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View Full Version : Negative torque effect doesn't improve the flight model in 4.0m.



studiox19
06-11-2005, 04:35 PM
Hey, Oleg,

OK. Imagine i'm back in 1944 and i've just taken off in my P51. My plane naturally rolls to the left. Fine. I can put a bit of trim on the airelons(?) whilst in the cockpit and get my plane to assume level flight without any input from the stick. Great.

OK. Imagine i'm back in 44 and i'm just about to take of in my BF109/ FW 190 (any plane that has no auto trim). Before i get into the cockpit i do my preflight checks. Check airelons - ah, great, the trim tabs are still in their tested positions, set up to cancel out that horrid left roll torque from the engine enabling me to get level flight as soon as i'm in the air. . . . . . . .

Surely, to be accurate, that negative trim effect should only be present when the trim tabs have been blown away by enemy fire. . . .

NonWonderDog
06-11-2005, 04:42 PM
Uhh... what?

The engine tries to spin the plane as well as the prop. Newton's third law, ya know?


The rudder and ailerons are used to apply a torque in the opposite direction to keep the plane from rolling. These control surfaces have less effect at low speed, and more effect at high speed. All the trim tabs do is change the center position of the control surfaces, performing almost exactly the same function as your hands on the stick. You have to change trim as you change speed.

So... what's your problem again?

LEXX_Luthor
06-11-2005, 04:42 PM
Anybody understand the first poster ?

I thought William Falkner was tough reading. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Zyzbot
06-11-2005, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by studiox19:
Hey, Oleg,

OK. Imagine i'm back in 1944 and i've just taken off in my P51. My plane naturally rolls to the left. Fine. I can put a bit of trim on the airelons(?) whilst in the cockpit and get my plane to assume level flight without any input from the stick. Great.

OK. Imagine i'm back in 44 and i'm just about to take of in my BF109/ FW 190 (any plane that has no auto trim). Before i get into the cockpit i do my preflight checks. Check airelons - ah, great, the trim tabs are still in their tested positions, set up to cancel out that horrid left roll torque from the engine enabling me to get level flight as soon as i'm in the air. . . . . . . .

Surely, to be accurate, that negative trim effect should only be present when the trim tabs have been blown away by enemy fire. . . .

description of take off and flying a 109:

"Here we go... Power gently up and keep it coming smoothly up to +8 (46")... it's VERY noisy ! Keep the tail down initially, keep it straight by feel rather than any positive technique... tail coming up now... once the rudders effective. Unconcious corrections to the rudder are happening all the time. It's incredcibly entertaining to watch the '109 take off or land. The rudder literally flashes around ! The alternative technique (rather tongue in cheek) is Walter Eichorn's, of using full right rudder throughout the take-off roll and varying the swing with the throttle !

The little fighter is now bucketing along, accelerating rapidly. As the tail lifts there is a positive tendancy to swing left - this can be checked easily however, although if you are really agressive lifting the tail it is difficult to stop and happens very quickly. Now the tail's up and you can see vagualy where you are going. It's a rough, wild, buckety ride on grass and with noise, smoke from the stakcs and the aeroplane bouncing around it's exciting ! "

http://www.bf109.com/flying.html#HANNA

Archangel2980
06-11-2005, 04:52 PM
hehe

studiox19
06-11-2005, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
Uhh... what?

The engine tries to spin the plane as well as the prop. Newton's third law, ya know?


The rudder and ailerons are used to apply a torque in the opposite direction to keep the plane from rolling. These control surfaces have less effect at low speed, and more effect at high speed. All the trim tabs do is change the center position of the control surfaces, performing almost exactly the same function as your hands on the stick. You have to change trim as you change speed.

So... what's your problem again?

In patch 4.0m. nearly all planes suffer with waht you've just succinctly explained. They didn't in 3.04m and all previous. It's an effect added into the FM to make it more 'realistic'. Are you with me so far, or do you want me to spell it out.
In most planes you can adjust tabs on the control surfaces to counter inbalance. Some are automatic, some are manual. 109s and 190s were manual. These would have been adjusted in test flights.DO-YOU-UNDERSTAND, or do you want me to write a page explaining this or list endless links to pages that will(you can s*d off, by the way)

Scen
06-11-2005, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Archangel2980:
hehe

Here's a posting I put in another thread but this will help you understand all the different things that cause an airplane to turn. Not sure the sim calcs any of this but this is the real deal...

There are basically four "effects" from the action of the propeller; well, five if you count the thrust! They are: spiral propwash, asymmetric loading (p-factor), torque, and gyroscopic effects. We'll look at each of these in turn.

Spiral Propwash. The prop does not throw the propwash straight back - there's some drag on the prop, and that tends to make the wash behind it come off in a spiral fashion. And the problem comes when that spiral flow meets the rudder. If the rudder/fin is mounted high, the plane will turn (yaw) left because only the top part of the spiral hits it. See fig. 1. On a taildragger at rest, tail down, this may not be the case, and even the reverse may be true because the propwash must be mostly parallel to the ground.

P-Factor. Asymmetrical thrust is most apparent with taildraggers because it's mostly a function of the prop not being perpendicular to the oncoming airflow - but that can also happen with any plane when at a high angle of attack, like right AFTER takeoff. When the air is coming into the prop at an angle instead of square to it, one side of the prop operates at a higher angle of attack than the other, and the resultant thrust is no longer acting on the planes' centerline, but off to one side. And that makes the plane want to turn. See fig. 3. The usual case, nose high, gives us a left turn.

Torque. Our props have a certain amount of drag - and the torque (twisting force) the engine exerts on the air is, in opposite fashion, also exerted through the engine mount to the airplane. Since all our props turn to the right, that means there is a force trying to twist (roll) the airplane to the left. Note that this force is about the ROLL axis - the torque forces do not by themselves TURN or yaw the plane as do the previous two effects. We automatically take care of this with ailerons in keeping the wings level, and it really doesn't take much force from the ailerons to do it. On the ground, all torque forces are countered by the wheels.

Gyroscopic effect. The weight of the fast-turning prop creates a gyroscope, which will resist any change in the direction of its rotating axis. This is easily overcome by the planes controls - but the more detectable gyroscopic effect comes AS THE DIRECTION IS CHANGING. As the planes direction is changing, as in a sudden pull-up, gyroscopic forces try to rotate the plane about an axis 90 degrees to the axis you're forcing it. In the example of a sudden pitch up, the gyro action from the prop will try to force the plane to turn (YAW) to the right. Don't believe it? Try it - the next time you're holding your plane nose up at full power to check your mixture, rotate the plane sharply nose up and down. You'll feel the sideways pressure from this force. In flight, its almost negligible, except perhaps at near zero airspeed if you do a VERY quick stall turn or flopover.

So what is one to do? Answer- know what your planes characteristics are, and compensate - with THE RUDDER! Let's take an example; the Piper Cub, well known for its tendency to ground loop on take off. Here's what happens: you gas the engine, and immediately have to put in some right rudder to keep it from turning to the left, from the p-factor on the prop. With the tail down, the tailwheel gets more effective as you begin to roll, and you have to let up on the rudder. But then the tail comes up - and the fin and rudder, which were low and were getting equal right and left yaw from the spiral effect, now pop up into only the top portion of the spiral propwash. The Cub will now sharply turn left unless you are quick to shove on the right rudder. As the Cub accelerates, the fin/rudder get more straight airflow and again you must let up on the right rudder to keep it straight! Whoo! And we're not even airborne yet!

One method to tame the initial gyrations is to hold the tail down for part or all of the take off run - this keeps the tailwheel firmly in contact with the runway, stabilizing directional control considerably. A touch of up elevator does wonders here; just remember to slack off the elevator at lift off to keep from climbing too steeply.

Suppose you pull the plane off early, while very slow. You are at a high angle of attack, and the p-factor (and maybe some spiral effect, too) will try to turn you to the left again. Assuming that you keep the wings level with aileron, RUDDER is the proper way to correct the left drift. If you only correct with right aileron, the plane will be in a skid, in unbalanced flight, and you're setting yourself up for a stall/snap/crash, bigtime!

Just how much prop effects affect your planes behavior depends on the plane. A pattern-type plane is affected very little. A front engined delta, which can operate at very high angles of attack (lots of p-factor) and has a very high tail (spiral propwash), is affected considerably - you get a sore thumb from standing on the right rudder. And your planes probably fall somewhere in between those two extremes.

Understand what is happening with your plane - and learn to make the PROPER corrections (quite often with right rudder). You'll be a better, smoother pilot, and you may just save a plane or two!


Scendore

diomedes33
06-11-2005, 05:31 PM
The 190s, 109s and spitfire aileron/rudder trims are all set to some cruising speed. If you are above or below this speed the plane will still roll. There is no way to trim the plane for all flight situations using a static trim.

I believe this is modeled but I haven't tested it extensively. I was doing some fuel consumption tests with the 190, set engine to 2300 rpm trimed elevator for level flight and the plane didn't roll noticeably.

studiox19
06-11-2005, 05:33 PM
. . . . you trying to tell me - in real life - the planes are meant to roll to the left? And this new (4.0M) FM patch is more like real life? Ah well, f*ck it. Back to the drawing board. I was getting good as well . . . . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

SeaFireLIV
06-11-2005, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Scen:
Understand what is happening with your plane - and learn to make the PROPER corrections (quite often with right rudder). You'll be a better, smoother pilot, and you may just save a plane or two!


This simple paragragh demonstrates the problem here on these forums and I`ll bet Oleg`s sick of it. So many complainers of the Torque simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND how an engine affects a WWII aircraft.

Now I don`t pretend to fully understand what`s going on with torque in WWII aircraft, but i`m not so stupid as to assume I am an aeronautical engineer and post to whine that the torque is wrong if I haven`t a clue.

Yet so many whiners here do. I haven`t seen one whiner with a complaint about the torque or FMs present valid proof that it`s way off or unreal. All it appears to be is the baby `I don`t like it - waaaah!`

The gall of it is just amazing.

JG7_Rall
06-11-2005, 05:41 PM
I don't think he was asking for a scientific explaination of WHY this effect is happening. So all you smart asses who want to show of your copy/paste skills and get awarded a gold star by posted useless albeit impressive looking information should STFU.

Ahhh, that feels better.

Btw, I had no problem following to original poster. Although these trim tabs were adjusted before take off in planes like the 109 (since one can't do it from the cockpit) as far as I know there's still going to be some roll unless your power setting is at X and your trim tabs are set to counter this torque exactly. However, anything above or below this setting will make you roll in one direction or the other. Is that right?

|CoB|_Spectre
06-11-2005, 06:32 PM
Where in the world did you find where it is written anywhere saying "rudder and ailerons are used to apply a torque". I can understand they may exert aerodynamic forces to counter torque reaction, but that is not the same thing as applying a torque. After all, rudders and ailerons do not exert twist, which is necessary for torque. As Oleg told someone who said they'd read the Spitfire was made of wood, put that book away and never look at it again.

Chuck_Older
06-11-2005, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by studiox19:
. . . . you trying to tell me - in real life - the planes are meant to roll to the left? And this new (4.0M) FM patch is more like real life? Ah well, f*ck it. Back to the drawing board. I was getting good as well . . . . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

What's your knowledge of actual piston driven aircraft? It seems you misunderstand and/or have some misconceptions

Blackdog5555
06-11-2005, 07:25 PM
I dont understand how guys use the word "horrid". I thought only girls could use that word.

p1ngu666
06-11-2005, 07:32 PM
well, they make the plane twist http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
point is moot tho, static trim if for 1 speed, so if your above or below that speed the plane will roll and yaw.

if u look at film or pics of planes taking off, they will often crab a fair bit.

also torque should be more noticeable in the yaw axis, thats why planes have rudder trim but not aliron.

lack of trim was one of the biggest falts with the 109 and 190 imo, kurfy said the 109 could of had full axis trim but didnt because of cost...

WWMaxGunz
06-11-2005, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by |CoB|_Spectre:
After all, rudders and ailerons do not exert twist, which is necessary for torque.


Another one.

How do you think you bank a plane to turn if the ailerons don't provide twist?
Yes, you turn the plane along the roll axis by applying torque.
And BTW, so does the rudder but it's not so easily obvious.

Please note this was done without any cut and paste.

WWMaxGunz
06-11-2005, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by studiox19:
In most planes you can adjust tabs on the control surfaces to counter inbalance.

So far, correct.


Some are automatic, some are manual.

What? Where do you get that one from? AUTOMATIC TRIM? Where? When?


109s and 190s were manual. These would have been adjusted in test flights.DO-YOU-UNDERSTAND, or do you want me to write a page explaining this or list endless links to pages that will(you can s*d off, by the way)

Please, let's see those sodding links!

And do you have any idea who you just fed that pile of horse droppings to?
Maybe some day, with a lot of work you can know half as much about flight as he does now.
Hint: he doesn't get his understanding about it from SIMS.

|CoB|_Spectre
06-11-2005, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
if u look at film or pics of planes taking off, they will often crab a fair bit.

also torque should be more noticeable in the yaw axis, thats why planes have rudder trim but not aliron.
...

Are you reading this from the same book NonWonderDog is using? If so, likewise put it away and don't ever look at it again.

The crab angle you're seeing could well have more to do with maintaining runway heading on departure in a crosswind than with torque. Once you leave the ground, you're moving in the air mass, just as a boat on a river is subject to the water's current, requiring compensation to maintain the desired course, which may be considerably different the aircraft's heading.

Aircraft often do have aileron trim, as well as rudder trim, particularly those with higher performance. Torque reaction affecting the roll axis is vastly more pronounced when you're talking engines of 1000+ horsepower. That's why injudicious application of power at critical phases of approach-to-landing, such as a missed approach, could torque-roll the aircraft, resulting in fatal crashes.

VW-IceFire
06-11-2005, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by studiox19:
Hey, Oleg,

OK. Imagine i'm back in 1944 and i've just taken off in my P51. My plane naturally rolls to the left. Fine. I can put a bit of trim on the airelons(?) whilst in the cockpit and get my plane to assume level flight without any input from the stick. Great.

OK. Imagine i'm back in 44 and i'm just about to take of in my BF109/ FW 190 (any plane that has no auto trim). Before i get into the cockpit i do my preflight checks. Check airelons - ah, great, the trim tabs are still in their tested positions, set up to cancel out that horrid left roll torque from the engine enabling me to get level flight as soon as i'm in the air. . . . . . . .

Surely, to be accurate, that negative trim effect should only be present when the trim tabs have been blown away by enemy fire. . . .
I'm no expert but are you refering to the process where planes were checked out and the trim tabs were pre-set as best as possible. If thats what you're talking about then you're probably right.

My suggestion: Use the < and > keys to help in the German planes.

NonWonderDog
06-11-2005, 08:10 PM
Come on, torque in an physics sense: "A force times distance, creating rotation." Control surfaces, in a rough sense, apply a torque around the CG of the plane. You can't counter torque without applying torque.

You shouldn't be so anal about semantics, anyway.

|CoB|_Spectre
06-11-2005, 08:20 PM
Nothing anal about it, people just need to understand the forces at work and torque is but one of them. Scen's post about the other forces affecting propellar-driven aircraft brings these into focus. To talk about torque reaction without including P-factor, prop slipstream and gyroscopic precession is to misunderstand the principles that govern what we're discussing. Everyone benefits from a good, fundamental understanding so their discussions don't continue to misinform.

TAGERT.
06-11-2005, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by studiox19:
Hey, Oleg,

OK. Imagine i'm back in 1944 and i've just taken off in my P51. My plane naturally rolls to the left. Fine. I can put a bit of trim on the airelons(?) whilst in the cockpit and get my plane to assume level flight without any input from the stick. Great.

OK. Imagine i'm back in 44 and i'm just about to take of in my BF109/ FW 190 (any plane that has no auto trim). Before i get into the cockpit i do my preflight checks. Check airelons - ah, great, the trim tabs are still in their tested positions, set up to cancel out that horrid left roll torque from the engine enabling me to get level flight as soon as i'm in the air. . . . . . . .

Surely, to be accurate, that negative trim effect should only be present when the trim tabs have been blown away by enemy fire. . . . Looks like sombody didnt realise that trim settings and thier effect is depended on how fast the plane is going.

TAGERT.
06-11-2005, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by studiox19:
In patch 4.0m. nearly all planes suffer with waht you've just succinctly explained. They didn't in 3.04m and all previous. It's an effect added into the FM to make it more 'realistic'. Are you with me so far, or do you want me to spell it out. Problly wouldnt hurt you to spell it out.. In that it may help you realise how wrong you are from the get go?


Originally posted by studiox19:
In most planes you can adjust tabs on the control surfaces to counter inbalance. Some are automatic, some are manual. 109s and 190s were manual. These would have been adjusted in test flights. Wrongo! I dont know of any planes in this sim that had automatic trim in RL! Thus all the planes in this sim had MANUAL trim.. Some were able to be adjusted from within the cockpit and some were not.. Take the 109 for example, the alerion trim was adj from FIXED trim tabs and were adj on the ground before taking off.. Once in flight you could not adj them from within the cockpit.


Originally posted by studiox19:
DO-YOU-UNDERSTAND, Do you.. now?


Originally posted by studiox19:
or do you want me to write a page explaining this or list endless links to pages that will(you can s*d off, by the way) YES! But not for us, as much for your own sake!

Codex1971
06-11-2005, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by studiox19:
OK. Imagine i'm back in 44 and i'm just about to take of in my BF109/ FW 190 (any plane that has no auto trim). Before i get into the cockpit i do my preflight checks. Check airelons - ah, great, the trim tabs are still in their tested positions, set up to cancel out that horrid left roll torque from the engine enabling me to get level flight as soon as i'm in the air. . . . . . . .

That someone also doesn't realise that 109's & 190's DON'T have rudder and aileron trims, only elevator trim.

diomedes33
06-11-2005, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Codex1971:
That someone also doesn't realise that 109's & 190's DON'T have rudder and aileron trims, only elevator trim.

...actually studiox19 is right. 109's and 190's do have trim for rudder and ailerons. They are adjusted during flight testing to balance the aircraft. They can not be adjusted in flight.

If you look at the external models in game you can see them on the control surfaces.

Codex1971
06-11-2005, 10:02 PM
Thats what I meant...

studiox19
06-12-2005, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
I dont understand how guys use the word "horrid". I thought only girls could use that word.

. . . . . . . i am a girl.

studiox19
06-12-2005, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by diomedes33:
The 190s, 109s and spitfire aileron/rudder trims are all set to some cruising speed. If you are above or below this speed the plane will still roll. There is no way to trim the plane for all flight situations using a static trim.

I believe this is modeled but I haven't tested it extensively. I was doing some fuel consumption tests with the 190, set engine to 2300 rpm trimed elevator for level flight and the plane didn't roll noticeably.


thanks, you've just explained away my problem, unlike some other dickwads on this forum.

studiox19
06-12-2005, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
I don't think he was asking for a scientific explaination of WHY this effect is happening. So all you smart asses who want to show of your copy/paste skills and get awarded a gold star by posted useless albeit impressive looking information should STFU.

Ahhh, that feels better.

Btw, I had no problem following to original poster. Although these trim tabs were adjusted before take off in planes like the 109 (since one can't do it from the cockpit) as far as I know there's still going to be some roll unless your power setting is at X and your trim tabs are set to counter this torque exactly. However, anything above or below this setting will make you roll in one direction or the other. Is that right?

thanks for the support. You're dead right. I missed the importance of your second to last sentence.

studiox19
06-12-2005, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by studiox19:
In most planes you can adjust tabs on the control surfaces to counter inbalance.

So far, correct.


Some are automatic, some are manual.

What? Where do you get that one from? AUTOMATIC TRIM? Where? When?

some are adjusted from within the cockpit using hydraulic connectors or simple wires - AUTO - others are adjusted by moving actual tabs on the control surfaces - MANUAL.


109s and 190s were manual. These would have been adjusted in test flights.DO-YOU-UNDERSTAND, or do you want me to write a page explaining this or list endless links to pages that will(you can s*d off, by the way)

Please, let's see those sodding links!

And do you have any idea who you just fed that pile of horse droppings to?
Maybe some day, with a lot of work you can know half as much about flight as he does now.
Hint: he doesn't get his understanding about it from SIMS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

studiox19
06-12-2005, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by studiox19:
Hey, Oleg,

OK. Imagine i'm back in 1944 and i've just taken off in my P51. My plane naturally rolls to the left. Fine. I can put a bit of trim on the airelons(?) whilst in the cockpit and get my plane to assume level flight without any input from the stick. Great.

OK. Imagine i'm back in 44 and i'm just about to take of in my BF109/ FW 190 (any plane that has no auto trim). Before i get into the cockpit i do my preflight checks. Check airelons - ah, great, the trim tabs are still in their tested positions, set up to cancel out that horrid left roll torque from the engine enabling me to get level flight as soon as i'm in the air. . . . . . . .

Surely, to be accurate, that negative trim effect should only be present when the trim tabs have been blown away by enemy fire. . . .
I'm no expert but are you refering to the process where planes were checked out and the trim tabs were pre-set as best as possible. If thats what you're talking about then you're probably right.

My suggestion: Use the < and > keys to help in the German planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, thats what i meant. Thanks for understanding. Maybe I didn't explain it enough in simple ape language for some of these idiots.

studiox19
06-12-2005, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by studiox19:
Hey, Oleg,

OK. Imagine i'm back in 1944 and i've just taken off in my P51. My plane naturally rolls to the left. Fine. I can put a bit of trim on the airelons(?) whilst in the cockpit and get my plane to assume level flight without any input from the stick. Great.

OK. Imagine i'm back in 44 and i'm just about to take of in my BF109/ FW 190 (any plane that has no auto trim). Before i get into the cockpit i do my preflight checks. Check airelons - ah, great, the trim tabs are still in their tested positions, set up to cancel out that horrid left roll torque from the engine enabling me to get level flight as soon as i'm in the air. . . . . . . .

Surely, to be accurate, that negative trim effect should only be present when the trim tabs have been blown away by enemy fire. . . . Looks like sombody didnt realise that trim settings and thier effect is depended on how fast the plane is going. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

studiox19
06-12-2005, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by Codex1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by studiox19:
OK. Imagine i'm back in 44 and i'm just about to take of in my BF109/ FW 190 (any plane that has no auto trim). Before i get into the cockpit i do my preflight checks. Check airelons - ah, great, the trim tabs are still in their tested positions, set up to cancel out that horrid left roll torque from the engine enabling me to get level flight as soon as i'm in the air. . . . . . . .

That someone also doesn't realise that 109's & 190's DON'T have rudder and aileron trims, only elevator trim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Idiot . . . . . why don't you read up on these planes.

SeaFireLIV
06-12-2005, 04:09 AM
So now we`re reduced to calling most everyone dickwads and idiots.

Not a good representation for the ladies...

studiox19
06-12-2005, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
So now we`re reduced to calling most everyone dickwads and idiots.

Not a good representation for the ladies...
. . . . . am i allowed to defend myself? This is my first post. I feel bullied and kicked out.
Thanks for being nice to a rookie.

Codex1971
06-12-2005, 05:17 AM
Well I'm sorry Studio, I thought u were reffering to cockpit trims, no need to call people idiots but.

WWMaxGunz
06-12-2005, 06:12 AM
Despite what Rall says, I see someone come up and post that there's something WRONG with
the sim using completely screwed-up terminology and continuing to assert the same view
regardless of explanations and unable to take into account the confusion they caused with
the no good wording in the first place.

Trims non-adjustable from inside the cockpit is known as rigging. The term is as old as
flight and comes from boats and ships.

Manual trim? Well there are trim wheels in the cockpit, you turn them manually or by
switching a motor (maybe in some WWII bombers they had this) to adjust trim from inside.

I would still really love to see automatic trim in WWII. I'm sure it's possible! All
it would take is a motor on trim that activated when there was force on the stick. It
would be terrible and kill pilots which is why they don't have it that way even now,
but it's possible!
Or is this automatic trim some other definition and PLEASE let's see the links! You can
give us so many so how about just 2 or 3?

Spectre: Yes, the ailerons DO work by making torque. Example: I turn a bolt with a wrench
by applying torque to the bolt through the wrench handle. If the bolt does or does not turn
I am still applying torque. Think of the fuselage as the bolt, think of the wings as wrench
handles and think of the aileron effect as a hand pushing the wings.
If you can counter steady engine and prop torque by adjusting control surfaces then hey, they
are creating torque that counters the engine and prop torque.

Some people only show how poor the standards of education in the areas of science and very
likely math are. Lack of knowledge does nothing to slow them down, they take the approach
of Aristotle who was a complete git when it came to use of applied reason.

Codex1971
06-12-2005, 06:35 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

studiox19
06-12-2005, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Despite what Rall says, I see someone come up and post that there's something WRONG with
the sim using completely screwed-up terminology and continuing to assert the same view
regardless of explanations and unable to take into account the confusion they caused with
the no good wording in the first place.

Trims non-adjustable from inside the cockpit is known as rigging. The term is as old as
flight and comes from boats and ships.

Manual trim? Well there are trim wheels in the cockpit, you turn them manually or by
switching a motor (maybe in some WWII bombers they had this) to adjust trim from inside.

I would still really love to see automatic trim in WWII. I'm sure it's possible! All
it would take is a motor on trim that activated when there was force on the stick. It
would be terrible and kill pilots which is why they don't have it that way even now,
but it's possible!
Or is this automatic trim some other definition and PLEASE let's see the links! You can
give us so many so how about just 2 or 3?

Spectre: Yes, the ailerons DO work by making torque. Example: I turn a bolt with a wrench
by applying torque to the bolt through the wrench handle. If the bolt does or does not turn
I am still applying torque. Think of the fuselage as the bolt, think of the wings as wrench
handles and think of the aileron effect as a hand pushing the wings.
If you can counter steady engine and prop torque by adjusting control surfaces then hey, they
are creating torque that counters the engine and prop torque.

Some people only show how poor the standards of education in the areas of science and very
likely math are. Lack of knowledge does nothing to slow them down, they take the approach
of Aristotle who was a complete git when it came to use of applied reason.
. . . ignorance is'nt righted with arrogance . . . .

Chuck_Older
06-12-2005, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by studiox19:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
I dont understand how guys use the word "horrid". I thought only girls could use that word.

. . . . . . . i am a girl. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Chadburn
06-12-2005, 08:40 AM
studiox19..I understood from your initial post what you meant.

I agree with your general premise. I took the 109 to several speeds to see when the torque effect would stop (in other words, what speed is the pre-adjusted aileron trim set to to compensate for torque effect.) Cruise speed for the 109 G6 was about 420kph, so it makes sense that most pilots would trim for around that speed to relieve stick pressures during long flights. In 4.00, I get pretty level flight starting about 450kph IAS in the G-6. So I think the effect you're looking for is there, at least in this particular plane.

TAGERT.
06-12-2005, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by studiox19:
. . . . . am i allowed to defend myself? This is my first post. I feel bullied and kicked out.
Thanks for being nice to a rookie. God knows no fury like a woman scorned!
Step off putts.. You came in here all high and mighty thinking you were going to teach us something.. And in the end it turned out that your the one learning something.. So instead of taking it like a man, you decided to go the 5th grade school girl route and call us apes. Grow up son!

SeaFireLIV
06-12-2005, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by studiox19:
. . . . . am i allowed to defend myself? This is my first post. I feel bullied and kicked out.
Thanks for being nice to a rookie. God knows no fury like a woman scorned!
Step off putts.. You came in here all high and mighty thinking you were going to teach us something.. And in the end it turned out that your the one learning something.. So instead of taking it like a man, you decided to go the 5th grade school girl route and call us apes. Grow up son! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TAGERT, your abrasive attitude annoys me, but in this case I gotta totally agree with you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Tallyho1961
06-12-2005, 01:02 PM
I only really started to understand flight dynamics when I purchased a book on the subject, which also gave me a far greater appreciation of what went into this sim.

If you don't want to shell out on a book, try this (http://www.av8n.com/how/). It takes some effort to get the hang of it, but you won't regret it.

I had no clue how aircraft operated/behaved until I discovered IL2. Now I have a pretty good idea - in theory anyway. When you feel things happening in the sim the way they are supposed to in real life, you will smile as you realize what Oleg and co. have created for us.

Cragger
06-12-2005, 02:59 PM
I actually have to back Studiox19 on the simple grounds that most of the posts made where either derogatory, hostile, arrogant or beligerant. Instead of simply explaining why it functions as it does most of you decided you had the infinite wisdom to 'school' this person and to demean them to inflate your own self superiority complex.

The only people that actually saught to answer the question without attacking the original poster where Scen, domedes33, JG7_Rall, Icefire, Chadburn, and Tallyho.

The rest of you brought about nothing but attempting to provoke a conflict. Seafire I find your own statment of "TAGERT, your abrasive attitude annoys me, but in this case I gotta totally agree with you!" to be intriguing considering how 'abrasive' your first post to this subject was in itself.

TX-EcoDragon
06-12-2005, 03:18 PM
Hehe. . . welcome to the community. . looks like one big happy family!


:-D

NonWonderDog
06-12-2005, 05:17 PM
If my post was an attack, I'm simply flabberghasted.

I told him what was happening in very basic terms (and he later agreed that he didn't *want* a scientific explanation), I succictly said that control surfaces have less effect at low speed and thus trim must be adjusted as speed increases, and I asked for clarification on what he thought the problem was.


I can't imagine why he responded the way he did, but I didn't ***** him out for telling me to "sod off," unlike the way he tried to ridicule me for whatever he thought I was doing.

I simply won't accept that I did anything wrong. If someone can't accept a simple explanation, it's not my fault. Sorry.

Cragger
06-12-2005, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
Uhh... what?

The engine tries to spin the plane as well as the prop. Newton's third law, ya know?

So... what's your problem again?

If you cannot see how those statements are worded and phrased to be arrogant and beligerant then so be it seeing as your statement "I simply won't accept that I did anything wrong." Shows you have a closed mind and attempting to chance it is a futile effort.

All that was needed to be said was the core of your post

"The rudder and ailerons are used to apply a torque in the opposite direction to keep the plane from rolling. These control surfaces have less effect at low speed, and more effect at high speed. All the trim tabs do is change the center position of the control surfaces, performing almost exactly the same function as your hands on the stick. You have to change trim as you change speed."

But instead of being informative you decided to lessen it by adding the first mentioned statements to appear superior and to goad a responce.

And a responce is what you got, a responce to sod off. Which is what you where most likely hoping for so you could entice an argument.

AerialTarget
06-12-2005, 10:37 PM
And I suppose, Cragger, that you excuse Studiox's arrogance in his or her initial post? He made a very strong, very wrong statement about something the basic principle of which he does not know and apparently has not read up on (although I must say that at least he read something about the One Oh Nine, since he knows that the trim was not adjustable from the cockpit), and incorrectly labels the simulator's representation as unrealisitic (which, as I well know from my own, more thoroughly researched accusations, is bound to raise hackles).

And you are surprised at the hostility which follows? I noticed you didn't defend any of my accusations of unrealism, even though they were well researched and documented, and backed up by my experience and that of other real pilots. Is this because Studiox has stated that he or she is a woman? Indeed, with the irrationality displayed, I do not have a hard time believing him or her, but then most of the children here behave this way, posting strong statements about things they are too lazy to spend half an hour reading about, which anyone who has spent any time in ground school or in the air, or done serious reading about aviation, knows.

Cragger
06-13-2005, 01:02 AM
In the initial post there is simply a statement made and a hypothetical situation illustrated based on knowing part of the puzzle (Why the trim tabs are there and them being set on the ground.), but lacking the final piece as to trim only worked for a set airspeed/power settings. Based on what they did know it was a sound reasoning even if flawed.

Even in your rebutle you attempt to impose your own self superiority by stating that "He made a very strong, very wrong statement about something the basic principle of which he does not know and apparently has not read up on." Basic as what? walking? breathing? Sometimes people simply do not know things and I'd hardly call torque effects and aerodynamic principles of any form 'basic'.

Everyone makes assumptions based on their current knowledge that even though they may not be correct as logical for what they have to base their judgement on. Just like you make an assumption that everyone should know every facet of aerodynamics.

Why should I defend your statement on other topics in this thread? That would hardly be relevant to the subject. And if their well documented and researched surely they can stand on their own merit without the insignificance of my input.

As to why I did this, its quite simple. It has nothing to do with studiox's supposed sex, that I could really care less of. More, its sometimes fun to play devil's advocate. Place yourself in anothers situation and see the results play out http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

-HH-Quazi
06-13-2005, 01:57 AM
I just read the whole thread up to this point. From what I read, alot of you m8's took the new m8 the wrong way. Although the initial post was abit confusing to me, Cragger nailed as what is was "a statement made and a hypothetical situation illustrated based on knowing part of the puzzle (Why the trim tabs are there and them being set on the ground.), but lacking the final piece as to trim only worked for a set airspeed/power settings."

You guys are a hard bunch, and you know this. I've seen you run off more new m8's than I care to remember with your harsh responses to easily understood questions or statements. The only new posters that don't seem to have any issues here are those that come in and immediately start stroking egos. You should take more care in knowing who a poster is before ground pounding them right off the bat. PF is bringing allot of new m8's here. And all to often, they are run off because of responses like this, especially if they are new to forums in general. It was good to see that at least she had the ****** to express what she thought about your responses, which makes me think she would fit right in here with you guys.

Next time, before the testorone starts flowing and the bunch of you starts flexing your intellectual muscles, just read what a new m8 has to say, or ask. Although her initial post was a bit confusing, it sure didn't deserve the response it got from the majority. Now, go ahead and beat me up for saying so.

NonWonderDog
06-13-2005, 02:32 AM
"Appear superior"?
"Goad a response"?

This is why I hate internet forums; this forum in particular. Everyone seems to be always on the lookout to ascribe ulterior motives to anything that is posted, just so they get the chance to spit flames. (Ooops, now I'm doing it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

I fail to see how "Newton's third law, ya know?" is inflammatory in any way whatsoever. Informal, maybe, but not insulting. The other statements were simply expressing confusion. With all respect, it's hard to find the main point in the first post.

I'll admit that "what's your problem" should have read "what's the problem," if only for semantic reasons. While technically more correct (the original poster did, after all, have a problem/concern/gripe with the FM that wasn't shared by the majority on this forum), "What's your problem" is often used as a bit of insulting slang, and that wasn't my intent.

Is it *so* hard to believe that I meant no offense whatsoever?


I know someone will interpret this post in some strange way to make me look like an elitist *******, but I don't care. I'm done justifying myself.