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View Full Version : Non-Russian Allied Planes Bobble and Bounce



HayateAce
10-18-2005, 12:46 PM
Interesting how the Spits, P51s, P47s, etc have this drunken-like behavior of bobbling all over the sky even with minimum input. Try to aim the guns, good luck. They behave as if they have NO vertical stab. No such problems in the LaGGs, Yaks or 109s.

http://www.toyadz.com/toyadz/kidstuff/weebles1_192x284.jpg

p1ngu666
10-18-2005, 12:51 PM
hm yak3 can hardly turn tho
tried the others and there not that great, better than others tho
will reczech soon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FatBoyHK
10-18-2005, 12:56 PM
Yes, I found the same issue on a Mustang... Not tested other plane yet, will do it soon....

But I Will not make any conclusion yet....

Kuna15
10-18-2005, 01:00 PM
My preliminary P-51 test shows that this plane will remain to be tough ride to fly. Also must check things more.

TheGozr
10-18-2005, 01:03 PM
Try yak9U you'll get sea sick..

SeaFireLIV
10-18-2005, 01:08 PM
How about trying the I16? rather than the `Oleg is biased` insinuations? every plane has its pros and cons!

dazza9806482
10-18-2005, 01:13 PM
I dont usually comment on this stuff cos im berefit of any experience of ww2 planes..

i did notice this too, feels strange

StellarRat
10-18-2005, 01:20 PM
I've flown a light plane and the nose does tend to wander all over the place, but I don't know if this is true in WW II fighters. It seem like it should apply but to lesser extent than a Cessna.

HayateAce
10-18-2005, 01:32 PM
Seems odd for the P47 for instance.

It "pays the price" of being less agile due to its mass and weight, yet the thing has no stability whatsoever. And yes, I've damped down my x45 settings till I am purple in the face.

Anyone using a non-x45 experiencing anything better?

faustnik
10-18-2005, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Seems odd for the P47 for instance.

It "pays the price" of being less agile due to its mass and weight, yet the thing has no stability whatsoever. And yes, I've damped down my x45 settings till I am purple in the face.

Anyone using a non-x45 experiencing anything better?

HayateAce,

I have a MSFFB2 with CH throttle & pedals. My stability is very good compared to other systems. I no stability issues in any a/c other than the P-51. Something about the P-51 modeling makes the nose really wander.

Many squadmates/friends with X-45s complain about stability.

***********************

The P-47 is not only heavy, it is a big a/c. I would expect it to be very stable.

JtD
10-18-2005, 01:43 PM
Yaks wobble horribly. If you fail to see it, something is wrong with your copy of FB or yourself.

J_Weaver
10-18-2005, 01:56 PM
I've just down loaded the patch and the P-51 and P-47 in particular seem to "bob" around quite a bit. In general the flight model seems to be a step back toward 3.04. The aircraft seem to have a bit more of a "weightless" feel than they did in 4.01.

Disclamer!:
These are just a few observation after a quick test drive. They may or may not be correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tomtheyak
10-18-2005, 02:03 PM
Ponies and spits should be directionally a biy unstable - they were designed with less HP than would later be fitted and the designers were always trying to keep up (often with only moderate success) by adding fin or rudder area - I'm using a Saitek Full Force FFb stick and yeah, if i'm a bit ham-footed with the rudder I get lots of 'waddling' but generally they seem OK - at least it seems that they don't snake too much when firing guns anymore

Freycinet
10-18-2005, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Something about the P-51 modeling makes the nose really wander.

100% fuel?

Historically, it caused stability problems to ride with a full fuselage tank...

F19_Ob
10-18-2005, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Interesting how the Spits, P51s, P47s, etc have this drunken-like behavior of bobbling all over the sky even with minimum input. Try to aim the guns, good luck. They behave as if they have NO vertical stab. No such problems in the LaGGs, Yaks or 109s.


My tests so far are limited.
There is a new type of head shake. It's seemingly the pilot that is affected and not the plane, (what I can see) some planes have more pronounced pilot movement and it's mostly noticeable at maximum outzoom. I think it's to simulate that the pilot is affected by movement of the plane.

U can test this in outzoomed position by quickly rocking the plane in short roll-movements aswell as pushing and pulling.
109 is affected aswell but it is perhaps a bit more in the spit.

A new thing to get used to I guess, and I agree about the drunken feeling. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ploughman
10-18-2005, 03:22 PM
My initial impression was that this pitching motion has decreased rather than increased with 4.02m. I was in a Spitfire VIII. But then I reduced the sensitivity of my joystick to pitching motion a week ago so maybe I'm still on that 'honey moon.'

fordfan25
10-18-2005, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Interesting how the Spits, P51s, P47s, etc have this drunken-like behavior of bobbling all over the sky even with minimum input. Try to aim the guns, good luck. They behave as if they have NO vertical stab. No such problems in the LaGGs, Yaks or 109s.

http://www.toyadz.com/toyadz/kidstuff/weebles1_192x284.jpg

iv noticed that with the 51,47 how ever i find the 190 and 109k to have simulure effect. maby slightly less. but i to noticed the la-7 flys solid as a rock. i have not "tested" the yaks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. i sure hope thay change it. its the same effect that was most noticble on the p-47 in 4.01m . it just seems to have spread and gotten worse.

nice pic by the way LOL

Doug_Thompson
10-18-2005, 03:44 PM
OK. So, .50-cal are deadly now, only you can't hit anything with them.

fordfan25
10-18-2005, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Interesting how the Spits, P51s, P47s, etc have this drunken-like behavior of bobbling all over the sky even with minimum input. Try to aim the guns, good luck. They behave as if they have NO vertical stab. No such problems in the LaGGs, Yaks or 109s.


My tests so far are limited.
There is a new type of head shake. It's seemingly the pilot that is affected and not the plane, (what I can see) some planes have more pronounced pilot movement and it's mostly noticeable at maximum outzoom. I think it's to simulate that the pilot is affected by movement of the plane.

U can test this in outzoomed position by quickly rocking the plane in short roll-movements aswell as pushing and pulling.
109 is affected aswell but it is perhaps a bit more in the spit.

A new thing to get used to I guess, and I agree about the drunken feeling. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

try flying in a 47 in F2 out side veiw. move your flight stick around and you can see the plane wobbling in a strange fashion. if i look close i can see that its piveting on an invisble axis right between the wings. kind like ballenceing a stick on the tip of your fingure.

Kuna15
10-18-2005, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Many squadmates/friends with X-45s complain about stability.

Yes. Chances are they are using rocker rudder, and I wonder how these poor guys even manage to fly properly, let alone well aim.
TBH I never try lousier rudder controll on any joystick I had.

My X45 is currently collecting dust while I use EVO. Of course untill I finally decide to purchase pedals. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

VW-IceFire
10-18-2005, 04:32 PM
Sidewinder PP2....all planes bounce and wobble like crazed drunken maniacs.

Yak-9, 109 (the least), Spitfire is completely unstable, FW190, P-47, Ki-61...

I haven't found a non-bouncing wobbly plane yet...

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

faustnik
10-18-2005, 04:42 PM
IceFire,

I bet this is a result of the new conf.ini file.

Go back and recalibrate your stick and then adjust the sliders in the HOTAS section of IL-2 setup.

Freelancer-1
10-18-2005, 04:44 PM
HayateAce et al:

Finnesse folks!

Ham handed DF server flying just ain't gonna cut it any more.

Learn your plane, feel your ride, become one with it.

And most of all.

Spend more than thirty frickin' minutes before passing judgement!!!

HayateAce
10-18-2005, 04:52 PM
Nah, that's not it at all. Since you don't know my experience with the game I'll give you a pass on that comment.

It only took me 5 seconds to see that the P51 and P47 nose wander around the sky while the 109G2, LaGG3 and P40 (to name a few) do NOT.

Doesn't take 30minutes to come to that conclusion.

p-11.cAce
10-18-2005, 04:55 PM
The fuselage fuel tank mounted behind the pilot was always a problem, and you had to take it into consideration on any combat mission. The full tank gave the Mustang an aft center of gravity, and it was actually unstable. Flying instruments with the tank full required careful attention, and with any heavy maneuvering, you could get a stick force reversal. Imagine pushing forward on the stick to control your turn with a 109 across the circle from you! It happened to me.

We had to manage our fuel according to the mission. On a long mission for which you needed all of your fuel, you started on an internal wing tank and then switched to the external tanks as soon as possible after takeoff. Once you dropped your empty external tanks, you switched to the fuselage tank. The Mustang flew like a dream after you had burned half of the fuel from this tank. You were taking a chance that you would not have to engage in combat until you were ready. On a shorter mission, you could consider using the fuel from the fuselage tank after takeoff. Once you were down to half, you went to the external tanks. That way, when you dropped your wing tanks, you were ready to fight.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200112/ai_n9013544/pg_3

I remember reading in Yeager's book about how horrible the mustang handled with fuel in the fuse tank as well. Either research the proper fuel managment procedures or be sure you are carrying 25% or so fuel and the 'Stang settles right down.

geetarman
10-18-2005, 05:59 PM
It's not a fuel or joystick issue. The 51 really wobbles now - worse than 4.01, yet the FM seems arcadish! Very strange. P-47 has alot of it too.

P.S. - 190 has a similar problem. Again, 109-
G10 rides on rails. Sigh.

SeaFireLIV
10-18-2005, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Nah, that's not it at all. Since you don't know my experience with the game I'll give you a pass on that comment.

It only took me 5 seconds to see that the P51 and P47 nose wander around the sky while the 109G2, LaGG3 and P40 (to name a few) do NOT.

Doesn't take 30minutes to come to that conclusion.

Anything that takes 5 seconds to test is NOT proper testing. Real testing should take way longer, even for little things. If you`d said you`d taken 30 minutes to test I would have believed you.

Your comment has immediately disqualified you from any reliable objective testing of anything.

fordfan25
10-18-2005, 06:18 PM
yea well it only took me a sec to see that the planes were woobleing worse in new patch. if you hit your thumb with a hammer does it realy take you weeks of testing to figure out if it hurts? iv adjusted stick settings multi times sence i installed the patch last night. iv never seen a plane act the way these do. not IRL or on vid. im useing a cyborg stick my self. never had the effect till 4.01 and its only gotten worse for me in 4.02. im woundering if its a mistake or problem with the new FM engien or if 1c wants it that way.

Grey_Mouser67
10-18-2005, 06:18 PM
I find it interesting how different patches affect different people...I'm really noticing virtually no difference in the handling qualities of the spitfire...the Mustang and maybe Lightning are ok...mustang much better with elevator...completely controllable. The Jug now, it has been nerfed imho...and since when did 434 mph qualify as "near P-47M performance"...I'd say it is near P-47D performance!

Can anyone get more than 700km/hr out of it in level flight? I got 698 at 6800 meters...it goes down at 7500 meters so I know I'm close to its critical altitude...seems a bit lower than 30,000 ft. huh? My documentation has the M flying 470-480mph and a climb rate of somehting like 4000+ ft/min under full boost at low altitude...maybe more? References are a bit sketchy....near M performance I was thinking was somewhere in the 450-460 range and maybe 3800 ft/min climb...I guess I don't think like Oleg.

I do notice a bit of nose wandering in the 109's and 190's but their oscillations and controls are so dampened compared to other aircraft that it really doesn't affect my gunnery....I think I could really kill something now with HMG's if only I could get my guns to stay on target. The Spitfire is still worse in class in nose wobble with guns firing...can't figure how a spit wiggles so much and a Fw can be soooo smooooth.

fordfan25
10-18-2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
I find it interesting how different patches affect different people...I'm really noticing virtually no difference in the handling qualities of the spitfire...the Mustang and maybe Lightning are ok...mustang much better with elevator...completely controllable. The Jug now, it has been nerfed imho...and since when did 434 mph qualify as "near P-47M performance"...I'd say it is near P-47D performance!

Can anyone get more than 700km/hr out of it in level flight? I got 698 at 6800 meters...it goes down at 7500 meters so I know I'm close to its critical altitude...seems a bit lower than 30,000 ft. huh? My documentation has the M flying 470-480mph and a climb rate of somehting like 4000+ ft/min under full boost at low altitude...maybe more? References are a bit sketchy....near M performance I was thinking was somewhere in the 450-460 range and maybe 3800 ft/min climb...I guess I don't think like Oleg.

I do notice a bit of nose wandering in the 109's and 190's but their oscillations and controls are so dampened compared to other aircraft that it really doesn't affect my gunnery....I think I could really kill something now with HMG's if only I could get my guns to stay on target. The Spitfire is still worse in class in nose wobble with guns firing...can't figure how a spit wiggles so much and a Fw can be soooo smooooth.

yea i was a bit let down by the new 47's speed but im not going to complain. its faster than what we had i think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

danjama
10-18-2005, 06:33 PM
Ya know when u watch guncam footage from P47s, that "rocking" and yawing is actually visible, so maybe it is correct. Did u think of that any of ya? Sure, it SEEMS wrong to our little minds, but it is visible in REAL fOOTAGE. I say we ask P47 airshow pilots they would know 4 sure. Dont get me wrong, i dont like the rocking and yawing either, its hell for aiming and turning, but if its right then so be it...

Lucius_Esox
10-18-2005, 06:36 PM
Agree with Hayatace and I have more hours flying this sim than I care to think about, maybe I will get used to it, maybe I wont http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

People commenting about smooth flight inputs and being noobs etc are pretty insulting really, hey what do I know..

hamselv2
10-18-2005, 06:37 PM
I have been flying the Spitfire Mk9c LF CW since it was *mplemented. It has been my favorite plane for a long time, and I have spent many hundred virtual flight hours in it. In 4.01 the plane would sway from side to side when I was shooting. The plane could be a bit touchy in hard turns, but I had no problems turning. I have seen a lot of Spit 9c LF CW bandits stall and spin during combat though. Some people have told me that they find the plane hard to fly because of the instability/stalling.
I have now installed 4.02m and I must say that this version of the Spitfire has become almost unflyable in combat. I have tried it offline and online, for about 1 - 2 hours. It wobbles a lot from side to side both when I shoot, and when I turn. Even at corner speed it's very hard to turn without wobbling almost out of control, and I cant feel the weight of the plane as I could before. I use a Microsoft Forcefeedback 2 Pro USB joystick with forcefeedback set at maximum. I haven't yet tried to adjust the slider settings or forcefeedback for the joystick, so perhaps there is a cure for some of the wobbling. The Spitfire Mk5b seems to be less wobbly than the Mk9, but it's still worse than in 4.01m.
I have also been flying the A6M5b in both 4.01 and 4.02. I haven't noticed any big difference between 4.01 and 4.02 versions.

Lucius_Esox
10-18-2005, 06:41 PM
hamselv2 You have just said what I wanted to say but thought prudent not to, yet, couldn't agree with you more m8..

BigKahuna_GS
10-18-2005, 06:42 PM
S!




Mouse--Can anyone get more than 700km/hr out of it in level flight? I got 698 at 6800 meters...it goes down at 7500 meters so I know I'm close to its critical altitude...seems a bit lower than 30,000 ft. huh? My documentation has the M flying 470-480mph and a climb rate of somehting like 4000+ ft/min under full boost at low altitude...maybe more? References are a bit sketchy....near M performance I was thinking was somewhere in the 450-460 range and maybe 3800 ft/min climb..


You are absolutly correct. I was at least hoping for 450mph at critical alt. I am actualy getting less than the P47D-27 in max speed at 9100m.
Well at least it performs better at mid/lower alt where most of the fighting occurs anyways.


__

TheGozr
10-18-2005, 06:47 PM
609IAP_Kahuna

A lots of truth in your Signature. I like it.
Still very true today.

Pirschjaeger
10-18-2005, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
Many squadmates/friends with X-45s complain about stability.

Yes. Chances are they are using rocker rudder, and I wonder how these poor guys even manage to fly properly, let alone well aim.
TBH I never try lousier rudder controll on any joystick I had.

My X45 is currently collecting dust while I use EVO. Of course untill I finally decide to purchase pedals. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Faustnik, I used to have the X45 and I can't imagine how anyone could use the z-axis. I tried but it was as sensitive as using the "x" and "z" keys. Instead I had to use the 3D Gold and the X45 together, with the X45 j-stick behind the monitor. I think the only people able to use the X45 z-axis are those with very small fingers.

Kuna, I bought the EVO when I had installed the new FM. I had a 3D Gold but the z-axis was broken. So when I tried the new FM I only used the Evo. I thought the new FM was terrible due to the wobbling of the planes. Fed up with trying to aim I decided to repair the 3Dgold. Then I realized the problem all aalong was the Evo. The z-axis on the evo is rubbish.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
10-18-2005, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Nah, that's not it at all. Since you don't know my experience with the game I'll give you a pass on that comment.

It only took me 5 seconds to see that the P51 and P47 nose wander around the sky while the 109G2, LaGG3 and P40 (to name a few) do NOT.

Doesn't take 30minutes to come to that conclusion.

You tested all the planes and made conclusions in under 30 minutes? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Hayate, you are my new hero. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Do you wear a cape? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

VW-IceFire
10-18-2005, 07:20 PM
Let me be very straight and perfectly honest with you folks...something is different and its not for the best.

So far I have spent the last 3 hours fighting with the game trying to get the aircraft to behave with the same level of precision and feeling of control that I had in the minutes, hours, days, and months that 4.01m was installed.

So far I have not had much success. A slight tap on the rudder and the Spitfire/Yak/P-47/P-40/Corsair and any number of other aircraft will wobble. First violently from side to side...then again in a more subtle way until it stops shaking. IF I had to guess, I'd say that a tap on the rudder starts at 2-3 second process that is quite disconcerting and not previously present on my system in 4.01 (on any plane).

A slight tap to the guns on some aircraft and the shake comes back...an attempt to fight the shake with rudder makes it worse.

Now at this point I don't know whats happened...it seems like I traded for someone with the same problems in the 4.01 patch. If this is what you guys were going through then...its surely maddening. Whats causing it is beyond my guess.

I will continue to play with settings and adjust my stick and do whatever it takes to make it liveable again but at the moment my ability to precisely aim on a moving target with a reasonable degree of success is extremely hindered.

I am not a newbie, I know how to configure my controls, I had spent hours tweaking joystick settings to make things the way I wanted them to be, and now things are drastically different. If this is the way its supposed to be...then it is...but it sounds like we're playing different games. Maybe fixes to help one set of people with control issues has transfered it to another set of people...why and what the distiction is remains a mystery.

HayteAce's murmerings aside, I actually partially agree with him for the first time ever. Take that as a sign.

FlatSpinMan
10-18-2005, 08:00 PM
Really, Ice-fire? The 47 and 51 seemed relatively stable to me. I'm not a great pilot but I thought (again, this is all just impressions we're going on)that there was less shudder and wobble when firing. At the start of a QMB the planes tend to slip around for a second or two but once you get them level I found it okay.Certainly nothing like you described here
------------------------------
"A slight tap on the rudder and the Spitfire/Yak/P-47/P-40/Corsair and any number of other aircraft will wobble. First violently from side to side...then again in a more subtle way until it stops shaking. IF I had to guess, I'd say that a tap on the rudder starts at 2-3 second process that is quite disconcerting"
-------------------------------

I don't claim to have the definitive answer on this as I said earlier it is just my impression versus the impressions of others. To me it seems easier to fly now.Perhaps that's because I have been flying a lot of cr@p planes recently which are more responsive and twitchy than the later ones... dunno.

civildog
10-18-2005, 08:00 PM
Cobras bounce around like they are spings and it's impossible to hit anything from over 100-200m, even then it's a lucky hit more than anything.

All these planes should be a lot more stable than this. They feel like they are filled with helium - the weighty feel of some (like the P-47 vs. the Mustang) is gone.

Freelancer-1
10-18-2005, 09:12 PM
Hi

Well, I just finished two hours in Hyperlobby.

I tested not ten, not five, not even three planes. Just two. P39-N1 and a P63C. One full hour each. The minimum, IMO, to get a feel for the new FM.

I lucked out in WarClouds and found a whole lot of V-1's. These things just sail along ignoring you and take whatever you give them. Here's the thing, I had no problem after about ten minutes knocking them down from a good distance away.

So, all this "bobbing around, can't hit anything ", is just a lack of familiarity with the new FM.

As for live targets, my K/D was about normal.

A few observations:

You really need to be on the rudder trim all the time. If your not using a rotory or a slider, your not going to be on top of things. Yaw is more pronouced now. You can almost feel it. Pretty cool, actually.

Easy on the throttle. More so than before. Torque effects are very pronounced. Easy to drop a wing.

I didn't stall. If you fly a P39 you know why. You don't just chop the throttle and magicaly recover like in most planes. Most of the time you bail or die. Along the same lines, do not black out unless you are climbing. This was the biggest change I noticed. Hit the deck twice from black outs.

Ground handling, no problem.

Stability. Once trimmed properly, you can go make a pot of coffee and it'll still be flying along fat dumb and happy when you return.

In all, and I can only speak so far for these two planes. I see nothing a couple of hours of stick time won't take care of.

X45
CH Pedals
Track IR

Von_Rat
10-18-2005, 09:14 PM
i flew p51 alot tonite,, overall stability ok, but it bounced up and down like a pogo stick when i tied to aim.

i messed with elevator inputs, still bouncy.


i normally fly blue but when i fly red i used to prefer p51, not anymore.

faustnik
10-18-2005, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Yes. Chances are they are using rocker rudder, and I wonder how these poor guys even manage to fly properly, let alone well aim.
TBH I never try lousier rudder controll on any joystick I had.


So, the X-45 is good with rudder pedals? I'll mention that next time the subject comes up. Thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

VW-IceFire
10-18-2005, 09:22 PM
Alright...I've fought some more and I think I've won.

Here's the various things that I tried:

1) Created a new pilot in the game
2) Reset the joystick controls (no effect)
3) Created new joystick controls (no effect)
4) Reset the joystick controls on my old pilot, then exited the game. Replaced the config.ini with my last backup (made with 4.01m)
5) Started the game...no effect.
6) Recalibrated the joystick.
7) Deleted the current config.ini and replaced it again with my old backup.
6) Restarted the game. Totally differen't game...controls restored.

I went from slight touch on the Spit creating spin stall to much more managable possible to precision shoot type performance. The P-51 and P-47 still wobble a bit but not the mega wobble from before.

This is totally a mystery as I had the same values the entire time but something wasn't jiving with the whole system and now it seems to be functioning normally. It went from being VERY hard to fairly easy flying all in one shot.

@Freelancer-1: I know you haven't taken any of these problems seriously but they are issues and they seem to occur sometimes on some machines for unknown reasons. They cannot be sluffed off as not being familiar with the patch. Something was very wrong...now it is fixed after several hours of work.

@HayateAce: I know you don't take my suggestions or comments seriously but I would have a hard look at your settings and maybe do some work like I have on the joystick, user profiles, and config.ini files and see if you can solve the issue. If you were getting what I was...it was a nightmare and now I think I've got it solved.

Badsight.
10-18-2005, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Your comment has immediately disqualified you from any reliable objective testing of anything. you needed him to comment for that ?

come on - its HayateAce ! just the name alone is enough to let you know the thread is based on a big fat zero

with even less credibility.

HayateAce
10-18-2005, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

@HayateAce: I know you don't take my suggestions or comments seriously

To the contrary.

Pirschjaeger
10-18-2005, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Let me be very straight and perfectly honest with you folks...something is different and its not for the best.

So far I have spent the last 3 hours fighting with the game trying to get the aircraft to behave with the same level of precision and feeling of control that I had in the minutes, hours, days, and months that 4.01m was installed.


When I first tried the new FM I said the same thing about the 190. It wobbled like crazy and meant you had to spray and prey. I was flamed by many for this.

Now you guyz get to make the same claims about allied planes and no one is getting flamed.

I'm not saying anyone is making unnecessary claims and you guyz are probably right. Just thought I'd take the opportunity to point out a major imperfection of this community.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
10-18-2005, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Yes. Chances are they are using rocker rudder, and I wonder how these poor guys even manage to fly properly, let alone well aim.
TBH I never try lousier rudder controll on any joystick I had.


So, the X-45 is good with rudder pedals? I'll mention that next time the subject comes up. Thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not my quote! Get me a lawyer! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

But I did hear, keyword "hear", the X45 is good with pedals. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

p1ngu666
10-18-2005, 10:43 PM
oleg cant make the fw190 tooo bouncy or he will set off eplieptic fits. bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/ *spasmes*

the allied planes had alot of float/sway before, the 190 had some. poor 109 fliers hadto put up with a plane that handled like a train http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
"on rails" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

guncam films might have some magnifcation, and slowed down too (maybe)

then again, we all/mostly use the zoom view for aiming...

i tended to spray in the 190 anyways cos of the view and its sensative controls

Freelancer-1
10-18-2005, 10:46 PM
@Freelancer-1: I know you haven't taken any of these problems seriously but they are issues and they seem to occur sometimes on some machines for unknown reasons.

Don't mis-understand me IceFire. Technical problems can be a serious issue and I understand that. It took me a full half hour of futzing around just to get the game to launch in HyperLobby.

My issue is is with all the instant analysis I'm reading five minutes after the patch is released. Who could possibly pay attention to that cr@p. It's just a bunch of memememe look at me hokum.

I do apologise for the impression I gave of lumping you in with all these nutters.

Pirschjaeger
10-18-2005, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
oleg cant make the fw190 tooo bouncy or he will set off eplieptic fits. bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/bar/target/ *spasmes*

the allied planes had alot of float/sway before, the 190 had some. poor 109 fliers hadto put up with a plane that handled like a train http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
"on rails" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

guncam films might have some magnifcation, and slowed down too (maybe)

then again, we all/mostly use the zoom view for aiming...

i tended to spray in the 190 anyways cos of the view and its sensative controls

When I installed the new fm there were two reasons for the rudder sway. Firstly, I was using a new Evo(not as good as the 3Dgold) and secondly, the new fm. The 190 was never good to aim with anyways.

As for the bar, it has never bothered me since I have little or no experience flying a real 190 in combat. No, really, no experience. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You use zoom for aiming? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Noooooooob! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Fritz

dazza9806482
10-19-2005, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
@Freelancer-1: I know you haven't taken any of these problems seriously but they are issues and they seem to occur sometimes on some machines for unknown reasons.

Don't mis-understand me IceFire. Technical problems can be a serious issue and I understand that. It took me a full half hour of futzing around just to get the game to launch in HyperLobby.

My issue is is with all the instant analysis I'm reading five minutes after the patch is released. Who could possibly pay attention to that cr@p. It's just a bunch of memememe look at me hokum.

I do apologise for the impression I gave of lumping you in with all these nutters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I dont recall giving any anaylsis. I dont have any experience of WW2 warbirds and their handling. Neither do you. But after playing around with the new P47 for about 30 minutes I did notice something different. and it did feel strange. maybe correct and maybe correctable. i noticed others had posted the same....

so dry your eyes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

3.JG51_Stecher
10-19-2005, 12:53 AM
I won't disagree that non-Russian Allied planes bobble and bounce, but it is not exclusive to them. It seems to be across the board with this FM. American/British/Russian/German/Italian/Polish/Romanian/whatever. They all do this, and it's not good.

FatBoyHK
10-19-2005, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Alright...I've fought some more and I think I've won.

Here's the various things that I tried:

1) Created a new pilot in the game
2) Reset the joystick controls (no effect)
3) Created new joystick controls (no effect)
4) Reset the joystick controls on my old pilot, then exited the game. Replaced the config.ini with my last backup (made with 4.01m)
5) Started the game...no effect.
6) Recalibrated the joystick.
7) Deleted the current config.ini and replaced it again with my old backup.
6) Restarted the game. Totally differen't game...controls restored.

I went from slight touch on the Spit creating spin stall to much more managable possible to precision shoot type performance. The P-51 and P-47 still wobble a bit but not the mega wobble from before.

This is totally a mystery as I had the same values the entire time but something wasn't jiving with the whole system and now it seems to be functioning normally. It went from being VERY hard to fairly easy flying all in one shot.

@Freelancer-1: I know you haven't taken any of these problems seriously but they are issues and they seem to occur sometimes on some machines for unknown reasons. They cannot be sluffed off as not being familiar with the patch. Something was very wrong...now it is fixed after several hours of work.

@HayateAce: I know you don't take my suggestions or comments seriously but I would have a hard look at your settings and maybe do some work like I have on the joystick, user profiles, and config.ini files and see if you can solve the issue. If you were getting what I was...it was a nightmare and now I think I've got it solved.

Icefire, so you think it is a problem on the ini that create this problem?? it is very very strange, really worth looking at it.....will do so after work.....

WOLFMondo
10-19-2005, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Interesting how the Spits, P51s, P47s, etc have this drunken-like behavior of bobbling all over the sky even with minimum input. Try to aim the guns, good luck. They behave as if they have NO vertical stab. No such problems in the LaGGs, Yaks or 109s.

http://www.toyadz.com/toyadz/kidstuff/weebles1_192x284.jpg

I get it with the P47 but not the others. You can get it with the Ta and Dora too but this can be ironed out with stick settings adjustments. Just means with my current stick setting I can only BNZ with certain planes.

dazza9806482
10-19-2005, 01:15 AM
By the way Fatboy- your sig is absolutely the best ive seen, did someone paint it for u?

FatBoyHK
10-19-2005, 01:46 AM
I just searched it out from the net.... it is from a well-known artist AFAIK.

Tully__
10-19-2005, 02:17 AM
So far (and I haven't flown much yet) they seem to bobble LESS than the previous version for me... wait 'til I get some more stick time I 'spose.

JG52Uther
10-19-2005, 02:33 AM
Well i have to say,after downloading the patch and only trying the new P47 ('cos its new)that if ound it very easy to aim with.i just started a qmb and strafed ground targets and found it very stable.I use an X45 and CH pedals.The plane did'nt have any feeling of weight though.Just a personal view and i have not had much time to test.

AFJ_Skyghost
10-19-2005, 03:15 AM
I fly the Spits since they are avaiable, off and online.
My rides of choice are the 1943 MkVIII and the IXe of 1944.
Well, on patch 4.01 I almost gave up of the sim because they were totally unflyable compared to other planes of the same years, like the 109s or 190s.
They couldn t fly straight, no matter how much trim you used, you had to retrim them each ten seconds, you couldn t aim on a turn or on a dive, the planes totally suck.
With this new patch, all I had to do was to change the rudder input settings and they are both flying like a charm.
I m back in business, because I got back the right tools for it

Jetbuff
10-19-2005, 03:33 AM
Granted, I haven't tested that much, but bear with me: could it be that the change is increased control authority? It would explain previously untrimmable planes flying better now but more oscillations (nose-bombing) when one is hamfisted with the controls. (necessary previously in 4.01) I certainly noticed that my accuracy and steadiness improved immensely as soon as I eased up on my rudder inputs for example.

That would also explain the feeling that there is less inertia. Whether it is a symptom or the cause of the increased authority though is beyond me.

Kuna15
10-19-2005, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Faustnik, I used to have the X45 and I can't imagine how anyone could use the z-axis. I tried but it was as sensitive as using the "x" and "z" keys. Instead I had to use the 3D Gold and the X45 together, with the X45 j-stick behind the monitor. I think the only people able to use the X45 z-axis are those with very small fingers.

Kuna, I bought the EVO when I had installed the new FM. I had a 3D Gold but the z-axis was broken. So when I tried the new FM I only used the Evo. I thought the new FM was terrible due to the wobbling of the planes. Fed up with trying to aim I decided to repair the 3Dgold. Then I realized the problem all aalong was the Evo. The z-axis on the evo is rubbish.

Fritz

Absolutely true from my experience.
I am not completely satisfied with EVO, far from it, But of two 'evils' I had to go with lesser evil.

I have used X45 rocker in 3.04 now I can only imagine what horrible stuff one could expect from rocker rudder with 401-402.

Bad thing for me about whole issue that I don't have a chance to purchase some good gaming hardware since the choices are very limited here where I live (Saitek, Genius hardware and some others that are really of lesser quality). And apart from books, never ordered anything else online. But I see that is going to change. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jetbuff
10-19-2005, 04:37 AM
I use an X45 with the rocker rudder (too broke for pedals) and have had no problems with either 4.01 or 4.02 - easy does it.

strelnik_Sipi
10-19-2005, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
So far (and I haven't flown much yet) they seem to bobble LESS than the previous version for me... wait 'til I get some more stick time I 'spose.
I noticed the same thing. In 4.01 the aircraft wobled alot more.

money_money
10-19-2005, 06:28 AM
Isnt all this "wobble" the gyro effect?

FlatSpinMan
10-19-2005, 06:44 AM
I agree. Less wobble for me in 4.02. no pedals here either.

AH_Gonzo
10-19-2005, 07:47 AM
While I'm not too enthused about the new flight model (Being a bit kind there), I have noticed that all the aircraft are effected a little differently by the wobble and wander in the nose. In fact, my real compliant is not the nose wandering itself, but more the rate at which it happens.

All aircraft need continuous trimming when any adjustment to flight path, power, configuration, or air speed is made. The larger the operating envelope of the aircraft, the more important correctly trimming the aircraft becomes. Throw in a large propeller and even the slightest power adjustments will require trimming in all of the aircraft's axis. 4.01 did a good job of simulating this.

My complaint with 4.02 is that it all happens way too fast. The nose doesn€t wander as much as it bobbles and bounces around. In 4.01, the nose wandering effect was good. The nose would go left or right at a rate proportional to the aircraft€s trim settings and speed differential from those settings. Now it just seems to shake and giggle around and the trim effect is reduced. No matter what air speed the aircraft and trim settings are adjusted for, the nose still shakes and bounces around at a pretty fast rate. Even in stable and trimmed level flight, the nose still bounces around.

I have never flown a WWII plane but I do have lots of high performance propeller time and I€ve never encountered an aircraft with a vibrating nose in the manner suggested by the latest patch.

On the positive side, I do think though that Oleg and crew are trying their hardest to show just how tough certain aircraft are to fly and the amount of pilot interaction that is required to fly a high powered aircraft smoothly and efficiently. Also, I have to give them credit for trying to highlighting the differences between the aircraft types featured in the game but I think this last patch is a slight step back form 4.01.

Tully__
10-19-2005, 08:07 AM
Got some more time in... gyroscopic forces are greater, and the angular damping has changed.

On some aircraft the angular oscillation has less damping than before, on others more. It looks to me that there has been a slight change in the way weight distribution is modelled or in the way oscillation damping is modelled. Either could account for this. The end result is we have to be a lot more careful not to overcontrol on some aircraft.

The gyroscopic thing is causing the ball to bob about quite a bit more in a pitch change than has ever happend before, but if you don't get excited and try too hard to correct it, it will settle down rather quickly.

This is fun, I like testing new patches http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

73GIAP_Milan
10-19-2005, 08:13 AM
I did some testing this afternoon and my conclusion is this:

Both the Red and Blue planes suffer from the wobble effect. But the Red side has it much more severe in it's flightmodeling.

Planes tested:
F4U series, P-47, P-39, F6F 109F/G/Glate,Fw190A4/5,A6M5 Zero..

If you watch the Turn&Bank Indicator in the cockpits you will see. I tried the Bf109G6 for example and in that cockpit the T&Bgauge showed exactly the same behaviour as in the one of the F4U1A Corsair, but the actual model of the corsair - to take an example - really wanders about in the sky - as the T&Bgauge indicates. Even on slight rudderinput.

The 109's T&Bgauge showed the same behaviour on even slight rudderinput, but the nose did not wander about, only a little.

This is my 2/c on this matter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Estocade85
10-19-2005, 10:01 AM
We really need an official reply to this wobbeling thing. Maybe Oleg could explain the "whys" and "hows".

Anyway, tested the P-51D for 4 hours last night in HL. The first thing I noticed was the very sensitive wobbeling, mostly at slow speeds (take offs, long climbing).

But once you level out and accelerate to combat speed, it seems diminish a lot. Also, when diving on a target, the wobbeling is outta there and you've got super responsive controls.

So, IMHO, I don't know if the wobbeling is realistic or not (hope it is or someone screwed up), but as long as it ain't there when it's critical, I can sure deal with it.

BTW, for 2 weeks I've flown the pony exclusively and never got a SINGLE air-to-air kill, not even by accident. Yesterday alone, got 5 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif thx to the steady tracers. Now I can actually see what I'm shotting at. Bare in mind that the pony is still a freaking tough plane to fly and it's not uber in anyway.

TacticalYak3
10-19-2005, 10:15 AM
Interesting discussion. Putting aside my physics book http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif all I can say is last night flying a late model Mustang was a real challenge - and I like challenges btw.

This mission was in Ardennes with poor weather conditions - turbulence down low and heavy cloud cover. Tough conditions. Not a Mustang driver myself, never liked the guns, but even after trim I found myself really struggling to line up my shots on a FW-190. I thought it strange that this "wobbliness" was still being experience above the turbulence line.

I ran the same mission again flying the FW and noticed the instability on take-off. Once I reached @300 km/hr it seemed more stable and trimmed. I believe it had some wobble also in flight, though I found myself definitely down low in the turbulence with the FW.

-----

One of the concerns I expressed when the 4.01 patch was released had to do with fairness, especially for online battles, in that Allied pilots seem to have assumed more challenges with the pre-BOB flight model then Axis pilots.

While this could be mitigated to some degree if one owned all the necessary peripherals, folks without the toys were at a disadvantage. I personally managed with my setup by assigning rudder control to my mouse wheel and changing my joystick settings.

In any event, after some time I started enjoying the new flight model, but I fly only in campaign missions online usually against AI. Others might not be so patient when being shot down by folks online while they struggled with trim and what not.

The new patch seems to address this issue of fairness, at least it seems to at this point, in that Axis pilots also have to deal with some challenges in the evolving flight model. As long as we don't deviate too much from historical accuracy, I think this is a good approach from a gaming perspective. Up the wobbliness in Axis planes too!

TS!

civildog
10-19-2005, 12:08 PM
A huge part of the problem is that this game has been patched so many times, with each patch causing some big across the board changes back and forth, that it's impossible to tell if any of it is accurate anymore.

First the 190's are too weak, now too strong, then back to weak, now they burn like a Zero....

50' scatter like shotguns, then shoot like lasers, then maybe-not sure porked, now they seem fine...

Planes too fast, too stable, unstable, fly like pigs, the P-47 too fast, too slow, now the 109's are like cars on rails, the Mustangs wings fall off when the pilot sneezes, the Cobras tumble, they don't tumble enough....

After all this nonsense it's fast getting impossible to have any trust in the flight or damage models at all. This game han't been evolving at all - it just wobbles back and forth like the nose on the planes.

4.01 was just fine, except for some minor damage modeling which should have been left alone after 3.04....ahhhh! See what I mean!?

WOLFMondo
10-19-2005, 12:26 PM
100% agree CivilDog. Which version of FB reality is the right one. To many changes from patch to patch but there all supposed to be correct.

Make your mind up Oleg. Please.

Tully__
10-19-2005, 01:08 PM
I'm going to quote something I wrote last month in another thread:

Aerodynamic simulation in PC simulators has come a long way in the last 10-15 years. Traditionally it has dealt with aircraft behaviour by having "look up tables" for a variety of power settings, speeds, weights, altitudes, attitudes and loadouts. The software would look up what your P-51 should be doing when 85% power was applied at 15,000 feet/305mph with 30% fuel and external rockets fitted and adjust your aircraft's behaviour accordingly.

In the early days this approach worked very well as it provided a good basic behaviour model with low CPU & memory overheads as all the performance figures were pre-calculated for as many different flight conditions as the available memory had room for. The trouble is it leads to some really funky behaviour at the edge of the flight envelop.

To get around the funky behaviour, some aspects of flight in these types of sims are scripted. The MS CFS stalls/spins are an example. When the pre-calculated conditions for stall are encountered, the program starts the precoded animation for stall/spin. When the pilot applies the pre-calculated control inputs necessary to "recover" from the stalled condition, the a/c returns to normal flight.

In order to get around this there are two approaches. The first is simply to make the look up table vastly more detailed. While effective to a certain degree, the overhead involved in looking up the huge tables begins to have an impact on efficient memory management and CPU, particularly when lots of aircraft are involved. It still only goes part way to resolving the issues involved with flight in a state outside the flight envelop.

An alternative approach used in X-Plane and by 1C:Maddox is to have no tables and calculate aircraft responses in real time rather than in advance. This is fairly demanding on CPU's and some heavy simplifications have to be made in the aerodynamic model of the aircraft and the formulae used to calculate behaviour in order for PC's to keep up. Even multi million dollar military simulators calculating only for a single aircraft and using supercomputers can't manage a full fidelity realtime simulation, so it's not surprising that our desktop machines feel the pinch bit.

As the "average" gaming computer has improved in performance over the last few years, 1C:Maddox have been improving the fidelity of the simulation, which is to say there are fewer simplifications of the aerodynamic models and the formulae used in calculating behaviour. Badsight mentioned that there is only one FM. This is partly true, as the same aerodynamic formulae are applied for all aircraft, but each aircraft has it's own unique aerodynamic profile to which the formula is applied.

Among the sorts of simplification that are made in order for our PC's to cope is considering the aircraft in large pieces. For instance in a simple model, the wing might be treated as a single airfoil with constant chord, no washout and a consistent airfoil shape for its entire length. It may also ignore "edge effects" such as at the wing tip and wing root. As more computing power becomes available, the software may be refined to calculate the loss of lift in the area near the wing tip, or the extra drag that occurs in the region of the wing root or the change in stall behaviour that results from having a wing with washout instead of having the same angle of attack over its entire length.

Each time a an increase in the complexity of the formulae is introduced, there may appear some un-anticipated effect that results from a previously trivial simplification in the aerodynamic model. Conversely a change in the aerodynamic model may introduce a need to further refine the calculations, or to begin calculating for an effect that had been negligible with the simpler aerodynamic model.

What we can expect from this in the long run is general aircraft behaviour that is more realistic. It will always be the case that some aircraft will have some aspect of their performance that doesn't match their historic performance. Simulating true performance using the calculation method is still orders of magnitude beyond the desktop PC and we can't expect aircraft to conform perfectly with the historical performance of the real thing for some years to come.

What we can expect is that the flight characteristics of simulated aircraft in general will be more like real aircraft in general. Further, as the modeling comes closer to real life aircraft we can expect that the departures from historical behaviour will be less pronounced.

Tully__
10-19-2005, 01:16 PM
With my above post in mind, I get the feeling that the "bobble" that is receiving so much attention can be put down to two things:

1. Addition of significant modelling of "p-factor" and gyroscopic forces, particularly the latter

2. A change in angular momentum and aerodynamic damping of angular velocity.

Though the characteristics of individual aircraft with respect to these two areas may not be 100% accurate, the additional complexity in the flight model allows aircraft in general to demonstrate characteristics of real aircraft better than in previous versions. These are factors real pilots have to deal with that we haven't previously had to deal with in this depth in the sim. Some of the aircraft may have more or less severe reactions to gyroscopic forces than in real life, and better or worse aerodynamic damping of "bobble" than in real life, but in general these things seem to be modelled in more detail than in previous versions. While not ideal, I'm in favour as it seems to be a step forward.

danjama
10-19-2005, 01:26 PM
I think im going OT a touch here, but is anyone finding that the ALL SPITFIRES are snapping a hell of alot easier on turns, even at like 300-400kmh? I mean, ive never flown a spit, but hundreds of people who have claim that the Spit NEVER SNAPS, in fact it is renowned for its NOT snapping. So why does Oleg see fit to implement this horrible characteristic? I used to be quite HOT in a MkVIII, now it is impossible to turn and aim, and lots of other spitfirey maneuvers. Its really my only gripe with 4.02, 51s and 47s are fine as are 109s. I miss my 4.01 spit already http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Is anyone else finding this?

FoolTrottel
10-19-2005, 01:38 PM
Just tried the SpitIXc LF (Cw) in the QMB.
With some targets to shoot at. (w/o them shooting back)

What I found was: Go easy on the controls. Much better.

Next I'm gonna try to change sensitivity settings, see if that'll help a bit.
(Seems I can't control myself controlling my controller in a smooth way ... )

faustnik
10-19-2005, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
I used to be quite HOT in a MkVIII, now it is impossible to turn and aim, and lots of other spitfirey maneuvers. Its really my only gripe with 4.02, 51s and 47s are fine as are 109s. I miss my 4.01 spit already http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Is anyone else finding this?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif That's the funny thing about this patch, everybody seems to have a different perception. The Spits are fine for me in 4.02, in fact they turn much better relative to the Bf109s than in 4.01. Where I have an issue is the P-51, which works well for you. This patch must bring out more particulars with stick settings or something?????????

Doug_Thompson
10-19-2005, 02:05 PM
What bobble?

After looking for bobble most of last night, I took a Hellcat and gave it a Zero to fight. Yes, a Zero busts like a pinata when you hit it, but it's a maneuverable moving target.

With the throttle wide open and the convergence of the .50-cal. set at 200 meters, I pointed the nose at the target as soon as he came into view. I fired head to head at the Zero from more than 500m. At 450m, a burst put 11 holes through his starboard wing. If the burst had been a few feet farther to his left, his engine would have been conked.

Turning around at a still-screaming 110 percent power, I closed, then slowed just a bit to catch him in a near-vertical climb, then shoved the throttle all the way again. My second short burst ripped his damaged starboard wing off from 300 meters.

This appears to be a joystick setting issue. The only change in my joystick from the default settings is: The last column in "pitch" is set for 93 instead of 100.

hamselv2
10-19-2005, 02:56 PM
I've now flown online approximately 1 hour in a Spit Mk5b LF CW, and it's as ROCK STEADY as in 4.01 ! When comparing to the bouncing Spit Mk9c LF CW (see my reply earlier in the thread) there is a BIG difference.
As I've seen other 4.02 planes being 'non wobbling', my observations lead me to the conclusion that it's only SOME particular planes that have had their flight model changed in a way so that they wobble. I think that it's not the joystick sensitivity in general that has been changed.

Cyrano
10-19-2005, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by CivilDog:
A huge part of the problem is that this game has been patched so many times, with each patch causing some big across the board changes back and forth, that it's impossible to tell if any of it is accurate anymore.

First the 190's are too weak, now too strong, then back to weak, now they burn like a Zero....

50' scatter like shotguns, then shoot like lasers, then maybe-not sure porked, now they seem fine...

Planes too fast, too stable, unstable, fly like pigs, the P-47 too fast, too slow, now the 109's are like cars on rails, the Mustangs wings fall off when the pilot sneezes, the Cobras tumble, they don't tumble enough....

After all this nonsense it's fast getting impossible to have any trust in the flight or damage models at all. This game han't been evolving at all - it just wobbles back and forth like the nose on the planes.

4.01 was just fine, except for some minor damage modeling which should have been left alone after 3.04....ahhhh! See what I mean!?


I agree completely and have been arguing this point for many patches now. Futhermore, once again we have a patch that comes out with no information from someone directly employed by Maddox. No one to explain what they tried to do, what to expect, how to make certain adjustments (if neccesary) etc...
Is it too much to ask then to get some sort of explanation other than two lines in the read me text saying "slight FM changes" ???

LeOs.K_Walstein
10-19-2005, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Tully__:
I'm going to quote something I wrote last month in another thread:
[QUOTE]Aerodynamic simulation in PC simulators has come a long way in the last 10-15 years...

THANK YOU, TULLY, FOR POSTING YOUR WRITING. It was interesting to read. I had not noticed it earlier.

I`m very, VERY HAPPY with the new FM and after having read your writing I understand a bit more. You see, sometimes I feel like a fool because I like this FM...when reading other people complaining about this and that. I don´t understand anything about programming and the hard criticism (by some people) makes me "nervous": am I stupid or something as I don´t suffer that much about aeroplane swaying a bit---just to give one example.

Now I understad a bit more about the problems Oleg & team have had to solve in patch after patch. I also realize that none of the FM:s have been "unreal". They have been "real" from one- or another point of view. And I think I have not been stupid for all the time I have enjoyed this sim even if there have been more or less "killing" criticism available day after day! This has been a good simulator from the beginning and my opinnion is, that it has improved all the time. I cannot express myself in technical words but one thing I can say: this FM (4.02) feels good to fly. But all the previous FM:s felt good to fly as well. That is my opinnion (and flying this sim is my hobby) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . I am happy to do this and now, when I have read your writing - Tully - I understand a bit more and I can appreciate this sim more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

On the basis of your most explenatory writing, Tully, I now "feel free" to enjoy this sim whatever the FM may be (I´ve liked it all the time). As one of my good friend told me (he is a real pilot): According to the limitations of the PC this sim is as accurate as it can be, for one way or another; for it cannot be totally accurate due to the limits of our computers!

I enjoy much and I hope you all would do as well!

Thank you Tully for your good post,
Wallstein

Spook57
10-21-2005, 01:09 AM
I can only comment on the FW190. I have been flying the A-8 for a few months and was just beginning to get halfway decent in it when.... What was already a fairly unstable ship has become almost impossible to control. I have tried all of the other FW190 A-x models, with pretty much the same results. There is an increase in instability, very obvious when viewing the a/c from outside with no stick input, despite my best efforts to trim it. It also seems to be more prone to stalling/spinning with the slightest pull back on the stick (yes I have recalibrated since the patch). Whether this is realistic or not I don't know. Guess I'll just have to learn to fly it all over again.

Doctor-Pain
10-21-2005, 01:30 AM
@Spook57:
I almost only fly the FW A8/9 and sometimes the D9. For the A series I noticed that they are a little more unstable, but this is in my oppinion more a subjectiv impression cause by the controls, especially the rudder is more sensitive know and also the roll rate improved. I just adjusted the curve of the rudder axis and put some filter on and it handels almost similar to 4.01.
The good point about the FW is, that I feel it got some extra HP's, at least it climbs and accelerates a little better know from my feeling. But this feeling could also be caused by the fact that it is just more stable in low speeds (you can climb and turn with 300 IAS know).
The bad point is that the old "I have a little hole in the wing and can' t fly anymore" problem is back.

Freelancer-1
10-21-2005, 01:56 AM
Hi

I've done some more testing now. I'm up to three planes and five hours of 4.02.

I think my version of the patch is porked!!

My planes are rock steady. I have no problems at all with this bobble wobble, and I hit what I shoot at just as well as before.

I feel a little left out as I have nothing to whine about except the whiners themselves. And I'll happily keep doing that as long as I keep seeing people doing five minute QMBs and deciding the now know enough to comment like they have a clue. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

MEGILE
10-21-2005, 02:39 AM
Maybe it is Oleg over-correcting...

In one of the 4.02 betas.. the P-47s nose was rock solid... 0 wobble.

carguy_
10-21-2005, 02:50 AM
I applied some filtering,added a deadband to pitch control and rudder and all wobbling planes are very stable.The wobble is not annoying now though it prevents long shots from being accurate.I did manage to score a 280m kill with an MK108 and that is something IMO.

My perception on the P51 is it is now faster but I see no change in .50cal be it bigger ROF,desync or power.

Te_Vigo
10-21-2005, 08:53 AM
Yep....adding filter to the rudder settles everything down, at least here.
(unless of course I'mm too drunk)

The head movement is definitely different.
Look close in at the flight panel and wobble the rudder, to see this.

I run my X52 starting at 40 curved up to 85 in control settings and added 4 notches of filter to the rudder.

mm-hmmm it has a nice feel to it but when ya lose control it's a b1tch

an aside.....if'n ya new 81.85 drivers drop your monitor to almost black - shutdown turn of the 'puter and the monitor, wait a minute or two, then fire it all up again and don't whatever ya do....touch the colour temp selection.
(Sony CPDE220/E220E)

A new section in the ctrl panel

jds1978
10-21-2005, 01:01 PM
roger that...filter and deadband to the pitch and yaw have worked wonders....

for the record it took me 3 days to get my joystick settings right for 4.01

3-4hrs of goofing w/ the settings for this patch

AFJ_Locust
10-21-2005, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Interesting how the Spits, P51s, P47s, etc have this drunken-like behavior of bobbling all over the sky even with minimum input. Try to aim the guns, good luck. They behave as if they have NO vertical stab. No such problems in the LaGGs, Yaks or 109s.

http://www.toyadz.com/toyadz/kidstuff/weebles1_192x284.jpg

iv noticed that with the 51,47 how ever i find the 190 and 109k to have simulure effect. maby slightly less. but i to noticed the la-7 flys solid as a rock. i have not "tested" the yaks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. i sure hope thay change it. its the same effect that was most noticble on the p-47 in 4.01m . it just seems to have spread and gotten worse.

nice pic by the way LOL </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


THANK GOD IM NOT ALONE IN THIS !!!

I thought I was going to be at war with everyone because Im experiancing everything you guys are saying here, Maybe Oleg is trying to KILL IL2?

Sounds crazy but man this is like flying baloons with wings they bounce & yaw wildley everywhere

I LOVED 401 compared to this

These are my stick settings for my
CH Stick & Throttle

1X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 97 0
1Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 97 0

These settings are very conservative

Ive tryed at least 30 differant Variations Using Il2 Sticks to generate many differant sensitivity configs then tested them all back to back to back in qmb and online ITS ALL bad!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

From 100 acrose the board to, you name it.

Its all bad

VW-IceFire
10-21-2005, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Interesting how the Spits, P51s, P47s, etc have this drunken-like behavior of bobbling all over the sky even with minimum input. Try to aim the guns, good luck. They behave as if they have NO vertical stab. No such problems in the LaGGs, Yaks or 109s.

http://www.toyadz.com/toyadz/kidstuff/weebles1_192x284.jpg

iv noticed that with the 51,47 how ever i find the 190 and 109k to have simulure effect. maby slightly less. but i to noticed the la-7 flys solid as a rock. i have not "tested" the yaks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. i sure hope thay change it. its the same effect that was most noticble on the p-47 in 4.01m . it just seems to have spread and gotten worse.

nice pic by the way LOL </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


THANK GOD IM NOT ALONE IN THIS !!!

I thought I was going to be at war with everyone because Im experiancing everything you guys are saying here, Maybe Oleg is trying to KILL IL2?

Sounds crazy but man this is like flying baloons with wings they bounce & yaw wildley everywhere

I LOVED 401 compared to this Oleg we need a FIX </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No your not alone in this...something is terribly wrong for some people and just perfectly fine for others.

For me it is totally uncontrollable.

AFJ_Locust
10-21-2005, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Sidewinder PP2....all planes bounce and wobble like crazed drunken maniacs.

Yak-9, 109 (the least), Spitfire is completely unstable, FW190, P-47, Ki-61...

I haven't found a non-bouncing wobbly plane yet...

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Yes this is what I have in the game, Ive done EVERYTHING concevable to make it stop

Ive reset everything to default then fly then go back & reset my normal settings

Including SOUND VIDEO and everything in the game
also I reinstalled my sticks drivers Ive tweeked the hell out of my sticks sensitivity settings to make some form of normal flight it also seems like my torque is in reverse from what it should be ?

O well maybe oleg will fix it


Right now Im doing a total fresh Install From 0

If that dosent fix it then Im going back to 401
Untill Oleg fixes this mess

Xiolablu3
10-21-2005, 07:16 PM
Count me in as one witht he big wobble problem http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Looking for a fix.

Tried changing joystick settings to very low at the start increasing towards the end until I cant go any further. (1,2,4,6,9,13 etc is about as low as you can get) adn many other settings, tried filtering.

This has made it a bit better but its still massively wobbly. Plabnes like the 190 are now just a wobbling mess and almost impossible to fly.

I use a gameport MS Precoision Pro, does the gameport have anything to dowith it I wonder>?

AFJ_TALON
10-21-2005, 07:30 PM
I don't understand the bobbleing planes period not only with the american aspect but also all other forms of plane set's.

How is it that I can fly at speeds over 500 and pull back slowly on the stick for a shot and the nose of any aircraft just bounce all around. that much force over any elevator flaps stablizers also in adition with trim added should not happen or am I wrong. I feel like I am flying a acrobatic plane in an air show.

I have tried so many different stick settings with the input devices in the game it's not even funny I'm out of idea's so is it a bug or is it me?

PFSamwise
10-21-2005, 09:30 PM
From what I see, there are too many seasoned pilots of IL2 that are noticing the wobbley FM of the new patch. I too tried the patch and did find the P-47's, which everyone already knows was about the most stable gunplatform due to its wieght, does wobble alot with slight stick inputs. I do not buy the idea that its just due to not being used to the new FM; any seasoned pilot knows how to give a small amount of rudder input, so its not like all these reports are from noobs. The few people that flat out contradict these claims seem to be mostly Axis pilots who I understand do not like the loss of the prop pitch advantage.

Nevertheless, there's just too many reports of an unstable FM to ignore. Many of these reports also come with explainations of different attempts to counter the instability by changing settings and other things, so it's not like people are not trying to adjust. I appreciate the effort put forth to make a flight sim that's so far better than any others available, but I think it's disappointing to see so many obvious FM characteristics that deviate from well-known facts of the popular planes. I do thank the programmers for working out Nvidia bugs and the speed characteristics of some of the planes. All in all, this game is way ahead of any other WWII flight sim, and I do enjoy it alot. I guess alot of us have certain expectation from what we read and hear about these planes.

Von_Rat
10-21-2005, 09:36 PM
The few people that flat out contradict these claims seem to be mostly Axis pilots who I understand do not like the loss of the prop pitch advantage.



Excellant post, except for the above.

you know i was reading your post agreeing with it, till i read this.

there went your credability.

VW-IceFire
10-21-2005, 10:34 PM
Alright...I'm making a new post with a potential fix. May want to revert to 4.01 and then download 4.02 again.

FatBoyHK
10-22-2005, 03:28 AM
I overcame the problem already, by toning down the senistivity... But by doing that, I actually give up some of the turning potential I have on my plane....

if every plane has this problem, then yes I am ok with this solution.... but seem not, some plane are much more stable. I gonna do more test so that I can figure over which people does and which plane doesn't, may be there is a pattern?

NorrisMcWhirter
10-22-2005, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The few people that flat out contradict these claims seem to be mostly Axis pilots who I understand do not like the loss of the prop pitch advantage.



Excellant post, except for the above.

you know i was reading your post agreeing with it, till i read this.

there went your credability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I concur. Of course, he completely forgot that most of the Axis pilots I've seen complaining fly 190s..and they don't have a lot to gain from prop pitch.

Ta,
Norris

NorrisMcWhirter
10-22-2005, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Alright...I'm making a new post with a potential fix. May want to revert to 4.01 and then download 4.02 again.

Ice, before you install, try to get a file/dir compare utility (e.g. Beyond Compare); you can just unzip the patch files to a folder and compare them with your il-2 folder.

If you do a binary/CRC compare, you'll be left in no doubt whatsoever as to whether your current patch was the problem.

Ta,
Norris

AFJ_TALON
10-22-2005, 08:19 AM
I just want to add that this IMO is one of the better patches that I have encountered yet. I hate to sound like I am gripping and am trying very hard to understand and deal with the current situation of the unstable plane FM platform. I agree with samwise that this is one of the better Prop games I have encountered. I just hate to think that I have wasted so much of my personal time in this game to never achieve MY full potential due to the lack of stability my favorite planes. I also wanted to add that I have noticed and wanted to see if any others have noticed that the new P-47 44 with the 150 Octane boost had weeker 50. cals than the other 50. cal planes in the game. I have pulled in behind an AI Dora with the earlier model Mustangs and 47's and flamed them with 5 to 6 second burst but when I use the latest Jug it takes three times as much Ammo to down it. Has anyone else noticed this?

Von_Rat
10-22-2005, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The few people that flat out contradict these claims seem to be mostly Axis pilots who I understand do not like the loss of the prop pitch advantage.



Excellant post, except for the above.

you know i was reading your post agreeing with it, till i read this.

there went your credability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I concur. Of course, he completely forgot that most of the Axis pilots I've seen complaining fly 190s..and they don't have a lot to gain from prop pitch.

Ta,
Norris </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



oddly enough the fw flys ok for me, its the p51 im complaining is to bouncy, and im mainly a blue pilot. i like flying p51 when i go red but its to bouncy for me.

PFSamwise
10-22-2005, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The few people that flat out contradict these claims seem to be mostly Axis pilots who I understand do not like the loss of the prop pitch advantage.



Excellant post, except for the above.

you know i was reading your post agreeing with it, till i read this.

there went your credability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, touchy. Strange since I used the word FEW and not ALL, so it really didn't apply to all Axis pilots, but anyhoo.....I have taken the time to try a few things offline. I have seen the arguement that it is simply getting used to the FM that's the problem. However, flying without any air to air combat going on, I would concentrate on the reaction of the plane after giving rudder input on the various planes. Just about all of them sway a bit from side to side even after giving only a slight amound of left or right rudder and slowly releasing. It's characteristics like this that I think most ppl have a problem with. I know many of us are a bit crazy about WWII planes so we've acquired various sources of information. I myself purchased an old Army Air Corps video that introduces the P-51B and explains the flight characteristics. One of the things shown on the demo flight is that the 51 is so stable it likes to correct itself during flight. The pilot yawed over and the 51 gently brought the nose back forward. The pilot stated the mustang did not like to yaw much and that the stability was a plus in countering stall spins. Anyone else watch this video?

Anyway, aside from some dissappointing FM characteristics, I love flying the game and really appreciate that it's not a microsoft flight simulator. My only dream on this game is for someone to host a massive bombing raid where 30 to 40 B-25's or He-111's fly in formation and bomb a single area target. Man the devistation would be awesome.

AFJ_Locust
10-23-2005, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
OK. So, .50-cal are deadly now, only you can't hit anything with them.

Yep

thinking of haveing a revolt & going back to 401m

AFJ_Locust
10-23-2005, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The few people that flat out contradict these claims seem to be mostly Axis pilots who I understand do not like the loss of the prop pitch advantage.


Excellant post, except for the above.

you know i was reading your post agreeing with it, till i read this.

there went your credability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I concur. Of course, he completely forgot that most of the Axis pilots I've seen complaining fly 190s..and they don't have a lot to gain from prop pitch.

Ta,
Norris </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



oddly enough the fw flys ok for me, its the p51 im complaining is to bouncy, and im mainly a blue pilot. i like flying p51 when i go red but its to bouncy for me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Trampoline comes to mind

or ballon with wings and an engine

AFJ_Locust
10-23-2005, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
100% agree CivilDog. Which version of FB reality is the right one. To many changes from patch to patch but there all supposed to be correct.

Make your mind up Oleg. Please.

Ive said that 100 Times

been flamed 1000 of times for it....

I give up oleg is gona finaly win & close this sim down

Tachyon1000
10-23-2005, 12:45 AM
Stop playing.