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DS9Janitor
04-27-2005, 10:45 AM
I have a question about the fuselage roundel on the Finnish aircraft. In all the pictures I€ve seen from the time of conflict between Finland and Russia during WWII, the fuselage roundel was a form of the swastika in blue. Why is the roundel used IL2 the concentric circle design like England except in blue and white?

Atomic_Marten
04-27-2005, 10:56 AM
That is post war Finnish markings. Swastika is forbidden.

DS9Janitor
04-27-2005, 11:12 AM
Let me see if I understand your response. I live in a country where the term €œpolitical correctness€ is the keyword of the times, but you€re saying you can€t use actual historical markings on a game because an emblem is illegal?

LLv34_Stafroty
04-27-2005, 11:18 AM
Von rosen Gross actually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif different than what germans used.

csThor
04-27-2005, 11:23 AM
The reason is simple:

In Germany the swastika and all similar symbols are forbidden. Since Ubisoft has decided not to produce specific versions of the game for the different countries but a single version for all countries you won't see the swastika in the normal game.

But:

There are programs as Il2Mat Manager which allow to "activate" the swastika (both on finnish and german AC).

mole_boy
04-27-2005, 09:11 PM
airwarfare.com has a program called "haken cross" which you download to give you swastikas on german and finnish aircraft. I think it is in essentials.

VW-IceFire
04-27-2005, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by DS9Janitor:
Let me see if I understand your response. I live in a country where the term €œpolitical correctness€ is the keyword of the times, but you€re saying you can€t use actual historical markings on a game because an emblem is illegal?
There are some countries where the symbol is illegal...Germany being the prime one. So its a legal issue...and there are issues with its use in other countries that aren't legal so much as socialized.

Fair enough.

So they do have a patch that you can enable the correct markings if you so choose. But its not official...

Only version that has them enabled is the Russian version. And there is not the stigma attached in Russia so its not as big of a deal.

anasteksi
04-30-2005, 02:14 PM
I hate that finnish swastika is allways messed with german nazi swastika. Finnish swastika was much older "luck-symbol" of von Rosen. those crosses are two different things http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I cant understand why finnish swastika is forbidden in some countries.

Jazz-Man
04-30-2005, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by anasteksi:
I hate that finnish swastika is allways messed with german nazi swastika. Finnish swastika was much older "luck-symbol" of von Rosen. those crosses are two different things http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I cant understand why finnish swastika is forbidden in some countries.

This is a topic that crops up every 6 months. The swastica is forbidden, it's against the law. Regardless of the fact that the Finns call it one thing, and the Germans another, it's the same symbol in a different color. They may not mean the same thing, but it's the image, not the meaning that was outlawed. I don't think anyone debates that the Hakenkruez and the Von Rosen's cross represent different things.

Video games are considered games, not art or history, and as such, they are prohibited from displaying swasticas.

Il-2 MAT Manager, Il-2 Stab and a number of other programs can enabled the swastica for you.

Grendel-B
05-02-2005, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Jazz-Man:
The swastica is forbidden, it's against the law.

A huge error here. Against the law? Which law? Whose law? Is there a world wide law banning the swastika? No. It is illegal only in: Germany, France, Italy, Israel, Hungary. But even in Germany it is legal in historical regard, schooling, art, science etc.

Swastika is legal symbol in 99 countries of 100, including... Britain, Finland, Nordic Countries, all of Asia, Japan, China, Russia, USA, Canada and so on.

Its stupid to say the swastica symbol is against the law, because it ain't. It is only against the law of a few countries, but completely legal and still largely used in many nations, even in whole cultures and continents.

3.JG51_BigBear
05-02-2005, 07:17 PM
UBI probably just doesn't want to deal with it. People have a lot of strong feelings about that symbol and restricting it from all versions of the game ensures that no copy containing the symbol will ever end up in a country whose citizens have decided that they do not whish to view it.

GerritJ9
05-06-2005, 06:35 AM
If you visit a German museum where WW2 aeroplanes are displayed (Deutsches Museum in Munich for instance), not one of the planes on display has a Hakenkreuz on the tail. Historical accuracy is not the issue here- German law forbids the use of the Hakenkreuz under any circumstances including historical accuracy, it's as simple as that.

CKY_86
05-06-2005, 06:55 AM
if the swastika is forbidden in many countries then so be it.

just think your self lucky that there are programs that enable the swastika http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

csThor
05-06-2005, 07:07 AM
Gerrit - I have yet to see a swastika-less plane in a german museum. Historical displays in museums do not fall under 86 which prohibits the use of the swastika. Art, historical documentation and education can use the swastika - PC games are not considered art, but toys.

GerritJ9
05-06-2005, 08:26 AM
Thor, I have seen several pics of German aeroplanes on display in Germany such as the Me262 in the Deutsches Museum and not one of them had the Hakenkreuz on its tail. Perhaps things may have changed recently in this respect?

Werre_Fsck
05-06-2005, 09:39 AM
Hehe when we get IL2 - early years edition, Latvians will start to complain :-)

http://www.flag.de/FOTW/flags/lv%5Eair.html

darkhorizon11
05-09-2005, 10:50 AM
I just find it all suprising that its not allowed in the game yet many in this forums have sigs with swastikas in them...

F19_Ob
05-09-2005, 03:08 PM
Still sensitive stuff the svastika...

But a few things about it.
Both the Finnish svastika and the german one and most others in othercountries has it for good luck and thats why it was so popular during the centuries from asia to europe.
Its generally known as "svastika" regardles of nationality these days although it has had many names historically.

I like my planes to be historically accurate but it doesn't bother me that the sim lacks the svasticas.
The svastica enabler programs are there for anyone who likes to add them. So anyone can do as they will.

Other than that it's interesting to note that the russian red star and the american symbols and the brittish roundel wasn't/isn't popular in some countries under their control either.

a few thoughts...

MajorBloodnok
05-12-2005, 06:46 AM
Please enlighten me as to which countries find the British roundel offensive and/or have laws that prohibit it.