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Codger1949
09-03-2008, 06:14 AM
I just got kicked from a server for B&Z which frankly perplexes me. There was nothing in the rules prohibiting it. The fellow who gave me the boot, however, did make several comments which I guess should have been a clue, I suppose, like things to the effect " you don't like dogfighting", "the fight's down here" and finally, "b&z is a waste of time" and then the kick and I can't get back on. Heck, I bailed out and was going to rejoin with a ki43 and give him his turn fight. Never got that chance.

I find this kind of reaction just a tad excessive. Afterall, there aren't THAT many dogfight games going on anymore.

It was just me and him. He was flying that loverly La-7 and I took the 51. I thought that would be fun and challenging. I guess not.

Yeah, I know I'm whining and it's his server. But if you hate the tactic so much, put it in the rules or at least give a warning. What really kills me is vulching the airfield and shooting guys down with their wheels barely off the ground is just A ok, things I refuse to do on a DF server because, In my opinion, those are cheap kills. What kind of challenge is shooting some guy down who has no speed or altitude?

It's just disconcerting being kicked for using a valid tactic, that's all. Some people should mature a little.

Boosher
09-03-2008, 06:17 AM
There are servers like that, Codger, and yeah, it doesn't make much sense to me, but hey: We're not the ones paying for the server, which means that it shouldn't abide by our rules. That particular server is how a certain group of people like to have fun. If they believe B&Z ruins their fun, why do we have the right to oppose them?

We've had plenty of these discussions before on this forum. The end result has always been the same. Find a server or a group of guys (ie, squad) that share the settings you like and stick with it. Everyone is entitled to their own fun.

Bearcat99
09-03-2008, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by Codger1949:
I just got kicked from a server for B&Z which frankly perplexes me. There was nothing in the rules prohibiting it. The fellow who gave me the boot, however, did make several comments which I guess should have been a clue, I suppose, like things to the effect " you don't like dogfighting", "the fight's down here" and finally, "b&z is a waste of time" and then the kick and I can't get back on. Heck, I bailed out and was going to rejoin with a ki43 and give him his turn fight. Never got that chance.

I find this kind of reaction just a tad excessive. Afterall, there aren't THAT many dogfight games going on anymore.

It was just me and him. He was flying that loverly La-7 and I took the 51. I thought that would be fun and challenging. I guess not.

Yeah, I know I'm whining and it's his server. But if you hate the tactic so much, put it in the rules or at least give a warning. What really kills me is vulching the airfield and shooting guys down with their wheels barely off the ground is just A ok, things I refuse to do on a DF server because, In my opinion, those are cheap kills. What kind of challenge is shooting some guy down who has no speed or altitude?

It's just disconcerting being kicked for using a valid tactic, that's all. Some people should mature a little.

You aren't whining.. some people just dont have the skills .. so they have to set rules to handicap their opponents.. which is all rules like thnat are.. especially in a 1 on 1 situation where botyh are starting at the same alt.

X32Wright
09-03-2008, 06:35 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/134...341094456#1341094456 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1341094456?r=1341094456#1341094456)

I am not surprised http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think I can even name this server or person http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It is sad that they cannot develop counter measures to BNZing since I have developed counter measures to TNBing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Banning fish for swimming it seems for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Feathered_IV
09-03-2008, 06:37 AM
Stay off those air-quake kiddy servers. Try Warbirds instead. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Codger1949
09-03-2008, 06:45 AM
Thanks guys. You validated my pity party, with me being the star and host. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You know, one time I even spent several weeks learning how to set up a dedicated server and oh boy was that an exercise in frustration. It was going to be a DF server with everything to make it attractive like map icons, padlock, airplane icons, stuff to blow up, close bases, one base a little farther out on each side for an airstart, everything EXCEPT open pits. What was the reaction to my gala opening? After one month of no activity I just shut it down. Nobody was interested. So I guess the bottom line is: When in Rome..."

X32Wright
09-03-2008, 06:48 AM
Thats too bad but you just need to attract the right kind of people since there are several servers out there already.

Best is still to find the right squad that likes your way of flying then find other squads that enjoys the same thing! Then you cna have a flying party http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Codger1949
09-03-2008, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Stay off those air-quake kiddy servers. Try Warbirds instead. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I tried Aces High recently. I lasted less than two weeks. Hated the FM and graphics after being spoiled by Il-2. I did like their closed pits scheme in the fighters. But unfortunately, I seemed to be spending most of my time on loooonnnggg bomber runs or manning ground guns on a base.

Codger1949
09-03-2008, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/134...341094456#1341094456 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1341094456?r=1341094456#1341094456)

I am not surprised http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think I can even name this server or person http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It is sad that they cannot develop counter measures to BNZing since I have developed counter measures to TNBing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Banning fish for swimming it seems for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Wow. I just read some of that thread. It got a lot of reaction. I guess I'll have to be more sensitive to negative comments about my tactics or something in the future because my goal, after all, is to fly, not sit in the hanger. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Xiolablu3
09-03-2008, 07:24 AM
Now, I'm usually quite an easy going chap, but this really makes me cringe.

It is NO different from having a rule saying 'no tight turns', or 'no turnfighting', no deflection shooting', or something as ridiculous as that.

Some planes excell at zoom climbs, others at climbing and diving fast. To limit everything to turning as tight as possible is just ridiculous.

Its like making everything which was in 3 dimensions into 2 dimensions.

These guys may as well go and fly some arcade game like Crimson skies. Really. As that game is more suited to what they are wanting.

Smells to me like some people cannot stand to be shot down by people who can manage energy better than them, and edit their rules accordingly.

X32Wright
09-03-2008, 07:32 AM
Then imagine being asked to:

1) Stop BNZing

2) Do not use BNZ planes

2)'Fly only TNB planes'

Yes I have been asked to do this on a server that I used to go to.

stalkervision
09-03-2008, 07:35 AM
what if you bnz a t&B bird... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Codger1949
09-03-2008, 07:36 AM
Crimson Skies. Ahh, a blast from the past and a fun arcade flyer. Too bad it sunk to the depths of obscurity, at least for online activity. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Another fun arcady flyer was Wings of War. WWI genre. It had great scenary with steep precipice cliffs you could dive down and winding, steep gorges you could maneuver. Making a server was a snap, so I did so because on most servers the planes ability was set to severe limitations. You couldn't bank steeper than 45 degrees and climb steeper than the same, as I recall. It was like driving a car except you could go up and down. So, I made a server where you could actually fly like an aerobatic plane and NOBODY joined. I guess they preferred airborne cars. So, for these guys Il-2 "arcade" would freak them out completely. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Codger1949
09-03-2008, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
what if you bnz a t&B bird... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif
Well, I can tell you what happened to me. Lol.

Wildnoob
09-03-2008, 07:45 AM
I was playing with the FW-190 in a arcade server. at least by wat I've see, the guys in this server love turnigth. I climb above them, and make some high speed firing passes on them. it was a 1942 planeset, and when they try pursuit my plane with their laGG's, LA's and Spitfires I just full open my trottle and outrun them.

one of the players tell me "oh, don't run, come dogfigth with me, I'm noob." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

also, I started to discuss with a player - he tell me : "you not gonna learn to play flying like that".

I reply it like a guy who posted some tips about using the Mustang here say : "I promisse not to use my speed advantage if you not use your turnig advantage" (of course acceptable of the FW-190 on this case).

I couldn't belive.

some people think that IL2 is a "game", not a simulator. it's because that I don't like arcade servers. people think it's a game, not a simulation of war. for me it's a war simulation, so it's not always that both sides have to use aicraft with the same performance and in the same way. the worst thing is that probably this kind of people is the same that when take aicraft such as the P-51 and FW-190 use then as turn and burn figthers and get shoot down by more nimble figthers in most times. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I don't have really nothing against those people, but it's a thing that I totally not agreed.

stalkervision
09-03-2008, 07:52 AM
Do these guys that run these servers have a clue what ww 2 air combat was all about? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Maybe they should run a Star Wars server..

Thinking about this I am reminded of a South Park episode where the boys are playing Ninga warriors/super heros or something like that and Cartman claims he has all "powers" of everyone else and basically controls the game for himself. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jayhall0315
09-03-2008, 07:59 AM
This thread is a hoot and I knew Wright would spot this one quickly. I agree with him completely and Xiolablu's comments are true as well. I know which server Wright is talking about too, and even funnier, there is now an entire squad that almost only flies the I-185 at 100 m or less of the ground and accuses anyone who kills them of cheating.

I feel your pain Codger. I was recently a green noob and didn't like BnZ simply because I liked to get right into the action with my La-7. I was too impatient to wait 2-3 min while I climbed up to 3 or 4 thousand meters to start my attack runs. Problem was, I would get one guy and then be always in danger with no energy left. Now, I just swoop down from 4000 meters tag a guy or two and climb right back up into the clouds. I dont always get the guy I am after but on the opposite face, I sometimes get 4-8 guys in one sortie with a FW 190. ... and guys that have not matured to that level yet, just get angry when someone does it to them.

Jay

Erkki_M
09-03-2008, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
I was playing with the FW-190 in a arcade server. at least by wat I've see, the guys in this server love turnigth. I climb above them, and make some high speed firing passes on them. it was a 1942 planeset, and when they try pursuit my plane with their laGG's, LA's and Spitfires I just full open my trottle and outrun them.

one of the players tell me "oh, don't run, come dogfigth with me, I'm noob." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

also, I started to discuss with a player - he tell me : "you not gonna learn to play flying like that".

I reply it like a guy who posted some tips about using the Mustang here say : "I promisse not to use my speed advantage if you not use your turnig advantage" (of course acceptable of the FW-190 on this case).

I couldn't belive.

some people think that IL2 is a "game", not a simulator. it's because that I don't like arcade servers. people think it's a game, not a simulation of war. for me it's a war simulation, so it's not always that both sides have to use aicraft with the same performance and in the same way. the worst thing is that probably this kind of people is the same that when take aicraft such as the P-51 and FW-190 use then as turn and burn figthers and get shoot down by more nimble figthers in most times. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I don't have really nothing against those people, but it's a thing that I totally not agreed.

Thats exactly why I only play on WOP servers, Warclouds and by.sturmoviks.. and Online Wars, of course.


If I'd want action, I'd buy some Unreal Tournament, Quake, CS or Call of Duty. Guess I'm repeating myself again, but those games do the arcade action part much better than IL2.

SeaFireLIV
09-03-2008, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Codger1949:
I just got kicked from a server for B&Z which frankly perplexes me. There was nothing in the rules prohibiting it. The fellow who gave me the boot, however, did make several comments which I guess should have been a clue, I suppose, like things to the effect " you don't like dogfighting", "the fight's down here" and finally, "b&z is a waste of time" and then the kick and I can't get back on. Heck, I bailed out and was going to rejoin with a ki43 and give him his turn fight. Never got that chance.

I find this kind of reaction just a tad excessive. Afterall, there aren't THAT many dogfight games going on anymore.

It was just me and him. He was flying that loverly La-7 and I took the 51. I thought that would be fun and challenging. I guess not.

Yeah, I know I'm whining and it's his server. But if you hate the tactic so much, put it in the rules or at least give a warning. What really kills me is vulching the airfield and shooting guys down with their wheels barely off the ground is just A ok, things I refuse to do on a DF server because, In my opinion, those are cheap kills. What kind of challenge is shooting some guy down who has no speed or altitude?

It's just disconcerting being kicked for using a valid tactic, that's all. Some people should mature a little.

I would`ve been the same as you before I heard of this since I would`ve found it inconceivable that anyone would be kicked for simply fighting in the historically correct manner.

This is a sad and recentish phenomenon. Any aerial dogfighting is not just about twirling in cirles, any real dogfighter knows this. Even AI 109s will try and B&Z if they can.

Now watch the pro-kick-you-for-B&Zing-lobby jump on to say it`s ok to kick for B&Zing cos it`s server rules.

Just go somewhere else.

Xiolablu3
09-03-2008, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Codger1949:
Crimson Skies. Ahh, a blast from the past and a fun arcade flyer. Too bad it sunk to the depths of obscurity, at least for online activity. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Another fun arcady flyer was Wings of War. WWI genre. It had great scenary with steep precipice cliffs you could dive down and winding, steep gorges you could maneuver. Making a server was a snap, so I did so because on most servers the planes ability was set to severe limitations. You couldn't bank steeper than 45 degrees and climb steeper than the same, as I recall. It was like driving a car except you could go up and down. So, I made a server where you could actually fly like an aerobatic plane and NOBODY joined. I guess they preferred airborne cars. So, for these guys Il-2 "arcade" would freak them out completely. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


I actually loved Crimson skies PC as well! Fantastic arcade shooter.

I actually thought of buying a cheap X Box off ebay in order to try the COnsole sequel. nybody tried it? How does it compare with the PC prequel?

I have recently bought a gamecube off ebay for Ł15 purely to play Rogue Leader http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lbuchele
09-03-2008, 08:44 AM
Codger, there is no complex explanation for what happens to you.
Siome people just don´t like to loose, that´s all.
Be a mature person and find a way to win in a humble manner and to loose with dignity doesn´t fit to every person.
Stay away from servers like that , because what he REALLY wanted but don´t has the guts to say to you was that you has seated in front of their guns in a way he can feel like a big ace.

X32Wright
09-03-2008, 10:49 AM
"what if you bnz a t&B bird... "

I would get banned for sure. I have been known to take a A6M3 or A6M5b up to 5k and above (my limit was at 12K but of course she was not so fast up there ) and fight up there. The people I was fighting with were surprised.

If you keep your energy management any TNB plane would work well but then the problem is the dive speed limit and the zoom climb limit.

For sure that server i am talking about would have me banned because I am BNZing in a Zero or I-16 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

P.FunkAdelic
09-03-2008, 11:43 AM
These people are hilarious. Basically they're children. They have no sense of how to lose. They have also targeted what they consider 'awesome' and 'wicked sick'.

But you guys are wrong. They don't think that IL-2 is a game and fail to realize its a sim. Its even worse. They don't even think its a game. Its just masturbation.

lbuchele
09-03-2008, 11:52 AM
It´s like kids playing soccer,when the owner of the ball finish the game because he can´t win the game.
"If I can´t win,nobody plays."

M_Gunz
09-03-2008, 11:56 AM
Other term is circle-jerk which describes melee (DF) servers since way back.

What happens if you don't BnZ but yoyo the mudhen instead?
My bet is that if you wax his six steadily, he's gonna make an excuse and kick you anyway.
Remember, it's his kiddie-pool to whizz in.

buzzsaw1939
09-03-2008, 12:36 PM
it would be nice if there was a list of kiddie pools so a guy doesn't have to waste his time.

Crash-Moses was working on a better way to search in HL back in march, but I think he was overwelmed and blew a cuircut breaker and has just recently and quietly returned!

And as some of you remmember, I was very worried! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

stalkervision
09-03-2008, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
"what if you bnz a t&B bird... "

I would get banned for sure. I have been known to take a A6M3 or A6M5b up to 5k and above (my limit was at 12K but of course she was not so fast up there ) and fight up there. The people I was fighting with were surprised.

If you keep your energy management any TNB plane would work well but then the problem is the dive speed limit and the zoom climb limit.

For sure that server i am talking about would have me banned because I am BNZing in a Zero or I-16 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Blahhh...a bunch of Kiddies. I tell you what I would do if I ever wanted to get into the insane multi=player arena.

Get yourself a A-20 without bombs of course and Vertical B and Z them... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

What can they say about that? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

I've done it with the Il-2 ai with 109's on my tail and the ace Ai has to be at least as good as they are. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That will show them how really bad at flying and fighting they are. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

It's called "Loop fighting" and the A-20 does it real real well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

get the one with all the front firepower. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Daiichidoku
09-03-2008, 01:55 PM
as Wright said, the zero can operate at altitude, but its slower up there...SO WHAT? its still gonna be one of the slowest around, at 100m or 10,000m

the zero CAN bnz....

but to deal with the types you described, Codger, use a zero, then watch them extend away from you, and basically start to bnz your zero.....

then you can ask them they dont stay and turn fight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

TheFamilyMan
09-03-2008, 02:32 PM
I'm a noob, but hey even I know: what good are most of the American rides (my beloved) if you are not allowed to BnZ? When I first flew P-47s and P-51 I thought, man what's wrong...these things really suck. Then I learned what energy management was about and how you became nearly untouchable (though I've yet to master that high speed gunnery).

<soap_box>
But that's not my point. I like the simulated WWII combat experience IL-2 can provide, and DF servers IMO have next to nothing to do with actual WWII air combat. No WWII pilot took off thinking "Where's that fur-ball...I'll show everyone who's best". For WWII pilots, it was about mission success and returning to base to do it again. And that is the kind of flying I do with my m8s; we're even toying with the idea "you get shot down, your evening is over" to up the ante. I jump onto the HL DF servers here and there and I find that the mindset is really not that much different than in UT2004 servers. I totally agree it's fun, but it sure ain't much more than that: WWII combat immersion? forget it!

I'd even go so far as to say it possibly dishonors WWII vets to make something into a 'fun past-time' (especially those shooter games: COD et. al.) for which they risked and lost their lives in service to their country. I honestly feel a bit guilty about this.
</soap_box>

DKoor
09-03-2008, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by lbuchele:
It´s like kids playing soccer,when the owner of the ball finish the game because he can´t win the game.
"If I can´t win,nobody plays." Happens most of the time in Hyperlobby COOP's.

SeaFireLIV
09-03-2008, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lbuchele:
It´s like kids playing soccer,when the owner of the ball finish the game because he can´t win the game.
"If I can´t win,nobody plays." Happens most of the time in Hyperlobby COOP's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No,no, not true.
I`ve only had one case where a guy who was hosting quit the entire game while we were still fighting cos he got shot down early.

Perhaps it depends on the type of co ops, since I tend to go on the more realistic difficulty ones.

On the issue of bad losers, I have known it. In my younger days we loved playing competitive games on the Amiga. One of our friends refused to play any competitive games at all. When we asked why, he said cos he didn`t like losing.

That seemed a very strange answer to me. No one likes losing, but we still have to go ahead and play anyway in the positive hope of winning. And even if you lose, you gain the experince and the fun of gaming with friends.

WTE_Galway
09-03-2008, 04:08 PM
Doesn't sound like HL has changed much http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I used to get kicked for B&Z (especially on wonder woman servers) so come back with a proper turn fight aircraft like a gladiator or P11c (love the p11c, split S while just 80m off the ground? why not) and get kicked again for flying annoying planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Apparently the cool macho thing to do is turn fight in mid or late aircraft that werent really meant for it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I_KG100_Prien
09-03-2008, 04:10 PM
Even on some of the "top notch" servers you'll find the pool ****ers, braggarts, and tool buckets.

I saw one of those "I'm better! No I'm better! Yeah well I've been playing longer than you! No you haven't! Yes I have!" arguments break out on WarClouds the other day.

stalkervision
09-03-2008, 04:27 PM
Galway
used to get kicked for B&Z (especially on wonder woman servers) so come back with a proper turn fight aircraft like a gladiator or P11c (love the p11c, split S while just 80m off the ground? why not) and get kicked again for flying annoying planes

That is too funny.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

X32Wright
09-03-2008, 04:43 PM
Also on these servers you would find that most people who owns it (and would kick u for BNZIng) flies only spits and not just any spit BUT the IXe's and 25lbs! Also the SpitVbs only for the guns. Others would fly only the Ki-84c.

Hoenire
09-03-2008, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
"what if you bnz a t&B bird... "

I would get banned for sure. I have been known to take a A6M3 or A6M5b up to 5k and above (my limit was at 12K but of course she was not so fast up there ) and fight up there. The people I was fighting with were surprised.

If you keep your energy management any TNB plane would work well but then the problem is the dive speed limit and the zoom climb limit.

For sure that server i am talking about would have me banned because I am BNZing in a Zero or I-16 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Zero is a fantastic BnZ aircraft up to 3,000m. Not sure about the I-16 as my setup always makes it feel a little unstable.

stalkervision
09-03-2008, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
Also on these servers you would find that most people who owns it (and would kick u for BNZIng) flies only spits and not just any spit BUT the IXe's and 25lbs! Also the SpitVbs only for the guns. Others would fly only the Ki-84c.

Nice of them isn't it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif I would still shoot them down...and then get banned too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

grndragon57
09-03-2008, 05:10 PM
I don't mind servers with this rule, but I do wish they would let you know about the rule before they kick you or accuse you of cheating so that you can fly elsewhere.

VW-IceFire
09-03-2008, 05:20 PM
I'm going to start a server and ban people from flying. Because you know...flying is just so unfair!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We should make a list of the servers with idiotic no BNZ rules and just ensure that nobody visits them. This is the one rule that I can't understand at all. You can debate vulching and I think most sensible people are generally against teamkilling but this one was made because someone couldn't cope.

Just don't play there.

Play on a better sever.

crucislancer
09-03-2008, 05:38 PM
I remember that thread that X32Wright started about banning quite well. It may be their server, but it's a silly rule, nearly like telling a 109 pilot that they may not use their cannon in combat.



Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I actually thought of buying a cheap X Box off ebay in order to try the COnsole sequel. nybody tried it? How does it compare with the PC prequel?

I have the Xbox version, it's quite a lot of fun, especially when I'm in an arcade mood. I've never owned the PC version, so I can't compare them. Of course, the Xbox has solid graphics for a console of the time, but nothing compared to a PC.

jayhall0315
09-03-2008, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by TheFamilyMan:
I'm a noob, but hey even I know: what good are most of the American rides (my beloved) if you are not allowed to BnZ? When I first flew P-47s and P-51 I thought, man what's wrong...these things really suck. Then I learned what energy management was about and how you became nearly untouchable (though I've yet to master that high speed gunnery).

<soap_box>
But that's not my point. I like the simulated WWII combat experience IL-2 can provide, and DF servers IMO have next to nothing to do with actual WWII air combat. No WWII pilot took off thinking "Where's that fur-ball...I'll show everyone who's best". For WWII pilots, it was about mission success and returning to base to do it again. And that is the kind of flying I do with my m8s; we're even toying with the idea "you get shot down, your evening is over" to up the ante. I jump onto the HL DF servers here and there and I find that the mindset is really not that much different than in UT2004 servers. I totally agree it's fun, but it sure ain't much more than that: WWII combat immersion? forget it!

I'd even go so far as to say it possibly dishonors WWII vets to make something into a 'fun past-time' (especially those shooter games: COD et. al.) for which they risked and lost their lives in service to their country. I honestly feel a bit guilty about this.
</soap_box>

True words, my man, ... true words. When I got in this game I was an ***, and I loved TnB and was way too lazy to climb every sortie to 4000 meters. After almost 5 months with the game now, there really is an elegance to completing the mission or successfully energy fighting your opponent in the clouds. I think alot of guys come in and think the open pit arcade servers are similar to WWII, and as you say, nothing could be further from the truth. In all honesty, I have a blast on open pits, when I just want quick action and close combat. When I am ready to really play (or learn) I fly it much more like it actually played out in WWII. Hyperlobby players would be totally thrown off guard if there was a one hour time out anytime they got shot down. Then all this BnZ complaining would go right out the window.

Jay

vonStahlhelm
09-03-2008, 07:29 PM
hell, why are such people playing a very realistic
simulation,but start whining when a pilot is using realistic aircombat technices and tactics.
the better learn the right answer to BnZ instead whining around like babys.
in a realistic simulation all realistic tactics should be used and allowed, maybe except shooting down planes on the airfield and in start/landing.

in reality pilots do even that if the have the chance to. in the simulation we can forget this,beause of fairness and because we are not in danger of life.
all other realistic air combat techniques should be allowed.

P.FunkAdelic
09-04-2008, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by vonStahlhelm:
hell, why are such people playing a very realistic
simulation,but start whining when a pilot is using realistic aircombat technices and tactics.
I have no idea. I was playing the Alpha release of Resistance and Liberation, a realism mod for the source engine. Its hardcore. No HUD whatsoever, you don't know how many bullets are in your clip, you are 1 hit killed mostly, etc.. and still there are morons that go on there and spawn kill for... like 15 minutes. Or I had one guy spawn killing his own team for half the game and his only answer eventually was "going to go kill the other team for a while" and promptly joined the other team. People are amazing.

Heres the thing though. Whenever someone was faced with having to lose they would usually have to deal with it, cause if you threw a hissy in front of everyone you would lose face. But the internet is strange is that consequences are totally different. You can screw around and act like a complete jerk and nobody feels bad about it because you don't have to actually say it to someone's face or watch others react.

I wonder what sociologists are going to be able say about the effects of modern technology on the manners and character of this generation.

What a bunch of tw@ts.

Codger1949
09-04-2008, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
as Wright said, the zero can operate at altitude, but its slower up there...SO WHAT? its still gonna be one of the slowest around, at 100m or 10,000m

the zero CAN bnz....

but to deal with the types you described, Codger, use a zero, then watch them extend away from you, and basically start to bnz your zero.....

then you can ask them they dont stay and turn fight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

That's exactly what I do a lot of times on the servers filled to the brim with La7s and Spit 25s or the 84. I grab a ki45c, Ki27 Otsu (my personal favorite) or the A5. And guess what? They start grabbing altitude. Just yesterday, on said server, one guy was chasing me down in a g2. I waited until he got within about 62 (is that meters being displayed in the plane icon) and did a loop and fell in behind him which he couldn't follow of course. So he extended away from me, which I couldn't follow, of course. I ran to base. My wheels and flaps were down and I just about had my wheels on the runway and he shot me down. And this is permissable, but not bnz.

Darth_Reagan
09-04-2008, 04:39 AM
I think at the end of the day it's a game and if people want to restrict the gameplay on certain servers it's up to them. If your kids were enjoying a game of football in the park and David Beckham joined in and played to the best of his abilities it would soon become very boring for everyone involved. It's simple, this is a game and it's played for fun. Find a group of people to play against who are at the same level.

Codger1949
09-04-2008, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by grndragon57:
I don't mind servers with this rule, but I do wish they would let you know about the rule before they kick you or accuse you of cheating so that you can fly elsewhere.

My complaint exactly. There was a server that explicitly stated that stipulation AND adjusted their planeset for emphasis. I had absolutely no heart ache about it (although I thought it was a little strange) and played accordingly...well, for the most part.

SeaFireLIV
09-04-2008, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by Darth_Reagan:
I think at the end of the day it's a game and if people want to restrict the gameplay on certain servers it's up to them. If your kids were enjoying a game of football in the park and David Beckham joined in and played to the best of his abilities it would soon become very boring for everyone involved. It's simple, this is a game and it's played for fun. Find a group of people to play against who are at the same level.

Who`s going to tell David Beckham `You must play with one leg tied behind you`?

X32Wright
09-04-2008, 08:17 AM
NO NO NO...Banning BNZ and getting kicked for BNZ to me is like saying to somebody you cannot 'head butt'(header) or do the Pele' kick move (bicycle kick) in a soccer game. Its not about Beckham playing its about Beckham being asked to NOT use some LEGITIMATE soccer moves.

Darth_Reagan
09-04-2008, 08:28 AM
Fair points but I still don't see why you want to play somewhere where they do not appreciate your style. It's not like these are publicly owned servers where we all have a voice. Each to their own, I say.

jayhall0315
09-04-2008, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Darth_Reagan:
Fair points but I still don't see why you want to play somewhere where they do not appreciate your style. It's not like these are publicly owned servers where we all have a voice. Each to their own, I say.

Fair enough, but its also the fluidity of the two styles when they intermingle that makes them difficult to separate. What if I approach you with a 50 meter height advantage ? Am I now booming and zooming, or should I also approach with lower altitude and then allow you onto my six before starting the contest ? I am not that biased either way, but to run an IL2 server and then remove the main method by which actual combat took place is to remove IL2 itself from the equation. Why have all the great physics and modeling, and graphics, if we are just arcading with Crimson Skies ?

Jay

X32Wright
09-04-2008, 09:40 AM
Another analogy would be to ask a boxer to not use 'upper cuts' or 'cross cuts' and only use jabs. Now is this boxing? Even if they own the arena and promoted the venue?

FYI I have stopped going to these places that bans BNZing because I have come back in there flying a Zero and they still dont want me to fly in there either because I retain my energy longer and better than they do.

Ultimately they want u to BURN our own energy and turn and turn so they will get u with a Spit or La7. Once you start to employ vertical rolling scissors on them using a Zero they also complain!

Notifying people is a must when they employ this kind of DRACONIAN rules that limits the game. This is why I started that old thread and started notifying the community that is INDEED happening.

Finally one of the server I no longer go was run by a person who showed me HOW to BNZ when I was a noob and now I an not allowed to BNZ in this server because he could no longer kill me when I fly using energy tactics altho he does BNZ other people by staying high you just cannot BNZ Him! When he isnt the target of a BNZ he doesn't notice there is BNZing going on and would not complain.

jayhall0315
09-04-2008, 09:47 AM
That must be the first case of 'Do as I say and not as I do', that I have run across in Hyperlobby http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RegRag1977
09-04-2008, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X32Wright:
Also on these servers you would find that most people who owns it (and would kick u for BNZIng) flies only spits and not just any spit BUT the IXe's and 25lbs! Also the SpitVbs only for the guns. Others would fly only the Ki-84c.

Nice of them isn't it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif I would still shoot them down...and then get banned too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey that happened to me once! I was at 4K flying towards the enemy base me in a Fw190A when i surprised a lone Spitfire carrying bombs (it's not a joke) at about 2.5K/3K.
Result: i shot him down, was called a vulcher (at 3K and miles away from the airbase http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif ), and a cheater http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif So i deserved to be kicked, i guess http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

After me being banned i decided to come back under a very similar nickname, question of pride. I was flying a Fw190A again along with some other guys flying Me109. I spotted a Spitfire flying near my home base at something like 200m. So i dived on him and shot him down.

Then something funny happened http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif : the guy i downed before started asking me stupid questions like: do you know that vulching is not allowed!Do you know what vulching means?

While i was answering that i knew what vulching was, that the track could show that i wasn't vulching, and that he was wrong to accuse me to be a cheater, i got banned. I asked why on the HL personal message: he told me that it was because i was answering his questions and not playing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I had dared to shoot down the moderator of the server... Imagine that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif !

So what am i trying to say? Simply that mods with über ego should not fly fighters on their servers, especially when their skills are very just above average.

My conclusion:
1)fly rather online wars, coops or competition with your squad mates! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

2)if you absolutely have to play on a dogfight server, try as much as possible not to down the moderator: it could help a lot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

TheFamilyMan
09-04-2008, 09:57 AM
Don't get mad, get even. Put up HL DF servers with rules like these: TnB tactics are not generally permitted and neither is dogfighting below 1000m. Such behavior may result in being kicked from this server. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

RegRag1977
09-04-2008, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by TheFamilyMan:
Don't get mad, get even. Put up HL DF servers with rules like these: TnB tactics are not generally permitted and neither is dogfighting below 1000m. Such behavior may result in being kicked from this server. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Too funny

Darth_Reagan
09-04-2008, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Fair enough, but its also the fluidity of the two styles when they intermingle that makes them difficult to separate. What if I approach you with a 50 meter height advantage ? Am I now booming and zooming, or should I also approach with lower altitude and then allow you onto my six before starting the contest ? I am not that biased either way, but to run an IL2 server and then remove the main method by which actual combat took place is to remove IL2 itself from the equation. Why have all the great physics and modeling, and graphics, if we are just arcading with Crimson Skies ?

Jay

I agree with that 100% myself, I just think that if people want to impose certain rules on their server it's up to them. A lot of servers ban things like ramming and shooting at parachutes. They should make it completely clear though, which I think is the original posters point.

Aaron_GT
09-04-2008, 01:30 PM
Hyperlobby players would be totally thrown off guard if there was a one hour time out anytime they got shot down. Then all this BnZ complaining would go right out the window.

This would probably be about the only way to make behaviours a bit more realistic but really you'd only be able to enforce it on a per server basis and you'd risk ending up with an empty server. The only other option might be some all-encompassing online virtual war (perhaps a real-time BoB for the SoW release) with staying 'alive' giving you perks over time, e.g. command over a flight, then squadron, until eventually you get to be Dowding and direct the battle. It ight put a lot of players off, though, if you had to start off as a sergeant in an OTU, though.

M_Gunz
09-04-2008, 05:27 PM
If a server could limit what plane you started with and tie that to time since you last 'died'
then that might have some desired effect. Perhaps factor in score where getting shot down is
worth a bunch of kills in determining which planes you earn the privilege to fly....

WTE_Galway
09-04-2008, 05:46 PM
The solution is to ignore the airquake and stick to your squads servers, co-ops and offline campaigns.

xf86config
09-06-2008, 06:00 AM
One thing that bothers me about this banning of specific engagement teqniques, who does it discourage ?

Experienced pilots ?

Why would you want only the inexperienced to fly on your server ?

Sporran

M_Gunz
09-06-2008, 07:06 AM
cause he can't even get a shoot at anything much else?

X32Wright
09-06-2008, 08:22 AM
for POINTS! The server that I got BANNED for BNZing and got asked to only fly BNZ planes only cares about POINTS and nothing else. If you can kill the server mod or owner they cannot rack up their points so you get BANNED or asked to modify your flying technique since 'it destroys the game' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

yes they only seem to want NOOB that have no energy and would turn like crazy and get frustrated in the game while I am out there in HL trying to help them get better!

steiner562
09-06-2008, 08:32 AM
Its best just to ignore/not use such servers the focal point being that the person who pays for the server can administer any rule he or she wants thats their right,theres enough servers out there to satisfy everyones intrest.

SeaFireLIV
09-06-2008, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by steiner562:
Its best just to ignore/not use such servers the focal point being that the person who pays for the server can administer any rule he or she wants thats their right,theres enough servers out there to satisfy everyones intrest.

This is true.

But when rules were made for games, I don`t believe the intention was to make it benefit the guy with the ball.

I`m amazed this guy still gets players, they can`t know better. In most games: ie Football, cricket, etc, this guy would be sitting alone in the middle of the field in the rain.

stalkervision
09-06-2008, 10:04 AM
reminds me of rigged carnival games.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Stingray333
09-06-2008, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
If a server could limit what plane you started with and tie that to time since you last 'died'
then that might have some desired effect. Perhaps factor in score where getting shot down is
worth a bunch of kills in determining which planes you earn the privilege to fly....

interesting idea... rather than a "you died, your in the time out box for 5 minutes before you respawn" its, you can fly the A6M2 right away, 2 minutes and you can fly the BF109, another minute for the FW-190, etc... could be very interesting given the fact that it seems most of the players in the public dogfight servers are so impatient that they can't even taxi to a safe place to take off, and just go full throttle without looking around the spawn area, and then blame you for getting in their way when they crash into you

I would like it if the score showed three columns of points for: kills, deaths and ground targets

M_Gunz
09-06-2008, 12:49 PM
Oh no. If your points are low, you can only spawn in the common and lesser plane on your side.
That's giving one death = 5 kills. There would have to be a lowest your score could be, like
-10 lives and it stops counting the losses, put you then in bombers, always need bomber crew!

It might take a while to work up and it doesn't have to be worst to best, it could just be the
unlock for unusual or challenging planes you don't want the server swamped with. For the rest
and for when you start it should be the common fighters of the plane set, you start with grace
and a clean slate every so many HOURS online and maybe learn to not lose so fast before too long.

The desired effect is people taking less crazy chances? When just joined or just pardoned gets
G6-Late, just got killed may be riding G6-Early or Ju-87 maybe. Something target-like that
gets points against ground units.

Such a server with mudhens would be bomber-rich and still they would be flying bombers down
below 500m in circle-fights, will the sniper gunners help or not? It might even make an
interesting sight from above. Hehehe -- if a server could make the lowest of the low and
you have to team up, 2 losers to a plane! LOL! Ouch!

waffen-79
09-06-2008, 07:49 PM
kicked for BnZ?

I have news for you!, "Loadout restrictions" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

I mean WTF is that?, can't use the gunpods on planes?

I say...it's your fault if you let an slower, heavier, less agile plane get in your six.

VW-IceFire
09-06-2008, 10:13 PM
Ummm...loadout restrictions is something else entirely.

Its used very effectively on the UK-Dedicated2 and 3 servers for scenarios where something like say a Bf110 was to be used but early in its use before it got large numbers of MK108 cannons attached to it. In 1942 or 1943 thats just too much firepower for one as well as it being a-historical.

No gunpods perhaps because none were available in that area at the time. Some of these scenarios are researched in depth by the map makers.

Its something else entirely...that can and is done for historical accuracy. Maybe not everywhere...but its a very effective tool either for balancing a planeset or being a stickler for history.

Kick and ban for boom and zoom has very little to do with historical accuracy. The boom and zoom technique has been around since just after aerial combat began.

waffen-79
09-07-2008, 10:30 AM
IceFire mate, I see your point, I understand now.

not HJ the thread BTW

But, how accurate are we as to what loadouts were used? I mean, are we really really sure?

I think the Bf-110G-2 case was because the ealier variant, (that didn't have those gondolas) wasn't flyable.

and about Balance, that sounds like an arcadey thing, wars are not balanced.

anyway I only saw the 110 restriction in WC server and the 109 restriction in the FA squad server and it was there where I was told not to use the MG151/20 gunpods on my G-10, which I removed later...their server, their rules.

regards http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stingray333
09-07-2008, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Oh no. If your points are low, you can only spawn in the common and lesser plane on your side.
That's giving one death = 5 kills. There would have to be a lowest your score could be, like
-10 lives and it stops counting the losses, put you then in bombers, always need bomber crew!

It might take a while to work up and it doesn't have to be worst to best, it could just be the
unlock for unusual or challenging planes you don't want the server swamped with. For the rest
and for when you start it should be the common fighters of the plane set, you start with grace
and a clean slate every so many HOURS online and maybe learn to not lose so fast before too long.

The desired effect is people taking less crazy chances? When just joined or just pardoned gets
G6-Late, just got killed may be riding G6-Early or Ju-87 maybe. Something target-like that
gets points against ground units.

Such a server with mudhens would be bomber-rich and still they would be flying bombers down
below 500m in circle-fights, will the sniper gunners help or not? It might even make an
interesting sight from above. Hehehe -- if a server could make the lowest of the low and
you have to team up, 2 losers to a plane! LOL! Ouch!

An interesting idea, the only downside I see is that it wouldn't it tend to "punish" newer players who die more and giving aces a lot slow moving targets?

Stingray

M_Gunz
09-07-2008, 04:18 PM
Yeah, gotta wipe the slate sooner.

OTOH maybe the ones getting the high scores should only get access to harder to win with planes.
The worse plane you fly is because how good you are makes up for it.

But I tell ya, even mediocre players will still be faster and dominate the mudhens.

But where's the incentive to not get killed over and over in the best plane the server has?
Well, at least there wouldn't be any "because my plane is c-r-a-p" excuse except by the aces!

But too many deaths in the last 30 minutes deserves a mission as IL2 or Stuka rear gun seat!
Then wipe points clean and try something different. How's that?

FoolTrottel
09-07-2008, 05:35 PM
But too many deaths in the last 30 minutes deserves a mission as IL2 or Stuka rear gun seat!Then wipe points clean and try something different. How's that?
A brilliant idea?

Aviar
09-07-2008, 07:13 PM
But too many deaths in the last 30 minutes deserves a mission as IL2 or Stuka rear gun seat!Then wipe points clean and try something different. How's that?

Humans cannot fly as gunners in a DF room.

Aviar

VW-IceFire
09-07-2008, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by waffen-79:
IceFire mate, I see your point, I understand now.

not HJ the thread BTW

But, how accurate are we as to what loadouts were used? I mean, are we really really sure?

I think the Bf-110G-2 case was because the ealier variant, (that didn't have those gondolas) wasn't flyable.

and about Balance, that sounds like an arcadey thing, wars are not balanced.

anyway I only saw the 110 restriction in WC server and the 109 restriction in the FA squad server and it was there where I was told not to use the MG151/20 gunpods on my G-10, which I removed later...their server, their rules.

regards http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Well the Bf110G-2...and I don't have the data infront of me...but anyways it didn't have the MK108 attachments early in its use because the MK108 cannon wasn't ready yet. Same with the 109G-6...which can be used in lots of scenarios earlier in the war when the MK108 wasn't yet available. Plus in some Eastern Front scenarios aircraft so equipped weren't available in that area as there were no B-17s or B-24s to shoot at. I don't have all of the data infront...but research had been done.

As for balance...yeah it is a bit arcade like but when the idea is to run a server where the audience is fickle and will leave if its obvious that one side has a significant advantage over the other...then balancing DOES have to factor in. Some online wars and other scenarios where history is absolutely essential in both numbers and equipment...then things are different, sure. But in a dogfight server, even where you do try and observe history, its unlikely that the numbers in the air are going to be a perfect 20 versus 20 in real life http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Similarly if something is particularly overpowering...so much that it clears the server because everyone leaves. Then its not such a good thing and some balance is required.

I'm not sure about WarClouds or FA and what their setups are per history, time periods, and maps. In some servers the restrictions do seem spiteful (not specifically those two either).

In one scenario on UK-Dedicated2...I was restricted so that Spitfires could only carry bombs as in this particular battle they were employed as fighter-bombers only. I believe that map is still played...although lots of Spitfire pilots get confused.

M_Gunz
09-08-2008, 06:28 AM
What you mean by "only carry bombs"?

WTE_Galway
09-08-2008, 07:30 AM
There were actually servers around a few years back that put the "hotter" and newer planes at more distant bases further from the action. If you respawned the choice was a hot rod and a long flight or something tamer and instant action.

It seemed to work at the time. People that had flown 10 minutes to get into action were a lot more careful of their virtual lives.