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View Full Version : WW1 and 2 - Credit where credit is due



Stevepine
03-12-2006, 10:57 PM
I say this as a Brit. But I think that the Russian's role in both World wars in very rarely glorified. What was it in WW2? 20 million war dead?

And I have no idea of the figures in WW1.

I find U571 so distasteful. OK I mean I know thats just cos im British and I know who really cracked the whole Enigma thing. But Americans seem to never lose the appetite of congratulating themselves... in this case.. even for things they didnt do. Also has anyone noticed how in Titanic ( another terrible work of fiction , presenting itself as 100% fact ) all the good guys are Irish and Americans and how all the cowards are English...

Now I know the natural thing to say in response is chill out these are merely movies... but Im sure a lot of people who watch U571 and Titanic mistakenly believe them.

Goose_Green
03-13-2006, 12:47 AM
I'm a fellow Brit too, but I hate to disapoint you but the Polish and the French were very instrumental in the early days in cracking the whole Enigma thing. The Poles were the first to crack it while the French had a spy of German heritage that revealed certian secrets that helped later on. Obviously with the fall of Europe (short of the channel) everything was run at Bletchley Park and eventually a whole army of people were involved with the cracking of the codes. And when the USA entered the war they were instrumental in constructing the many boombes required to break the hundreds of daily codes sent by the German Armed Forces.

But, I too found the U-751 film very distastful - typical of Hollywood films of late - re-writing history very incorrectly. As I understand it there was a lot of outcry from Britian about the film and in the end the end credits showed the proper credit is given to Fasson and Grazier and others involved who were the first to capture the Enigma from a U Boat.

Josef_Reiter
03-13-2006, 03:26 AM
The thing I found very distastful about U-571 was the part where the Captian ordered the surviors shot in thier life boats with MG-42's. I find it distasteful by the way the movie makers shot the scene. They again give a bad image of the german fighting man. Durring the scene the people in the room sneered and shook thier heads when the MG-42's opened fire. I couldn't help but think that given the situation Americans, British, French ect ect... would have done exactly the same thing and not thought twice about it if thier LIVES depended on it. I know I would have... but hey Im an evil German haha http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

vanjast
03-13-2006, 03:49 AM
As a person from another part of the world, Russians also had the enigma machine and were breaking the codes (the german army codes AFAIK). If they were better than Bletchley I don't know.

The 20 million, I think, includes a large portion of the civilian population overrun by the german army. The Russian forces had such a high number of casualties, mainly due to the 'Purges' of Stalin, who replaced them with inefficient 'party member' Officers.
Compare this to the approximately 3 million german caualties on the Eastern front, gives a clearer picture of wartime leadership quality.

Whenever a movie comes out of Hollywood, it is going to have American bias. This is their market. It it was anti-American I don't think it would sell, and the directors would be on the next CIA plane to 'nowhere'.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

hueywolf123
03-13-2006, 01:30 PM
At the end of the day, hollywood **** - is hollywood ****. The only people who believe any of that garbage are an extremely small minority. Lets not dump on Americans, as we should not tar them all with the same brush. I'm an Aussie, and we too must live with a stereotypical image. OK, we may not be as self congratulatory as the Hollywood script writers/directors, but for their salary package, I may be tempted to distort truth every so-often

The_Silent_O
03-13-2006, 02:40 PM
If "Hollywood" produced facts...it'd be called a "documentary"

I stand here as an American, and declare that the movie "U-571" was the biggest piece of doggy doo doo I've seen about WWII Submarine warfare...It sits in Hell with that other movie "Pearl Harbor". It's History for the MTV generation!

The next thing you know, the Americans will take credit for sinking the Bismarck and Tirpitz!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif But we did sink the Yamato and Mushashi http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Hoatee
03-13-2006, 03:33 PM
For a film that was specifically centred around the capture of an enigma machine from a German submarine, U-571 is utterly digraceful and devoid of the real facts - namely that the British captured it.

crazy_hacker
03-13-2006, 05:33 PM
Well, speaking as an American, if somebody doesn't know the true history of this, they wouldn't know what an enigma was, what its importance is, and would most likely pass it off as a simple war movie with no *real* story or plot. Then again, I haven't seen this in a long time so I dont know if it really pushes that Americans supposedly captured this machine and if it goes into detail about how important it was.

DarkOmen13
03-13-2006, 05:45 PM
My problems with the film are that regardless of the plot, they had all the knowlege and technology to make the u boat etc totally realistic and it's like they just did'nt bother.
Someone who knows nothing of the subject will know even less than when he/she started.
The biggest problem i have is the shooting people in the water, it's an insult to the germans who served on u boats some of whom are still alive.
To me, that's not very nice.

D.

Silva_Bullet
03-14-2006, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Josef_Reiter:
The thing I found very distastful about U-571 was the part where the Captian ordered the surviors shot in thier life boats with MG-42's. I find it distasteful by the way the movie makers shot the scene. They again give a bad image of the german fighting man. Durring the scene the people in the room sneered and shook thier heads when the MG-42's opened fire. I couldn't help but think that given the situation Americans, British, French ect ect... would have done exactly the same thing and not thought twice about it if thier LIVES depended on it. I know I would have... but hey Im an evil German haha http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I seem to recall reading about an incident involving "Mush" Morton, a famous American sub skipper, in which his boat torpedoed a Japanese troop carrier, and then surfaced in order to machine-gun the surviving Japanese soldiers (please correct me if I'm wrong). The idea behind this, I think, was to ensure that those troops would not be rescued and sent back to the front against Allied troops.

Was this "right"? Well, from my office chair in my air-conditioned office, surrounded by volumes of books entitled "hindsight", I find it atrocious that helpless men, floundering in the ocean should be gunned down in cold blood.

However, I have not ever, and will never, face war. I do understand that in war, atrocious acts must be visited upon your enemy, before he can visit them on you. That's not pretty, but war never is. Both sides commited these acts. Distasteful as it might be, all our heroes stooped to a lower level, at one stage or another. And that's because they were (gasp) human. Fallable.

What I do think is unfair, is that when these acts are portrayed, we only see German soldiers, holding an MP40... seldom a GI, holding a Tommy gun. But, as mentioned above, this is due to the morons in 'La-la land'.

People who actually take the time to read a little history will see right through this Hollywood bullcrap. The real pity is what it's doing to the minds of the youth of today, poor little buggers.

(This coming from a South African, of Portuguese descent, btw)

ndladis
03-14-2006, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by crazy_hacker:
Well, speaking as an American, if somebody doesn't know the true history of this, they wouldn't know what an enigma was, what its importance is, and would most likely pass it off as a simple war movie with no *real* story or plot. Then again, I haven't seen this in a long time so I dont know if it really pushes that Americans supposedly captured this machine and if it goes into detail about how important it was.

If I remember well, at the end there was a dedication to all men and women who assisted on braking the enigma code without compensation to those who really did. So it tries to passes as a documentary somehow.
The problem is that they are using a real U-boat number which actually involves real men with families etc. Consider the children/grandchildren of the Captain/crew of the U-boat going to cinema and see their relative ordering the killing of wrecked seamen.
Only one case was confirmed of shooting at seamen and definitely this is not U-571.

ndladis
03-14-2006, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Silva_Bullet:



Was this "right"? Well, from my office chair in my air-conditioned office, surrounded by volumes of books entitled "hindsight", I find it atrocious that helpless men, floundering in the ocean should be gunned down in cold blood.

However, I have not ever, and will never, face war. I do understand that in war, atrocious acts must be visited upon your enemy, before he can visit them on you. That's not pretty, but war never is. Both sides commited these acts. Distasteful as it might be, all our heroes stooped to a lower level, at one stage or another. And that's because they were (gasp) human. Fallable.

