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View Full Version : For Who complain with the 20mm german guns.



filiperafaeli
07-25-2005, 01:39 AM
Look this, guys.

The 20mm power in camera. Look how many bullets a LA5 can eat.

http://www.sigx.net/russr/ww2-footage/FW190La5.wmv

Filipe

Hoarmurath
07-25-2005, 02:17 AM
Nice, can we have now a video doing it with its 20mm instead of its two engine cowling 13mm HMG?

FritzGryphon
07-25-2005, 02:31 AM
That does look like a cannon, but just one, not two or four like you'd expect on an A8. Must be mislabeled.

Bah, it sucks to see the same grainy clips, over and over. Can't wait for my guncam DVD to arrive...

BigganD
07-25-2005, 04:21 AM
The slow rolling aircraft reminds me of 04 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

AWL_Frog
07-25-2005, 05:57 AM
BigganD, you know that this clip is in slow motion, do you?

VW-IceFire
07-25-2005, 07:28 AM
Its not really eating that much 20mm hits. I think I counted 5 or 6 contacts with the aircraft. It looks more or less like the way things are now.

You can take hits on a La-5FN from MG151/20...its fairly durable. That FW pilot never really put his guns on that target all the way...if he'd contacted a few more in the central fuselage he'd probably shred it.

Instead there was a couple of hits on the trailing edge of the wing (just barely scraped the edge), a hit in the rear elevator, a few more. Looks like off camera maybe a hit to the engine.

To my eye...not any solid hits.

Big_Bad_Wulf
07-25-2005, 08:41 AM
It really looks like nose mounted guns and not like 4 20mm cannons. The tracers are to close and the guncam is in the left wing.

fordfan25
07-25-2005, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Big_Bad_Wulf:
It really looks like nose mounted guns and not like 4 20mm cannons. The tracers are to close and the guncam is in the left wing.

i noted that as well. eather way i bet some body had a rough time explaining to stalin why thay need more underwear shipments.

LeadSpitter_
07-29-2005, 08:43 PM
3.04 had 20mm spot on but some of the insane dms made it appear 20mm was weak, the still could explode a spit 51 47 38 in 4-6 hits in 3.04.

lagg la yak hurricane beufighter 190 109g6-k4 etc and other bombers.

theres really no difference now in 4.01 in mg151 then 30mm mk108 mk103s against fighters, they explode in 2-3 hits 1 sec burst for US brit, russian take 5-6 hits to explode into nothing, dms are still majorly porked.

A.K.Davis
07-29-2005, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
theres really no difference in mg151 then 30mm mk108 mk103s, mg151 is just as powerful and much much more accurate with a higher rof


You're joking, right?

LeadSpitter_
07-29-2005, 08:48 PM
Absolutley not.

Fehler
07-29-2005, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
3.04 had 20mm spot on but some of the insane dms made it appear 20mm was weak, the still could explode a spit 51 47 38 in 4-6 hits in 3.04.

lagg la yak hurricane beufighter 190 109g6-k4 etc and other bombers.

theres really no difference now in 4.01 in mg151 then 30mm mk108 mk103s against fighters, they explode in 2-3 hits 1 sec burst for US brit, russian take 5-6 hits to explode into nothing, dms are still majorly porked.

It is amazing how one can just ignore 30 pages of testing material and just spout lies... clearly pathological.

Here is your treat...

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/whiner.jpg

VW-IceFire
07-29-2005, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
3.04 had 20mm spot on but some of the insane dms made it appear 20mm was weak, the still could explode a spit 51 47 38 in 4-6 hits in 3.04.

lagg la yak hurricane beufighter 190 109g6-k4 etc and other bombers.

theres really no difference now in 4.01 in mg151 then 30mm mk108 mk103s against fighters, they explode in 2-3 hits 1 sec burst for US brit, russian take 5-6 hits to explode into nothing, dms are still majorly porked.
Are you playing Battlefield 1942 and got directed to the wrong forum? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Honestly now...

AerialTarget
07-29-2005, 10:39 PM
You do realize that sometimes only one gun had tracers?

faustnik
07-30-2005, 12:17 AM
AT,

If you are comparing guns, compare the Mg151 and Hispano. They are very similar in damage done in 4.01 as they should be.

Leadspitter whines just to hear himself whine. He whines here, in the HL chat, even in the Warclouds message bar, he always has. Leadspitter himself declared that firing Mg151 in 3.04 was like firing tamotos at the enemy. Now, he switches gears for more whining mileage. Same story, every time.

