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Ratsack
04-14-2005, 12:46 AM
Hi all,

For Oleg's information and aggravation

I was just reading the English translation from the Finnish of the flight and maintenance manual for the Bf 109 G-2 (as one does), and it says the following about the radiators:


€˜6. Cooling System
€¦

If the thermostat fails, or in special cases, the thermostat can be disengaged, after which you must manually adjust the flaps. The control lever is on the right in the cockpit. The lever can be set to €œopen€ (auf), €œclosed€ (zu) or €œoff€ (ruhe), which means that the flaps stay where they are. In the €œautomatic€ (Automatik) position the thermostat controls the flap settings.

If either one of the liquid coolers is hit, the damaged cooler must be disconnected from the system immediately by pulling the handles on the left and right in the forward part of the cockpit depending which of the radiators was damaged.€


Firstly, I note that the manual is not clear on the manual operation. Could the pilot use the manual €˜auf€ setting for a second or two until the flaps are partially open, and then select €˜ruhe€ to stop them there? Or does it mean that if the pilot selected €˜auf€, the flaps were fully open, no matter what? If the former, the control system we have is more cumbersome than the real one; if the latter, the 109s have an unrealistic advantage.

Secondly, the manual clearly states that you could isolate a damaged radiator to prevent coolant loss. I€d love to have this modelled to make the 109 a little more robust...that and a lower damage probability on the oil cooler...


Dreamin€, I know.


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ratsack

Ratsack
04-14-2005, 12:46 AM
Hi all,

For Oleg's information and aggravation

I was just reading the English translation from the Finnish of the flight and maintenance manual for the Bf 109 G-2 (as one does), and it says the following about the radiators:


€˜6. Cooling System
€¦

If the thermostat fails, or in special cases, the thermostat can be disengaged, after which you must manually adjust the flaps. The control lever is on the right in the cockpit. The lever can be set to €œopen€ (auf), €œclosed€ (zu) or €œoff€ (ruhe), which means that the flaps stay where they are. In the €œautomatic€ (Automatik) position the thermostat controls the flap settings.

If either one of the liquid coolers is hit, the damaged cooler must be disconnected from the system immediately by pulling the handles on the left and right in the forward part of the cockpit depending which of the radiators was damaged.€


Firstly, I note that the manual is not clear on the manual operation. Could the pilot use the manual €˜auf€ setting for a second or two until the flaps are partially open, and then select €˜ruhe€ to stop them there? Or does it mean that if the pilot selected €˜auf€, the flaps were fully open, no matter what? If the former, the control system we have is more cumbersome than the real one; if the latter, the 109s have an unrealistic advantage.

Secondly, the manual clearly states that you could isolate a damaged radiator to prevent coolant loss. I€d love to have this modelled to make the 109 a little more robust...that and a lower damage probability on the oil cooler...


Dreamin€, I know.


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ratsack

Fennec_P
04-14-2005, 01:27 AM
Since there's only one oil radiator, I don't see what isolating it would do.

As it stands, planes don't leak coolant in PF.

But in BoB, I hope this feature is modelled. I'd hate to take one bullet hit in a radiator, and bleed completely dry because of it.

Grendel-B
04-14-2005, 03:56 AM
Not just one radiator, at least F/G/K 109s could have two separate radiators. That's what the manual is about. Note that not all planes actually were equipped with separated systems.

Ugly_Kid
04-14-2005, 04:08 AM
It's not about oil - it's about coolant, two different things.

Ratsack
04-14-2005, 05:49 AM
No, I was not talking about the oil cooler. I only mentioned it as in the last line of my post: a nod in the direction of a pet hate, a throw away line. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif You know, where the Il-2 observer gives you the magic bullet that kills your engine and sprays your windsreen with oil, all while he€s hangin€ upside down in his straps as the pilot takes violent evasive action. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Yes, THAT oil cooler. Sheesh http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

What I was pointing out is that in the real 109, the pilot could mitigate the effect of coolant loss due to damage to the wing mounted radiators (for cooling the engine, got it?) by isolating the damaged radiator.

The engine does overheat and seize in this game when there€s engine damage. How much of that damage is modelled as loss of lubricant, and how much is modelled as loss of coolant, Oleg knows.

The other issue I was drawing attention to is the way the radiator flaps are controlled. Anyone got any data or info to illuminate this matter?

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Ratsack

JtD
04-14-2005, 09:32 AM
Your first interpretation seems correct. Auf opens the rad, until you select ruhe where it remains in the position it's currently at.

Oil cooler and engine cooler are seperate things on many planes, I think that's also true for the 109 but I don't know.

Buzzsaw-
04-14-2005, 09:49 AM
Salute

How are you going to know which radiator was hit?

What happens if you shut off the good radiator and keep active the leaking one?

What happens to the overall cooling effectiveness when one radiator is eliminated?

What is the coolant path through the engine from the radiators, and how is one being shut off going to affect the other?

---------

All of these issues would need to be dealt with by Oleg and special modelling changes made to the Sim. For that reason, I doubt you will see it happen.

By the way, we still do not have the manual rad control of the Spitfire VIII and IX which was available to real pilots.

Ratsack
04-14-2005, 01:28 PM
Hi Buzz,

In answer to your questions:

1. You won't (just like RL). Trial and error and - oh my god! - watching the guages http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif;

2. Your engine dies, just like it does now;

3. Given that there's only two radiators, and that this is a game, I'd recommend halving whatever cooling the radiators normally provide under with that rad' flap setting.

4. The last one is, I reckon, irrelevant. Just model it as for my answer to your third question above.

So, the issues would actually be rather simple.

Anyone got anything concrete (a document) on radiator flap operation?

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Ratsack

Fennec_P
04-14-2005, 07:15 PM
1. If a radiator is damaged (ie. punctured), there would be a very noticable vapor trail. Just like in the gun cam videos.

Ratsack
04-15-2005, 04:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
1. If a radiator is damaged (ie. punctured), there would be a very noticable vapor trail. Just like in the gun cam videos. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True. I was thinking of how you'd tell from the cockpit, rather than from outside. But you are right.

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Ratsack

Fehler
04-15-2005, 09:13 AM
OK, the problem here is that I dont believe coolant leaks/damage is in the game at all...

Only oil and fuel. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kurfurst__
04-16-2005, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
By the way, we still do not have the manual rad control of the Spitfire VIII and IX which was available to real pilots. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Radiator control on the Spitfire was automatic only with no manual provision after the Mk V.

Willey
04-16-2005, 03:34 PM
Coolant radiators are completely missing in Il-2 series damage wise. Best try it with some planes that have belly radiators like the Yak series. You can even shoot through them without actually hitting anything.

Von_Zero
04-16-2005, 04:14 PM
a quote from Ion Dobran's book (a romanian 109 pilot):
"i brake diving to the left, but the right cooling radiator is perforated by a projectile. With a white glycol trail, with white and dense smoke behind me, blocking the radiator, (the G had the posibility to isolate the left or right radiator, in cases like this), i had lost too much coolant during the brake maneuvers before blocking it, and now the temperature are starting to go up".

Buzzsaw, about your second question, if you only have one radiator active and also less coolant i'd say logically your engine will overheat more quickly so you would have to keep the power to a lower setting than usual. If you have lost waay to much coolant, it would only delay the death of the engine.

Ratsack, a trail leaking from under the wing would be easily noticed (IRL at least where you have a greater head movement freedom) even from cockpit., so you wouldn't have to "guess" wich is the one working.

Heinz_Schuss
04-18-2005, 06:48 PM
LW aircraft did not use glycol because of the damage it was prone to doing if it contacted aluminium. It also meant that they were easier to service and fill up when deployed on forward and unprepared airfields.

Fennec_P
04-18-2005, 07:08 PM
What did they use, I wonder?

WWMaxGunz
04-18-2005, 09:22 PM
Back in those years my father used alcohol and water in Northern Maine.
When it got really cold, more was alcohol. At least that's what he told me.

p1ngu666
04-18-2005, 09:41 PM
iirec they used 50% water, 47% glycol and 3% corrosion inhibitor

gycol has a higher boiling point than water, but transfers less heat...

p1ngu666
04-18-2005, 09:48 PM
my bad
50% glycol, 47% water, 3% inhibitor

"pressurised to maintain the cooling liquid at 120c"

thats maxium temp i guess? then it boils at 121..?

Kurfurst__
04-20-2005, 09:49 AM
Indeed the DB 605s, and I guess pretty much every LW liquid cooled types used 50-50% glycol/water) plus 1-2 percent of standard lubrication oil as anti-corrosive). Pure water would be quite a madness, say at 10 000m altitude -50 celsius temperature isnt uncommon even during summer, the coolant would freeze and break up the whole powerplant!

What would be the boiling temp of such a 50-50 coolant ?

Merlins used 70% water, 30% glycol as far as I know. Possibly some oil content, too.

BBB_Hyperion
04-27-2005, 08:58 PM
Some Boiling point Data of Ethylene Glycol Water mixtures shouldnt be much different to other solutions. The Water influences the Boiling point most. The Glycol likes to catch water parts what results in the need to exchange the water glycol mixture after some time.

I wish this HTML Tables would work.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
&lt;table BORDER=1&gt;
&lt;CAPTION&gt; Ethylene Glycol 33% solutions under pressure&lt;/CAPTION&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;Mixture 33 %&lt;td&gt;Pressure (kPa)&lt;td&gt;Boiling Point ?Celsius
&lt;tr&gt;33 % &lt;td&gt;0 &lt;td&gt;104.5?C
&lt;tr&gt;33 % &lt;td&gt;25 &lt;td&gt;110.5?C
&lt;tr&gt;33 % &lt;td&gt;50 &lt;td&gt;116.5?C
&lt;tr&gt;33 % &lt;td&gt;75 &lt;td&gt;121.0?C
&lt;tr&gt;33 % &lt;td&gt;100 &lt;td&gt;125.0?C
&lt;tr&gt;33 % &lt;td&gt;150 &lt;td&gt;132.5?C
&lt;tr&gt;33 % &lt;td&gt;200 &lt;td&gt;139.0?C
&lt;tr&gt;33 % &lt;td&gt;250 &lt;td&gt;146.5?C
&lt;/table&gt;

&lt;table BORDER=1&gt;
&lt;CAPTION&gt; Ethylene Glycol 55% solutions under pressure&lt;/CAPTION&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;Mixture 55 %&lt;td&gt;Pressure (kPa)&lt;td&gt;Boiling Point ?Celsius
&lt;tr&gt;55 % &lt;td&gt;0 &lt;td&gt;108.5?C
&lt;tr&gt;55 % &lt;td&gt;25 &lt;td&gt;114.0?C
&lt;tr&gt;55 % &lt;td&gt;50 &lt;td&gt;119.5?C
&lt;tr&gt;55 % &lt;td&gt;75 &lt;td&gt;125.0?C
&lt;tr&gt;55 % &lt;td&gt;100 &lt;td&gt;129.0?C
&lt;tr&gt;55 % &lt;td&gt;150 &lt;td&gt;136.0?C
&lt;tr&gt;55 % &lt;td&gt;200 &lt;td&gt;150.5?C
&lt;tr&gt;55 % &lt;td&gt;250 &lt;td&gt;156.5?C
&lt;/table&gt;

&lt;table BORDER=1&gt;
&lt;CAPTION&gt; 1st Crystal building&lt;/CAPTION&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;Mixture % Ethylene Glycol&lt;td&gt;Point in ?Celsius
&lt;tr&gt;0%&lt;td&gt; -0? C
&lt;tr&gt;10%&lt;td&gt; -3? C
&lt;tr&gt;20%&lt;td&gt; -9? C
&lt;tr&gt;30%&lt;td&gt; -17? C
&lt;tr&gt;40%&lt;td&gt; -27? C
&lt;tr&gt;50%&lt;td&gt; -38? C
&lt;tr&gt;60%&lt;td&gt; -55? C
&lt;tr&gt;68%&lt;td&gt; -73? C
&lt;tr&gt;70%&lt;td&gt; -62? C
&lt;tr&gt;80%&lt;td&gt; -45? C
&lt;tr&gt;90%&lt;td&gt; -27? C
&lt;tr&gt;99%&lt;td&gt; -13? C

&lt;/table&gt;

Note engine damage happens under this temps when various stages of freezing and expanding ice appears.

</pre>

Ratsack
04-27-2005, 09:43 PM
Guys, it doesn't have to be this complicated.

If radiator damage isn't modelled, then we're flogging a dead horse. I don't know if that's the case or not.

If the effects of radiator damage are modelled, I don't think we need to get down to the detail of specific heat and relative boiling points to model the effect.

The macro effects of a gaping hole, leaking coolant to the wind, are likely to swamp the subtle nuances you're aiming at. What I'd like to see is:

1. the damage modelled, if it isn't (or in BoB: I'm patient);
2. the ability to isolate the damaged radiator.


I don't think this is a huge deal, but it might, in conjunction with a few other mods, help moderate the glass jaw of the 109s.

Then all we have to do is get the FW190 wing damage model sorted...and the P47 roll rate...and the MG151...and the Tempest...and ban the Mk108...and...

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Ratsack

p1ngu666
04-27-2005, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Indeed the DB 605s, and I guess pretty much every LW liquid cooled types used 50-50% glycol/water) plus 1-2 percent of standard lubrication oil as anti-corrosive). Pure water would be quite a madness, say at 10 000m altitude -50 celsius temperature isnt uncommon even during summer, the coolant would freeze and break up the whole powerplant!

What would be the boiling temp of such a 50-50 coolant ?

Merlins used 70% water, 30% glycol as far as I know. Possibly some oil content, too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

think some chaps at rolls royce, but maybe somewhere else realised that pressurised system, with a mix of glycol and water gave better results than pure glycol, which didnt remove the heat aswell as water does.

if the water froze, probably freeze in the radiator, thatll stop water flow, and the water in engine will brew up. also the waterpump wont be very happy.

similer happens on cars, mostly rally cars (live in england, we dont get much snow now). iirec the snow blocks the radiator, often melts then reforms as ice, blocking the radiator.