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RAAF_Furball
01-24-2005, 08:47 AM
I'm not wanting to create a fuss. (I notice another Topic on this issue has been closed.)

Reason for Post:
1. Advice of name change.
2. Early warning headsup to other Squads

We've been been asked by our beloved RAAF to remove all of their copyrighted material from our website - and also to change our name.

I'll post here when our new name has been decided.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">~~~~~~~~
EDIT - 29 Jan 2005
~~~~~~~~
Thank you very much to all for your support and ideas !! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I've developed my own compromise I can live with.

We are no longer RAAF - we are now "Real Aussie Air Force". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

All "offending, Copyright" material has been removed, but the domain name will stay the same.

There are also a couple of irons still in the fire (RAC_pips for one) that may change the situation.
</span>

RAAF_Furball
01-24-2005, 08:47 AM
I'm not wanting to create a fuss. (I notice another Topic on this issue has been closed.)

Reason for Post:
1. Advice of name change.
2. Early warning headsup to other Squads

We've been been asked by our beloved RAAF to remove all of their copyrighted material from our website - and also to change our name.

I'll post here when our new name has been decided.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">~~~~~~~~
EDIT - 29 Jan 2005
~~~~~~~~
Thank you very much to all for your support and ideas !! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I've developed my own compromise I can live with.

We are no longer RAAF - we are now "Real Aussie Air Force". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

All "offending, Copyright" material has been removed, but the domain name will stay the same.

There are also a couple of irons still in the fire (RAC_pips for one) that may change the situation.
</span>

ElAurens
01-24-2005, 09:26 AM
Why not put a V in front of it and drop the R?

Virtual Australian Air Force.

Not too bad.

Or how about simply "The Roos"?

Good luck gents.

S!

Yimmy
01-24-2005, 09:38 AM
Never before have I heard of a military moaning about copyright.

I mean, someone using their name is almost a free recruitment campaign for them....

Jambock__01
01-24-2005, 09:41 AM
Sad to hear about it....

When we founded the 1st Brazilian virtual FS i sent a mail too the Bazilian Air Force asking about the use of markings, names and symbols. They told me if it were used with respect, there were no problem, as those markings belong to the brazilian people.

Tooz_69GIAP
01-24-2005, 09:58 AM
The UK's MoD recently lost a court case over the use of the RAF roundel on fashion items. The court ruled that the symbol was within public domain, or something, and so they are allowed to continue using it without copyright infringement, or summit.

There was a link to a BBC story on it somewhere, but I lost it.

Diablo310th
01-24-2005, 10:06 AM
exactly the reason we are the 310thVFS squad. Just add something like that to your squad name.

indylavi
01-24-2005, 10:14 AM
I agree, just put Virtual in front of your name. I'm not sure they can force you to remove medals and symbols because as stated above. Those are in the public doman. Anyway I wish you luck mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Chuck_Older
01-24-2005, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAAF_Furball:
I'm not wanting to create a fuss. (I notice another Topic on this issue has been closed.)

Reason for Post:
1. Advice of name change.
2. Early warning headsup to other Squads

We've been been asked by our beloved RAAF to remove all of their copyrighted material from our website - and also to change our name.

I'll post here when our new name has been decided. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not an expert here...but did the RAAF's lawyers say that, or the RAAF?

I ask because I'm not sure you wish to pursue this, but it seems to me that unless there is a bit of Law that says a non-profit organisation cannot use the letters "RAAF" to identify itself, there's no issue. Is "RAAF" an abbreviation, or is it the name? Royal Australian Air Force is not what you're presenting yourself as. RAAF could mean "Regional American Automobile Foundation" or any number of things


I mention it only to suggest you explore your options, and the Law, in this case. Those four letters cannot be expected to be the sole property of the Royal Australian Airforce in every country, is my feeling. You're not competing with them, you're not taking recruits away from them, you're not taking contrcts away from them, and you're not making money from their name

Just check into it, is all I'm saying

In this case, I'd argue that RAAF stood for "Recreator's Australian Armed Forces" or somesuch, and that you aim to heighten awareness of Australia's commitment in the second world war, not tout yourselves as an actual air force

Buzzsaw-
01-24-2005, 10:48 AM
Salute

This is not surprising at all.