Leadspitter on 3.04 Mg151:
-------------------------------
I find german 20mm to be incrediably weak this patch and that was my main choice of gun when flying german it seems almost useless now like its shooting rotten tomatos. Something changed that was not mentioned in the readme. Hopefully 3.05 will be much more enjoyable for all sides.
-------------------------------

OldMan____
07-30-2005, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
AT,

If you are comparing guns, compare the Mg151 and Hispano. They are very similar in damage done in 4.01 as they should be.

Leadspitter whines just to hear himself whine. He whines here, in the HL chat, even in the Warclouds message bar, he always has. Leadspitter himself declared that firing Mg151 in 3.04 was like firing tamotos at the enemy. Now, he switches gears for more whining mileage. Same story, every time.

Leadspitter on 3.04 Mg151:
-------------------------------
I find german 20mm to be incrediably weak this patch and that was my main choice of gun when flying german it seems almost useless now like its shooting rotten tomatos. Something changed that was not mentioned in the readme. Hopefully 3.05 will be much more enjoyable for all sides.
-------------------------------

I always said leadspitter whining was overmodeled...

Vipez-
07-30-2005, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
theres really no difference in mg151 then 30mm mk108 mk103s, mg151 is just as powerful and much much more accurate with a higher rof


You're joking, right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, he is just Lead$hitter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LeadSpitter_
07-30-2005, 11:23 AM
Least I posted the tracks to back up what i say, then no one says nothing except a few that im at .20 distance.

This is when the onwhine cries were saying it takes 20 hits to shoot down a p47, remember when i posted the track in 3.04 of the g2 firing single 20mm hits on 8 p-47 tails 4 shots to explode or rip off tail from .20 range.

Im sure many seen the track it dont matter much at all. Vipez- I dont appreciate the little name calling either.

OldMan____
07-30-2005, 12:19 PM
The fact that you can make it sometimes does not prove anything. Show me a 40 planes shot down in a row with 35 or more being shot with 3-4 rounds and we may listen.

faustnik
07-30-2005, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
This is when the one says nothing except a few that im at .20 onwhine cries were saying it takes 20 hits to shoot down a p47, remember when i posted the track in 3.04 of the g2 firing single 20mm hits on 8 p-47 tails 4 shots to explode or rip off tail from .20 range.


As far as the P-47 DM, I agree it should be strengthened, so should the American bomber fleet. Say there is an error with the Mg151 and you have to claim errors with all the 20mm including the Hispano and ShVak. Relative strength is now historic, it wasn't in 3.04, as you said yourself Leadspitter.

AerialTarget
07-30-2005, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
If you are comparing guns, compare the Mg151 and Hispano. They are very similar in damage done in 4.01 as they should be.

No, I'm not comparing guns. I'm pointing out to those who are debating what type of guns are in the film that it's not necessarily only one gun firing, since sometimes only one gun had tracers. Therefore, they very well might be the normal Focke-Wulf cannons.

One thing is certain - they are not, as Hoarmurath implied, the small machine guns. They make very obvious explosions in the film.

A.K.Davis
07-30-2005, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
If you are comparing guns, compare the Mg151 and Hispano. They are very similar in damage done in 4.01 as they should be.

No, I'm not comparing guns. I'm pointing out to those who are debating what type of guns are in the film that it's not necessarily only one gun firing, since sometimes only one gun had tracers. Therefore, they very well might be the normal Focke-Wulf cannons.

One thing is certain - they are not, as Hoarmurath implied, the small machine guns. They make very obvious explosions in the film. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

MG131 had HE rounds.

Hoarmurath
07-30-2005, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
If you are comparing guns, compare the Mg151 and Hispano. They are very similar in damage done in 4.01 as they should be.

No, I'm not comparing guns. I'm pointing out to those who are debating what type of guns are in the film that it's not necessarily only one gun firing, since sometimes only one gun had tracers. Therefore, they very well might be the normal Focke-Wulf cannons.

One thing is certain - they are not, as Hoarmurath implied, the small machine guns. They make very obvious explosions in the film. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You haven't seen many guncam footage, don't you? When the camera is situated in the wing, the tracers always give the impression of coming from the bottom of the image. This because they are aligned with the guns. These tracers are coming from the top of the image. They are obviously not aligned with the camera, they come from much higher. Another point is that you can clearly see double tracers, close by. Tracers are never in succession in an ammo belt. Also, because of the focal (focus?) of the guncams, you usually see very clearly tracers from wing guns converging. These ones don't converge at all.

From all of that, it is easy to see that what you are seeing are two guns, close to each other, firing from a position much higher than the guncam. the only guns that can fire from this angle on a FW190 are the engine cowling MG.

faustnik
07-30-2005, 07:13 PM
AT,

Check out this one. You can clearly see the minengeschoss rounds from this Bf109E's MgFF. The hits look a lot like the ones in PF 4.01, a lot.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_files/Me109vSpitfire1.mpeg

FritzGryphon
07-30-2005, 09:16 PM
A 109E with a nose mounted MGFF with MG rounds?

A.K.Davis
07-30-2005, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
A 109E with a nose mounted MGFF with MG rounds?

Yes, some Bf-109Ds and some E-3s.

AerialTarget
07-30-2005, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
MG131 had HE rounds.

That's very interesting! That would explain why they are such a joke in the game. I'd always thought that Messershmitt must have been crazy to put those peashooters onto a fighter, but apparently the real thing had explosive rounds. I'm quite willing to believe this, but can you give me a source or two?


Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
From all of that, it is easy to see that what you are seeing are two guns, close to each other, firing from a position much higher than the guncam. the only guns that can fire from this angle on a FW190 are the engine cowling MG.

Are you deliberately ignoring my point? Knowing you, this is not unlikely. Why you would do so in this case boggles me, because I'm not trying to make any sort of statement about the German machine guns.

I will say this only one more time. Just because you do not see tracers from the cannons does not mean that they are not firing! It just might be that the cannons happen to have been loaded without tracers. As I said, it is not uncommon for only one (or two) guns to have tracers. As a matter of fact, what is really rare is for them all to have tracers like in the game. Can you think of any gun camera footage where there have been six guns all with tracers?

faustnik
07-30-2005, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
A 109E with a nose mounted MGFF with MG rounds?

Good catch, Gryphon, I think you are correct. That is probably a F or G with an Mg151 in the nose.

(Minengeschoss rounds were developed for the MgFF I think.)

faustnik
07-30-2005, 10:28 PM
That's very interesting! That would explain why they are such a joke in the game.

The Mg131 is much better than the Mg17 in PF. From close range it can do some damage.

Explosive rounds were developed for the Mg131, although the charge was not very large.

************************

Looking at the original poster's track, some of those hits could certainly be from an Mg151. The Fw190A8 might not have been using minengeschoss rounds in its load or the mine rounds never hit. It is very difficult to guage damage or count hits from that footage.

quiet_man
07-31-2005, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
...
I will say this only one more time. Just because you do not see tracers from the cannons does not mean that they are not firing! It just might be that the cannons happen to have been loaded without tracers. As I said, it is not uncommon for only one (or two) guns to have tracers. As a matter of fact, what is really rare is for them all to have tracers like in the game. Can you think of any gun camera footage where there have been six guns all with tracers?

I watched the track closely and could not see any explosions beside the tracer rounds

maybe the Lag was already damaged and he just wanted to finish without spending 20mm? He gets pretty close on firing, would have been dangerous to use 20mm at the last stages of the approach.

quiet_man

A.K.Davis
07-31-2005, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
MG131 had HE rounds.

That's very interesting! That would explain why they are such a joke in the game. I'd always thought that Messershmitt must have been crazy to put those peashooters onto a fighter, but apparently the real thing had explosive rounds. I'm quite willing to believe this, but can you give me a source or two? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

13 mm (MG 131) belt composition:
-1 Panzergranatpatrone L'spur o. Zerl
-2 Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur o. Zerl

The 13mm Panzergranatpatrone was a solid AP round. The Brandsprenggranatpatrone was a conventional HE/I round, a bored-out projectile filled with an explosive mixture. German armourers were warned that the first round fired had to be an AP round: The cap over the muzzle had to be destroyed first, and there was the possibility that the HE/I round would go off when it hit this. Note that for both rounds, tracer was chosen (L'spur, or Leuchtspur) but that there was no selfdestruction (o. Zerl, or ohne Zerlegerung).

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-am.html

AerialTarget
07-31-2005, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by quiet_man:
I watched the track closely and could not see any explosions beside the tracer rounds

With all due respect, you can not tell which explosions occurred from which rounds.

VW-IceFire
07-31-2005, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
A 109E with a nose mounted MGFF with MG rounds?

Good catch, Gryphon, I think you are correct. That is probably a F or G with an Mg151 in the nose.

(Minengeschoss rounds were developed for the MgFF I think.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah MG-FF/M. All MG-FF's in the game are actually MG-FF/M I'm told.

Yes thats definately a MG151 (probably a 151/20) being fired at that Spitfire. I think I counted one or two hits at the most.

Like the original post...the target didn't soak up hits but instead sustained a small number. Whats different here is that the hits are right on the wings and not on a tip of an aileron or tailplane.

Abbuzze
08-01-2005, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's very interesting! That would explain why they are such a joke in the game.

The Mg131 is much better than the Mg17 in PF. From close range it can do some damage.

Explosive rounds were developed for the Mg131, although the charge was not very large.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But for the destruction power of this 13mm HE, I fear this should not be overestimated, the 15mm HE was too weak to do serious damadge, so the smaller 13mm was even worse.