What I do think is unfair, is that when these acts are portrayed, we only see German soldiers, holding an MP40... seldom a GI, holding a Tommy gun. But, as mentioned above, this is due to the morons in 'La-la land'.

(This coming from a South African, of Portuguese descent, btw)

I come from my fathers side from traditionally seafarer family. I can assure you that from ethos point of view, doing so is not only an atrocity and a war crime, but one of the most despicable acts. When a seaman looses his vessel he is not struggling with enemy but with sea. And every officer of every navy should know that. but..
O tempora o mores!

JU88
03-14-2006, 03:34 AM
Yep, with out the Ruskies the war would have dragged on much longer! In fact it may not evan
have been winable at all.

The nazis hated communists almost as much as they did Jews, Russian Soliders and civilians didnt get the same treatment as british/american/french etc, many of them were murdered in cold blood, So when the Russians pushed the germans back in 45 they killed just about every german they came accross, revenge I guess, the death toll on both sides was somthing you dont even want to think about.

Hoatee
03-14-2006, 03:53 AM
In the case of U-571, the makers could have at least specified and emphasized that it was all fiction and not fact. Take a look at the history of the U-571 and you'll know the movie is garbage.

The problem is, the vast majority of the audience have only a cursory interest in history. Hitler himself said that if you tell a lie often enough, the people will start to believe it.

ndladis
03-14-2006, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by Hoatee:
The problem is, the vast majority of the audience have only a cursory interest in history. Hitler himself said that if you tell a lie often enough, the people will start to believe it.

I think that Goebbels said that or not?

Sergeant_Uhanov
03-14-2006, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by Hoatee:
Hitler himself said that if you tell a lie often enough, the people will start to believe it.

It wasn't Hitler, Goebbles said that.

vanjast: the USSR losses are about 18 mln civilian and 11.8 mln army, fleet etc. The German losses on the East were about 8 mln. These are official Russian federation KGB (FSB) archive info, given in mud 1990's by a general who's name i forgot.

Hoatee
03-14-2006, 04:31 AM
It's in Mein Kampf - but perhaps my memory is failing me since its been a considerable number of years since I last read an English translation of it (and I ain't about to read it again - it's as bad, boring and bland as Das Kapital). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FDNYFAN
03-14-2006, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by Josef_Reiter:
The thing I found very distastful about U-571 was the part where the Captian ordered the surviors shot in thier life boats with MG-42's. I find it distasteful by the way the movie makers shot the scene. They again give a bad image of the german fighting man. Durring the scene the people in the room sneered and shook thier heads when the MG-42's opened fire. I couldn't help but think that given the situation Americans, British, French ect ect... would have done exactly the same thing and not thought twice about it if thier LIVES depended on it. I know I would have... but hey Im an evil German haha http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
The order not to pick up any survivors was really given by Hitler,because of an attack by a
(I believe it was a Brit) Destroyer and a few planes on a U-boot rescueing survivors of a ship they just sunk.
The german crew said it was the law of the sea to help survivors,even if you're the one that is responable for the sinking of their ship.
I don't know if Hitler gave the order to shoot them.

Hoatee
03-14-2006, 05:23 AM
Mein Kampf

Chapter VI : War Propoganda

'But the masses are slowmoving, and they always require a certain time before they are ready even to notice a thing, and only after the simplest ideas are repeated thousands of times will the masses finally remember them.'

Best to read the whole chapter.

The_Silent_O
03-14-2006, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Rafe1:
The order not to pick up any survivors was really given by Hitler,because of an attack by a
(I believe it was a Brit) Destroyer and a few planes on a U-boot rescueing survivors of a ship they just sunk.
The german crew said it was the law of the sea to help survivors,even if you're the one that is responable for the sinking of their ship.
I don't know if Hitler gave the order to shoot them.

Not Hitler, but Doenitz...but up until the S.S. Laconia incident, U-Boat Crews were allowed to provide aid and comfort.

