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View Full Version : Don't Assume S16 and Desmond are Related



Mikatsuki95
08-19-2011, 01:15 PM
Okay some people seem way too positive that these two are related. Mainly because of that scene in AC2 when Lucy has Desmond get in the Animus and is searching for relevant memory data. I'll start there. (fair warning, this will be lengthy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH9yH5koKjA (around 2:40)

If they used the word "related" I'd be more inclined to believe this. But they used "relevant". Because of this choice of words a number of factors can be taken into account here regarding relevance. Time in history. Locations. Key events. People involved. Whereas if it was "related" the connection would simply be common ancestry. But what is the relevance then you might ask? My guess is time in history and location, which I'll explain next.

A counter argument could be how since the glyphs were found in Italy he must have lived as Ezio to place them there. But you don't need to have Ezio the assassin as an ancestor to have an ancestor in the 1500's Italy. It's quite possible S16 had an ancestor in Italy around the same time Ezio was alive. So when Lucy was searching for a relevant memory, she may have been trying to find when Desmond had an ancestor around the same time and place as S16's.

Next, when you're in the hideout trying out your new learned abilities from Ezio, Lucy mentions how Vidic was obsessed with Italy. If Ezio was 16's ancestor don't you think they would have found the vault? The assassins did in a short amount of time, and they had 16 inside the Animus for days at a time.
There's two reasons how I know Vidic didn't find it. Lucy said "I think he knew about the vault".
She thought, she didn't know. They were monitoring 16 together like they did Desmond so if they did find it, she would've seen it. So obviously they didn't find it together while working on 16. That and if they did, Lucy would have had it recorded like she did his other Animus sessions that she mentioned.

Lastly we have nothing clearly telling us who 16's related to. Sometimes we're given locations, like Lucy said in the Hideout he had some in ancient Africa and the Middle East. Sometimes we're given time periods in The Truth when 16 mentions he's had the Battle of Gettysburg. But even if we had time and location together, we still lack a name. We don't know any specific individual he was related to. No clear evidence indicating a specific ancestor he had.

Also, we don't fully understand (or are even aware of) how the Animus works. I didn't know there was a black room. I didn't know you could relive memories of people you weren't related to (Project Legacy), and I don't know why you can't use the Animus too long without suffering the Bleeding Effect. So who knows how 16 somehow got himself inside the Memory Core, how it even makes the Animus run faster, or how exactly he got those glyphs in there. So we shouldn't assume again Ezio is the common ancestor (if there's a common one at all) just because of where (or rather when) the glyphs were found.

I thought they were related at first too. But now I don't because I don't see anything compelling enough to suggest 16 and Desmond are related. Nor do I see any evidence. Hopefully when its revealed who 16 is, the question to whatever connection he has to Desmond will be answered as well.

But for those who disagree, go ahead and disagree. But if you want to try and prove me wrong, show me some legit evidence that clearly proves they are related. Some facts that show without a doubt they are related. And try and explain it.

Rakudaton
08-19-2011, 01:24 PM
You have some good points, though there is one that I take issue with:


If Ezio was 16's ancestor don't you think they would have found the vault?

You're using this as evidence for Desmond and 16 not being related -- but it isn't. It's possible for Desmond and 16 to be related without Ezio being 16's ancestor. Like so:

>> A descendant of Ezio's marries person X (who is not a descendant of Ezio) and has a son: Desmond.
>> A sibling of person X marries and has a son: Subject 16.

In this case Dessie and 16 would be cousins, but 16 would not be a descendant of Ezio, thus rendering this part of your argument invalid.

Other than that, your points are good. Personally I think they almost certainly ARE related; but then again, I was certain that Ezio was a descendant of Altair, which turned out to be wrong.

LightRey
08-19-2011, 01:27 PM
You make a strong case. I'm still inclined to believe that they are related, but you've shown me enough evidence to refrain from assuming that to be the case.

Mikatsuki95
08-19-2011, 01:29 PM
Okay good eye there, I'll clear that part up. We know Desmond has Altair and and Ezio and they were parents before them as ancestors. I'm not using Ezio as proof that they aren't related. Cuz again, unlike Desmond we don't have any evidence telling us who even 'one' of 16's ancestors are. Never mind Ezio we don't know who any of his ancestors are. So why assume they are related when we can't prove a single ancestor 16 has. See my point?

I would like to believe they are related cuz that would leave me with less questions, but I can't find evidence to suggest they are. If we could learn for sure about who 16 had as ancestors then we'd have more answers

LightRey
08-19-2011, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Mikatsuki95:
Okay good eye there, I'll clear that part up. We know Desmond has Altair and and Ezio and they were parents before them as ancestors. I'm not using Ezio as proof that they aren't related. Cuz again, unlike Desmond we don't have any evidence telling us who even 'one' of 16's ancestors are. Never mind Ezio we don't know who any of his ancestors are. So why assume they are related when we can't prove a single ancestor 16 has. See my point?

I would like to believe they are related cuz that would leave me with less questions, but I can't find evidence to suggest they are. If we could learn for sure about who 16 had as ancestors then we'd have more answers
Well, there is evidence, just nothing conclusive.

Mikatsuki95
08-19-2011, 01:37 PM
Alright you got me there, but yeah nothing that's completely clear showing "this is S16's ancestor". Hints yeah, but nothing that's like 100% clear. I wish there was, but unlike Desmond we can't prove who any of 16's ancestors are.

Jexx21
08-19-2011, 01:51 PM
I know one thing, Altiar isn't Subject 16's ancestor. Otherwise they would of used him to get the memory they needed from Desmond.

It could be possible that Desmond is where the bloodline from Ezio and Altiar meet up though.

LightRey
08-19-2011, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Jexx21:
I know one thing, Altiar isn't Subject 16's ancestor. Otherwise they would of used him to get the memory they needed from Desmond.

It could be possible that Desmond is where the bloodline from Ezio and Altiar meet up though.
Well I'm not so sure of that. Maybe S16 died before they wanted to use him to get to Alta´r's memories.

TexasCreed
08-19-2011, 02:07 PM
Excellent points. It could be that the Animus was searching for a time period in Italy relevant between the two instead of a common ancestor. There just is no proof for either. Though I will say they wouldn't have be directly related at all, if you went back a thousand years ago our ancestors could have been brother and sister or something but as time passed bloodlines married into different bloodlines and split until we just aren't even close to related anymore, you know? Bush is Obama's cousin 19 times removed, so they aren't related but about a thousand years ago or more their ancestors were cousins whether they knew it or not. Crazy huh? Can't wait until November 15th!

Altair661
08-19-2011, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Mikatsuki95: So we shouldn't assume again Ezio is the common ancestor (if there's a common one at all) just because of where (or rather when) the glyphs were found.

You have very valid point, I think they are related because their is evidence as LightRey said, just not conclusive. But have just one problem with the line above. They have to be connected in some way. There's no way this is all coincidence between Desmond and 16. And if they arent connected in any way, how does 16 even know about Desmond/subject 17. It seems there is some kind of "something" between the two. It doesnt seem like they are complete strangers to each other. Even if what you say is true about them not being related. Just sayin..

Also, does anyone know if 16 is an Assassin? I mean we can kinda assume so. But do they ever actually say he's an assassin? Or him himself?

Mikatsuki95
08-19-2011, 02:33 PM
Excellent question. Maybe 16 had some forehand knowledge about Desmond prior to his capture. Or maybe the templars already had plans to kidnap Desmond and 16 learned about them from hacking into Abstergo's mainframe. I can't say for sure. There has to be a connection yes but I don't think its necessarily blood.

Is he an assassin? In The Truth when he mentions Hitler in the bunker he talks about "we watchcd the exit from above, he never saw 'us' coming." And then following that "find 'our' mark." Claiming ownership and connection to the assassins maybe? And in the final code wheel puzzle it had the words "nothing is true, everything is permitted." Next in Brotherhood in the final chess move once you place the king off the board you see the assassin insignia. Lastly one you access that executable file, those red blocks you climb? well at one point a set of them forms the assassin symbol.

So with those facts presented is he an assassin? I would like to think so but I'd rather hear it from the man himself when we learn his identity in revelations

LightRey
08-19-2011, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Mikatsuki95:
Excellent question. Maybe 16 had some forehand knowledge about Desmond prior to his capture. Or maybe the templars already had plans to kidnap Desmond and 16 learned about them from hacking into Abstergo's mainframe. I can't say for sure. There has to be a connection yes but I don't think its necessarily blood.

Is he an assassin? In The Truth when he mentions Hitler in the bunker he talks about "we watchcd the exit from above, he never saw 'us' coming." And then following that "find 'our' mark." Claiming ownership and connection to the assassins maybe? And in the final code wheel puzzle it had the words "nothing is true, everything is permitted." Next in Brotherhood in the final chess move once you place the king off the board you see the assassin insignia. Lastly one you access that executable file, those red blocks you climb? well at one point a set of them forms the assassin symbol.

So with those facts presented is he an assassin? I would like to think so but I'd rather hear it from the man himself when we learn his identity in revelations
Well it could just be the bleeding effect making him think he's an Assassin, while he's actually just a descendant of one.

itsamea-mario
08-19-2011, 04:13 PM
I think the glyphs are the clincher for me.
For all we know the memories of one person don't effect those of another, as far as the animus is concerned at least. So I doubt 16 could have placed those glyphs with a different ancestor.
Also all those glyphs would have to be in places ezio went or atleast saw.
If 16 wasn't descended from ezio, then that's hell of an assumption to make that ezio would go to the same places as his ancestor.

Also if 16 was a descendant of ezio then why would vidic bother with him if he was trying to find the vault?

Mikatsuki95
08-19-2011, 04:28 PM
one of the many gaps in the AC storyline. Frankly, we've waited and speculated long enough. The story has too many questions as it is. So Revelations needs to clear up a great deal of questions for things to finally make sense.

Also, I have no idea what's so special about 16. None. To the the point where after four years into the franchise, they still refused to reveal anything enlightening about him. Now what I'm about to say is me personally, whatever the answer is to his identity is damn well better be worth four years of waiting.

itsamea-mario
08-19-2011, 04:56 PM
There's nothing much special about, it's our speculation and curiosity that gave him his current status.
He's a bit like the ratman from portal.

Personally I think he is at-least somewhat related to Desmond.

masterfenix2009
08-19-2011, 05:32 PM
I will say what I have always said about this subject. Woulndn't Lucy tell Desmond they are related?
Lucy: Oh,hey Desmond,I forgot to tell you... your related to S16
Desmond: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

itsamea-mario
08-19-2011, 05:36 PM
They may not be closely related, but I believe they atleast share ezio as an ancestor.

Mikatsuki95
08-19-2011, 05:50 PM
I think the reason they haven't (and probably won't) reveal anything about the gameplay of Desmond is because it might reveal something regarding 16. We know they'll be more blood writing thanks to the teaser trailer. A great deal more mind you compared to his room in Abstergo.

Personally that's where most of my interest lie, Desmond's past and 16. If I had to choose between knowing what happens to Ezio and Altair, or Desmond and 16, I'll pick the latter every time

LightRey
08-19-2011, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by assassino151:
I will say what I have always said about this subject. Woulndn't Lucy tell Desmond they are related?
Lucy: Oh,hey Desmond,I forgot to tell you... your related to S16
Desmond: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
She only would if they were closely related (like cousins or something). On top of that she'd actually have to know whether they are related.

Elbrujo1978
08-19-2011, 07:28 PM
Certainly Adam and / or Eve are the ancestors of S16, so we know one or two ancestors of S16, the trouble is we do not know whether Adam or Eve are Desmond's ancestors (most likely yes). What makes me believe that Desmond and S16 are related is that the scene at the birth of Ezio is in the memory core that belonged to S16, indicating that Ezio is ancestor of S16 which is also the ancestor of Desmond. All the above you could say that is circumstantial but what can not be denied is that there is a strong connection between S16 and Desmond, whether or not blood, as it has been showing what he learned for a purpose yet unknown.

Finally far as we know to see the memories of X in the Animus, X has to be your ancestor, otherwise they would not need special people like S16 and Desmond.

LightRey
08-19-2011, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Elbrujo1978:
Certainly Adam and / or Eve are the ancestors of S16, so we know one or two ancestors of S16, the trouble is we do not know whether Adam or Eve are Desmond's ancestors (most likely yes). What makes me believe that Desmond and S16 are related is that the scene at the birth of Ezio is in the memory core that belonged to S16, indicating that Ezio is ancestor of S16 which is also the ancestor of Desmond. All the above you could say that is circumstantial but what can not be denied is that there is a strong connection between S16 and Desmond, whether or not blood, as it has been showing what he learned for a purpose yet unknown.

Finally far as we know to see the memories of X in the Animus, X has to be your ancestor, otherwise they would not need special people like S16 and Desmond.
That last bit is not entirely true. It seems recorded memories can be replayed (at the very least in a limited way) by people that aren't related to the specific ancestor, as is made clear with the MP part of ACB.

Elbrujo1978
08-19-2011, 07:57 PM
Very true, in any case I meant to relive memories through the Animus. Remember the memories can be seen in several forms such as recordings, artifacts such as apples or the shroud and also through the bleeding effect.

Calvarok
08-19-2011, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Elbrujo1978:
Very true, in any case I meant to relive memories through the Animus. Remember the memories can be seen in several forms such as recordings, artifacts such as apples or the shroud and also through the bleeding effect.

The bleeding effect is basically the same process as the animus. the animus is awaking a process that people have dormant in their brains, which the first civ had awakened: the ability to see your ancestor's memories. That's why the bleeding effect exists: the brain is remembering how to do it without the animus.

LightRey
08-19-2011, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Elbrujo1978:
Very true, in any case I meant to relive memories through the Animus. Remember the memories can be seen in several forms such as recordings, artifacts such as apples or the shroud and also through the bleeding effect.
Yeah, but the MP is actually done in the various Animuses you see at the beginning of ACII, so those memories are viewed through the animus as well.