If I remember correct a british pilot in north africa said that the italian planes used 12.9mm HE rounds and they explode at the surface of his plane without damaging it serious.

HayateAce
08-01-2005, 11:08 AM
So who cares.

Luft player has crutch because he cried.

HORRIDO! is the cry, and is translate "Weak Luft-Player."

Blue player returns from playing IL2:

http://www.nla.gov.au/pub/nlanews/2000/october00/images/crying-child.jpg

p1ngu666
08-01-2005, 12:41 PM
didnt lw pilots call those mg guns doorknockers?

faustnik
08-01-2005, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
didnt lw pilots call those mg guns doorknockers?

Yeah, mg17s are referred to as "doorknockers". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The Germans used the same term for the 37mm Pak36 on the Ostfront. All they could do was irritate the T-34s.

quiet_man
08-01-2005, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by quiet_man:
I watched the track closely and could not see any explosions beside the tracer rounds

With all due respect, you can not tell which explosions occurred from which rounds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as the 190 guns were usualy set for convergence at 500m and the 20mm being in the wings, at the short distance the video shows there should be a distance between the tracer hits and 20mm explosions

at least I expect so
have lost my guncam videos at harddisc crash http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
maybe someone else as other videos from 190 to compare?

quiet_man

tigertalon
08-01-2005, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
13 mm (MG 131) belt composition:
-1 Panzergranatpatrone L'spur o. Zerl
-2 Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur o. Zerl


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/Mg151shellcomposition.jpg

A.K.Davis
08-01-2005, 07:51 PM
Cool, what's it say? Wait, I think I figured out most of it. This is a late war (1944+) ammo loadout, where pure incendiary (brandgranate) rounds replaced HE/I (brandsprengranate) rounds in German fighters. Yes?

JG5_UnKle
08-03-2005, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Wrong loadout of MG151/20 was fixed to historical loadout.

Thanks for making the sim more accurate Oleg!
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/nose/nosefire.gif



Wow agree 100% http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

HayateAce
08-03-2005, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
unoriginal non-funny gibber:

Yes Oleg thanks for G A M E P L A Y , so we can now have server with bluen players instead of 15 red vs 5 luft.

LaGG3 eat G2 for lunch, but I want history-right Bf109 so I can paint extra crosses on teh fuse. I want this whole **** LaGG covered in 109 wins. BogusFantasy 109 STILL cannot overcome VY23mm cannon!

I sent your wing home FedEx.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

fordfan25
08-03-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
This is when the one says nothing except a few that im at .20 onwhine cries were saying it takes 20 hits to shoot down a p47, remember when i posted the track in 3.04 of the g2 firing single 20mm hits on 8 p-47 tails 4 shots to explode or rip off tail from .20 range.


As far as the P-47 DM, I agree it should be strengthened, so should the American bomber fleet. Say there is an error with the Mg151 and you have to claim errors with all the 20mm including the Hispano and ShVak. Relative strength is now historic, it wasn't in 3.04, as you said yourself Leadspitter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmmmm, new found respect for you i have.....but still, the darkside clouds your mind it does.

ICDP
08-04-2005, 04:58 AM
Relative 20mm cannon strength in 4.01 is spot on IMHO, the area that needs fixed is the DM of some aircraft. Currently the Fw190s and Bf109s are able to absord too much Mg fire without fire or fuel leaks but they do eventually suffer from damage to crtitical areas. On the other hand the P47 is woefully underarmoured, a few mg hits to dead 6 will cause a smoking engine and a fuel leak. I have even had rudder failure in a P38 from a few mg hits fired from a Spitfire at a range of 500m+

So the problem is not the bullet/cannon round strenght but the DM's of some aircraft. It seems that is is quite a lottery to see which DM is messed up with each patch, this due to the fact there are a lot of flyables to get right each with patch.

It will be fixed thought, I have no doubt about this.

faustnik
08-04-2005, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by ICDP:
Relative 20mm cannon strength in 4.01 is spot on IMHO, the area that needs fixed is the DM of some aircraft. Currently the Fw190s and Bf109s are able to absord too much Mg fire without fire or fuel leaks but they do eventually suffer from damage to crtitical areas. On the other hand the P47 is woefully underarmoured, a few mg hits to dead 6 will cause a smoking engine and a fuel leak. I have even had rudder failure in a P38 from a few mg hits fired from a Spitfire at a range of 500m+

So the problem is not the bullet/cannon round strenght but the DM's of some aircraft. It seems that is is quite a lottery to see which DM is messed up with each patch, this due to the fact there are a lot of flyables to get right each with patch.

It will be fixed thought, I have no doubt about this.

Don't forget the IL-2. It was the "cement bomber" IRL but, in 4.01 it's more like the "plaster bomber". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif