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View Full Version : The Realistic aspect of this sim.......



Jumoschwanz
10-24-2005, 11:42 AM
The realism of many features of this sim have been debated over the last four years. Mostly physical things like performance and flight models and pilot positions and aircraft design.

Most often this sim is used as another computer game, but it can offer some simulation, and the feature of this sim that may be the most realistic is it's ability, when used properly, to simulate some of the experience of a WWII combat mission.

For example, you can go on an online server that is patterned with a map and planeset that is historical. You can put a full tank of gas in your craft and take off and fly around for a long-long time and not see a **** thing. But the whole time you are keeping your head on a swivel, and are in a state of tension over the possibility of being bounced any second.

If after a very long time you run into a bogie, you are faced with identifying it, and setting up a succesful attack, that will disable the enemy craft and allow you to get home alive.

If flown in a historical manner, the mission in this sim can yield historical results.
Also interesting is the fact that the tactics developed by top aces and tacticians during WWI and WWII, can be used in this sim to produce the same results they garnered in those wars.

When I am in the mood, I can join an online scripted dogfight server with full-realistic settings. I can load up a full tank of gas and fly around for a long time. Sometimes I land with an empty tank after more than an hour. Sometimes I will spot one bogie the whole time, make a firing pass and watch him dissapear down trailing smoke or fuel. I don't follow him down because there might be another bogie around, I climb back up to alt and continue looking and watching the fuel gauge to tell me when to turn home.

If I am in a battle, I may use up more fuel and not be able to get home. Like Hartmann on one of his last missions, bailing out of his craft with seven or eight Mustangs on his tail as he runs out of gas(he got a few of them though).

This happened to me last night on a server, after using up a whole tank of gas in my 109, I engaged a Spitfire as my fuel warning light came on telling me I had only an eighth tank left and I should be making a beeline for home. I hit the Spit good and he fell out of the battle, but immediatley another Spit picked me up. After a few passes at each other, my fuel was gone and the engine stopped. The Spit was setting up another pass, so I bailed and that was the end of it.

When you get immersed in the moment, you can forget you are in a sim. It is a real experience for you. I have had my adrenaline and heart pumping as if I was really in a threatening situation many times during a dogfight that materializes suddenly after a very long period of just patroling an area.

When you do complete a whole virtual mission, using up a whole tank of gas and maybe even a droptank too, hurt the enemy and make it back to base after maybe even a couple of hours, you may have been immersed enough to have gone through some of the tension, anxiety, horror or elation that was surely a part of WWII aerial missions.
Just watching movies makes a lot of poeple identify with it enough to cry, so a sim like this could certainly do something similiar.

I just read an article where a Mustang pilot, in an unusually long engagement with a german 109, was found to have lost fifteen pounds upon landing. I have not ever checked my weight after a harrowing virtual mission. But I know I have sweated a lot of them out and felt relief at ending them in success.

Sorry for the long post. But in summary, using historical tactics and methods along with the realistic settings in the sim, can let you perform tasks, get results, and feel some stress that you can read about in the history books.

For fun fly arcade and turn and burn on the deck, for relief, get through a long mission on realistic settings.

Jumoschwanz

DxyFlyr
10-24-2005, 12:07 PM
This is exactly why the IL2 series is still on my hard drive 4 years later.

Nice post Jumoschwanz.

danjama
10-24-2005, 12:50 PM
Ive always wondered if this happens to anyone else; to pu it into context:

Yesterday i flew one of my Coops, a P39 Ground Attack on the Eastern Front with P40's escorting and Fockes and Gustavs intercepting. All the while BF110's were scrambling once we started the attack! In my P40 with 3 others behind me were at 4500m, i spotted a nice tight formation of 109s to our left around 11 o clock (Human players in formation can u believe it)! Called them out and all ehll broke loose, i smoked a 109 on a first pass, then i disengaged immediately. Got down to 2000m where i could see the rest of my squad mixing it up and 190s attacking our cobras down above the enemy base! So i drop down, and would u know it, i am SHAKING! I am actually feeling nerves trying to concentrate so hard! The game is that immersive.I overshoot the 190 in my sights but i manage to lock onto a 110 taking off and get his engine alight, he breaks and scrapes to a halt at the end of the runway. I pull up and climb for the heavens, all the while the Anton that i overshot is tracing me and is right on my 6! BANG! Bullets are hittin my wings, holes scatter on my canopy. By now i am trembling, really shaking. I bank hard and fast and dive, then pull a scissors. I pull back up and the heavens have sent a P40 to rescure me. The anton disengages me and i am left gliding at 500m with no engine and a healthy trail of smoke giving away position. I bring her down slowly into a field just on the front line and i sit there, stick in hand, and wonder how i had forgotten about that 190! Now i may be captured. Then i hit F2 and remember im in a game! WOW!

Bearcat99
10-24-2005, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
When you get immersed in the moment, you can forget you are in a sim. It is a real experience for you. I have had my adrenaline and heart pumping as if I was really in a threatening situation many times during a dogfight that materializes suddenly after a very long period of just patroling an area.