What is happening, is that people are doing a search for the official RAAF site, and they are getting linked to yours.

This interferes with the government's ability to provide information and links.

You can't expect that you can take the full name of the RAAF and not get response from them.

I would suggest that you pick an individual Australian Squadron, and use that as your name. Or add a "Virtual" in front of your name.

Most of the time, you can get away with using names and graphics, but not if you interfere with a corporate entity making money, or if you mess up the government's ability to get its message out.

Chuck_Older
01-24-2005, 10:52 AM
Buzz- I hadn't thought of linking to the name

In that case, the name should be an acronym that spells RAAf like I suggested

Of course, fighting legal battles is not what the sim community is into; regardless it makes my blood boil

SeaFireLIV
01-24-2005, 11:05 AM
Yep. I think Buzzsaw- `s hit the nail on the head. It`s not about money or profit, but simply to avoid confusion. It`s not as bad as it appears.

Makes sense.

Latico
01-24-2005, 11:09 AM
Many of the US Military squadrons and air groups have had their Names and patches/logos copyrighted. Adding a "V" or "Virtual" to you squadron names should prevent any issues. Also, checking with the military first can't hurt either.

This can also aply to nose art as well. Some of the Nose art that was used on the planes during WWII was created for them by Disney and Warner Bros artist.

At vatsim.net there are several virtual airlines that are using the names of real airlines and skinning their aircraft with the same paint as the real world carriers. But they have permissiion from the Carriers. The rest of the virtual carrier lines are ficticious, so no problems for them.

I have ran into the problem of trying to research WWII air groups/squadrons and gotten linked to vitual squadron web sites. So I can see where the real military groups could have a problem with virual groups using the same name.

DarkCanuck420
01-24-2005, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yimmy:
Never before have I heard of a military moaning about copyright.

I mean, someone using their name is almost a free recruitment campaign for them.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless you make them look bad http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VAAF sounds good to me good idea. take it before someone copyrights that too!

================================================

SeminoleX
01-24-2005, 12:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> RAAF Squad is changing its name due to Copyright <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be downright funny if it were not so sad.

e5kimo
01-24-2005, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkCanuck420:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yimmy:
Never before have I heard of a military moaning about copyright.

I mean, someone using their name is almost a free recruitment campaign for them.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless you make them look bad http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VAAF sounds good to me good idea. take it before someone copyrights that too!

================================================ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

too late, the vaaf already exsists http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Zyzbot
01-24-2005, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
The UK's MoD recently lost a court case over the use of the RAF roundel on fashion items. The court ruled that the symbol was within public domain, or something, and so they are allowed to continue using it without copyright infringement, or summit.

There was a link to a BBC story on it somewhere, but I lost it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually they only lost the patent office case with respect to the clothing company. The ruling in the case gave the MoD the "sole rights to use the roundel on items other than clothing such as military hardware."

Quote from the Mod spokeman:

"However we are happy that the roundel has been protected as a trademark in respect of other goods and services."

nearmiss
01-24-2005, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAAF_Furball:
I'm not wanting to create a fuss. (I notice another Topic on this issue has been closed.)

Reason for Post:
1. Advice of name change.
2. Early warning headsup to other Squads

We've been been asked by our beloved RAAF to remove all of their copyrighted material from our website - and also to change our name.

I'll post here when our new name has been decided. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but I don't believe it.

Maybe some little twit in the air office contacted you, but I doubt any person with authority would get into ragging on you about a national symbol.

If you were using it to make money I could understand they might have some ruluctance to letting someone use it. People use national symbols for evey imaginable thing here in the states. Heck, some name movies after them.

You just need to "forget about it" and keep on keeping on. The fun with press and everything you're gonna have with the RAAF will be worth it.

Sometimes it's fun, step in the poop! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Firestorm07
01-24-2005, 01:44 PM
=S=

Some of you may have seen me on HL as _RAAF_Firestorm.

Our Squad has always been proud and honored to have been given the chance to recreate accurate missions which reflect the struggle of the RAAF against the Japanese in the skies over New Guinea.

Our squad site and callsigns, our wing designations and flight numbers have been a part of that historical tribute. Pride in our country's legacy has been strong.

Believe it or not, I wasnt even born in Australia. I'm of greek decent, I came to Melbourne when I was ten years old. But I feel true blue to the core! I love my country, I cherish it's history and want to keep learning about it's past.

Nothing has been as big a learning curve as participating in many of the historical missions that our squad plays. One of our members in particular, _RAAF_Schuftie, composes amazingly accurate missions, using historical data of flight numbers, target locations and weather conditions. One recent mission he composed, was taken from research done for an article in Flightpath magazine, aiming to answer the question of "Who shot down John Jackson?" and portrayed the last days of the Port Moresby Kittyhawks.

So, to have the Royal Australian Air Force impose the copyright restrictions without any attempt to learn about us or understand what we do is shortsighted in the extreme in my opinion. Our CO, _RAAF_Furball, has tried reasoning with them and has been met with a blank wall of negativity.

Note the following extract from the Defence Act 1903 (Pt VII Section 83, 'Unauthorised use, possession or supply of emblems or
flags'):

(5)"It is not an offence against this section for a person to use or wear a defence emblem or fly a defence flag in the course of a dramatic or other visual representation (including such a representation to be televised) or in the making of a cinematograph film."

Is this sim anything other than an interactive, visual representation of a historical event?

So yes, if we had the resources and financial will, we would argue our point. We'd probably win, who knows? But the advice we've received from people in the know, is "dont even try it, just walk away, their legal eagles are strong". So, choices are limited.

As far as misrepresentation is concerned, our website has all the appropriate disclaimers, the RAAF comes up on a any search page such as google much further up the list than what we do and if anything, we offer free publicity for them.

Ok, so I'd thought I'd fill everyone in. Thanks for listening.

_RAAF_Firestorm
"When I fly, I am."

441Spyder
01-24-2005, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Firestorm07:
=S=

Some of you may have seen me on HL as _RAAF_Firestorm.

Our Squad has always been proud and honored to have been given the chance to recreate accurate missions which reflect the struggle of the RAAF against the Japanese in the skies over New Guinea.

Our squad site and callsigns, our wing designations and flight numbers have been a part of that historical tribute. Pride in our country's legacy has been strong.

Believe it or not, I wasnt even born in Australia. I'm of greek decent, I came to Melbourne when I was ten years old. But I feel true blue to the core! I love my country, I cherish it's history and want to keep learning about it's past.

Nothing has been as big a learning curve as participating in many of the historical missions that our squad plays. One of our members in particular, _RAAF_Schuftie, composes amazingly accurate missions, using historical data of flight numbers, target locations and weather conditions. One recent mission he composed, was taken from research done for an article in Flightpath magazine, aiming to answer the question of "Who shot down John Jackson?" and portrayed the last days of the Port Moresby Kittyhawks.

So, to have the Royal Australian Air Force impose the copyright restrictions without any attempt to learn about us or understand what we do is shortsighted in the extreme in my opinion. Our CO, _RAAF_Furball, has tried reasoning with them and has been met with a blank wall of negativity.

Note the following extract from the Defence Act 1903 (Pt VII Section 83, 'Unauthorised use, possession or supply of emblems or
flags'):

(5)"It is not an offence against this section for a person to use or wear a defence emblem or fly a defence flag in the course of a dramatic or other visual representation (including such a representation to be televised) or in the making of a cinematograph film."