Three U-boat crews tried to save as many lives as they could, until they were attacked by U.S. Aircraft.

After that, Doenitz disallowed any Aid and Comfort. It was the Laconia Incident which probably saved his neck from the noose at the Nurnberg War Crimes Trials, because up until then he expected his crews to provide comfort.

Good read here...

The Laconia Incident (http://uboat.net/ops/laconia.htm)

FDNYFAN
03-14-2006, 06:54 AM
I was not sure about the Hitler or the Destroyer but you corrected me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Celeon999
03-14-2006, 10:23 AM
It sits in Hell with that other movie "Pearl Harbor".


THE DIRECTORS !

They belong into hell ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif And some of the actors too.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


At this topic even Celeon gets religious
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

The_Silent_O
03-14-2006, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It sits in Hell with that other movie "Pearl Harbor".


THE DIRECTORS !

They belong into hell ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif And some of the actors too.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


At this topic even Celeon gets religious
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell me...You just loved the Hospital scene http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif...the director of photography for that scene must have been borrowed from a Hip-Hop video! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

But Kate Bleckinsales (sp?) does look nice in a uniform! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Kaleun1961
03-14-2006, 12:16 PM
What an awful movie! It was so bad, I was cheering for the IJN by the end of the movie.

Celeon999
03-14-2006, 12:17 PM
She looks very good in that red dress on the way to the hangar. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif


I guess there must have been some accidents on that air base that day.

Dozens of airmen walking against walls or letting tools fall on their feet and a lot of planes that were not ready in time.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now we know why ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But with all those beautiful nurses in that hospital....... Celeon would look for a hammer and a good spot to hit his thumb with it.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Kaleun1961
03-14-2006, 12:24 PM
Be careful with that hammer and self-inflicted wounds. Remember the hospital scene in "Stalingrad"? The doctor looks at some soldier's foot injury and sees powder marks and then the MP's dump him from the stretcher and shoot him with their MP40 SMG's.

Hoatee
03-14-2006, 12:30 PM
Pearl Harbour I found to be much more palatable.

Celeon999
03-14-2006, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
Be careful with that hammer and self-inflicted wounds. Remember the hospital scene in "Stalingrad"? The doctor looks at some soldier's foot injury and sees powder marks and then the MP's dump him from the stretcher and shoot him with their MP40 SMG's.


Ahhh yes those super fast flying court martials or "fliegende Standgerichte" how we called them

Only a judge in form of an officer no lawyers no defence and only one sentence. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif


But there were no cold blooded doctors or guards with mp40s at hawaii.


Only young beautiful nurses. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif
Celeon would hope for a lot of attention from them as beeing an in battle wounded war hero.


"The Japanese tortured me with an hammer !" "Look here !" "But i was strong, I told them nothing"


"Ohhhhh Celeon you are such a hero http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif "

"Yes baby , i am" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SquidND
03-14-2006, 12:45 PM
Yeah, it was a crappy movie (U-571) and I didnt even bother to watch Pearl Harbor. If you wanna ruin a war movie just put a love story in it, with the possible exception being 'Enemy at the Gates'.

HeibgesU999
03-14-2006, 12:54 PM
I was disappointed by Saving Private Ryan because of the cookiecutter way the Germans and the Americans are portrayed.

The Americans are boyscouts and the Germans are mindless killers.

I just rewatched Bilox Blues, and was reminded what a brilliant movie it is. A kinder gentler Naked and the Dead, but with real truth nonetheless.

The_Silent_O
03-14-2006, 12:58 PM
Although there was no love story in "Stalingrad"...I did find it inplausible that the young soviet lady they met in the beginning of the film was the same one leading them out of Stalingrad in the end.

Good film...heads and tails above "Enemy at the Gates"

The_Silent_O would also fake injury to receive a sponge bath by Nurse Kate ...."what's that, some rare tropical skin disease?"

I wonder if they would ever consider making a movie abour Guy Sajer's Book "The forgotten soldier"