When you do complete a whole virtual mission, using up a whole tank of gas and maybe even a droptank too, hurt the enemy and make it back to base after maybe even a couple of hours, you may have been immersed enough to have gone through some of the tension, anxiety, horror or elation that was surely a part of WWII aerial missions.

For fun fly arcade and turn and burn on the deck, for relief, get through a long mission on realistic settings.

Jumoschwanz

Jumo you just summed up in a nutshell the beauty of this sim and why regardless to how many people complain about it and call it arcadish or whatever.... it is and will remain the TOP DOG of WW2 combat sims until something better comes along..... and that doesnt seem too likely.. at least not til 06/07 when the next generation of 1C sims comes out.

-HH-Quazi
10-24-2005, 04:21 PM
Yea, no matter how a patch release effects the playability or performance of this sim, that particular experience you described is always there for anyone wanting it. It's the essence of the fight/flight. It's always intense. Great post.

Slater_51st
10-24-2005, 05:39 PM
One of my first times on a near full real server, I was cruising along in my 190 A6, had been up for about an hour and hadn't seen anyone. Started heading back to base(yes, I was lone Wulfing it). Noticed I was near out of gas. Being pretty high up, I decided to cut the engine and coast in for a while(BAD idea). So, after about 30 seconds, I realized I should start engine. Hit the I key...nothing. I continued to drop, at around 2000m or so, I notice a dot coming for me at high speed. I have no engine, I can't maneuver, I give myself up as dead. Sure enough, it's a Spit, roars in behind my six, does a bit of a formation with me, then pulls up into a cloud and disappears. Wow! That was nice of him! I was sweaty, shaking...

So, about 200m above ground, engine finally snapped on, and I headed back to base, a bit worse for wear. Flying at low level way behind my lines, I go under some clouds, when all sudden another spit shows up from up high. We get into a nice little scrap. I still don't know how, but I managed to maneuver with him well enough at slow speed to avoid dying. After a couple minutes of that, he crashed, I ran home to base and landed. My engine ran out of fuel on the runway iirc.

I couldn't fly for a few minutes, had to get up and walk it off. While I love all aspects of this sim, there is nothing more exciting than getting into a scrap in FR, or taking off, watching the ground slowly fade away, or bringing it back after being shot up, bailing in the thick of a dogfight...the list goes on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I love it!

S! Slate

danjama
10-24-2005, 05:54 PM
"watching the ground slowly fade away"

I often do this, just slip my view so im looking back and down at the runway! It reminds me of when i took my first lesson, that was the first thing i did. Fantastic part of flying is watchin the grounds fade. Love it! What that Spit done is great.

Lucius_Esox
10-24-2005, 09:14 PM
Great post Jumoschwanz.

Flying full real and not seeing anything for an hour or so might not be everyone's cup of tea. What makes it better for me in that situation is that you know that the other guy is just like you, i.e. deadly serious!!

On occasions when I have seen them first and managed to manouvre myself so I can get a run on them without being discovered (enough speed so can shut throttle at last minute so they cant hear me etc) my hands physically shake lol..

Can you imagine what thats like after 4.02 hehehe..

Yeah it's a GREAT sim..

Davinci..
10-24-2005, 10:10 PM
Whole hartedly agree.

dispite all the plane (a) is (b)-mph slower then book (c) says it is, that these forums are completely filled with.

This sim provides one hell of an experience, and can really immerse you if you let it.

I fly completely offline now(as i no longer have high speed like i used to).
And i fly full real, with all screen messages off, not because i think its harder, but purely for the immersion factor. And it delivers!

best example is a p38 campaign i was flying, and durring a ground pounding mission, i got bounced buy a 109, who shot my instruments out. And i got genuwinely mad at the bugger, not because i got hit, but because i knew i would now have to navigate all the way home, from the middel of nowhere, with no instruments, which is a real pain in the butt!
Out of all my years of flying this sim, on and offline, i dont think id have ever been so into the game, that i would be genuinely p'od, that i lost my compass in a fight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif not because he was going x mph faster then he should have, or climbed y f/s more then he did, but because i lost my compass http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

beautiful game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bearcat99
10-25-2005, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Great post Jumoschwanz.

Flying full real and not seeing anything for an hour or so might not be everyone's cup of tea. What makes it better for me in that situation is that you know that the other guy is just like you, i.e. deadly serious!!


I can only take the FI environment for so long.... but it does indeed have it's place. Perhaps if I did it more online I would enjoy it more.. but I hate flying around for 20 minutes only to die in a few seconds. The funny part is.... offline I fly with FI settings.. sometimes I even turn off the hudlog window. But I guess the whol "you dont know where the h@ll he is" factor is what makes online FI flying so intense..

Arm_slinger
10-25-2005, 10:15 AM
I'll agree with this. it's quite often I end a mission with the shakes of adrenaline, covered in a cold sweat, stiff and a bit tired.

A very very memorable experience with this feeling was a TAC mission i did with my squad (242Sqn) the VOL boys, 336 and a couple of others.

Myself and my wingman, a moderatly experience pilot went ahead of a huge formation of Vals who were tasked with sinking a carrier. During the escort mission, flying ahead of the formation in our zero's, we encounted three dots coming right at us. Straight away my hands started to sweat, i gripped the throttle and stick tighter, and felt my body generally gear up for a fight. A bit of fear was there too, as a Zero is near on a rice cake with wings.

Anyway, my wingie and I broke round and followed them in and chased them in amoung the Val formation- dodgy LOT's of friendly tracer fire and aircraft. The three wildcats forgot about us and we were able to get two of them, a Val getting the third.

After this minor scuffle I went back up front a few bullets and shells lighter, and a bit sweatier than i was earlier. Calming my grip a bit, and getting the blood back in my hands I set up the escort again. keeping my eyes peeled and head on a swivel, we progressed onto the carrier.

Started to pick up flak, when about 6 or 7 dots appeared 12 o clock level- back to tight hands and a clenched arsehole! making sure my wingie wa with me I order the two of us in and make the Vals aware of heavy enemy presence. Diving in I latch onto a wildcat, only for one to sit on my tail and have a go, breaking left i call for my wingman to help. Over Team speak, i get the delightful sound of "Ok im on him" followed by the not so delightful " Oh sh*t i need help i need help!!" It's only a game, but i went cold, I wrenched my zero even tighter into the turn in the effort to save my wingman. I found him and got a quick burst off to get the wildcat off of his tail.

BANG BANG THUMP!- .50's tore into my plane, derry rolling i switch course and turn again and see a wild cat flying in front of me, i have a quick line up and put some cannon rounds square on the cockpit- two wildcats down.

After this I cant remember as everything was a mess of trying to survive. I lost my wingman and was desperatly trying to help him out, his cried for help ringing through my headphones.

Adrenaline by this time is sky high!, im breathing hard, im calling out desperatly for help, other member os the squad are asking for help, the Val pilots are calling out fighters, Japanese voices scream out, my wingman screems out again. The transmissions are awash with calls and cries- mostly mine and my wingman as we talk, or rather shout to each other- the strain and fear evident in our voices.

During the the fight for existance I got two other wildcats and numerous holes in me. My canopy was shot to bits, holes in the fuselarge, the wings and god knows where else. And still i was getting hit. Each hit making me flinch. Just one round in a fuel tank would end it for me.

Among the chaos, i hear my wingman has had to bail. A pang of guilt hits me for not helping him, but instead of a upset voice, i hear one full of beans- he couldn't believe the atmosphere this mission had generated! He was so taken in by it, as was I when I could breath again.

The fight over I turned for home, i realised I have a wounded rice cake to land on a carrier, and a wounded pilot. On top of that my arms ached and could hardly hold the stick.

With a last effort I lined up and managed to get down without loosing the gear. Breathing a massive sigh of relieve and resting my arms I waited for the mission to end.

I spoke to my wingie and we were both full of adrenaline, saying this was the best experience yet etc etc. Next i hear my CO saying for us to join the other channel. "What channel?" I ask. "The main channel" being his reply. It turned out my wingman and I were so **** vocal that we had to be moved so the others could speak.

Moving back the channel was the same- full of chatter and adrenaline as we all expressed our excitment. The rest of the squad then had fun with us two, and congratulated us two on our efforts and verbal, saying us two added greatly to the experience.


Sure things may not be right, people might not like certain things etc etc. But no one can deny that this game does not grip them at times. The immersion is fantastic. I get down a bit when a squad member is killed or bails out. It's disheartening to see our allies get ripped apart in bombers. You can feel the urgency to climb as hard as possible to intercept bombers.

There is so much the sim does, and quite frankly it does all of it bloody well

A major thanks to Oleg and 1C

Airmail109
10-25-2005, 03:29 PM
Ive loved il2 for years and still do, the adrenalin has gone after 4 years of flying it though....now every kill is like another....just a "meh"...im gonna leave il2 alone for a few weeks and come back. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Slater_51st
10-25-2005, 03:34 PM
Love that story Arm_Slinger! I've never had anything quite like that, but I've had some intense squad moments online. Really, the details can make this game so awesome.

Even in QMB once, I took a 190 against 4 B-17s. I managed to single one out and rip him up pretty good. It was then I noticed that I could attack from any angle ont he right side of the bomber as only the top gunner and left waist gunner were still alive in the bomber. It was downright erie watching the bomber, then realizing the pilot was dead too and it was headed straight for a mountain. The 2 surviving gunners kept shooting the whole way in.

Another time in an offline campaign, I was in a 109 F2 chasing 4 TB-3s over our base. I was rapidly closing in on one I'd damaged earlier, when all the sudden, the sky caught fire, and there was flak(freindly) everywhere. Within 10 seconds, both me and the TB-3 were dewinged and headed towards the ground. Very very cool, except for the whole getting shot down thing, heheh.

S! SLate

Jumoschwanz
10-26-2005, 12:17 AM
The only time online kills get to be a non-event for me is on a arcade type of server where eveyone is flying in a small area, and everyone knows where everyone else is.

The realistic settings for me are kind of like fishing. I will get a big tank of fuel, go way up high, just short of leaving a vapor trail, and start trolling for a hit! Just like fishing, it can start to get so your mind wanders and you are lulled, then you see the pole or bobber move and you almost jump out of your seat!
What you see in this case is a dot, or a tracer, or maybe you think you hear an engine noise or a hit on your plane, and it is time to go from idle to wide open throttle.
The other night I was going through a tank of fuel up high like this. I saw two dots that looked like they were in a good position to investigate, so I moved the throttle up and went into a shallow dive toward them. It seemed like it was taking a long time to close on them with the speed I was going and the initial altitude advantage I thought I had. I figured they were heading dead away from me at a high cruising speed. Finally they began to take some shape, I hit "Page Down" for a telescopic view and rats! it was a couple of B-25s. They had looked closer than they were when I started the chase because they were so big. Rats, becuase I was in a 109E, not the best plane for taking down a B-25, as it's ammo is limited, and it only takes a few hits from the gunner to oil the windscreen and sour the engine to the point were I might not even be able to match the speed they can keep.
But I was still closing in my shallow dive, at around 500km/hr, when ahead and to my right about a kilo and a half another craft pops up suddenly, I had to make a split second decision to continue straight at the bombers, my original target, or break to the right and check out the new bogie, I decide to break right because the bogie is obviously a single engine job, it is either another friendly chasing the bombers, or an escort.
Behind it now and slightly below, closing fast, I again momentarily hit the Page Down and see what I am pretty sure is a SpitVb, with the single scoop underneath to one side.
Now the tension is climbing, as this is a dangerous craft to a 109E, I have a speed advantage but not a huge one, and if I botch the shot, he may have a good chance to pull up and make a stalling shot at me with all those da mn guns the Spit has, and his very good E retention. With not much time to spare at all I get the crosshairs on the biggest part of the small, dead-six target and pull the trigger. I see some good hits with a few cannon rounds and the Spit instantly goes into a split-S manuever. This is fine with me, I stick to my plan, I do not chase it down at all, but go straight ahead and up, then break a bit and take a look. I can see the spit below about 6-700 meters , trailing fuel and smoke, wondering what to do next. I just watch, wondering if he is going to go vertical at me and fire. He doesn't, he starts his way down and toward his home base, which I am not really that far from.
Being a lone-wolf pilot, I begin to get whatever altitude back I have lost, and start to look around to see if my volley of fire at the spit has attracted the attention of more single engine craft. I have done my job, the Spit is hurt badly and is out of action, and also an easy target with the long trail of vapor and smoke it has behind it marking it's location, I can still see it going down and down, then it dissapears under a cloud.
I am far from base and down to a quarter tank, I turn home. The "enemy aircraft destroyed" comes up on the HUD, at the same time the chat bar announces someone has landed. The Spit has made it back to base. Good for him. I have been there many times, landing after being hit, with an ill-handling plane and an oily windscreen, and I know he feels relief and a sense of accomplishment. And so do I, I can go back to the rythm, quietly scanning the sky from 7000 meters alt. Heading toward home having done some part in the fight for control of the airspace.
I get more fuel and go back up, I bounce a P-40 and take off it's wing, and do the same to another Spit. I am bounced myself by yet another Spit, and get in a spinning turning contest from 5000 meters to sea level, where I crash into the water. I am beat and it is late, I disconnect and head to bed.


Jumoschwanz

Udidtoo
10-26-2005, 01:14 AM
I really get a kick out of how this game can make you painfully aware of "Pride cometh before a fall"

Last Saturday I was RTB after a wild but unsuccessful coop. After jumping a flight of bombers at middle height we had in turn been set on by 4 G2's or G6's and then soon after by 4 more 190's.

Out numbered we still needed to take those bombers out to get a mission success. One -HH- got a couple bombers, another -HH- feeling a case of the Sour Mash blues took another Ju out by merging planes but that left at least 9 more unmolested heading for their drop.

Fighters that had been staying close to protect the jabbos now were free to pay more attention to me and proceeded to do so and it was one of those near perfect engagements. Sometimes even if your so so in talent everything can go your way and after about 6 minutes I was heading for home and looking for survivors on the horn.

No contact, everyone is down and I'm not thrilled because if there was a red won message I missed it but I know I did what I could as lead intercept. We tied up all eight fighters and I'm certain I saw my wing take out 2 planes. To much happening but I think they were both 109's?? maybe...ya, I dropped 4 190's and I know for sure I sent 2 messers home smoking.

Chest is beginning to puff a bit now. Damit, I wanted that Red Won. I don't care if I shot up the whole Luft back there, means nothing without the Won flashing...but dang was I hot....feeling better about it now, ya man that inverted snap, instant blaze was awesome. Dud I Rock......BLAME BLAME BLAME says the roar of a canon way to close and dead 6. Only that thing being so loud and some poor gunnery saved me from that 1st pass. If they had just came with guns I wouldn't have been jolted awake and they could have corrected aim. See reminiscing and pats on your own back are better low and slow because home base is right over there and 6 + 2 makes 8 right, no Lufties here, just one smooth Ace.....who's self congratulatory goof off almost ended a really good fight. They were both shot up and even though they took away some lift on my port they were to damaged for much besides running down one stupid pilot basking in his own glow long enough to forget the unforgivable CHECK 6

They turned that into an even better fight because I needed a reminder that who ever the pilot was who's often quoted about how It only took a good pilot 3 seconds to come from nowhere so you better look around every 2 or you were good as dead. I've been trying to fly PC flight simms for quite few years now and with no externals, no icons there is none better IMO than this one at making you keep you head on a swivel or teaching you that if you get stupid for what ever reason someone will be happy to correct your attitude.

What's that you always say Quazi? "Dam I luv this game"

Capt.LoneRanger
10-26-2005, 01:25 AM
Thanks!

You restored my faith - reading the boards the last weeks and month, I really got the impression I was alone thinking like this. Good to see I'm not.

No matter what the changes are, THIS is still the most realistic and immersive sim out there and I get thrilled each time I find myself in the cockpit, starting the engine and I still feel relieved everytime I get home in one piece.

bazzaah2
10-26-2005, 02:49 AM
good post, it's easy to forget amidst all the whining and pedantry that this sim/game can really get to you and can provide something a little beyond entertainment.

Even the new AI can give you a real buzz like that and, dare I say, I've had some great fights offline post patch.

I still get a great feeling of satisfaction, relief sometimes, when I touch down, even with a knockabout on QMB.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-26-2005, 03:02 AM
Yep, I have to admit that it has it's moments.

In a co-op the other day, I'm following a bnz'ing Dora in a P47D. I started my run when he was just starting his bnz on some victim and began closing, from his low 6, as he went nearly vertical. For a moment I thought, 'this looks like a drag and bag' so I checked the mirror (my make up was still perfect), and all around...then I quickly flicked the rudder to check my 6 again. Looking back at the target, he's still nearly vertical and obviously hasn't spotted me so I begin to squeeze the trigger at around 300m distance. Just as I'm thinking 'got ya', there are 3 loud bangs and I look left and right to see I've no wings any more...

Sneaky 109 had come up, probably from my blindspot at low 6, and spoilt the day.

'Impeccable timing', I typed into the chatbar.

Then, in another co-op, I fill a La5FN with 1 seconds worth of fire from short distance (200m) with a 190A5 (only had inner cannons left) and saw many hits to it; tail, fuselage, wingroots. I pass it, expecting to see fire/damage but it isn't and it eventually catches up with me and takes my wing clean off with 2 thudding hits.

The two extremes of Il-2.

Ta,
norris

trumper
10-26-2005, 03:34 AM
Being in a friendly squad and talking on T/S makes this sim for me,and Armslinger,i remember you and your wingie taking over the airwaves LOL http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PBNA-Boosher
10-26-2005, 08:42 AM
IL2 combined with TS = enough to give anyone their daily rush. Nothing beats a huge furball up high.

I remember I was on Warclouds a long time ago (this was before my server wouldn't let me join) and I was in a Fw-190D. I normally flew red but the teams were uneven, so....

I climbed to a medium level of 4000 meters and looked for enemy planes, 5 mins. later, there they were. A formation of 4 B-25's on the deck, making their way towards their targets. It was such a thrill to spot them, I remember diving down so fast I almost broke the Dora. I ripped through the first B-25 voraciously, it was burning from all its tanks and 1 engine was gone. I was doing about 730kph at this point, so I zoomed right back up. Then I died.

A Spitfire pilot had climbed right up underneath me and in my fury to attack the bombers, I never noticed him.

Even better was my first mission EVER on Warclouds. I was in a Bf-109G-6 over Normandy. I was flying about the same height, 4000 meters, I was jumped by 2 P-38's and a P-51C. I got hammered hard, but my plane held. I was jinking, twisting, turning, I could swear my wings were warping. I had so many holes in my plane I couldn't count them. (The DM in this game rocks) I was donefore by the time we had climbed to 6000 meters in combat. I had shot away only one of the P-38's, who broke away after I knocked off one of his engines with a 20mm round.

So there I was, defenseless, My 109 was still armed, the guns still worked, as did all my controls, but my wings, the fuselage, the engine was toast. I remember shutting of the cockpit lights and listening. It was so quiet. I was now gliding as best I could. It was a 20 mile distance to shore from where I was. I didn't know if I could make it but I was going to try. The quiet was suddenly disturbed by a Merlin engine, that P-51! He was still trying to shoot me down! I had my lights on, I was flashing them, break off, break off! I'm no threat to you! He just kept shooting. I barrel rolled and forced an overshoot. I was so exhilarated! I flipped a lucky shot off in the P-51's direction with what was left of my ammo. the 1/2 second burst did it's job. I meant to give myself enough time to get down safely, but instead the burst hit his merlin engine, which seized up and started to burn. As I celebrated I flew back on course. A P-38 found me then. But instead of shooting me down, the pilot escorted me all the way back. I had no idea how, but my 109 managed the 20 mile glide over the channel back to Normandy's beaches. That P-38 stayed with the until i belly landed. It was one of the biggest rushes this game ever gave me. After all that, after ALL that, I was still alive.

Thx to BSS_Cuda. He was that P-38 pilot.

Maraz_5SA
10-26-2005, 10:09 AM
I remember one of my first coop missions in the VOW2 online war. We were Bf.109F-4s and had to protect an airfield from Russian attack aircraft. We patrolled unevently for some 15-20 minutes. Then at some time we saw flak, one of us sighted the incoming bogeys and informed all via Teamspeak. They were at low height. We all dived down to attack them, I heard the voices of all other pilots attacking their target. I had an IL-2 in my sight and hit him badly but he could run away. I climbed and saw an I-16 behind my tail at some distance, I called for help and a mate cleared my six. All of a sudden, the enemies were nowhere to be seen, all disappeared. Some of them had been shot down, others were simply running away for their life after dropping their bombs. All action had lasted two or three minutes.

I remember reading war accounts of how suddenly action began, and how suddenly it ended. This mission (and others I flew) was just like in those war accounts.

Another mission I remember was a bombing mission in a He.111, takeoff at night, long trip towards the target (Malta), sighted with first dawn light, searchlights and enemy fighters around, I dropped hastily my bombs (and even hit something!), then the long run towards base, eagerly looking around, fearing to see the deadly enemy fighters.

I just can't tell how realistic and immersive some of these coops are. After playing one of these missions and going to bed, I just cannot sleep for some time, too much adrenaline still running... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Of course you sometimes find the idiot who is disregarding mission objectives and just vulches over your airbase, but that's not very
often, luckily.

Maraz

TacticalYak3
10-26-2005, 01:02 PM
Like the praise for what the IL-2 series can provide with regards to realism, but the general setting and the selection of game options really don't achieve a great deal of realism.

While all sorts of mission types no doubt occurred during WW2, what was the norm most times was that pilots flew in flights with wingmen. They usually flew the same planes (for escort/bombing/patrol), and had a specific objective/role.

I really don't want to detract from the posts in this thread, but really do feel historical simulation is and always has been about more then the sum of the parts we constantly debate here at these forums.

Online with strangers can be a lot of fun. And experiences like those described in this thread are great. But I personally can never remember ever seeing more than maybe two planes flying together in formation (and those usually two squad members). I guess that's something next to impossible to create on an adhoc basis, unless everyone is on comms and really wants to participate as a team. Heck even when I enjoyed some fantastic COOP missions hosted by Ivan few seemed to hang with the group, let alone see the formation of flights.

Not wishing to cast stones, folks should be free to play the game anyway they wish I suppose, just believe thoughts concerning realistic/historic simulation must firstly deal with plausible missions and historic plane sets as mentioned earlier in this thread, but further the manner how folks fly together (i.e., formation/wingman flying) is critical to the immersion and historic simulation. Afterwards, we can then discuss various gaming options and what not.

Anyway, these comments are in regard to historical simulation and not to any particular post/person in this thread. The thread starter touched on some of these points already, and I certainly support his praise of the tools available to us in the IL-2 series (plus certain other third-party programs).

Regards,
TS!

danjama
10-26-2005, 08:19 PM
Theres always someone out to ruin it for us eh fellas? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

TacticalYak3
10-27-2005, 08:23 AM
Ok, I guess mate. But how could one explaining about the awesomeness of Niagara Falls take away the joy of someone else sharing his thrill over a local, smaller waterfall? Both folks are thrilled.

My only point is that there are degrees of immersion folks pursue with IL-2 with regards to simulating WW2 combat. Folks/squads who endeavour to play the game in this manner know the joy I am talking about.

If this is a whine or a distraction from the discussion on historic simulation my apologies folks.

TS!

mynameisroland
10-27-2005, 09:52 AM
On Monday evening/Tuesday early morning I was flying on a new Channel42 map. It was the 1st time id flown the map and I jumped in to a Fockewulf A4 and took off, I knew that the Spitfire Vb's on this map had a 2000m airstart so I wasnt wasting time. While climbing south west another Fw 190 took of and formed up. although my TS was down we had flown before and cooperated using chatbar. We both headed north over the coast of France out to the Channel when I spotted a bandit slightly higher and off to my 2 o clock. I closed radiator and banked to intercept informing my wingman of my intentions. I didnt climb up , instead opted to keep my E and climb shallowly. The Spitfire saw me and turned so that we were on a head on course. The Spitfire pilot ( a good guy who posts here) after identifying us as a pair of Fw 190s wisely opted out of a head on shoot up and instead made a jinking dive. Due to the lightness of the controls of the Fw at 500km/h or so I managed to get a snap shot hitting the Spitfire with 6 rounds taking out its rudder and aerilons.

Without following Spit in to the ground we both carried on on our sweep. Encountering another spitfire five minutes or so later. This time we had the altitude advantage so we made a diving attack both of us missing the Spitfire. Rather than turning to fight we extended away using our superior energy and zoom climbed up to 1500 m above the Spitfire, performed a split S then dove back down. This time I got some good hits snapping off the Spitfires wing.

Upon resumption of our sweep we gained altitude and leveled off at 3500m or so. We carried on like that for another 20 min until AAA killed my engine dead (pity as I had plenty of ammo and id taken 75% fuel) and my wingman was running on fumes. I belly landed in the channel and he made it back to base. We both accumulated 5 kills each and used our aircraft properly each taking turns on bandits and providing mutual cover. It was great. 1st time Ive had the pleasure of flying online in a scenario/planeset that accurately represents the Fw 190's true impact when it was introduced in WW2. Normally Im stuck being chased around by La5's or Lagg3's which magically seem to be faster than the Fw A4 and bleed less E.

Just to prove it wasnt a turkey shoot I then switched sides and flew Spitfire Vb which is my least favourite Spitfire but I felt guilty after having had my fun in the A4. I managed to set a Fw 190 on fire (theres a surprise... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) then had to go to bed. So I decided to belly land my Spitfire next to a little French cottage. Unfortunately the lie of the land was decieving to say the least and my Spit was drawn towards the building. I applied full rudder and succeeded in diverting my Spit form the building only to hit a pot hole and explode!

**** ending to a great night and a reminder that there are some annoying bugs in sim - like my explosion for no apparent reason - but also some great immersion too.

TacticalYak3
10-27-2005, 10:11 AM
To say my immersion is better than yours Jumoschwanz is pointless. To point out that members in the IL-2 community attempt, and that's all it is an attempt, to simulate as best as they can how pilots normally conducted themselves during WW2 is, however, exactly what I am endeavouring to do in this thread concerning the €œrealistic aspect of this sim.€

There indeed are degrees or levels that people pursue with regards to immersion/realistic simulation. Has nothing to do with comparing our perception of what is fun, nor should it invite values being ascribed to our gaming experiences. And I certainly can€t understand why my comments have solicited such criticism.

While I know of many more regimental IL-2 Squads in our community who indeed spend a lot of time training and working on flight development/wingman tactics, I also have never been interested in dedicating that much personal time. With a family and career I have more rewarding things to pursue.

However, after some years enjoying IL-2, exploring everything from lone wolf flying in various dogfight servers, to enjoying offline campaigns with various game settings and scenarios, I lately find myself really enjoying to learn how to fly with others in my squad some resemblance of formation flying and attempting to use some wingman tactics under the direction of a Flight Leader. For me, and those involved, this is a lot of fun and something we all realized was generally the methodology used in WW2. All this is being done still in a relaxed manner that our squad promotes, and only one session a week as we all work and have kids.

Understand that if you are going to discuss the €œRealistic Aspect of this Sim€ that folks like me will also like the opportunity to share our thoughts and experiences regarding this matter. No where in my posts have I attacked anyone else€s point of view concerning immersion/realistic simulation. To criticize/attack what folks like me enjoy in pursing their level of realism is to ignore the reality of how combat missions were generally conducted in WW2, not to mention to invalidate a segment of the community that enjoys these aspects (i.e., flight leader, formation flying, wingman tactics). Sadly I believe we both share the same enthusiasm for the game and yet we find ourselves in disagreement.

Next time just mention in your thread that only the exact same thoughts/opinions are permitted to be posted. I would be happy to discuss things like immersion and historic simulation with folks willing to consider a broader perspective without feeling threaten by differing opinions. Never looking to argue here as there are many more pleasant things to do in life like enjoy flying in IL-2.

Regards,
TacticalS!

Estocade85
10-27-2005, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
The realistic settings for me are kind of like fishing. I will get a big tank of fuel, go way up high, just short of leaving a vapor trail, and start trolling for a hit! Just like fishing, it can start to get so your mind wanders and you are lulled, then you see the pole or bobber move and you almost jump out of your seat!
Jumoschwanz

So true! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

danjama
10-27-2005, 01:01 PM
Jumo that is so sarcastic it is funny! I would only like to criticize this:-

" Online with strangers can be a lot of fun. And experiences like those described in this thread are great. But I personally can never remember ever seeing more than maybe two planes flying together in formation (and those usually two squad members)."

Maybe you personally should open your eyes! Are you seriously telling me that you have never just gone onto a server, any server, and paired up with a complete stranger. If not yourself, then you have never seen two strangers or in many cases more, working together? Maybe you should spend the little time a week you have to play this game on looking for these people because believe me they are there! I am one of them. The first thing i do on a server is look for a budy to pair up with and i always get someone. Maybe you are flying offline with AI and not realising it?! I will gladly team up with you and fly, thats what i do. Maybe it will help to open your mind and your eyes a little, and leave your negative thoughts out of interesting, nostalgic threads like this one. Heck, u might even feel th need to make a positive reply! Fingers crossed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Monty_Thrud
10-27-2005, 01:03 PM
How much can i sue Oleg for?, if i claim he caused Post Traumatic Stress Disorder...i need a new PC to run BoB...

...N-N-N-N-Nothing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

TacticalYak3
10-27-2005, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Most often this sim is used as another computer game, but it can offer some simulation, and the feature of this sim that may be the most realistic is it's ability, when used properly, to simulate some of the experience of a WWII combat mission.

My primarily point has been to suggest the manner we fly - formation/wingman and so forth - is closely associated with achieving this goal.

These were your opening remarks and believed the basis of discussion.

Anyway, you are completely right. I'm completely wrong mate. Sorry for any hard feelings.

TS!

Jumoschwanz
10-27-2005, 02:02 PM
One of the most impressive dogfight servers for coordination is Spits_vs_109s. The squad that runs it gets on and will get a half a dozen B-25s, with escorts together and make a high alt bombing run, and they are good!

Next subject:

You know, one of the only reasons I ever consider for taking a break from this sim, is I do suffer from high blood pressure. I wonder if it would go down if I used the time I spend flying this sim in virtual combat to relax and catch some more shut-eye. I get into it a bit too much.

Once I was in the middle of a busy dogfight and my wife picks that time to come up behind me in my chair and get affectionate. I snapped at her. Yep, it was doghouse time for me. But my god couldn't she see I was fighting for my life? The sweat beading on my brow and my wide eyes?

I don't think she will do that again, but if she does I hope I can just snap out of it, let them shoot me down, and pay attention to what is important in the real world.

The persona we create for ourselves online and in these forums and in the community period, seems to take a life of it's own, and like an evel twin, does things we would rather not do.

Jumoschwanz

danjama
10-27-2005, 02:43 PM
Its true, maybe i should call my girlfriend! What's it been now dan, 2, 3 months? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

vanjast
10-27-2005, 02:51 PM
Ah.. the reality of stressing out over a sim, wot a pleasure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I had a funny one during an on-line DF map (190vsP-51). There was 5-a-side and there I was cruising at 2000m in my fav 190. I'd been flying for 10 min and had seen no-one. Everyone was asking "where is everyone ?" on TS. No-one was giving away their positions.

Then I saw a rotte of 2 bugs on my screen about 1000m above me in the distance, so I sneaked in between the clouds to get in below and on 6. Half way up I see another bug at about the same height as the other 2, but he's seen me but looks as if he's not sure who I am.

I change course to the new threat and we go around in a circle with him, some 500m above. Well you know the 190 has carp forward view and I loose him. I keep my speed up kicking L/R rudder every few ticks to check my 6. I saw nothing and he managed to get in behind me.

So there I was cruising, very tense as I've now got 3 of them close by, and I see nothing. I hear this 'bbrrrrrppp' in the distance.

It's amazing how time slows down, or when you're really on an adrenalin trip. After hearing that sound I went through a few thought processes (WOW).
What is that sound...
It sounds far away...
It's is gunfire....and it's NOT and FW190..

Stick hard left and back into stomache. True's s.h1T there's that P-51 on my tail..'bbbrrrrrrp' again... and I pulling hard.
The whole story is in this movie (I was recording)
http://www.vanjast.com/images/Elite.avi (53MB)

So there we went through all these moves. Red team were talking non-stop on TS, trying to get a fix on us 2. At the end of it they asked who the hell was breathing so heavily over TS.

It was me, I was so freaked out that I'd gone into a pattern of heavy breathing while I was pulling virtual G's, and had not realised that my TS had picked it up.

I owned up a few minutes later, when I'd calmed down. Then I turn down my mic sensitivity.
How many nights I had to stop playing because I was shaking so much I could not hold my Stick still.

Don't do Drugs ----> Fly IL2
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Arm_slinger
10-27-2005, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
One of the most impressive dogfight servers for coordination is Spits_vs_109s. The squad that runs it gets on and will get a half a dozen B-25s, with escorts together and make a high alt bombing run, and they are good!



My squadron (242Sqn) did this on the same server. There were about 8 of us in a rough combat box shaped formation at around 100 feet. That was great fun!- seeing the enemy dive in and take shots, the gunners firing back, moving around in the formation to cover each other and bring as many guns to bear. Surficed to say none of us made it to the target, buit alot of fun was had. We were thanked by the blue team for creating the situation and something interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif