suggested the angle of hits is very important. Hits from dead 6 is next to useless, unless you are lucky to get his elevator. a 5 oclock or 7 oclock shot is much more effective.

Third, although there will not be any instant firework, a short burst is usually what you need to kick someone back home.... His plane will be so sick that there is no point for him to fight on anymore... You may not notice that, just because you are not on the receiving end. And you will got your point when they land.... So, if you care about points, you got it.... or if you enjoy the process more than the "end-result", damaging someone and force him to disengage may be already good for you, it is just not as "stunting" as you can have, let say, on a 190. The spectular explodion may lead you to the conclusion that LW weapon is better, but indeed the 0.50 cal is the same, if not better (in term of ease of use) in elminiating threat from enemy fighter... even in its *weakened* online effectiveness

BlakJakOfSpades
12-28-2004, 09:46 PM
fatboy, 333 posts, thats gotta b worth something

FatBoyHK
12-28-2004, 10:04 PM
That is what I experienced and learned after one month of online flying. Since I am indeed a rookie, I may not understand the whole picture as clearly as those old-hands here do. But anyway I give my report honestly, no wild-guessing, no imagination http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Weather_Man
12-28-2004, 10:20 PM
At some point in the patch process (can't remember when) the .50's punch was increased considerably. Have you patched to the latest version?

Also, you're right. The .50 cal is like throwing rice compared to the 30mm cannon. But, I've grown to prefer the straight-flying, high ROF brownings after years of lobbing cannon fire from a 109. It just seems more satifying to get a kill by pecking him to death.

Snow_Wolf_
12-28-2004, 10:22 PM
it all about practice hey i just got a question u speak cantonese right

knightflyte
12-28-2004, 10:27 PM
Would that make you a ******? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I couldn't help myself

regards,
Robert

Once you go Track... you never go back.

FatBoyHK
12-28-2004, 10:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snow_Wolf_:
it all about practice hey i just got a question u speak cantonese right <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I speak cantonese, I live in Hong Kong.

I think you are actually asking Jagdklinger, but anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tsisqua
12-28-2004, 11:26 PM
Jadklinger,

You, Sir, are an artist . . .

and this is going to be beautiful!


Yes, I have been pecking my kill to death for quite some time, now. My favorite ****** is my beloved P-38, although, not exclusively. I reallized as a child that I loved the sight of this twin-tailed-pteror. I recently watched the documentary about the raising of the "Glacier Girl" again, and to see that long forgotten cannon still able to nearly obliterate a 55 gallon barrel . . . Mmmmmm. But still, that was not a partially armored Luftwaffe machine.

The P-38L can dive, losing altitude, and gaining airspeed at an incredible rate. I mention the L model specifically, because it, unlike its J counterpart (although, the J is perfectly able to attain the same acceleration), is equipped with dive brakes. The obvious result is that it is very possible to get the extension needed for another pass. I come at the enemy as head-on as he will allow me. A smart pilot will try to trick me into a turn, but if he has managed to avoid me widely enough, I will use my recovered altitude, combined with full WEP, (For us Lightning drivers, that means 110% full power, not the same as the WEP boost on LW planes), and lowered prop pitch to extend once again until I can make another pass. (I am a very patient man.) If the enemy pilot decides to approach me full headon, I give as much rudder as I can, still leveling the wings with aileron. I can actually steer away from the direct approach, while still having my nose aimed at the enemy. Apart from the obvious shot that I have here, I also have managed to misdirect the enemy's fire by having my bird yaw in this fashion.

If taken into the vertical, the P-38 can hang on its props like a monkey to a tree. Dive brakes applied at the top of a "stall loop" will spin you around and back down on an enemy so fast that it can be quite surprising. I nailed a Zero this way online once, and have been doing it once in awhile ever since. I had a few minutes one night with one of the best P-38 pilots online, WUAF_Hero, and that is where I was taught to do this.

Pass, after pass; horizontal, vertical. Peck, peck, peck, peck, peck! And when I am done, provided I have done well, and that isn't easy, my opponent will respect my USAAF ******.



Tsisqua

p1ngu666
12-29-2004, 12:00 AM
try raf/ russian planes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

and ki43 c for manic fun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Von_Zero
12-29-2004, 12:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
try raf/ russian planes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

and ki43 c for manic fun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
wrong... better try the Ki43b, that one has one 7mm and 0ne 13 mm... how do you aim those things? geeeeeezzzz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

pendragon1984
12-29-2004, 12:06 AM
Aw, them .50 cals are like cannon shells. A real flyer hops in a VVS aircraft and exclusively uses .30's. I mean, I use those to hunt deer in real life, so I figure there's probably not much difference in hunting FW 190's. Except the Butcherbird is a bigger target, making it easier to hit!

Eventually, I'm going to make a request to Oleg that he allow the American pilots to carry Colt M1911's up in the planes with them, so I can open up the canopy and start plinking targets that way. After that? Well, ever notice how the Japanese pilots in Pacific Fighters have katana strapped to their backs? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously, though, the .50 is an good round, but it's not ideal for slashing attacks, especially against LW planes. You may be able to get away with it against a Zeke, where a half-second burst has a chance of lighting up a fuel tank, but against the more heavily-armored enemy longer bursts not only work better, they work GREAT! Get a good tracking shot while turning inside a 190 and you'll either mame the pilot, kill the engine, or see some lovely fireworks. There are few things more satisfying than watching a plane explode and seeing the still-spinning prop fly over your canopy, especially when done with .50's!

Basically, learn what convergence works best for you (anywhere from 200-300 meters works well, but once again it depends on your preference) and practice your marksmanship. When in the P-51D or the YP-80, learn how to use that gyro sight. You'll have a new love for those crimson beauties http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

StellarRat
12-29-2004, 01:29 AM
We had three 109's flame up and go down burning with one short burst from our P-47s tonight. One HE-111 whose wing was removed with a long burst and another 6 or 7 109s and 190s whose controls or engines were taken out eventually making them crash, all with short bursts. That was just two of us flying for about an hour in Warclouds (online).

I think you are shooting from too far away or your convergence is set wrong, probably both. Try firing from less than 200 meters with a convergence of 200 or less. Trust me, if your at less than 200 meters everything dies quickly in front of .50s.

As for your flying brick comment, I don't have any problem fighting 190's even down low and I also shoot down a lot of 109's. The 47 is really good up high (6000 meters+) and is a hell of a Boom and Zoom machine. It's not made for low level dogfighting. Plus it can take three times the damage 109s can and still make it home. In a 47, 25% fuel is enough to fly around for a hour (try that in a LW fighter.) If I get in trouble I can dive away from any fighter and be home in two or three minutes (on Warclouds anyway.)

WOLFMondo
12-29-2004, 02:00 AM
The .50's work fine, just look at the stats for some of the best online allied pilots, they only need 10-15 rounds per kill. Its all about convergence and hitting in the right place. I managed to get a Ta152 on warclouds last night in a B25...got hits on the side of the engine at the convergence 300m distance and blew him out the sky. Most gratifying it was too!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

.50's are not good for bombers though unless you go right for the engines or pilot.

About the P47...learn to fly it a little, read up on it. It can outdive anything, if you have 6-7000m and get attacked there is nothing that can keep up with you in a sustain shallow dive. At that height you can also climb with the best of them and due to the ceiling you can go higher than allot of axis planes. Seriously, the only plane I worry about at 7000m+ is a Ta152, the others I can out dive or out climb after a short shallow dive to pick up speed...remember you can also keep you WEP up for allot longer than axis planes and it takes a while to overheat. Try to fly without WEP at all and keep the rads open all the time to keep the temp down then when you engage you can keep the wep on for some time.

Papa_K
12-29-2004, 02:23 AM
Unlike LW cannons and Yak hyper-guns, you need a pretty good burst from the .50's, 1 second or more, holding proper lead on the target, rather than just aiming out front and then letting the target fly through the bullet stream. (I've noticed myself getting that tendency from extended Bf/FW use.)

Bottom Line: In the game, cannons are an advantage.

Papa_K

Related:
To get a good (second-half to late) WWII "USAAF effect", take up 5-10 blue fighters (any LW or Japanese). Oppose them with 25 to 50 (or even 100) US fighters - P-51s or P-47s will do nicely. The "realism" will kill you.

Mysticpuma2003
12-29-2004, 03:15 AM
If I fly axis I fly FW-190 if I fly allies I go for the P-47, any model available. The most important info that should be taken from this thread is the angle of attack.

I was flying with Iceman on warclouds yesterday and he chased a 109 into a banked 45 degree left turn, he was hitting him from behind and I came in at 12 o'clock firing at all control surfaces, a one second burst took the 109 wing off yet iceman had a 3-4 second burst at him from behind, virtually to no effect.

Many 109's and 190's have been smoked up by me, engine's stopped, wings lost, but all using B&Z, hitting on the way down and climbing up and sweeping fire across the fuselage from the 7-9 o'clock or 3-5 o'clock.

The .50's are devestating when used correctly, so try again! They do work....honest!

Abbuzze
12-29-2004, 04:33 AM
Like some guys said before... you have to hit with the 0.50´s... 10 bullets all over the wings are some work for the groundcrew but nothing serious, if not one of them destory a cable...
Meimberg (a german Pilot) once came back with 40 hits (hope I remember correct) in the belly behind the cockpit.

At the moment in this forum is a lot of whining about the 0.50, some people thing it should have no recoil, work like a klingon disruptor after one hit and should be able to shot out a flyseye at 800 yards, but it is a good weapon and It works like it should! to smoke the engine of a plane you have to hit the engine!
I made a trk yesterday, flying a P51, result: 2 109 kills within 3 min. Both got black smoke out of the engine after a real short burst!

right click mouse &gt; save target as
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/zip/0.50cal%20it%20works%203.03m.exe

OldMan____
12-29-2004, 07:58 AM
That is something people must understand. Do not compare a .50 to an MK108.. completely different guns. You will hit much easier with the .50.. but with Mk108 you will obliterate anything when you hit it.


You may not expect that anti fighter weapons to have same effect as anti-heavy bomber weapons.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-29-2004, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weather_Man:
At some point in the patch process (can't remember when) the .50's punch was increased considerably. Have you patched to the latest version?

Also, you're right. The .50 cal is like throwing rice compared to the 30mm cannon. But, I've grown to prefer the straight-flying, high ROF brownings after years of lobbing cannon fire from a 109. It just seems more satifying to get a kill by pecking him to death. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well but the M2 has no "high-ROF" all i can find say something between 450 to 600 RPM, that's not high. But i don't know if there are any differences between ground-mounted and air-mounted .50s.

all i know:
ROF:

MG131: 900RPM
MG151/20: 700RPM
Browning M2: 500-600RPM

anyway shooting with 6 or more of those guns is pretty effectiv against everything.
They do not show so much structural damage as Cannons, but they are verry effective in killing crew, setting fuel tanks on fire, destroy engines and basicly enough to crapp everything which gets hit from them for 1sec or longer (and i mean hit!)

tsisqua
12-29-2004, 08:56 AM
Aww, I knew that it couldn't last long.

I wasn't going to say anything till it was spoiled, but there was something very cool happening here in this threadhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif:

This is the first time that the effectiveness of something in the game has been discussed without the comparison to the real world item that I can remember. Jagdklinger never once, although he may have alluded, mentioned the real world effectiveness of the .50 cal vs the .50's, or performance of AC (or whatever), that are in the game.

You guys, while posting to him advice on how to use the USAAF armament, never once whined that it was not what it was in RL. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not shaking my finger at anyone, only saying that we could enjoy the game <span class="ev_code_GREEN">so much more</span> if would continue this way. I know that this is not a role playing game, but darnit, in a way it is. Nobody can tell me for one second that they aren't becoming a WWII fighter pilot when they climb into one of these birds. Then we come to this forum and have our fun shattered by the constant reminder that something is different from RL. We have become so good at it here that we have designated two terms, "porked", and "uber", to describe most any item in the game.

Jagdklinger, by the wording of your post you were able to "gripe" (its ok, Mate. Gripe away, I was there with the USAAF planes when they came, toohttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) about the armament of US planes, without ever once saying that something was "porked", or that something else was "uber". In doing so, you solicited responses that came in a similar tone. We were suddenly all WWII pilots defending the effectiveness of our rides. That is what I meant when I made the "artist" comment. I personally don't care if the Lightning shakes like hell (ok, maybe I do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), I enjoy it as much as making love. That shake, although probably unrealistic, is a BEAUTIFUL effect, just not one that helps your aim. Its the way that things are in the game at the moment, and by now, I can safely say, will probably stay that way. I believe, and have said it before, that these boards are set up and paid for by Ubi for one reason: to help us to enjoy the game. Oleg, at the begining, asked for and received a forum specifically for the development of the game. To make sure that we knew what it was for, it was named "Oleg's Ready Room". No game, that I am aware of, has ever had an ongoing meeting between the developer and its customers. General Discussion is a place to come to discuss the game itself, and we are even allowed to go OT once in awhile, as long as it can be civil, and at the very least something of interest to those of us that play.

Now, I must apologize for seeming to hijack this great thread, because I would very much like to see it continue as you meant it too, Jagdklinger http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. You should see by now that we, who have been flying these planes for awhile, have developed different fighting styles that work for us when using the US planes. The armament is indeed effective, but to be so it has taken us all alot of trial and error, i.e. practice. I have used my snapshot method, and have smoked 109's on the first pass, but that is not the way it usually happens for me. You have seen LW pilots post here saying that they respect the armament of USAAF planes, rightfully so.

Don't give up on these planes. I know that we Yanks came late into the war, but those of us growing up here have been led to believe since we were children that the Ameriplanes won the war!! I now know better. Shucks, I am 45 years old and would like to think that I am a bit brighter than that, but my pride in these planes is unabashed.

Also, after looking at your post count, I want to welcome you to all this madness, and you'll never get flamed by this Injun.

Tsisqua

FatBoyHK
12-29-2004, 09:19 AM
about the guns performance:

0.50 Cal: 750rpm 870m/s
MG151/20: 740rpm 710m/s or 800m/s (due to different ammo type used)

about whine, I don't know whether I am a whiner or not, on one hand I definiately think there is a huge difference in effectiveness between online 0.50 and offline 0.50. On the other hand I think 0.50 is already good enough for me when I fly online....but of course, I don't mind if it become better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anyway, I just want everything in this game to be simulated more closely to the real thing... and yes, MG151/20 seem to be deserve more attention now... (but I heard that Oleg said clearly that he will not change it)

Abbuzze
12-29-2004, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:

I definiately think there is a huge difference in effectiveness between online 0.50 and offline 0.50.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

100% correct!!! I don´t know why but it is, seems to be for all weapons, very good to recognice if you try to shot down a P63 with a MK108, it is simply not possibly to reach any structural failure!! the best I ever reach is a lost elevator...sometimes a ailereon fall apart
Hmm netcode.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

MEGILE
12-29-2004, 10:01 AM
The P-51 used to be the best the allies had, but since PF it has become weaker..... the P-47 on the other remains an excellent fighter. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Diablo310th
12-29-2004, 10:02 AM
with the .50's now it really seems hitting at convergence is necessary. If you do that I gurantee you will see results. Anything farther out and it deminishes. I'm using 300m right now and doing pretty well with it. Even in closer you do alot of damage. The thing to remember is that while it may not look like your doing much..according to my LW buddies in JV44 you really are. Same way with LW aircraft on the Jug...tho it may seem your not doing much damage ..trust me you are. I'm happy with the .50's. I will agree that they seem to do more damage offline than online.

MichaelMar
12-29-2004, 10:04 AM
You think that is bad?!?!? All I fly is the Fiat G50...try flying it against later war planes(

FatBoyHK
12-29-2004, 10:08 AM
I tend to believe that this strange "online" effect is worse on high ROF weapons (such as 0.50) than low ROF weapons (such as MK108).... I am not a LW flyer so I can't have a definite answer, but that is what I heard from many people here.

The reason behind may be, for MK108, if you get one hit, usually it means a certain death for your enemy, so even if there are some packet loss (i.e. some bullets gone AWOL), it doesn't matter much. Also, because it is a low ROF weapon, fewer bullet need to be tracked, therefore there is a lower chance of bullet loss......

But for 0.50, you need many hits to down a plane, and if there are some problem in the net code that cause a significant number of bullet loss, the effectiveness of 0.50 will be seriously affected. The high ROF of 0.50 also make the matter (much) worse.

FatBoyHK
12-29-2004, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
The P-51 used to be the best the allies had, but since PF it has become weaker..... the P-47 on the other remains an excellent fighter. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The pony has been tuned down a significant bit since PF, but it mainly address the the low-speed handling issue, therefore if you fly the pony right (i.e. stay fast), it will be just as competitive as before.

But actually I started flying online since PF 3.01, therefore I am unable to make the informed comparison.

FatBoyHK
12-29-2004, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
with the .50's now it really seems hitting at convergence is necessary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found that the angle of your fire is waaaay more important then whether your target is on the convergence or not. Even on convergence, a short burst from dead six will yield need to nothing. However, a high angle-off-tail snapshot (which the engine, wings and cockpit are exposed), even not on convergence (but given that it is within effective range, let's say 300 meters) will going to be a killing blow.

BuzzU
12-29-2004, 11:11 AM
If you like American planes (I do). You take what they give you, and do your best.

I never have to say to myself. "I got lucky and hit you with my big a$$ cannon."

Eagle_361st
12-29-2004, 11:42 AM
The biggest thing to remember about American aircraft, is that they are much like our cars. Big, fast and pretty. They are meant to be flown fast, high and straight. Yes you can do some turning, but don't make it a habit else you will become everyones favorite target drone. Learn to make proper BnZ attacks, coming in fast from atop enemy aircraft, or coming in from their front but slightly high position. Make one fast pass, climb back up , get into position and repeat until target is destroyed or damaged.

Bearcat99
12-29-2004, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:

I definiately think there is a huge difference in effectiveness between online 0.50 and offline 0.50.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

100% correct!!! I don´t know why but it is, seems to be for all weapons, very good to recognice if you try to shot down a P63 with a MK108, it is simply not possibly to reach any structural failure!! the best I ever reach is a lost elevator...sometimes a ailereon fall apart
Hmm netcode.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lag and packet loss is why. The best way to judge the guns and cannon in this sim is still offline.

Megile wrote:
The P-51 used to be the best the allies had, but since PF it has become weaker..... the P-47 on the other remains an excellent fighter.
While I agree that the Jug is an excellent fighter (LOL... anybody remember that 10+ page thread that turned into a flame fest when FB first came out and I said that...LOL... although the FB1.0 Jug was nowhere near what we have now except in looks) I think the Pony is a decent bird.... Just dont do any head ons with it. One good hit to the engine and you are done but the bird does well for me.

Cajun76
12-29-2004, 12:12 PM
Two great quotes out of this thread make it all worth it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Buzz's <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"If you like American planes (I do). You take what they give you, and do your best.

I never have to say to myself. "I got lucky and hit you with my big a$$ cannon."" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and the one I LOLed on, by Tsisqua:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And when I am done, provided I have done well, and that isn't easy, my opponent will respect my USAAF ******. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

StellarRat
12-29-2004, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:

I found that the angle of your fire is waaaay more important then whether your target is on the convergence or not. Even on convergence, a short burst from dead six will yield need to nothing. However, a high angle-off-tail snapshot (which the engine, wings and cockpit are exposed), even not on convergence (but given that it is within effective range, let's say 300 meters) will going to be a killing blow. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've found that .50s really drop off in effectiveness past 300m no matter what your convergence is. I can guarentee you that if you are within 100m it doesn't matter what convergence or angle you are at you are going to do some serious damage with a short burst. My new rule of thumb is to get the enemy fighter in my sight ring wingtip to wingtip before I fire (if he doesn't see me of course.) I haven't had anyone fly off undamaged when those conditions are met.

faustnik
12-29-2004, 02:02 PM
On a related note, has the DM of the Ki-84 changed in 3.03? In a COOP yesterday I had a perfect low deflection opportunity in ny F4U-1D against a Ki-84. One burst hit the wing root and it popped right off. I thought, OK, got lucky. When it happened twice more each time with a single burst I started to think that something chaged. Still had a plenty of ammo left over after the 3 Ki-84s to get a Zero in a protracted 1 0n 1.

So, has the .50 DM been increased in 3.03 or the Ki-84 toughness decreased?

Chuck_Older
12-29-2004, 02:38 PM
You're underwhelmed by the gun performance, but you blame it on "USAAF Fighters"?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

yes, well everyone knows, the performance of a weapon dictates performance of a plane! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ever since I had the chance to fly the P-51 in FB (ACE expansion), through all the iterations of the FM and gun performance, I never had a problem ripping enemy a/c apart with point fifties

But I did spend much time setting my convergance and learning how to hit targets at that range. When i am not at my convergance, and I pull the trigger (which I do all the time, but I know I am "off"), I hardly expect to see the full effect of four or six machine guns. Who's fault is it that I only hit with two guns out of four or six? Mine. That's 50% or 33" of the potential damage. And often, if you hit what you aim at, it's enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

MEGILE
12-29-2004, 02:44 PM
The P-51 now resembles the real life version.. weak at low alts but one of the best up high.
Allies, take the fight upstairs and you will dominate easily.
Axis planes, bar TA-152, simply cannot compete with the P-47D27, P-51D20NA and Spit IXeHF over 25,000FT

Jagdklinger
12-29-2004, 02:47 PM
Thanks, Tsiqua, it's good to see everyone taking the subject in the spirit it was intended.

Thanks for the P38 stall loop trick - I'm off to trial it; as I said, I reckon P38 is pick of the bunch; basically, whatever the P47 can do, it can do better... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (I'm so lucky my internet connection is keeping me offline games-wise, or I'd be soooo dead by every USAAF pilot I met...)

I'd like to comment that USAAF are almost exclusively BnZ fighters (only the P51 seems to be more than 2-dimensional yet has the weakest punch of them all...), and to quote Pendragon "the 50 is a good round, but not ideal for slashing attacks." Why painstakingly set yourself up for two or three BnZ attacks when in 190, the first pass does the job. One pass, one kill. The 50 cal seems to suit a TnB deflection fight.

I mean, i think Fatboy HK nailed it when he mentioned "100 rounds to down a He111" - my last pass on a He111 (in a 190, for trial purposes) blew off both wings and cut the fuselage in halves. You guys with the '******s' may show more skill with your careful gunnery, but isn't that what makes a good weapon - effective and idiot-proof? Longbows were more effective than the earliest gunpowder weapons, in skilled hands - i.e. how many modern jets have 50cals? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Despite the persuasive arguments, I remain obstinate and I'd like to leave the last word with Papa K - '....cannon more effective'

PS: Everyone seems to be coming out in defence of their beloved 50s - has someone done a 50cal vs cannon poll yet? (I'd b interested to see what the overall view is, but i don't want to repeat an old poll...)

Chuck_Older
12-29-2004, 02:54 PM
Some versions of the P-51 have four guns. Some have six http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Same punch as the P-40E and later, F4U with mgs, and F6F, right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cannons are more effective, obviously. The reason the USAAC/USAAF married themselves to the M2 is irrelevant; it happened and that's that

Cannons are also, in general, heavier and have a slower ROF in real life. But like i said, it's moot as to why the USAAC/USAAF used them. they did, and they were good solid weapons.

I'm sure many USAAC/USAAF pilots felt they could not hit the broad side of a barn, and the mgs didn't do much, but you have a huge advantage: you can practice gunnery more efficiently than they ever could

If you are getting poor results from the 50 cals and others are getting good results, it's hardly the fault of those who do well with it, now is it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GR142-Pipper
12-29-2004, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
Firing those 50 cals is like piddling into the wind: it only feels good when you stop. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Agreed. My experience with the American planes (specifically, the P-51 and P-47) in this game is that they suffer from the following:

- very weak 50 caliber machine guns
- very poor rates of acceleration
- very poor maximum low level speed relative to opponents
- very high ability to easily black out
- very poor energy retention
- rather poor rearward visibility for bubble canopied versions

These negative game attributes just don't match the actual capabilities as well as the fine war records these aircraft amassed in real life.

GR142-Pipper

Atomic_Marten
12-29-2004, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
As Santa brought me FB:AEP I have had my interest in USAAF planes revitalised. After playing nothing but various P38s, P47s and P51s for the last few days,I must say I am seriously unimpresssed by them. Perhaps more specifically, their choice of armament.

Firing those 50 cals is like piddling into the wind: it only feels good when you stop. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Admittedly I am an all of two weeks 'expert'and unabashed Luftwaffe fan, but really, the USAAF planes seriously lack punch. I seem to see a lot of people saying how great the P47s'8 50s (or did you say .22 cal?) are, but after an afternoon trialling them against everything from biplanes to bombers, I beg to differ.

Yes, my gunnery is excerable http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but after replaying all the tracks (as part of my 'deflection shooting self-improvement program'), and watching over two dozen strikes on the engine and wing root of a He111 with no apparent effect - or pouring dozens of shots into a 109 without even a HINT of the dreaded radiator/engine damage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I find it painful viewing. For example, I put about six bursts into a 109 from 150-250 yards, when with a Luftwaffe fighter, the first one would have sent it spiralling out of control, missing significant airframe parts (such as a wing... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
No wonder HMGs have so much ammo - they need it all to down a single plane...

Basically, I seem to need 3 passes to have the same effect as a single LW attack; and US planes are simply not 3x better. OK, the P51 IS a nice flyer, but if it can't actually down planes, what's the point?... The P38 with its concentrated cone of fire (and CANNON, did I say it has CANNON? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif ) seems the pick of the bunch, but like the P47, is basically a high-horsepower brick with wings, as it can be outrun (and even out-maneouvred) by even the 190, which can pack 6 cannon as well as those redundant HMGs. Two 'cool looking' engines? Tough construction? A nice way of saying a plane has nothing else going for it.... It's like putting a shark's mouth on an obsolescent design (yes, P40, I'm talking about you...)

And a 30mm Mk108 shell doesn't care....

Now I remember why I never play BoB games....

&lt;braces himself for severe flaming...&gt; http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally disagree. I find 0.50s to be excellent weapon.
What I found amusing is sawed off ailerons and some parts of the a/c with 0.50s.(they leave neat little smoke while spiralling away from enemy a/c) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

About He111. Also I don't find anything unusual there. I have some cases when he recieves multiple hits from my Cobra (yes multiple hits from T9 cannon) yet he continues to fly.

About online, there situation is not so bright for 0.50s if one is flying on a 'free' server (all planes). Large weapons dominate there.But it should do fine on 'historical' ones.

WUAF_Badsight
12-29-2004, 07:28 PM
He-111 has the most "advanced" DM out of all bombers in FB (dunno about PF)

all other bombers in FB were not as highly developed in their DM

WUAF_Badsight
12-29-2004, 07:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
- very weak 50 caliber machine guns <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
well MG's should never inflict the same damadge as cannons

"one pass" kills should be a very rare thing for MG equipped planes (unless your bandit is flying paper)

IRL once you even seen tracers flying past you , nevermind feeling hits , you bugged the hell out of there & ran home

in FB ill fight till im dead no matter how bad im hit

NorrisMcWhirter
12-29-2004, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
Firing those 50 cals is like piddling into the wind: it only feels good when you stop. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Agreed. My experience with the American planes (specifically, the P-51 and P-47) in this game is that they suffer from the following:

- very weak 50 caliber machine guns
- very poor rates of acceleration
- very poor maximum low level speed relative to opponents
- very high ability to easily black out
- very poor energy retention
- rather poor rearward visibility for bubble canopied versions

These negative game attributes just don't match the actual capabilities as well as the fine war records these aircraft amassed in real life.

GR142-Pipper <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Funny, cos in the Pierre Clostermann book I'm reading, he was saying that, on one mission, the razorback P47s had been massacred over Europe when they first arrived there...i.e. when the LW had sufficient numbers to defend themselves with.

This debate will never end but I do get the feeling that people are expecting the .50 cals to have the same effect as 20mm+ cannon hits on aircraft.

I've posted a link to a fighter gun strength site in another thread which suggests that the Fw190A4's armament was 50% better than the P47's 8 .50s. Are you seriously suggesting that the P47 should be better than the 190A4?

I fly both sides but mainly LW and I can safely say that I'm rarely disappointed with either Spitfires/P47/P38/Hellcats/Wildcats/Corsairs (don't fly the P51 much - it's unrefined) at convergence range. Sure, I sometimes hack away at a bandit and wonder why I don't down it but it's usually because I'm too far away (convergence) or that they are jinking effectively.

Cheers,
norris

JR_Greenhorn
12-30-2004, 12:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
...watching over two dozen strikes on the engine and wing root...
...pouring dozens of shots...
...I put about six bursts... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't have anything to say about the discussion here, nor do I mean to criticize anyone. I'm just wondering if you are practicing your gunnery with Arcade mode on? It's amazing what you think you see compared to what is actually happening in game. Turn on arcade mode, and you can count the hits and see exactly where they landed.

GR142-Pipper
12-30-2004, 12:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
This debate will _never end_ but I do get the feeling that people are expecting the .50 cals to have the same effect as 20mm+ cannon hits on aircraft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The only expectation that I have is for the 50s to behave like 50s instead of 30s as they do now.

GR142-Pipper

Von_Zero
12-30-2004, 12:41 AM
then what are .303 behaving like then?

Fehler
12-30-2004, 01:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
...according to my LW buddies in JV44 ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Name these traitors.. they will be shot!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But we will use Russian guns because they are Ooober.. LOL

Diablo310th
12-30-2004, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
...according to my LW buddies in JV44 ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Name these traitors.. they will be shot!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But we will use Russian guns because they are Ooober.. LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:X I will never reveal my spies. But I can say they have fallen beneath the mighty power of 8 fifties. LOL Another hint lyes here in this link. http://www.310thvfs.com/userExpandAKill.php?grab=49
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Heavy_Weather
12-30-2004, 09:03 AM
I have no problems scoring with .50's, even .30 caliber, just have to hit the critical spots.

Red_Russian13
12-30-2004, 11:24 AM
I used to despise the .50 in game (now in RL, I don't mind the Barret!). I used to prefer the 109 with it's 20 or 30mm, and I was pretty good at hitting things with that lobber of a cannon.

Well, in the last few weeks, I've started a USMC campaign (I am a Marine after all). I'm beginning to have an appreciation for the M2 in the air.

As many have said, it's all a matter of convergence and deflection shooting and hitting critical spots and your angle of attack. And it depends on your target.

For example, your average IJA/IJN planes can easily burst into flames. I've had several just EXPLODE with only a few rounds. You can saw off a wing fairly easily on most of the fighters. Now, that Betty bomber can be tougher, but she'll still go down. I've found that the control surfaces on the horizontal stabilizer fall off pretty easily, and it's engines can't take but a few hits with the .50. And the pilot, well, he doesn't like too many .50 rounds in his cockpit.

I think, with practice, any of the weapons in the game can be used effectively. They all have thier weaknesses too. The Mk108 (my preferred weapon) has a pretty drastic drop and is farily slow. The .50s seem weak sometimes, but they are accurate and there are many. They have a bunch of ammo too. Same with the .303s.

p1ngu666
12-30-2004, 11:25 AM
all the guns do less damage onwhine...
usaaf/usn rated a cannon (hispano) tobe worth 3 .50cals i think.

we all want whatever we hit to die instantly, but if it was like that, onwhine would be no fun, due to it being like flying against ki84c's all the **** time.

50cal is suffiecent against fighters, which is what usa planes went against, raf/lw/russian/japanease/italian went against bombers, so cannons are better

Fehler
12-30-2004, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
...according to my LW buddies in JV44 ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Name these traitors.. they will be shot!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But we will use Russian guns because they are Ooober.. LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:X I will never reveal my spies. But I can say they have fallen beneath the mighty power of 8 fifties. LOL Another hint lyes here in this link. http://www.310thvfs.com/userExpandAKill.php?grab=49
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFLMAO! But do you have a coffe cup commemorating such an event?

http://www.cafepress.com/jv44

Hehe!

chaikanut
12-30-2004, 12:36 PM
50 cals are not weak. The advantage american planes have is a lot of ammo, so set your convergence at 170m, start firing from 300 as you pass by. If you come directly from 6' wou will rip the tail off, if you come from above your enemy will crumble like a tin can. Well armoured airplanes like the 190 are tougher and may take 2sec bursts from 6' without falling appart, however the enemy pilot will certainly bail due to damaged controls. I personally think it is too easy (not overmoddeled) to get kills with 6 50cal.

WUAF_Badsight
12-30-2004, 02:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
The P-51 now resembles the real life version.. weak at low alts but one of the best up high.
Allies, take the fight upstairs and you will dominate easily.
Axis planes, bar TA-152, simply cannot compete with the P-47D27, P-51D20NA and Spit IXeHF over 25,000FT <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
WORD !

clint-ruin
12-30-2004, 03:07 PM
Badsight - check your PM :&gt;

lrrp22
12-30-2004, 05:47 PM
Is this 'weak at low altitude' myth ever going to go away? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
The P-51 now resembles the real life version.. weak at low alts but one of the best up high.
Allies, take the fight upstairs and you will dominate easily.
Axis planes, bar TA-152, simply cannot compete with the P-47D27, P-51D20NA and Spit IXeHF over 25,000FT <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WUAF_Badsight
12-30-2004, 06:04 PM
what myth ?

good level speed a dominat fighter does not make

oh wait , you mean its average climb rate & average turning ability was actually better than its contemporaries ?

lrrp22
12-30-2004, 08:19 PM
'Dominant' and 'Weak' are two very different things, Badsight.

Excellent level speed, the high speed handling to match it, and excellent energy retension *does* an excellent fighter make, low or high.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
what myth ?

good level speed a dominat fighter does not make

oh wait , you mean its average climb rate & average turning ability was actually better than its contemporaries ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

p1ngu666
12-30-2004, 11:04 PM
well, p51 and p51A and apache dive bomber where **** up high, mmmm alison engine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

merlin p51's where mearly famous for saving the 8af bacon and others, merlin gave good all round performance.
p51a could outrun lw fighters down low, prolly g6/g2 area.

i bet it was a fun time for lw fliers, get called up last minute to intercept p51a/typhoon/mossie, (flying low) and for the most part, fail to intercept...

or having to try and climb upto a pr mossie or spit...

also has a handy range to turn up somewhere and make a mischief of itself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Aaron_GT
12-31-2004, 06:44 AM
"well, p51 and p51A and apache dive bomber where **** up high, mmmm alison engine"

Allisons could be good up high, just not the versions fitted int he A36 and P51 and P51A. The Allisons in the Lightning did well at high altitude due to better supercharging gear.

pendragon1984
12-31-2004, 10:28 PM
Well, I hereby retract my statement about the .50 and slashing attacks, and here's why:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/pendragon84/grab0001.jpg

After something like a 2 second burst (possibly less) a German He-111 vanished in a large, orange cloud, becoming the series of scrap metal you see behind my P-51 there... I think one of my bullets may have found its way into the bomb bay http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I do have a track of the event, just not sure where to upload it.

Dammerung
12-31-2004, 11:33 PM
Rawr, Nice Shot! There's a Guncam up on Wiley's site, shows a Jerry who gets HAMMERED in the Cockpit with .50 cal. I suspect it's a P-47 that's shooting. About 15 strikes, then BOOM. The .50 Cal M2 was a nasty weapon.

FatBoyHK
01-01-2005, 02:49 AM
0.50 has absolutely no problem offline. However, if you play online you will see it is much worst... 2 seconds to finish a He111? There is no way to do that online, in one sorties I did 4 high-side attack on a already injuried He111... 100+ hits were scored at convegence, but it was still flying happily..... it is insane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

JG5_UnKle
01-01-2005, 03:45 AM
Even Oleg said the .50's are overmodelled - what gives?

They beefed up the accuracy and lowered the spread of the rounds (if historical fair enough, but OM disagrees..) and increased their power.

You need to actually hit what you are shooting at now to bring it down but the .50 cal's are very different when you are on the receiving end - be sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

WUAF_Badsight
01-01-2005, 03:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
0.50 has absolutely no problem offline. However, if you play online you will see it is much worst... 2 seconds to finish a He111? There is no way to do that online, in one sorties I did 4 high-side attack on a already injuried He111... 100+ hits were scored at convegence, but it was still flying happily..... it is insane <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
this is a joke isnt it ?

i ean seriously , you just kidding around here arnt you ?

pendragon1984
01-01-2005, 04:23 AM
No, he's probably not. (Apologies if you're actually female, FBHK, I'm just going by the word "boy" in your name here).

When packet loss gets bad, the majority of your rounds will go MIA. Imagine playing offline, except firing as such that you'll jam up your guns if you hold the trigger for more than a couple heartbeats at a time. You're almost required to aim exclusively for the engines or cockpit to get the most out of your rounds. And, in theory, that's what we all should try to do anyway, but we know how that works out a lot of the times.

Well... you could relegate yourself to only hunting Japanese planes, I suppose. I haven't quite shot down a Zeke just by looking at it yet, but I'm workin' on it!

If it's any consolation, when there's a human player manning the He-111 guns he has to deal with the same packet losses, and oftentimes weaker rounds as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FatBoyHK
01-01-2005, 08:50 AM
no I am NOT kidding. But I am not whining, I always said I prefer 0.50 over any cannons in this game, even with its "weakened" online effectiveness. I just think it is freaking strange to have a huge difference between on and offline.

Diablo310th
01-01-2005, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
...according to my LW buddies in JV44 ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Name these traitors.. they will be shot!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But we will use Russian guns because they are Ooober.. LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:X I will never reveal my spies. But I can say they have fallen beneath the mighty power of 8 fifties. LOL Another hint lyes here in this link. http://www.310thvfs.com/userExpandAKill.php?grab=49
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFLMAO! But do you have a coffe cup commemorating such an event?

http://www.cafepress.com/jv44

Hehe! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm working on it Fehler. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Sikira want one of me burning in my Jug but I can't ever remember that happening.

Copperhead310th
01-01-2005, 12:27 PM
I've posted this link before from the Virtual Thundebolt Pilots Forum (http://invisionfree.com/forums/310th_VFBG/index.php?showforum=25) but for those who havn't seen them and for those that want to know.....Here's what 8- .50 Cal m2 brownings could do. Actung! Jabos! (http://368thfightergroup.com/guncamera.html)

tigertalon
01-01-2005, 03:57 PM
Did you install last patch 2.04? They are fixed there. But at the beginning, they were really ****... Just a tought.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
As Santa brought me FB:AEP I have had my interest in USAAF planes revitalised. After playing nothing but various P38s, P47s and P51s for the last few days,I must say I am seriously unimpresssed by them. Perhaps more specifically, their choice of armament.

Firing those 50 cals is like piddling into the wind: it only feels good when you stop. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Admittedly I am an all of two weeks 'expert'and unabashed Luftwaffe fan, but really, the USAAF planes seriously lack punch. I seem to see a lot of people saying how great the P47s'8 50s (or did you say .22 cal?) are, but after an afternoon trialling them against everything from biplanes to bombers, I beg to differ.

Yes, my gunnery is excerable http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but after replaying all the tracks (as part of my 'deflection shooting self-improvement program'), and watching over two dozen strikes on the engine and wing root of a He111 with no apparent effect - or pouring dozens of shots into a 109 without even a HINT of the dreaded radiator/engine damage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I find it painful viewing. For example, I put about six bursts into a 109 from 150-250 yards, when with a Luftwaffe fighter, the first one would have sent it spiralling out of control, missing significant airframe parts (such as a wing... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
No wonder HMGs have so much ammo - they need it all to down a single plane...

Basically, I seem to need 3 passes to have the same effect as a single LW attack; and US planes are simply not 3x better. OK, the P51 IS a nice flyer, but if it can't actually down planes, what's the point?... The P38 with its concentrated cone of fire (and CANNON, did I say it has CANNON? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif ) seems the pick of the bunch, but like the P47, is basically a high-horsepower brick with wings, as it can be outrun (and even out-maneouvred) by even the 190, which can pack 6 cannon as well as those redundant HMGs. Two 'cool looking' engines? Tough construction? A nice way of saying a plane has nothing else going for it.... It's like putting a shark's mouth on an obsolescent design (yes, P40, I'm talking about you...)

And a 30mm Mk108 shell doesn't care....

Now I remember why I never play BoB games....

&lt;braces himself for severe flaming...&gt; http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ElmerFuddGantry
01-02-2005, 12:11 AM
Santa flys for the Luftwaffe. There is nothing you can do about this, until you get off his "Who has been naughty?" list. Good luck, merry christmas and a happy new year.

Furious-E
01-02-2005, 02:29 AM
Here's a little picture I took to illustrate what kind of damage .50 cals can do without making a big show of it like cannons.

This was a single 1-2 second strafe of a friendly fighter from about 200m where I had my convergence set. Except for looking like a pincushion, there was really no visible damage to the plane from my point of view, but that plane was absolutely unflyable after my one pass. It crashed to earth half a minute later.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/SuperEric/shotup.jpg

TheGozr
01-02-2005, 02:52 AM
They are great you can fly with a cup of coffee in one hand the joystick in the other.. everything is automatic... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Diablo310th
01-02-2005, 08:31 AM
Look at the spread of those 50's. and that was at 200m convergence. Maybe it's me but dang.....that's wide. No wonder I don't get more hits than I do.

FatBoyHK
01-02-2005, 08:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Furious-E:
Here's a little picture I took to illustrate what kind of damage .50 cals can do without making a big show of it like cannons.

This was a single 1-2 second strafe of a friendly fighter from about 200m where I had my convergence set. Except for looking like a pincushion, there was really no visible damage to the plane from my point of view, but that plane was absolutely unflyable after my one pass. It crashed to earth half a minute later.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

again, it is offline. 0.50 has no problem offline.... I bother myself to say it once again, that we are talking about the effectiveness of 0.50 *online*

Abbuzze
01-02-2005, 10:31 AM
Just tested a bit (online).
After killing 2 109 in one flight, I checked my gunstats.... more than 2200 shots fired... with 2% hits... so 20hits per shot down plane. It seems to be more a problem of good aiming!! Not of the weapon!!!!!!

Used to have just one good cannon in my nose(the planes nose of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) I think I´m not that bad in aiming, but maybe the ability of the US-planes to react very fast to steering inputs at all speeds is part of the "problem".

Just a fast calculation.
center of movement in a P47 is ~4m away from the propeller, now pushing the pedal down and resulting a 10cm movement of the nose...
this is just a differnce of 1.43 deg
at 150m... the point of convergance is moving 3,74m!!!!

So all the guys which were applauding to the decrease of 0.50 dispersion... BRAVO! Now most of all bullets are concentrate in this moving conv.point... which is in most cases not at the target http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif - More dispersion means more chance to hit even the conv.point is not 100% at the target!

For practice take a 109 and just use the nosecannon, now you will see how often you are real hitting in the convergance point!! Don´t be disapointed guys! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif For aiming there is no real difference for wingguns or noseguns, even if many people believe this....

FatBoyHK
01-02-2005, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbuzze:
Just tested a bit (online).
After killing 2 109 in one flight, I checked my gunstats.... more than 2200 shots fired... with 2% hits... so 20hits per shot down plane. It seems to be more a problem of good aiming!! Not of the weapon!!!!!!

Used to have just one good cannon in my nose(the planes nose of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) I think I´m not that bad in aiming, but maybe the ability of the US-planes to react very fast to steering inputs at all speeds is part of the "problem".

Just a fast calculation.
center of movement in a P47 is ~4m away from the propeller, now pushing the pedal down and resulting a 10cm movement of the nose...
this is just a differnce of 1.43 deg
at 150m... the point of convergance is moving 3,74m!!!!

So all the guys which were applauding to the decrease of 0.50 dispersion... BRAVO! Now most of all bullets are concentrate in this moving conv.point... which is in most cases not at the target http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif - More dispersion means more chance to hit even the conv.point is not 100% at the target!

For practice take a 109 and just use the nosecannon, now you will see how often you are real hitting in the convergance point!! Don´t be disapointed guys! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif For aiming there is no real difference for wingguns or noseguns, even if many people believe this.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Abbuzze you are absolutely correct, it doesn't need many hit to kill a 109. At the begining I was at lost to explain why I found the online 0.50 to be a lot weaker than ofline. AI actually perform very well in dodging your fire, so it is not the factor. Not long ago someone suggest it may be because of the netcode and the packet loss. And I believe so.

Furious-E
01-02-2005, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
Look at the spread of those 50's. and that was at 200m convergence. Maybe it's me but dang.....that's wide. No wonder I don't get more hits than I do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That has more to do with my lack of aim than it does with the .50's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif I swept across him from right to left as I approached and passed him, hence the large spread.

@FatboyHK, I was just using that to illustrate that the damage done by .50's isn't as flashy as that done by cannons, but with the right convergence you can really cripple a plane with a single burst. I don't know much about online play since I've only been playing this game for a little over a month and haven't really ventured online yet.

FatBoyHK
01-02-2005, 08:58 PM
Furious, take it easy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I started flying online one month ago and I think it teach me new things 10 times faster than offline play... give it a try!

Diablo310th
01-03-2005, 12:23 PM
Furious....Fatboy is right. You'll learn 10X faster online than you will offline. Be prepared to get your butt handed to you for a little while. There are some really good pilots out there.

MEGILE
01-03-2005, 04:05 PM
Don't go online.
It is full of nasty people who say rude things when you shoot them down.
The online crowd are the only ones who have discontent, and like to whine about FMs and DMs.

Stay safe, stay offline.

Furious-E
01-03-2005, 04:09 PM
Eh, I'll probably start trying online as soon as I'm comfortable with my aim (getting there).

And FatBoy, I don't know why you told me to take it easy, I wasn't angry or anything http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif