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general_kalle
03-04-2006, 02:38 AM
ive found out that the ai can make suicide attacks/kamikaze on ships and land targets but what about planes? did the japanese use suicide attacks against bombers hitorical?

and lastly is there anyway to do so u plane does not blow when holding on a carrier thats flown into???

hope u understand my english

i know this post was closed below cos of a stupid word.. im sorry if i hurt someone it wasnt my intention but id relly like a answer

HotelBushranger
03-04-2006, 02:45 AM
Ask Billfish for specifics, but as far as I know, they didn't have designated suicide planes, but they had special kill markings when they rammed planes and caused them to crash. It was sort of like a B-24 with a red (?) plane over it.

Lodovik
03-04-2006, 09:27 AM
You need this book:

Kamikaze
by Axell, A. & Kase, H.

It is available in Finnish, too. From Akateeminen kirjakauppa and others for 29,90 Euros, I think.
It has good information on the Japanese special attack units.

general_kalle
03-04-2006, 03:25 PM
can u make the ai fly into enemy bombers???

slo_1_2_3
03-04-2006, 03:38 PM
try putting the plane of you choice with a start and end waypoint target the bomberand then no ammo maybe that will work
im not sure i havent tryed yet but i will in a little bit i'll tell ya what happens

slo_1_2_3
03-04-2006, 06:50 PM
i tried but i couldnt make it happen sorry

LEBillfish
03-04-2006, 08:10 PM
The Japanese from New Guinea on were said to have started using "Taiatari" attacks or "Body Crashing" against bombers...Though claimed in New Guinea my guess is it was rare if ever deliberate....same till the home Islands were attacked.......Once over the home Islands however all bets were off. In fact once Lt. Minoru Shirota rammed a B29 and it was captured on film by a reporter, a whole rash of them began....Some planes even marked with numerous kills from ramming the pilot surviving.

Shinten Seiku-Tai or Shuddering Sky units were actually very prevalent also sometimes listed as "special attack units"......In all frankness the B29's were too tough for the average guns on a Japanese plane. Compounding that was the altitude they could fly at it difficult if not impossible for some Japanese planes to reach.....Solution?....Take out the weight of guns and ammo, get to altitude, dive in and ram.

Units that most see Ki-61 painted as being the 244th, 105th and many others were either entirely or partly Taiatari units.

Nimits
03-04-2006, 10:41 PM
Economically, it wasn't a bad deal, either. Even if the pilot didn't survive, exchanging a single engine, single man fighter for a the most expensive mass produced multi-engine bomber of the time with its ten man crew.

Covino
03-05-2006, 12:08 AM
it was also done by Russian pilots on the eastern front in what were called "taran attacks"
more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramming

AI won't do it but YOU can! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

general_kalle
03-05-2006, 10:13 AM
when i sometimes play lan with a freind we sometimes hit each other when we fly towards each other sometimes we both go down with only one wing sometimes we blow up in mid air
but it happened that we flew into each other but only one of us lost the wing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif
the other one just flow on...mybe th japanese should make their planes extra strong and then fly into the bomber without breaking their own plane

R988z
03-06-2006, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
the other one just flow on...mybe th japanese should make their planes extra strong and then fly into the bomber without breaking their own plane

The Germans were trying to modify and design some aircraft to do this late in the war

general_kalle
03-06-2006, 07:24 AM
at least they didnt make sucide missions

F19_Olli72
03-06-2006, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
at least they didnt make sucide missions

Yes they did. Just not as many or massive attacks as the japanese.
http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/0304354473.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Also there was a sucide mission against a bridge at the river Oder at the very end of the war as a last desperate attempt to slow down the advancing russians.

general_kalle
03-08-2006, 04:21 AM
is there a rule of mordern warfare that says no suicide attacks? just like that cemical warfare isnt alowed...rules of war http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

J_Anonymous
03-08-2006, 07:08 AM
I didn't know until I read LEBillfidh's post above that there were desginated units for ramming attack against B29. Interestingly, her list includes only army airforce, and that does not surprise me ; IJA was truly fanatic, and their officers were NOT well-educated people. In contrast, Imperial Japan's Naval Academy competed with the most prestigeous Imperial Universities in their recruitment efforts of the brightest students. Army officers always had inferiority complex against smart and respected Navy officers, and that probably contributed to their fanatic and insane (and often unacceptable) behaviors in general.

I do know that Navy airforce pilots also conducted ramming attacks against B29's, but my impression was (is) those were spontaneous acts out of desperation of mostly young pilots, who didn't possess skills (and perhaps equipment) to intercept B29. Although it is totally beyond comprehension of the the post-war generation Japanese people, it appears that those pilots who conducted suicide missions genuinely believed that they were defending their mothers and sisters from the upcoming foreign invasion -- only second in the history of Japan since the invasions by Gzhingis Khan (<--spell?) in 12th century.

These ramming attacks should be probably distinguished from the so-called Kamikaze attacks against ships. Most of Kamikaze pilots were _forced_ to "volunteer" to die, while my understanding is that (at least some) B29 ramming-attack pilots repeated their missions multiple times.

In any case, suicide missions were really inhumane, the lowest of the low. The ugly untold fact is that many of the commanders and older officers _forced_ young pilots to "volunteer" for Kamikaze by saying that they will also conduct Kamikaze attack and die once all young pilots are gone; but most of those commanders and older officers survived the war after forcing the younger ones to die. I once watched a TV documentary in Japan about it --- the TV camera keeps chasing very old former officers, and asked "why did you force those young pilots to die in vain? Aren't you ashamed?" They had no answers.

One of my very old uncles was an IJA pilot, but never talked about his experience as a Kamikaze pilot waiting for his mission. His Kamikaze mission was scheduled for September 1945, but the surrender saved his life. He made his living as a commercial pilot, but he never, ever talked about his experience as an IJA pilot. All I know is that his unit was pulled back from Manchuria, then was designated for Kamikaze attack. The surrender did not take place early enough for some of his Kamikaze-designated comrades. I could tell that he had trauma from the experience decades after the war. Contrary to the war time propaganda, there was nothing glorious about those forced suicide missions. I sometimes feel very guilty when I play this game.

Punkfriday
03-08-2006, 07:38 AM
wow. i can (sort of) understand how you feel. (or can i?)
it is kind of like how my grandfather flew C-47s in europe, (including operation market-garden) and he had to fly into combat in an UNARMED aircraft. usually with a load of paratroopers. i don't like playing a mission with c-47s in it, because they are so vunerable, so easy to get shot down. i don't know how he did it day by day.

but i love this game and like the fact that the c-47 is in it! don't change anything!

LEBillfish
03-08-2006, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
........Interestingly, her list includes only army airforce, and that does not surprise me ; IJA was truly fanatic, and their officers were NOT well-educated people. In contrast, Imperial Japan's Naval Academy competed with the most prestigeous Imperial Universities in their recruitment efforts of the brightest students. Army officers always had inferiority complex against smart and respected Navy officers, and that probably contributed to their fanatic and insane (and often unacceptable) behaviors in general.......

ohhhhhhhhh, I don't know about that. First off, I primarily just study JAFC information due to my interest in the 4th Kokugun. Yet I have read of NUMEROUS highly educated folks in the JAFC. In kind, they lived under a very differnt group of rules. As example, think of the beatings and hardships P.O.W.'s fell under. The exact same type of punishments were dealt out to JAFC personnel for sometimes the most minor restrictions.

In kind, many in the JAFC were incredibly intelligent and thoughtful, it was not much different as to class of person that I have found vs. the IJN.

As to suicide/ramming attacks?.....Well remember, in contrast to a Kamikaze which plans to die, Taiatari units planned on ramming and bailing out (hence some who had almost turned it into a well thought out attack).

You have to remember as well, what if your home town was under attack by bombing, you knew there was no where to get your family to safe, knew your plane could not get to the bombers with guns, and felt that due to losing, IF the enemy made it to your home they'd rape, murder, brutalize without mercy your family and friends for revenge, surrender simply expiditing it.

Don't know about you but in such a situation, I'd rather "risk" (as once again the intent was to survive) my life by ramming vs. sacrificing thousands possibly of those I cared for on the ground, more so if it might encourage the enemy to not invade.

Seems fanatical, till you consider the option....

J_Anonymous
03-08-2006, 09:00 AM
OK, OK, when I wrote about the fanatic behavior, what I had in my mind was more about their ground troops counterpart. I didn't mean to say ramming attack was "unacceptable behavior," after all there was no other option, you are right. Blanket characterization of any groups of people in any society often leads to a wrong conclusion, I fully agree with you. I read an article about an IJA pilot who downed multiple B29's by ramming using Ki-100 (? not sure...), and he was the Sentai-cho, I think (Squad leader). His ramming attack was obviosly deliberate, planned attack that required skills (to return to base alive). As a matter of fact, my old uncle (I think he was a IJA liutenant) was an intelligent and decent man. What continues to bother me, and probably all the post-war generation Japanese educated in a democratic society, though, is the harm of war propaganda that skewed human behavior. I had all those in my mind when i wrote the post above and I guess my hasty writing didn't/won't convey all my thoughts.....

ps. I guess I sorta offended LEBillfish, so I hesitate to write the following.... but there is a Japanese saying, "Rikugun-ha aho-dakara" which means "IJA guys were damn". If you read novels and articles that touch on Japan's involvement in WW2 written in Japan after 1945, you often encounter that saying. Postwar Japanese people never idolize IJA. Just a fact...

LEBillfish
03-08-2006, 09:13 AM
Well I guess my point as to the class of soldier compared to seaman was more in light of saying disputing that "all U.S. Marines are ignorrant thugs, or all Army personnel are dull witted drones compared to Naval or Air Force personnel"......Naturally numerous Marines and Army West Pointer's might have something to say about that rightfully so.

Anywho....back to Taiatari http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

J_Anonymous
03-08-2006, 09:22 AM
So how many successful taiatari (ramming) attacks were conducted against B29? Was it a significant number, compared with conventional attacks? Did the pilots typically survive, or they were more likely to perish with thier planes? I have read only about two cases in the past, one was the aforementioned Sentaicho in Ki-100(?) of IJA, the other was a young IJN 343-ku pilot who died in his N1K2 Shidenkai when he downed a B29 over Kyusyu.

F19_Olli72
03-08-2006, 09:57 AM
Ryuji Nagatsuka mentions in his book "I was a kamikaze" that a certain Sergeant Oda was the first to ram a bomber and credits him to have "invented" the ramming tactics. It was in may 8, 1943 during a convoy escort mission in New Guinea. Sgt Oda made repeated attacks against a B-17 with his Ki-43 before ramming it.

J_Anonymous
03-08-2006, 10:37 AM
Even with the "Refly" option in this game, I would not go after B17 with Ki-43. Please correct me if I am wrong, I guess he had only two 7.7mm and/or 12.7mm. (Saburo Sakai mentioned in his book how hard it was to down B-17 even with earlier 20mm cannons of A6M2 Zero's.) I can't imagine.... Does the book say whether his Ki-43 had already been damaged before he rammed?

Doug_Thompson
03-08-2006, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
So how many successful taiatari (ramming) attacks were conducted against B29? Was it a significant number, compared with conventional attacks? Did the pilots typically survive, or they were more likely to perish with thier planes? I have read only about two cases in the past, one was the aforementioned Sentaicho in Ki-100(?) of IJA, the other was a young IJN 343-ku pilot who died in his N1K2 Shidenkai when he downed a B29 over Kyusyu.

Don't know the answers, but losses and inefficiency of daylight bomber lead to low-level night attack, which would have made these types of suicide attacks extremely difficult.

I'm also sure the relatively light armament of many Japanese fighters frustrated many of their pilots to the point that they developed "target fixation." They poured and poured bullets into the enemy and rammed them, either accidentally or on purpose.

Also, a small note: An earlier post commented on "Genghis" attempt to invade Japan. It was Kublai Khan, a grandson (I think) of Genghis Khan, who was defeated by the Japenese in his invasion attempts.

F19_Olli72
03-08-2006, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
Even with the "Refly" option in this game, I would not go after B17 with Ki-43. Please correct me if I am wrong, I guess he had only two 7.7mm and/or 12.7mm. (Saburo Sakai mentioned in his book how hard it was to down B-17 even with earlier 20mm cannons of A6M2 Zero's.) I can't imagine.... Does the book say whether his Ki-43 had already been damaged before he rammed?

No it doesnt say if his plane was damaged or what armament his Ki-43 had, but i guess the difference between two 7.7 mm and 12.7 mm against a B-17 wouldnt have mattered. However the author Ryuji Nagatsuka himself flew both Ki-27 and Ki-45 against B-29's. He started to fly Ki-43 in february 1945.

mnordby
03-12-2006, 08:48 PM
Also, interesting to note, on some of the early B29 attacks LeMay had them remove the guns for added range/payload. I seem to recall that they could just barely reach the home islands and get back after doing this. The crews were, of course, pi**ed. I'm sure they loved using the '29's mechanical computer-controlled aiming system.

LEBillfish
03-12-2006, 09:47 PM
They also learned if you flew low enough, AAA could not touch you as the shells armed too high...SOme of the altitudes stated were rediculously low.

triggerhappyfin
03-13-2006, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
Even with the "Refly" option in this game, I would not go after B17 with Ki-43. Please correct me if I am wrong, I guess he had only two 7.7mm and/or 12.7mm. (Saburo Sakai mentioned in his book how hard it was to down B-17 even with earlier 20mm cannons of A6M2 Zero's.) I can't imagine.... Does the book say whether his Ki-43 had already been damaged before he rammed?

No it doesnt say if his plane was damaged or what armament his Ki-43 had, but i guess the difference between two 7.7 mm and 12.7 mm against a B-17 wouldnt have mattered. However the author Ryuji Nagatsuka himself flew both Ki-27 and Ki-45 against B-29's. He started to fly Ki-43 in february 1945. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I´ve got this book too. Interesting read! The poor Japanese pilots actually encountered the B-29 with only rifle-caliber munitions and with obsolete aircraft not able to catch up the B-29´s. One pass, aiming for cockpit was the only chance.

MiamiEagle
03-13-2006, 07:16 AM
What amaze me about the B29 raids agaist Japan was the Japanese inspite of all their defeciencies and limit ability to defend Japan still manage to shot down several hundred B29 during the war.

Do you guy know that during the whole Korean war the North Korea with their Communist allies help manage to shot down only 29 Bomber and that Bombing campaign lasted a lot longer.

You know more than 2,300 B29 landed in Iwo Jima because of damage recieved during raids over Japan in less than five month.

Some thing that Historians alway miss is that the reason the responce to the B29 raids over Japan in June and July 1945 were so weak was that Japan was holding back her Airforces for the Home land Invation.

The whole war was tough and it took guts and Blood to win that war.

Hope to God we do not have to fight another one.

Miamieagle

J_Anonymous
03-13-2006, 04:52 PM
When I read Flyboys, I was indeed amazed to learn that a fairly significant number of B29's were lost. Is there any statistics about how many B29 were downed by fighter planes? I am sure the Japanese side had a statistics (of some sort), but I am afraid the number of B29 "downed" was probably greater than the total number of B29 ever manufactured! In Japanese, the phrase "daihonei happyo" means "outright lie" today. Originally, the phrase meant "according to the announcement from the imperial armed forces headquaters."

The caption of one of the photos LEBillfish posted recently in a different thread says --- I am sure she know it --- a Ki-61 which "taiatari"-ed (ramm-ed) a B29 but managed to land. The caption says the Ki-61 has a dent from the collision underneath the plane. Maybe I should learn that trick for on-line encounter with bombers.

Originally posted by MiamiEagle:
Hope to God we do not have to fight another one.

I am originally from Japan. I've been living in the States and Canada for years, and I tend to see everything from both sides. We are indeed lucky we were born after all those things were over.... (I assume we are all younger that 80 years old). Japan is now a country of democracy, it won't happen again.

ps. BTW MiamiEagle is a nice name (I love Miami). If I attach "Eagle" to the name of my city, it does not sound cool.