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alert_1
01-09-2006, 04:22 AM
...nothing to be ashamed of, it seems it was valid tactics even for aces on Eastern front:
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lang.html
just notice the altitude http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

alert_1
01-09-2006, 04:22 AM
...nothing to be ashamed of, it seems it was valid tactics even for aces on Eastern front:
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lang.html
just notice the altitude http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Markku38
01-09-2006, 04:53 AM
Yup http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Look at heights numbers of victory 47, 49, 91, 92, 129, 130, 131, 132 & 140 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

The campaign which I now playing ( offline ), Laggs and I-16 goes somewhat that heights - I'm with them and my team think I'm grazy... I think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

neural_dream
01-09-2006, 05:08 AM
These were pretty normal altitudes for the Eastern Front. No large-scale bombings and no B-17s and Lancasters; so what's the point of going high? To dogfight with the clouds? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

The problem for the Germans were the Shturmoviks, which flew at 50m to take the BnZ advantage from the enemy fighters, protect their most vulnerable side, and give better view to their gunner, plus the whole point for them was tankbusting.

WOLFMondo
01-09-2006, 05:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
...nothing to be ashamed of, it seems it was valid tactics even for aces on Eastern front:
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lang.html
just notice the altitude http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was valid and happened every front. Dunno what this obsession is with people denying low altitude furballs ever happened. Seems people are not aware the VVS is an airforce mainly used for tactical support and both the RAF and USAF had tactical airforces specifically for ground support which included escorts and fighter sweeps on the deck.

SeaFireLIV
01-09-2006, 08:04 AM
"Quote: three RAF Spitfire fighters in five minutes"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

jensenpark
01-09-2006, 08:37 AM
And four mustangs in four minutes...

I wonder how these kill claims match up with official allied losses.

Always curious to match up when someone's log shows exact time, etc of a claim.

alert_1
01-09-2006, 08:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Quote: three RAF Spitfire fighters in five minutes" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It looks like in right hands Me109 was rather overmodelled http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kuna15
01-09-2006, 09:08 AM
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lang.html
17 months and 3 days. 403 missions. 173 kills. That is difficult to achieve even in Forgotten battles campaigns.

berg417448
01-09-2006, 09:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:


It was valid and happened every front. Dunno what this obsession is with people denying low altitude furballs ever happened. Seems people are not aware the VVS is an airforce mainly used for tactical support and both the RAF and USAF had tactical airforces specifically for ground support which included escorts and fighter sweeps on the deck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So true. You can find reports of very low level combat in many pilot biographies. I recall in the book "Wing Leader" Johnnie Johnson shot down a FW-190 which had just passed UNDER a power line. He also recounted having to fly down a road to escape AAA from a German airbase. He was flying low enough that bicylists ahead of him dove off of the road for cover.

rnzoli
01-09-2006, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
He was flying low enough that bicylists ahead of him dove off of the road for cover. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Flying low enough? Or because they were afraid of his loaded guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

berg417448
01-09-2006, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
He was flying low enough that bicylists ahead of him dove off of the road for cover. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Flying low enough? Or because they were afraid of his loaded guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I was cycling and saw a plane coming head on at me at that level I'd dive off the road too!

LStarosta
01-09-2006, 09:45 AM
If I saw a nazi plane flying at me, I would Ctrl-E my bike too.

Kuna15
01-09-2006, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
If I saw a nazi plane flying at me, I would Ctrl-E my bike too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

alert_1
01-09-2006, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">17 months and 3 days. 403 missions. 173 kills. That is difficult to achieve even in Forgotten battles campaigns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Indeed it's difficult even in the sim and thos aces had no chance to hit refly...but no stutter either http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jetbuff
01-09-2006, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
...but no stutter either http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, worse than stutter, they had the occassional mechanical nightmare. Gear that failed to retract ultimately contributed to his demise.

PS: I don't see how the altitude at which the kill was recorded has any bearing or where the combat actually took place. You could kill a sturmovik at 50m but perhaps that was the bottom of a dive from 3000m?

alert_1
01-09-2006, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">PS: I don't see how the altitude at which the kill was recorded has any bearing or where the combat actually took place. You could kill a sturmovik at 50m but perhaps that was the bottom of a dive from 3000m? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed..nevertheless, stating dive in 3000m sound good, ending just 10m AGL sounds crazy

Jetbuff
01-09-2006, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">PS: I don't see how the altitude at which the kill was recorded has any bearing or where the combat actually took place. You could kill a sturmovik at 50m but perhaps that was the bottom of a dive from 3000m? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed..nevertheless, stating dive in 3000m sound good, ending just 10m AGL sounds crazy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only if it's a vertical dive! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WOLFMondo
01-09-2006, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jensenpark:
And four mustangs in four minutes...

I wonder how these kill claims match up with official allied losses.

Always curious to match up when someone's log shows exact time, etc of a claim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

in short: They don't.

the long:

From 2nd TAF volume two:

According to 453 sqd claims and losses for the 9.7.1944 they lost no Spitfires.However at 13:30 hours 9.7.1944, 453sqd shot down 1 BF109 and 1 more as a damaged, 2 confirmed 190's, 1 probable and 4 damaged west of Lisieux. Another twist is the German records show no FW190's lost that day in that area. The 109's and damaged planes do though.

On that date only 1 Spitfire listed as shot down (Although a pilot for JG27 claimed one). And it wasn't by a BF109. It was by a P47. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

ImpStarDuece
01-09-2006, 01:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
"Quote: three RAF Spitfire fighters in five minutes"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry Seafire, on July 9th 1944, the day those claims are made, there were only 2 Spitfires lost, and neither of them to Emil Lang. Capitane Michael Boudier of 341 Sqn was jumped by P-47 pilots and shot down over Bernay and captured. The other Spitfire brought down hit a ballon cable near Wrotham and the pilot was killed in the ensuing crash.

waffen-79
01-09-2006, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
"Quote: three RAF Spitfire fighters in five minutes"
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Pfft that's PROPAGANDA...or is it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
...there were only 2 Spitfires lost, and neither of them to Emil Lang. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Says who? after all there isn't a third party that can verify victory claims, we just have one side or the other.

BaronUnderpants
01-09-2006, 04:16 PM
What a crapy way to go, after all thoose missions and victorys......dies because the gear wouldnt retract. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

If there is such a thing as a "good" way to go i mean.

An ace in every sence of the word, confirmed or unconfirmed kills aside, u dont make it through 403 mission on luck alone.

Choctaw111
01-10-2006, 07:37 AM
I prefer treetop furballs! I feel that it makes your opponent a little more predictable. I maily practice low altitude fighting offline. I feel that it gives me an edge over a pilot who has never really gotten into it at low levels...

WOLFMondo
01-10-2006, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
...there were only 2 Spitfires lost, and neither of them to Emil Lang. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Says who? after all there isn't a third party that can verify victory claims, we just have one side or the other. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The records I got mine from (also the reason why the 2nd Spit isn't mentioned because it doesn't cover any non 2nd TAF units) are from the 2nd TAF volumes which uses both British and German records.

After WW2 the British meticulously went through Luftwaffe records for various reasons, looking for lost airmen mainly (some were not found until the late 40's and invloved some serious research to find there remains) but also tallying statistics etc. They also could look at claims, losses, effectiveness of weapons etc. Preparing the ground for improvement in the RAF and help in any potential fight with the Ruskies.

The 2nd TAF volumes look at the information gathered from this to give an accurate picture from the statistics from both sides and this is reflected quite well as RAF records are scrutinised as much as LW records of accuracy.

More to the point, official RAF records for the 2nd TAF state that only one Spitfire on that date, over France, was lost and it was to a P47 and miles from Langs combat, it wasn't even a 453sqd plane as Lang claimed, ISD has already pointed to the pilot etc.

Emil Lang couldn't have shot any RAF Spitfires down on that date because the RAF didn't loose any! Not sure why the truth of this hurts.