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budvar62
11-24-2004, 08:42 AM
Which is harder??!

Just started the RAAF Beaufighter campaign last night. Haven't been able to get the patch yet (56k - argh) so after a couple of abortive attempts started it again with me as squadron leader which meant I could give all the beaus instructions and get them over the mountains. Anyway - gets close to the mission objectives - japanese artillery / aaa at the far end of the island and contrary to (but not unexpectedly) the briefing I see a bunch of dots swelling ominously in the gunsight. I'm playing full real so I can't ID them but pretty sure they aren't mine. Within seconds they've grown enough to be some sort of radial engined fighter, which I'm convinced we don't have in the RAAF, and they are heading straight at me so I squeeze the cannon trigger and the lead aircraft disintegrates. Amazingly the second plane (right behind) loses a good chunk of wing and spirals up then down and the third peels off trailing fuel - this is from a 1-2 second burst. How good are 4 x 20mm in the nose - no convergence issues to worry about. This is amazing - never got two kills in one shot before! Wreckage from plane one scatters around me and there's a colossal thump (MS FFB) - in fact I actually ducked as his flaming engine flew over my canopy - immersion or what! Now I know the beau is no dogfighter and there's a comeuppance waiting to happen so I put the nose down and dive hard to the target zone. Apparently I outrun everything at this point and the beau ceratinly picks up a colossal wadge of speed. Level out at 200ft and I can see AAA opening up ahead so slight yoyo and walk .303 fire close then unload all 8 rockets. Am rewarded with Enemy AAA destoyed as well. Plane is a bit sluggish in the turn and I take a lot of hits banking round to strafe another site - meanwhile two of my flight are also claiming air kills, though one gets shot down afterwards. I command them to hit ground targets and there are several target detroyed messages. Onother squad mate has to bale out. I try to strafe again, beau is bit unresponsive but very stable. Use up all the 20mm ammo but no more kills - order squadron to run for home base. Eventually land and allow myself to look at plane using F2 - holes everywhere, port elevator missing and rudder shredded. I'm not that good a pilot but landed wasn't that big a deal. The beau always was my fav. plane - got a Tamiya 1/48 sitting above the pc, but this was fan-bloody-tastic. The only other aircraft that soaks up and dishes out damage in the game like this is the Il2 - which I'd never heard of before the game but still fly more than anything else now. Never seen either in real life, know a bit about the beau and read a bit about the IL2 cos of the game and they were both supposed to be able to soak it up big style (german name for the beau was the snub nosed battleship) so suspect the modelling is not too OTT.

So - the $64,000 question - do you think the beau or the IL2 is the hardest plane?

budvar62
11-24-2004, 08:42 AM
Which is harder??!

Just started the RAAF Beaufighter campaign last night. Haven't been able to get the patch yet (56k - argh) so after a couple of abortive attempts started it again with me as squadron leader which meant I could give all the beaus instructions and get them over the mountains. Anyway - gets close to the mission objectives - japanese artillery / aaa at the far end of the island and contrary to (but not unexpectedly) the briefing I see a bunch of dots swelling ominously in the gunsight. I'm playing full real so I can't ID them but pretty sure they aren't mine. Within seconds they've grown enough to be some sort of radial engined fighter, which I'm convinced we don't have in the RAAF, and they are heading straight at me so I squeeze the cannon trigger and the lead aircraft disintegrates. Amazingly the second plane (right behind) loses a good chunk of wing and spirals up then down and the third peels off trailing fuel - this is from a 1-2 second burst. How good are 4 x 20mm in the nose - no convergence issues to worry about. This is amazing - never got two kills in one shot before! Wreckage from plane one scatters around me and there's a colossal thump (MS FFB) - in fact I actually ducked as his flaming engine flew over my canopy - immersion or what! Now I know the beau is no dogfighter and there's a comeuppance waiting to happen so I put the nose down and dive hard to the target zone. Apparently I outrun everything at this point and the beau ceratinly picks up a colossal wadge of speed. Level out at 200ft and I can see AAA opening up ahead so slight yoyo and walk .303 fire close then unload all 8 rockets. Am rewarded with Enemy AAA destoyed as well. Plane is a bit sluggish in the turn and I take a lot of hits banking round to strafe another site - meanwhile two of my flight are also claiming air kills, though one gets shot down afterwards. I command them to hit ground targets and there are several target detroyed messages. Onother squad mate has to bale out. I try to strafe again, beau is bit unresponsive but very stable. Use up all the 20mm ammo but no more kills - order squadron to run for home base. Eventually land and allow myself to look at plane using F2 - holes everywhere, port elevator missing and rudder shredded. I'm not that good a pilot but landed wasn't that big a deal. The beau always was my fav. plane - got a Tamiya 1/48 sitting above the pc, but this was fan-bloody-tastic. The only other aircraft that soaks up and dishes out damage in the game like this is the Il2 - which I'd never heard of before the game but still fly more than anything else now. Never seen either in real life, know a bit about the beau and read a bit about the IL2 cos of the game and they were both supposed to be able to soak it up big style (german name for the beau was the snub nosed battleship) so suspect the modelling is not too OTT.

So - the $64,000 question - do you think the beau or the IL2 is the hardest plane?

Gato__Loco
11-24-2004, 11:55 AM
I think the beaufighter have bigger guns, but the IL2 is better armored.

Tobus75
11-24-2004, 12:30 PM
IL2 has better armor and more ammo to punch those nice holes into, well, anything. It is somewhat heavier on the controls, but it is the plane in which I get flamed the least while having lost most parts of the plane when landing.

MacLyver
11-24-2004, 12:36 PM
I would go for IL2 for two reasons, it can take a beating and still bring you home and you have a rear gunner to shoot back at the fighters.

Eternal_T-Gunny
11-24-2004, 01:07 PM
I only have basic FB, but I have tested the armor of the IL2 many times. I use it for target practice because it can take so much. I empty my 8 .303's in the Hawker without it taking an ounce of damage (the bullets bouncing off s a pretty cool graphic). AS an Me109, I can empty everything into it and as long as I dont put more than 5 20mm in the tail the IL2 will keep flying. Once you get up to 30mm of AA it gets a bit shaky and looses control quickly from the damages, but wont break apart or go down.

scootertgm
11-24-2004, 01:10 PM
Eternal, Stop shooting Dead 6-o'clock. Slide out to the side and pick on teh wings or make an angled attack and you'll see much better gunnery results.

Eternal_T-Gunny
11-24-2004, 01:12 PM
I was shooting 6 o clock just to test the armor. I'm not thatbad a pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Buckaroo12
11-24-2004, 03:37 PM
Beau Vs. IL-2... That's a tough one for me. I have some family history in the beau, it was my granddads ride before he moved into mosquito's so the Beau has a sentimental place in my heart.

That said, I like the load-outs and rear-gunner for the IL-2 better. I haven't really had time to do a comparison, they both seem to soak up the rounds pretty good. The IL-2 also seems to be a little more agile, although I think the Beau moves a little faster though which can make a big difference if you're out numbered!

Right now, I'm happy to sit on the fence and fly both of them!!!

clint-ruin
11-24-2004, 05:11 PM
The Beau is IMHO a much much better aircraft in any meaningful comparison. Much wider range of missions, and endurance as well.

The soviets planned to make a very very similar plane - looks very familiar to the Beau indeed. It was called the Su-8 and would have come into production around the same time as the Il-10 if the project had gone ahead. Armament was 8xShKAS unsynch at 2800RPM, and four of the Yak-9Ks 45mm antitank cannons in a centreline battery. Upper and lower quadrant turrets like the Pe-2, and a split tail unlike the cranked Beau 21 tail.

In many ways the Beau would have been a more appropriate aircraft for the VVS than the Il-2. They were very short of metal - another wooden aircraft would have taken a load off their reserves. That said their output quality and quantity of any engine was pretty raw in the early war years, and making high-attrition aircraft that cost two working engines apiece might not have been so good. The ability to do fast / long range strikes and strafes into enemy supply lines is pretty groovy and might have been worth it given the Germans overstretched lines. Certainly the P-51s and 47s and 38s [and beaus/mosquitos] found it pretty effective at disrupting them in the west.

Mozzie_21
11-24-2004, 06:03 PM
Well the beau is a heavy fighter. I wouldn't really dogfight in it, but it isn't as dedicated to attack as the Il-2.

The beaufighter was very fast at low level. The standard drill for RAAF beaufighters when attacked by japanese fighters was just to turn and ourtrun them....

Fennec_P
11-24-2004, 06:14 PM
The beau doesn't have much armor, but it also takes a beating before going down.

You really have to whale on them, and they are not very prone to fires. I dare say it takes more hits than an IL-2, especially to take wings off.

budvar62
11-25-2004, 04:57 AM
Thanks for the thought all. Agree about the rear gunner, but hopefully will get that for the beau one day ;-)

Clint - never heard of the Su-8, but the thought of 4 centreline 45mm is mind-boggling. You could have drilled for oil with a load-out like that - do you have any ref's or more info on it? Any prototypes ever fly?

Generally I'm happy to have both of these beauties - the real spirit of "Forgotten Battles" if you ask me...

Gonna be away for a few days but will be back next week (long weekend in the big apple) iand will check back then.

TTFN

FI-finbar1
11-25-2004, 06:21 AM
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n2/su-8.html

Snootles
11-25-2004, 09:08 AM
The biggest difference I think between the two is that the Beau was also meant from the beginning to be a night-fighter. That in turn necessitated the layout.

Bewolf
11-25-2004, 09:36 AM
great duels = beau + messer110

VF51_Flatspin
11-25-2004, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bewolf:
great duels = beau + messer110 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now THAT sounds like a cool DF server! I'd make the mission today if I could host the booger!

Beau also had much farther range. And don't forget...it comes standard with stereo speakers in the 'pit! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Aaron_GT
11-25-2004, 10:26 AM
"The soviets planned to make a very very similar plane - looks very familiar to the Beau indeed. It was called the Su-8 and would have come into production around the same time as the Il-10 if the project had gone ahead. Armament was 8xShKAS unsynch at 2800RPM, and four of the Yak-9Ks 45mm antitank cannons in a centreline battery. Upper and lower quadrant turrets like the Pe-2, and a split tail unlike the cranked Beau 21 tail."

Holy moly - that's quite an armament!

p1ngu666
11-25-2004, 11:22 AM
clint, bue is all metal, not wood http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

beu has 4 20mm, vs the 2 23mm of il2, so beu gets advantage mostly.
il2 can take rockets and bombs, bue cant take both at the same time (ingame atleast)

il2 does 250mph ish, bue 300mph ish

i think il2s have had weakness whinned into them by luftwhiners. bue is structuraly strong but not armoured like il2

beu does 300ish on the deck, so dive and run from zero's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

clint-ruin
11-25-2004, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
clint, bue is all metal, not wood http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually got that wrong solely as a result of looking it up to check! :&gt; I vaguely remembered field repairs being done with wood and googled it .. match came up bla bla "wooden construction" .. turns out I was looking at a page for the Bristol Fighter (http://www.fighter-collection.com/brisfit/) instead. Gah.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
beu has 4 20mm, vs the 2 23mm of il2, so beu gets advantage mostly.
il2 can take rockets and bombs, bue cant take both at the same time (ingame atleast) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stores tended to vary for both depending on the type and year obviously though. The roles given to the Il-2I and Il2-T for instance would have been much better suited to a Beau variant, obviously. Given the soviets love of high caliber aircraft guns I'm sure they would have come out with something weird to stick in the Beaus nose!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>i think il2s have had weakness whinned into them by luftwhiners. bue is structuraly strong but not armoured like il2

beu does 300ish on the deck, so dive and run from zero's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the Il2s are terribly weak beyond some interesting control loss hits from time to time. Certainly if any other plane is silly enough to get low and slow with the Il2 it can give them a very bad headache. Most of what can out-turn it [zero/iar/etc] can't take the punishment from the gunners UBT very well at all. Would love to get some kind of Beau with a back gun myself :&gt;

And yes the Su-8 was a pretty amazing aircraft - just another casualty of being "not better enough" rather than "not good enough" in the VVS. Performance of the type seems good enough to definitely get it a ban online though :&gt;

NorrisMcWhirter
11-25-2004, 02:10 PM
Hi,

For meaningful ground pounding, I'd take the Il-2 every time - it's simply a flying tank.

The Beau is more versatile and suitable for those less frantic hit and run affairs + it has the ability to get you home on one engine.

Also, the Me110 is no match for the Beau at the moment, rear gunner or otherwise. It outflies it hands down.

Cheers,
Norris

Mjollnir111675
11-25-2004, 02:35 PM
I'd have ta throw the P-38 in there as a ground pounder too though!!

Beirut
11-25-2004, 06:16 PM
If the Beaufighter had better payloads, it would be my choice ride. Nice and fast. have shot down lots of 109s and 110s with it. Not online though.

But I have flown the IL2 Series 3 and the Il2 M3 online a lot and have really pissed of the fighter jockeys. They put a few in my six, overshoot, then get stomped into little pieces when they come into my twelve oclock. It's lovely to see the 109s and 190s suck up 50 rounds of 23mm cannon. Great fun. Drives them nuts! I always get nuked in the end, but I get to cause a lot of damage before I bail.

Don't even ask what happens to a 109 or 190 when the M3 hits it square with the 37mm cannons. Nothing left but oil and dust. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Can't wait to try the Beaufighter online and hit the LW fighter with all guns at once. "BOOM" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Mozzie_21
11-25-2004, 10:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
The Beau is more versatile and suitable for those less frantic hit and run affairs + it has the ability to get you home on one engine.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, the two engines are good especially in the pacific where one might have to make long flights over water.

WOLFMondo
11-26-2004, 03:26 AM
There both versitile, I think the Beau has it on range and redundency with 2 engines and carrying capacity and that massive punch with 4 20mm Hispano's. Its also faster than the IL2. But the IL2 has the rear gunner, incredible armour, good visibility, especially to the rear compared with the beaufighter amd its easier to fly.

I guess the question is looking at who they were fighting. In a dead run the Beaufighter could outpace its Japanese opponents and over Europe was escorted whereas the Il2's went unescorted somtimes and could not outrun there persuers so relied on there armour and rear gunners.

Dog fighting in a Beau is hardwork and the rear visibility makes it almost fruitless against fighters but I love dog fighting in IL2's, there great fun.

Would the IL2 been as good a night fighter as the Beau? Not at all.

HamishUK
11-26-2004, 04:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snootles:
The biggest difference I think between the two is that the Beau was also meant from the beginning to be a night-fighter. That in turn necessitated the layout. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the Beau became a nightfighter as a result of its fighting abilities. It adopted the role after the Air Ministry saw its potential. It was later replaced in the NF role by the Mosquito.

The Air Ministry requirement was for a long range fighter able to channel hop effectively and for long range endurance during the Med Campaigns. The layout was derived from this requirementand not from any nightfighter requests.

In fact a fair few pilots who flew the Beau said that despite its success (attributed to their skill more than anything else) the Beau was a very innefficent design for Night fighting as the radio Op/ observer was in the back. Not good for long night patrols. Hence the side by side cockpit in the Mosquito proved a far more efficient design for communication and teamwork.

WIFC_Phantom
11-26-2004, 04:46 AM
the beaufighter is a very effective but i have found you really need flights of 3 all with voice comms to be able to dogfight effectivly to make up for the back of vision past 3 and 9 o clock positions.

I reckon the Beaufighter beats IL2 hands down thanks to it's speed, range, durability and armament.

Bewolf
11-26-2004, 06:27 AM
Hi,

For meaningful ground pounding, I'd take the Il-2 every time - it's simply a flying tank.

The Beau is more versatile and suitable for those less frantic hit and run affairs + it has the ability to get you home on one engine.

Also, the Me110 is no match for the Beau at the moment, rear gunner or otherwise. It outflies it hands down.

Cheers,
Norris

Have todisagree. I set up an Africa 1942 server (with Beau 44 compromise)

And I got two beaus flying as team in a row with the 110. Was great fun and got me the statement "Beaus is no match for the 110". Don't underestimate the 110s Zoom and Turn abilities.

Petey78
11-26-2004, 09:33 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by clint-ruin:
In many ways the Beau would have been a more appropriate aircraft for the VVS than the Il-2. They were very short of metal - another wooden aircraft would have taken a load off their reserves.[QUOTE]

Sorry Chap but the Beau was all metal, it was the Mossie that was made of balsa and ply!

Hendley
11-26-2004, 01:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HamishUK:
In fact a fair few pilots who flew the Beau said that despite its success (attributed to their skill more than anything else) the Beau was a very innefficent design for Night fighting as the radio Op/ observer was in the back. Not good for long night patrols. Hence the side by side cockpit in the Mosquito proved a far more efficient design for communication and teamwork. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny you mention this. In "Night Fighter", CF Rawnsley (John Cunningham's radar operator for most of the war), seemed to dislike the transition from Beau to Mossie precisely because he had to go up front and sit next to the pilot.

For him anyway, having the radar well away from the pilot worked better. That way he could concentrate on deciphering the signals and directing the hunt, and the pilot could focus on piloting the plane and scanning the skies visually.

Of course, the pilots probably had a different view of things.

p1ngu666
11-26-2004, 05:02 PM
well clint, atleast that one has a rear gun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

i think the mossie was prefered nf type, certainly could outperform the ju88 and bf110, the owl thing was a tougher apponent.

generaly, at night the kill was done and enemy aircraft knew afterwards. very rare to get return fire i think