Is this sim anything other than an interactive, visual representation of a historical event?

So yes, if we had the resources and financial will, we would argue our point. We'd probably win, who knows? But the advice we've received from people in the know, is "dont even try it, just walk away, their legal eagles are strong". So, choices are limited.

As far as misrepresentation is concerned, our website has all the appropriate disclaimers, the RAAF comes up on a any search page such as google much further up the list than what we do and if anything, we offer free publicity for them.

Ok, so I'd thought I'd fill everyone in. Thanks for listening.

_RAAF_Firestorm
"When I fly, I am." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why not change it to the RVAAF Royal Virtual Australian Air Force

FF_Trozaka
01-24-2005, 03:53 PM
Wonder what the RAAF would say if you told them you were going to call the press? Historical recreation in a positive light should be something that they would appreciate, not try to stifle. It would be very interesting to see what would happen if you guys stuck to your guns, but i do understand why you might not want to.

At the worst, i would just do as suggested above and stick "virtual" in there somewhere. Those folks that can't find the correct website on the internet probably shouldn't be signing up to fly airplanes for the RAAF anyways, LOL

S! best of luck

Saburo_0
01-24-2005, 09:05 PM
This whole co http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif pyright phenomena is getting downright annoying, stumbled on this at work today:

You know how the "01413"s at Union Pacific are charging for the use of their logo on decals and models? Now model railroaders can thank them by querying their database whenever we want to know what the STCC code is for a given commodity or what commodity a given STCC code stands for.
Enter 2, 3, 4, or 5 digits of the STCC or some keywords in the commodity name.

They can't afford a handful real customer service reps. but they got loads of lawyers to chase down those rapacious model rail-roaders....

Athosd
01-24-2005, 10:23 PM
Its definitely a "watch this space" issue - copyright entanglements are starting to hit hard everywhere, its shaping up to be the new muffle on freedom of information. There is a reason why the History channel concentrates so much on WW2 material - its all public domain.

Copyright is also a major reason for the "lifestyle" and "live drama" plague afflicting television. New "good" material is becoming increasingly difficult and costly to make - especially for small documentary outfits.

Unfortunately it looks like things will get a lot worse before our various legal systems catch up and begin crafting more reasonable laws (at the behest of an outraged public - hopefully).

Just my humble tupence of course.

Salute

Athos

RAC_Pips
01-24-2005, 10:41 PM
Furball,

Through my work I have dealings with a number of very senior members of the Australian Defence Force, including that of the RAAF. Both professionally and privately.

I would be very interested to know who contacted your Squad Furball, their capacity, the reasons they presented to you for this restriction and what alternatives (if any) they were willing to consider.

I would be happy to raise this issue with senior members of the RAAF on your behalf. If you would like to go ahead please contact me on jlo@apex.net.au

Longjocks
01-24-2005, 11:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
What is happening, is that people are doing a search for the official RAAF site, and they are getting linked to yours.

This interferes with the government's ability to provide information and links. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wise conclusion, my friend. The only fatal flaw is that I can't think of a reason anyone would want to look up our crappy airforce. Unless of course they're evil terrorists trying to find out info on our defenses. In which case, wouldn't a decoy like this virtual squadron be a good thing for the RAAF?

I think we need to change the acronym to something like;
Royalties
Are
Aquired
Fraudulently.

Cornay
01-25-2005, 12:12 AM
Furball:
Same thing happened to a WB's Squadron years ago. Some ponce from the DoD contacted them and told them to cease and desist.
Turned out the ponce was against war/pestilence etc.(employed by the DoD..stupid) and just didn't like it being represented in a 'game' plus, he/she had no leverage in the DoD.
They never changed their name.

BrassEm
01-25-2005, 12:34 AM
Gotta agree with Buzzsaw too.

The internet is too congested with so many, many websites that are here today and gone tomorrow, yet their links remain locked in the web and almost never flushed. (I hope a government funded website will be around for quite a while longer than most.)

I have to believe that it is a trademark, and NOT a copyright issue. The RAAF and any other entity has a right to protect their niche, or loose it forever. The right they are protecting is confusion with real RAAF sites. I guess if you call yourself a RAAF squadron on the web, are you the real thing or not? Putting a VRAAF in place if you are a Virtual Royal Australian Air Force would, I hope, avoid any confusion with the actual and simulated entities.

Shame it's getting to this but order does comes at a cost.

Daiichidoku
01-25-2005, 02:59 AM
Dont change your name..stand up to ever growing ridiculousness

Simply place a disclaimer on your squad website, first page, that explains for the moronic just whar "your" RAAF is...

Add a very large, visible link to the "real" RAAF, so both orgs. can share the traffic...

Maybe this way, some ppl interested in the real RAAF will get turned onto FB/PF, and your squad, and those visiting intently on the "V" RAAF may go to the real one and enlist

No pissant RAAF laywer can argue with that

RAAF_Typhoon
01-25-2005, 03:18 AM
Hiya guys, most of ya prolly know me as Typhoon or Timmy or somewhat, i am also a member of _RAAF_ as you can see.

The fact that really gets on my nerves is that, we already have a disclamer that Furball put on the site so long ago.

Another point is that Furballs squad has been around a long time and the squad has never had copyright laws slammed on the squad.

Being a New Zealander somewhat changes the way i would think about the squad, i sure dont have the "Aussie Spirit" that you guys do and i havent been a member for too long but from what i can see the guys have poared alot of blood sweat and tears into this squad and imo it has a enourmous sedimental value to me and the guys.

It really upsets me of the fact we have to change our squad name and our call signs and we no longer can use roundels or badges.

Even though this can change the fate of the squad thanks for all the support guys.

S~~ _RAAF_Typhoon

Sturm_Williger
01-25-2005, 05:55 AM
This sort of thing is a pity.

I would suggest contacting RAC_Pips as he offered and finding out from the real horses mouths as it were. At least then you'll have the full info.

It might well turn out to be simply the website confusion and they may be happy to permit you to continue as before if you can sort that out.

Let's hope, eh ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BelgianTiger_6
01-25-2005, 07:22 AM
My squad the Belgian Virtual Tigers( http://www.virtualtigers.com ) used to be named the "Virtual 31 Tiger Squadron" in 1999-2000, but then the Belgian Air Force also requested us to change our name.
At the time we also did not like to change our name but we also felt we had no choice.. so we changed it into Belgian Virtual Tigers, and since then we have had good contacts with the Belgian Air Force and with the real 31 Tiger Sqn.

So, it may look very dissapointing to you at the moment, remember that good things might come from it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RAAF_Furball
01-28-2005, 04:23 PM
Thank you very much to all for your support and ideas !! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I've developed my own compromise I can live with.

We are no longer RAAF - we are now "Real Aussie Air Force". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

All offending material has been removed, but the domain name will stay the same.

There are also a couple of irons still in the fire (RAC_pips for one) that may change the situation.

Bearcat99
01-28-2005, 10:24 PM
Look here (http://www.defence.gov.au/raaf/organisation/info_on/units/brand/).

I would write a letter and plead my case. All they can say is no way. I got in touch with Tuskegee Airmen INC. and although I got nothing saying go for it.. I got nothing saying dont either so I try to represent and carry myself in the best way I can.... although on occasion I have been known to loose my cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

When you write this letter send them screenshots with your historically accurate squad skins. Tell them that you are not a bunch of kids playing a "game" but a group of grown men whose passion is WW2 aircraft, WW2 history, and telling all who will listen about the valiant struggle of the RAAF in WW2. Mention historical facts...... show them your web site. Find individual chapters or RAAF members and send them emails too. Are you playing a game or are you serious about your representation? If you are serious then kick it up. All they can say is sorry bug off... in which case by simply changing RAAF to VRAAF and using historical symols of public record from the period should be enough. Unless of course you dont mind changing your name.

VMF-214_Pappy
01-29-2005, 12:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAAF_Furball:
I'm not wanting to create a fuss. (I notice another Topic on this issue has been closed.)

Reason for Post:
1. Advice of name change.
2. Early warning headsup to other Squads

We've been been asked by our beloved RAAF to remove all of their copyrighted material from our website - and also to change our name.

I'll post here when our new name has been decided.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">~~~~~~~~
EDIT - 29 Jan 2005
~~~~~~~~
Thank you very much to all for your support and ideas !! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I've developed my own compromise I can live with.

We are no longer RAAF - we are now "Real Aussie Air Force". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

All "offending, Copyright" material has been removed, but the domain name will stay the same.

There are also a couple of irons still in the fire (RAC_pips for one) that may change the situation.
</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant belive it. I am sorry to hear that. You telling me the RAAF dont want there name advertised. I think it is a good thing to take historical unit names and use them in a simulation, it generates intrested. Wants next all historical squadrons gunna have to drop there tags. I find this totally ridiculous.

Latico
01-29-2005, 02:12 PM
With all the negative comments I've seen about copyright law and how they have effected the simming community, it appears that there is a huge ignorance in regard to the copyright laws and how they are intended to protect ALL of us.

Copyright and Trademark Laws ARE NOT solely meant for use by the big business of the world. They also protect the rest of us. Anyone that creates an intelectual property automaticly becomes the copyright owner of that property, regardless of whither they are a professional or an amateur.

I've seen allot of copy/pasting of text onto this forum from other web sites. There have been images scanned from books and magazines posted here (as well as any other forum). Did you know that these actions are copyright infringments if you do this without permission of the original publisher? (Forum moditers should take notice)

Someone posted a remark stating that they felt that the copyright laws need an overhaul. Guess what? The US copyright laws have been undergoing just that for the past 2 years. Several issues are being addressed. The "Fair use" and "Public Domain" have or are being better defined. Also, this new media that we have, called the Internet, is being addressed and the laws are being revamped to accommidate copyright issues for it.

If you want to avoid Copyright/Trademark problems try using a simple little rule that I do. If I didn't create it (an intelectual proberty), it isn't mine to do what I will with it, without permission of the person or entity that did create it. That icludes all text and images/graphics. This will affectively prevent us from infringing on someone else's copyrights. Don't make the mistake of believing that anything you find published in print or on the Internet falls under "Fair Use" or "Public Domain". It doesn't!

As for we in the Combat Flight sim community adopting or forming squads after real life squads, it would be in our best interest to contact those RL squadrons and resolve any disputes of Copyright/Trademarks that may be of issue. By iniitiating contact ourselves, rather than waiting for them to do so, we will be showing respect for those squadrons Copyrights/Trademark ownership. This should in turn result in reciprocated respect for our community. I believe that we will find most of these entities will be more inclined to work with us to resolve any issues if WE contact them FIRST. Who knows, it may even result in the RL squadrons asssisting us in researching historical data.

RAAF_Furball
01-30-2005, 05:54 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">
Thnx for that Bearcat.

Already tried and failed, I'm afraid .......

I sent them an email in June 2004 - no reply - then get an email from the same place in January, 2005 - "stop using our crest and name ..... etc "
Even rang them to discuss - "we can have your site dropped - we will pass to Legal if you don't change it" - not a pleasant phone call at all.

Although contacting Chapters and RAAF members is worth a shot - thnx again.
</span>

Latico
Pls see my reply to Bearcat.

Your approach to copyright - "If I didn't create it, I probably shouldn't use it" - would certainly prevent your getting into copyright problems.