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Heavensabove
10-14-2005, 04:26 AM
Gentlemen,

I have a general question of the forum that I'd like to ask regarding aerial warfare. I'm seeking your advice, recommendations and your constructive, genuine input.

As with many of us, my level of experience and skill is slowly developing. With each each training flight, operational sortie and mission I'm learning new skills and techniques to enhance the experience.

I'm finding, however that there are a number of issues that I still just can't figure out.

I've recently started using hyperlobby, gaming online joining in on various session that I'm sure your all aware of. I've found that whilst flying, even in some of the higher performance rated aircraft such as the Fw190D9's, MkIV Spit's and late model Yak's that I'm still being out-matched. "Yes I know. maybe my flying skills suck".

For example, I've been set upon by a Yak whilst flying an Fw 190D9. The Yak's roll rate, acceleration and it's ability to loop are far in excess of any manouveres I was capable of performing. If I were to try and perform a loop The black out effect would cut in, followed by all the expected stall characteristics etc. etc. Only to eventually recover from the spin, all this time the opponents aircraft appears to exhibit little or no effect to speed or height lose due to tight or sharp turns.

All this time my apponent is ploding along maintain controlled flight, irrespective of the attitude.

I understand that each aircraft has its own specific characteristics so before anyone gets carried away and replies with unproductive comments I was just wondering if it has anything to do with computer hardware, internet speed or anything else.

On another note, when playing the game online and the "S" is held down it displays all the current flyers details. Which listing is your 'ping' rate?

Anyway, your comments and input will be appreciate. No doubt others will read this so please keep it sensible so us budding aviators can learn from any mistakes.

For those that take the time to reply. Thanks very much, I appreciate it.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b305/seiben/TyphoonMkIb-2.jpg

nakamura_kenji
10-14-2005, 04:38 AM
if fly fw-190 ont play russian turn burn dogfight game will get kill. basic fly in straight line fast as possible use hit run tactic but alway keep speed up. same tactic p-47/p-51 also. not fly fw-190 self find handle brick lik notlike style fight have use but it tactic see people most use often

i think fw-190D is fastest plane at sealevel
but maybe mustang 3 anyone know???

think it 2nd colum show ping think the score then plane type.

nice typhoon it not sig pic if bit big?? ^_^

LW_lcarp
10-14-2005, 04:49 AM
Your ping is the little white numders after the 1.

1. (ping) score, player name, AC number, Plane type

nakamura_kenji
10-14-2005, 04:51 AM
rough guide of plane

:fast but handle like brick(hit and run)

p-47
p-51
p-38
fw-190
ta-xxx thingy
all jet
f6f
corsair

:allrounder (good at most thing)

spitfire
bf-109 (f best turner E,G/K not so good)
p-39
p-63
ki-61
most russian plane
a6m
f4f

:wonderful handling poo plane(turny turny)

ki-43
p-11c
i-16
j-8/gladiator
cr-42 italian thingy
bufflo
i-153

i miss few give idea

Oilburner_TAW
10-14-2005, 04:52 AM
Basically what kenji said. 80% of the skill involved is not really skill, it's knowledge. You must know your plane's strengths, your foe's weakness, and how to exploit the situation. If you like to "turn and burn" then pick a plane that's good at it (Yak in east, "Zero" variant in PF). I completely understand where your coming from. I like to fly the F4U and my natural instinct is always to try and get into twisting/turning furballs with the IJN. Well, after 30 sec or so I find myself on the deck about 150 knots with an overheating engine and KI on my butt. I started forcing myself to make 1 pass and keep on going and extend WAAAY out before coming around for another...seems to be working good. My gunnery sucks so I don't get a lot of hits, but I also always make it back.

Kuna15
10-14-2005, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by Oilburner_TAW:
Basically what kenji said. 80% of the skill involved is not really skill, it's knowledge. You must know your plane's strengths, your foe's weakness, and how to exploit the situation. If you like to "turn and burn" then pick a plane that's good at it (Yak in east, "Zero" variant in PF). I completely understand where your coming from. I like to fly the F4U and my natural instinct is always to try and get into twisting/turning furballs with the IJN. Well, after 30 sec or so I find myself on the deck about 150 knots with an overheating engine and KI on my butt. I started forcing myself to make 1 pass and keep on going and extend WAAAY out before coming around for another...seems to be working good. My gunnery sucks so I don't get a lot of hits, but I also always make it back.

This is true. Indeed, I can only repeat what has been said.

@ Heavensabove since you have mentioned FW-190D vs Yak-3 match, you should know that you have to posses initial advantage over your oponent; also take note that he will have edge in lower alts performance (under 4k) while your machine will have better performance over that altitude (relatively compared to Yak3 or La-7 oponent).

You will notice that LA-7 is considerably more dangerous oponent since it is fighter with arguably best lower alt overall performance.
Their only weakness (albeit nasty weakness) is low dive speed compared to axis/allied planes of same time. Translated that means that when he get on your six, you just firewall throttle and go into shallow dive. He cannot follow you after about 800kp/h depending on altitude (but no sane LA driver will go above that limit anyway).

After that you have only two options; to separate yourself and make a distance from him and ask your buddies for help.

Now if you have flew carefully you won't get into that situations, because you will force high altitude fights where thay do not stand a chance against Dora's greater energy.
If they hit the deck, it's even better; although FW-190 has bad lower alt perfomance (again only compared to awesome Soviet airplanes) you can pick them out from safe height - lets say BnZ dive pass on them from 1,5k higher altitude. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Vipez-
10-14-2005, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:

i think fw-190D is fastest plane at sealevel
but maybe mustang 3 anyone know???

?? ^_^

Top three planes by speed at sealevel at the moment:

1. Mustang MK III (642 kmh)
2. LA-7
3. FW-190D

Next ones are pretty close to each other (in no particular order), P51D, FW-190 A-9 followed closely by A-8, P38-Late, Yak-9U, Yak-3 (slightly slower than Yak9U), Ki-84, BF109K, etc etc..

Flyable Tempest is going to be in same category with Mustang MK III, about 640 kmh at sealevel ( http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif )

nakamura_kenji
10-14-2005, 06:02 AM
ki-61-I-ko 500kph/310mph at sealevel, lucky ki-61 turn/dive well p_q

pacettid
10-14-2005, 06:07 AM
S! Heavensabove,

IMHO being successful as an online combat flight simulation pilot is all about knowledge and technique. One of the resources available to you in this genre is the ability to join an online virtual squadron, so that the you can learn from the experiences of others. It's also nice to have someone to "watch your 6".

If this appeals to you, let me know and I will be glad to discuss it with you and help you find an online squadron to match the type of flying you enjoy. The Fallen Angels are always looking for good sports to join the ranks...notice I did not say aces http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...there were very few aces in WWII, when you look at the total number of pilots, but there were a lot of good solid leaders and pilots flying for all nations...that is what we subcribe to.

The Fallen Angels VACW (http://www.fallenangels.dyndns.org/)

ForkTailedDevil
10-14-2005, 07:19 AM
Also good luck getting anyone to watch your back on the bulk of HL servers. Unless you are "one" of them you get shot down by your allies even. I really wish there were more server options other than HL and Ubi.

Heavensabove
10-14-2005, 07:57 AM
To all,

If you so happen to wander back this way I just wanted to say thanks, your replies are very much appreciated as is the time taken to write them.

I wasn't aware that the game had been set up with each aircraft's performance characteristics etc incorporated into it in such a manner.

Pacettid (Don): Thanks, I'll certainly drop you a line.

ForkTaileddevil: I'd like to see a server set up open to the public for training purposes but then that opens up other issues I suspect. I guess with so many sqn sites about people will eventually become a part of this.

"You can teach monkey's to fly better than that" One of my favourite captions from BoB.

Nakamura_Kenji: my japanese is terrible but thanks mate, appreciate your comments

LW_lcarp, Oilburner TAW, Kuna 15 and Vipez: cheers.

lrrp22
10-14-2005, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
Flyable Tempest is going to be in same category with Mustang MK III, about 640 kmh at sealevel ( http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif )

We can only hope... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LRRP

pacettid
10-14-2005, 01:38 PM
S! Heavensabove,

If you live in Europe, we have a Fallen Angels Chapter there also http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

neural_dream
10-14-2005, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
Top three planes by speed at sealevel at the moment:

1. Mustang MK III (642 kmh)
2. LA-7
3. FW-190D

Next ones are pretty close to each other (in no particular order), P51D, FW-190 A-9 followed closely by A-8, P38-Late, Yak-9U, Yak-3 (slightly slower than Yak9U), Ki-84, BF109K, etc etc..
Flyable Tempest is going to be in same category with Mustang MK III, about 640 kmh at sealevel ( http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif )

currently (4.01), at sea level (prop only):
1. Mustang MkIII 652km/h
2. La-7 3xB20 611km/h
3. I-185 609km/h
4. La-7 605km/h
4. P-51D 605km/h
6. Dora 604km/h

I am testing such stuff for the new aircraft & cockpit reference guide that i'm writing. It's all done, waiting for the 2 new aircraft (4.02).

Enforcer572005
10-15-2005, 06:40 PM
that is an incredible photo of an early model typhoon wiht the framed canopy....never seen that one before.

danjama
10-15-2005, 06:56 PM
listen when u wanna loop u dont pull hard on the stick especially when at high speeds. If ya wanna loop, pull up slowly and climb a bit till ur at around 300, then pull back to complete the loop. High G's are induced when u are too fast! Bear that in mind ok.(oh by high Gs i mean blackout http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

VW-IceFire
10-15-2005, 07:06 PM
Good choice on fighter. The FW190D-9 is one of the best in the game...BUT...its also one of the hardest to master.

If you get good at the FW190D-9, you will be good at any like fighter.

The key with a FW190 (or any BNZ machine) is not to manuever with more manueverable aircraft. Although the D-9 is manueverable enough to manage a dogfight in some situations its just not cut out for that sort of work. To do it, you have to be REALLY good in the D-9 and your opponent has to be average in whatever they are flying.

So the key here is to stay fast and not follow them in turns or moves. What you want to do is appear above them, use your roll and high speed to make a fast attack with guns blazing. Get good at making odd deflection shots and off angle shooting. Fire, hope to hit, break off, and climb back to your original (or near original altitude).

That Yak or whatever you're shooting can turn all day but every time he turns he's loosing energy and trading it for angles. Since you're still above him, there isn't much he can do.

The one way to follow a superior turning aircraft in a faster but less manueverable aircraft is called the yo-yo. Basically you approach (for example) the previously mentioned Yak from the rear at a high speed. When I say high speed, I mean 400kph or more. Works best when you have more than 400. When he executes his break turn, you pull back on the stick and go up (say at 50 or 60 degrees). Roll, wing over and come back down on him on the other side. This burns a ton of energy but it leaves you high and then nosed back down onto his new course.

He can keep spiraling and then the game is up but you may get a shot at him nonetheless.

Try that and keep working on it.

BTW: Your signature is way too big...size it down. There is a set of rules for pixel size...

Heavensabove
10-15-2005, 09:11 PM
Cheers All, thanks for the guidance and advice. Now it's practice, practice and more practice.

Matsuoka_T
10-15-2005, 11:40 PM
Nakamura-san,

Yoroshiku. Nani o sh!te imasu ka. Amerika ni daigakusei desu. Atashi wa sukina gamu desu, demo shoshinsha. Anata ga?

- Matsuoka

JtD
10-16-2005, 04:59 AM
A D-9 45 is just as fast as a La-7. If you test a La-7 with 611 you should probably get 610 with the D-9 45.

Anyway, don't dogfight Yak-3's. They are a pain. Fly hit and run, or B'n'Z, as most people say.

neural_dream
10-16-2005, 05:03 AM
Are you sure? have you tried that? I don't think the Dora can reach the max speed of the La7_3xb20 at sea level.

dieg777
10-16-2005, 05:35 AM
As has been mentioned each plane has its own strengths and weakness. here are a few links to help get you get started

http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Air_combat_manoeuvring

http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Offensive_combat

http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Defensive

good luck

antifreeze
10-16-2005, 06:27 AM
One thing that threw me when I first got the game is the tendency to initiate manoeuvres at too slow a speed. Plus, then pulling too hard on the stick and losing more energy/speed than is necessary during the turn.

For a new player, the minimum speed for most aircraft to initiate a tight turn or a loop is 300-330km/h. Don't expect to be able to complete the manoeuvre if you are doing less than that. If you are approaching 400km/h, then you will have to ease up on the control stick quite a lot, not pulling it right back. You won't be able to get the optimum turn circumference at higher speeds.

HART_dreyer
10-16-2005, 02:49 PM
I read only the first few sentences of your post but I've already discovered the source of your problem.

Looping? Are you serious? You don't loop in air combat unless you want to commit suicide.

Must go back to the fundementals of air combat!

Speed = Life.

Heavensabove
10-16-2005, 06:51 PM
The opponents aircraft was performing the loop, a high nose attitude climbing to meet him mid way during that vital stage of transition when energy and therefore speed was greatly reduced provided a perfect large sight picture......unfortunately.

The opponents aircraft (A Yak or La5)survived and continued the loop (which was commenced at sea level) only to be on my 6 in a matter of seconds.

It seems the key to success for this type of aircraft is altitude and speed. Not to enter into melee's with little nimble aircraft and learning the art of deflection techiniques etc seems to also be a huge considerations.

Appreciate each and every comment. Thanks to all for your time and effort so far

HART_dreyer
10-16-2005, 07:46 PM
If you fight a La5 or late Yak model on the deck in a FW190 you€re screwed unless you can take it out the first chance you get.

Some have stated that the FW190 is a really good aircraft. This is not entirely true. The FW190 is totally outmatched by most adversaries when you fly as a single pilot. The main advantage of the FW190, which is speed, is less important when there is no teamwork involved. Basically, this means, you can probably stay alive in a ****e Wulf for a long time without getting into trouble, but you won't be able to make a whole lot of victories flying it solo. But I guess it depends what your standards are, I my self am not pleased unless I make at least 50 victories without a single death.

The BF109 is more versatile and therefore more suited for solo flight. A pair of skilled FW190 pilots working as a team, that is a scary sight, however.

JtD
10-16-2005, 11:16 PM
Well, Dreyer, I scored 160 kills in 12 hours without getting killed myself in the Focke flying as solo pilot - of course with the usual occasional help from teammates.

Hetzer_II
10-17-2005, 12:21 AM
JTD keep the balls low ;-)

but youre right... i realy prefer the 190 if im solo because you can choose when to fight and when not.. you simply need some alt (3500-4000) and you can almost always savely reach a friendly airstrip and search for help... Most pilots will simply not follow you..

HART_dreyer
10-17-2005, 06:13 AM
Haha JtD that must be the biggest lie I've ever heard. That would simply be -impossible-.

Unless you are flying on some ****** server where you keep bouncing every sorry bastard who has just taken off.

160 kills in 12 hours without getting killed? That's 1 kill every 4.5 MINUTES. Be serious...

JtD
10-17-2005, 09:51 AM
I was flying at UK Dedicated which has externals on and kept bouncing every sorry bastard who happened to fly below me - hardly ever near enemy bases as I have a lot of respect for the lucky AAA hit.

Externals make it a lot easier to find a target, you cannot compare this to externals off servers. I spent most of the time fighting, not searching like you have to do.

Anyway, Hetzers Focke tactics work on all servers. A very good solo plane.

Imho flying the 109 is a lot more dangerous as you cannot end a fight as quickly as you can in a Focke. In the FW, I do one bounce and he is gone, in the Bf my controls get too heavy and a dogfight is more likely to occur - if the enemy asks for help / runs for cover I may quickly find myself being bounced.

HART_dreyer
10-17-2005, 12:11 PM
Flying the FW190 solo does not work against skilled pilots. Those who fly on the UK Dedicated server are mostly rookies to the extreme.

Want to disprove me? Fly on Western Front or the Historic based Missions servers and score 5 kills within 1 hour and upload the track for me. Five is totally doable, but even that amount will be hard to do within a 1 hour time frame in the FW.

Back up your skill and statements with proof.

JtD
10-17-2005, 12:30 PM
UK-D is a historic based missions server and it's rookies did a good job in the server wars competition (that sadly never went further than round one). Must be the best rookies around. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

In other words, no, I won't do what you want me to. But I think I have a couple of 190 tracks from several sorties. You've seen one, you know all of them.

Monson74
10-17-2005, 12:43 PM
Or team up with someone flying fast too - perform Drag&Bag (TM)(R)(C) tactics: Fool the slower turnfighter to follow you & watch your wingy take him out while he's trying to catch up - you'll see that it works quite often http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif