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Poodle_of_Doom
10-14-2011, 02:43 PM
As I'm sure you all have seemed to notice, Catholocism, and Christianity as a whole, have been singled out as a "sort-of" illusion driving the Templars need for power. What I mean to say is, they use this as a means of control, of power, of organization, of recruiting, and collection of resources (money or otherwise). Do you think at some point, in the future games, that the Templars will infiltrate other religions as well? At that, I'd like to ask a second question. This is purley hypothetical, but if they did infiltrate other religions, how do you think they'd use them?

Personally, I think if they used something like Buddhism, the Templars would be more aggressive, and fight harder, because they wouldn't fear death, and wouldn't be so reluctant to take a life away (not that they're to terribly reluctant now).

What do you all think?

Assassin_M
10-14-2011, 03:05 PM
The Templars are actually USING i.e taking advantage of religion, its not driving them, Rodrigo became Pope because it gave him power, so if they became Buddhists they`d still be afraid of death, because they know that there is no after life.

Jexx21
10-14-2011, 03:08 PM
Technically the PoE's and TWCB don't prove that there isn't a 'God'. Just that there was was a more powerful civilization that we portrayed as gods initially.

Assassin_M
10-14-2011, 03:10 PM
The discussion of God`s existence is not the subject of his thread..

blazefp
10-14-2011, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
The Templars are actually USING i.e taking advantage of religion, its not driving them, Rodrigo became Pope because it gave him power, so if they became Buddhists they`d still be afraid of death, because they know that there is no after life.

this ^

Keighvin
10-14-2011, 03:24 PM
Weren't about half the Templars in the first game Arabs, and so very unlikely to claim to be Christian? And with the Ezio games focusing on Italy, I think you would be hard pressed to find a non Christian in a position of power or influence in Italy at that time.

Assassin_M
10-14-2011, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Keighvin:
Weren't about half the Templars in the first game Arabs, and so very unlikely to claim to be Christian? And with the Ezio games focusing on Italy, I think you would be hard pressed to find a non Christian in a position of power or influence in Italy at that time.
All of the Templars do not believe in God no matter what their ethnicity was, and Rodrigo hid his Atheism so he can become Pope, I dont think he went and told them " meh I never believed in god, but can I be Pope ?"

SteelCity999
10-14-2011, 03:31 PM
There were others users of the POEs that were of different religions. Like was mentioned, they are stating the Templars infiltrated Christianity to gain their power because that was the pulpit of power at that time. Geographically there were no other options. I suppose as the series moves along they will address this because of the Reformation in Europe....and I'm sure we will get a taste of this in Constantinople which was very culturally diverse. The Ottomans routinely had Christian fighters in their armies as well. Not to mention that the Assassin order is historically Muslim(I may be wrong) and Ezio has not been identified as such - so they have transcended those lines already with the Assassins. I think for both orders the ideals and people don't operate along religous lines but they just happen to seem that way because it(religion) was such an important facet of life back then.

Jexx21
10-14-2011, 03:47 PM
Ezio is actually a Christian, it was confirmed in AC: Brotherhood the Novel.

Animuses
10-14-2011, 03:51 PM
No he isn't... :P

He clearly stated his church is not of God.
The novel is wrong. Why would he believe in Christianity when he knows about TWCB?

Serrachio
10-14-2011, 03:53 PM
While being an atheist, it is an assumption to presume that he isn't affected slightly by his predominantly Christian surroundings.

LightRey
10-14-2011, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Animuses:
No he isn't... :P

He clearly stated his church is not of God.
The novel is wrong. Why would he believe in Christianity when he knows about TWCB?
That's referring to his order, not his religious beliefs.

Assassin_M
10-14-2011, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Animuses:
No he isn't... :P

He clearly stated his church is not of God.
The novel is wrong. Why would he believe in Christianity when he knows about TWCB?
That's referring to his order, not his religious beliefs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
^This

Jexx21
10-14-2011, 03:56 PM
Uhh.. Even if TWCB exist, there can still be a God. >.>

And the novel is canon, and it is never contradicted in the games. So this Ezio is a Christian.

EDIT: Well technically he's probably not Christian as we know it. As he murders a lot.

LightRey
10-14-2011, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Animuses:
No he isn't... :P

He clearly stated his church is not of God.
The novel is wrong. Why would he believe in Christianity when he knows about TWCB?
Also, All he knows about TWCB is that they came before and that they were not gods.

Animuses
10-14-2011, 03:58 PM
TWCB existing proves many things in the Bible to be false.

Assassin_M
10-14-2011, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Jexx21:
Uhh.. Even if TWCB exist, there can still be a God. >.>

And the novel is canon, and it is never contradicted in the games. So this Ezio is a Christian.

EDIT: Well technically he's probably not Christian as we know it. As he murders a lot.
Its a possibility, God creates those who came before, then they create us, then God is angry with their constant fighting and decides to burn them.. yea possible

CRUDFACE
10-14-2011, 04:03 PM
Weren't TWCB, so far have been based on Roman gods?

But AC does basically tell us that Jesus didn't have healing powers...and that Joan had that sword...


Originally posted by Jexx21:
Uhh.. Even if TWCB exist, there can still be a God. >.>

And the novel is canon, and it is never contradicted in the games. So this Ezio is a Christian.

EDIT: Well technically he's probably not Christian as we know it. As he murders a lot.

The most devout in the old days murdered. Though the church was very corrupt I don't think they'd care about killing you if you weren't a Christian. I'm pretty sure that the real Templars were both bloodthirsty and devout.

Assassin_M
10-14-2011, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
Weren't TWCB, so far have been based on Roman gods?

But AC does basically tell us that Jesus didn't have healing powers...and that Joan had that sword...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jexx21:
Uhh.. Even if TWCB exist, there can still be a God. >.>

And the novel is canon, and it is never contradicted in the games. So this Ezio is a Christian.

EDIT: Well technically he's probably not Christian as we know it. As he murders a lot.

The most devout in the old days murdered. Though the church was very corrupt I don't think they'd care about killing you if you weren't a Christian. I'm pretty sure that the real Templars were both bloodthirsty and devout. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yea the equivalent of the Muslim Jihadist, except the templars werent considered a terrorist organization..

LightRey
10-14-2011, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Animuses:
TWCB existing proves many things in the Bible to be false.
Not really. It only proves that there were people before there were humans.

itsamea-mario
10-14-2011, 04:06 PM
F off!
No way is ezio a christian not by now, not with all he knows.
He may have some kind of spiritual belief, but he's not a christian.

Assassin_M
10-14-2011, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
F off!
No way is ezio a christian not by now, not with all he knows.
He may have some kind of spiritual belief, but he's not a christian.
That "F off" was not Necessary.

itsamea-mario
10-14-2011, 04:13 PM
Fudge, fiddlesticks, flip, fandango...

He knows about TWCB technology, he read the codex, entered the vaults.
If he still believes in Jesus after that then he's an idiot.

Jexx21
10-14-2011, 04:14 PM
The claims of God not existing if there were TWCB is like the claims of God not existing if there are aliens out there.

Ezio is a Christian by current canon standards. Christ could of been God in human form, the game didn't really directly deny that. In fact, I think the game only said that his disciples tried to use the shroud to bring Jesus back to life. In any case, we don't know how TWCB actually gained their technology.

Ubisoft leaves it with holes on purpose, so that people can believe what they want to believe on this aspect.

itsamea-mario
10-14-2011, 04:18 PM
I'm fairly sure Altair mentions something about Jesus.
He's certainly not a catholic.

LightRey
10-14-2011, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
I'm fairly sure Altair mentions something about Jesus.
He's certainly not a catholic.
Altaïr actually questions whether he didn't exist, rather than that he did.

itsamea-mario
10-14-2011, 04:24 PM
His existence doesn't matter, it's the nature of his existence.

I personally believe he did exist, but not as the son of god.

CRUDFACE
10-14-2011, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Animuses:
TWCB existing proves many things in the Bible to be false.
Not really. It only proves that there were people before there were humans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Christ has no healing powers
The flood was akin to the solar thing that wiped out the planet
Adam and eve were made by other people, not god.
Moses used the Staff, not god's power

now the message, yeah, you can believe in that. But all the "customizing" Ac series does kind of breaks down the people and events.

@itsamea-mario: yeah, altair said there was a pattern with people like Jesus, the savior type with a divine birth and such.

So I think Altair stopped and Ezio never seemed religous or even tried to. I think he's agnostic.

@Jexx21: why do you think he's Christian anyways? The game never talks about it. you get that from the books again?

LightRey
10-14-2011, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Animuses:
TWCB existing proves many things in the Bible to be false.
Not really. It only proves that there were people before there were humans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Christ has no healing powers
The flood was akin to the solar thing that wiped out the planet
Adam and eve were made by other people, not god.
Moses used the Staff, not god's power

now the message, yeah, you can believe in that. But all the "customizing" Ac series does kind of breaks down the people and events.

@itsamea-mario: yeah, altair said there was a pattern with people like Jesus, the savior type with a divine birth and such.

So I think Altair stopped and Ezio never seemed religous or even tried to. I think he's agnostic.

@Jexx21: why do you think he's Christian anyways? The game never talks about it. you get that from the books again? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, there are references found in the games that suggest that "the flood" was another event in the AC history than the solar flare thing.

dxsxhxcx
10-14-2011, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Jexx21:
The claims of God not existing if there were TWCB is like the claims of God not existing if there are aliens out there.

Ezio is a Christian by current canon standards. Christ could of been God in human form, the game didn't really directly deny that. In fact, I think the game only said that his disciples tried to use the shroud to bring Jesus back to life. In any case, we don't know how TWCB actually gained their technology.

Ubisoft leaves it with holes on purpose, so that people can believe what they want to believe on this aspect.

Jesus miracles' were attributed to the Shroud in the game..

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Jesus_Christ

OFF-TOPIC:

taken from the Trivia section in the article above:

In recent developments, official Vatican researchers had uncovered evidence that the Shroud of Turin had been kept and venerated by the Templars since the 1204 sack of Constantinople.

If this is true, do you think we'll be able to get the Shroud as Altair (or even Ezio), or at least see it being mentioned during one of Altair/Ezio's memories?!

LightRey
10-14-2011, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by dxsxhxcx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jexx21:
The claims of God not existing if there were TWCB is like the claims of God not existing if there are aliens out there.

Ezio is a Christian by current canon standards. Christ could of been God in human form, the game didn't really directly deny that. In fact, I think the game only said that his disciples tried to use the shroud to bring Jesus back to life. In any case, we don't know how TWCB actually gained their technology.

Ubisoft leaves it with holes on purpose, so that people can believe what they want to believe on this aspect.

Jesus miracles' were attributed to the Shroud in the game..

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Jesus_Christ

OFF-TOPIC:

taken from the Trivia section in the article above:

In recent developments, official Vatican researchers had uncovered evidence that the Shroud of Turin had been kept and venerated by the Templars since the 1204 sack of Constantinople.

If this is true, do you think we'll be able to get the Shroud as Altair (or even Ezio), or at least see it being mentioned during one of Altair/Ezio's memories?! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That shroud was a forgery created around the time of Brutus' death.

Jexx21
10-14-2011, 04:34 PM
Err.. the books ARE canon, regardless of whether you consider them not to be. The book Brotherhood has Ezio as a Christian.

CRUDFACE
10-14-2011, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Jexx21:
Err.. the books ARE canon, regardless of whether you consider them not to be. The book Brotherhood has Ezio as a Christian.

How many times...the books are cannon in pieces. Not everything in them is true.

Jexx21
10-14-2011, 04:42 PM
Lol, I know that. But everything in the books that the games don't directly contradict is true. Thus Ezio is a Christian.

CRUDFACE
10-14-2011, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Jexx21:
Lol, I know that. But everything in the books that the games don't directly contradict is true. Thus Ezio is a Christian.

Lol, I'll believe it when I see it!

Poodle_of_Doom
10-14-2011, 04:44 PM
And, I'm officially declaring the thread hijacked. Let's get back to the original questions please guys.

Do you think at some point, in the future games, that the Templars will infiltrate other religions as well? At that, I'd like to ask a second question. This is purley hypothetical, but if they did infiltrate other religions, how do you think they'd use them?

itsamea-mario
10-14-2011, 04:46 PM
The way he speaks to Rodrigo under the vault sounds like he's coming from an outside perspective.

I know he was a Christian, but I doubt he still is by revelations.

CRUDFACE
10-14-2011, 04:51 PM
@Lightrey: even without the flood, seems pretty messed up by now.

@Poodle: Hmm, well, Hitler abused the swastika symbol during the holocaust.

I think they were trying to curropt the pagan faith as well.

But I think Templars resurged or really came around during Roman times and when Christ came about



Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
The way he speaks to Rodrigo under the vault sounds like he's coming from an outside perspective.

I know he was a Christian, but I doubt he still is by revelations.

yeah, he says YOUR faith to Rodrigo, as if it isn't his.

LightRey
10-14-2011, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
And, I'm officially declaring the thread hijacked. Let's get back to the original questions please guys.

Do you think at some point, in the future games, that the Templars will infiltrate other religions as well? At that, I'd like to ask a second question. This is purley hypothetical, but if they did infiltrate other religions, how do you think they'd use them?
I wouldn't be surprised if they already did so for most religions.

Poodle_of_Doom
10-14-2011, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jexx21:
Lol, I know that. But everything in the books that the games don't directly contradict is true. Thus Ezio is a Christian.

Lol, I'll believe it when I see it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Requiescate en pace" anyone? It's part of the Eternal Rest Prayer (http://catholicism.about.com/od/prayers/qt/Eternal_Rest.htm), one that is used regularly in Catholicism. I imagine he's drawn from either his upbringing, or current beliefs. Besides, you should win an argument with fact, not a contradicting personal belief. You asked for proof, a book had been referenced. And your only response is essentially "Nuh uh." Come back with something more concrete to the contrary.

That said, I look at how Christianity as a whole has an influence on the game. I wonder how other religions would affect it.

CRUDFACE
10-14-2011, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jexx21:
Lol, I know that. But everything in the books that the games don't directly contradict is true. Thus Ezio is a Christian.

Lol, I'll believe it when I see it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Requiescate en pace" anyone? It's part of the Eternal Rest Prayer (http://catholicism.about.com/od/prayers/qt/Eternal_Rest.htm), one that is used regularly in Catholicism. I imagine he's drawn from either his upbringing, or current beliefs. Besides, you should win an argument with fact, not a contradicting personal belief. You asked for proof, a book had been referenced. And your only response is essentially "Nuh uh." Come back with something more concrete to the contrary.

That said, I look at how Christianity as a whole has an influence on the game. I wonder how other religions would affect it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was just joking...

While that is a good reason, the game only shows us that Ezio got it from Mario and never even shows that he believes in any of it. He says that Rodrigo's central text is his, not Ezio's. I believe Ezio only says that jsut in case there really is a soul or a place for that

dxsxhxcx
10-14-2011, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
And, I'm officially declaring the thread hijacked. Let's get back to the original questions please guys.

Do you think at some point, in the future games, that the Templars will infiltrate other religions as well? At that, I'd like to ask a second question. This is purley hypothetical, but if they did infiltrate other religions, how do you think they'd use them?

I believe they already are infiltrated in other religions, religion means control, it's probably one of the best ways to control people (if you don't have a PoE.. xD)...

Chamboozer
10-14-2011, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
But AC does basically tell us that Jesus didn't have healing powers...

Which oddly enough fits perfectly with the Islamic belief that Jesus did (with the permission of God) merely make it appear that he had healing powers. Also the idea of his crucifiction not being real, and only an image. Sounds a lot like the Apple of Eden.

Furthermore I think it makes perfect sense for Ezio to be a Christian.

LightRey
10-14-2011, 05:07 PM
I think Ezio's agnostic, possibly an agnostic theist. I think he believes that there's more to the religious stories than meets the eye, but that there could very well still be a (Christian) god.

CRUDFACE
10-14-2011, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
I think Ezio's agnostic, possibly an agnostic theist. I think he believes that there's more to the religious stories than meets the eye, but that there could very well still be a (Christian) god.

Yeah, this more than others

iNt0xiCaT3dSainT
10-14-2011, 06:34 PM
AC is based on various faiths and religions... it even says it when u start the game... For example, my religion which is Sikhism in our "holy book" it says do not kill the innocent, but protect them. The team uses more then one religion. Also did Ubi state he's an atheist? And don't you think Ezio would be a Roman-Catholic?

Calvarok
10-14-2011, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Chamboozer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
But AC does basically tell us that Jesus didn't have healing powers...

Which oddly enough fits perfectly with the Islamic belief that Jesus did (with the permission of God) merely make it appear that he had healing powers. Also the idea of his crucifiction not being real, and only an image. Sounds a lot like the Apple of Eden.

Furthermore I think it makes perfect sense for Ezio to be a Christian. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ezio does not believe in God. He saw that the Vault was empty and heard Minerva speak about how he was made by a mortal race.

He has proof, dudes.

He used to when he was younger, yes.

EDIT: Also, he did many things that are considered sins by the religions people say he's from, and never went to confession and prayed for forgiveness. This confirms that he doesn't actually believe. He says Rest in Peace literally. He doesn't know if there is an afterlife, and he's not worried about it. Either way, the target is going to sleep forever.

CRUDFACE
10-14-2011, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Calvarok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chamboozer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
But AC does basically tell us that Jesus didn't have healing powers...

Which oddly enough fits perfectly with the Islamic belief that Jesus did (with the permission of God) merely make it appear that he had healing powers. Also the idea of his crucifiction not being real, and only an image. Sounds a lot like the Apple of Eden.

Furthermore I think it makes perfect sense for Ezio to be a Christian. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ezio does not believe in God. He saw that the Vault was empty and heard Minerva speak about how he was made by a mortal race.

He has proof, dudes.

He used to when he was younger, yes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IDK man it's said in the book by Jexx21 (Did I get your name right?) but the game just keeps pointing away from that. Oh well, lol, maybe we can ask Esco if he can ask the developers during another interview or something

LightRey
10-14-2011, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Calvarok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chamboozer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
But AC does basically tell us that Jesus didn't have healing powers...

Which oddly enough fits perfectly with the Islamic belief that Jesus did (with the permission of God) merely make it appear that he had healing powers. Also the idea of his crucifiction not being real, and only an image. Sounds a lot like the Apple of Eden.

Furthermore I think it makes perfect sense for Ezio to be a Christian. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ezio does not believe in God. He saw that the Vault was empty and heard Minerva speak about how he was made by a mortal race.

He has proof, dudes.

He used to when he was younger, yes.

EDIT: Also, he did many things that are considered sins by the religions people say he's from, and never went to confession and prayed for forgiveness. This confirms that he doesn't actually believe. He says Rest in Peace literally. He doesn't know if there is an afterlife, and he's not worried about it. Either way, the target is going to sleep forever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He doesn't have proof. Rodrigo assumed that "god" was under The Vatican. There was no other reason for Ezio to assume that whatever was there had anything to do with god.

Jexx21
10-14-2011, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
IDK man it's said in the book by Jexx21 (Did I get your name right?) but the game just keeps pointing away from that. Oh well, lol, maybe we can ask Esco if he can ask the developers during another interview or something

I prefer Jexx actually. 21 is my favorite number, and I think I used it because Jexx was already taken. There's one other person out there that uses that name (at least on Twitter) and she's a girl.

CRUDFACE
10-14-2011, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Jexx21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
IDK man it's said in the book by Jexx21 (Did I get your name right?) but the game just keeps pointing away from that. Oh well, lol, maybe we can ask Esco if he can ask the developers during another interview or something

I prefer Jexx actually. 21 is my favorite number, and I think I used it because Jexx was already taken. There's one other person out there that uses that name (at least on Twitter) and she's a girl. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good to know. I always forgot the 21 part and had to make sure to add it on when I reread my post.

Calvarok
10-14-2011, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Calvarok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chamboozer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
But AC does basically tell us that Jesus didn't have healing powers...

Which oddly enough fits perfectly with the Islamic belief that Jesus did (with the permission of God) merely make it appear that he had healing powers. Also the idea of his crucifiction not being real, and only an image. Sounds a lot like the Apple of Eden.

Furthermore I think it makes perfect sense for Ezio to be a Christian. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ezio does not believe in God. He saw that the Vault was empty and heard Minerva speak about how he was made by a mortal race.

He has proof, dudes.

He used to when he was younger, yes.

EDIT: Also, he did many things that are considered sins by the religions people say he's from, and never went to confession and prayed for forgiveness. This confirms that he doesn't actually believe. He says Rest in Peace literally. He doesn't know if there is an afterlife, and he's not worried about it. Either way, the target is going to sleep forever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He doesn't have proof. Rodrigo assumed that "god" was under The Vatican. There was no other reason for Ezio to assume that whatever was there had anything to do with god. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you look back, I didn't use Rodrigo's misplaced assumption as proof. I used the fact that a crazy hologram of an ancient race TOLD him that humans were created by them, and mistook them for gods.

mojsarn
10-14-2011, 09:56 PM
Of course he was christian, but that doesnt mean he believe, a big difference.

Im am a christian, been baptised and done the communion, but it doesent mean im a believer, i am an atheist to the bone...

So it very most likely that Ezio is an atheist giving what he have seen, but, no will know for sure until he says so himself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Poodle_of_Doom
10-14-2011, 10:06 PM
Getting back on topic, does anyone think that the Templars have/will infiltrate other religious organizations, as a means of control? If so, how do you think that will affect the series?

kriegerdesgottes
10-14-2011, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by mojsarn:
Of course he was christian, but that doesnt mean he believe, a big difference.

Im am a christian, been baptised and done the communion, but it doesent mean im a believer, i am an atheist to the bone...

So it very most likely that Ezio is an atheist giving what he have seen, but, no will know for sure until he says so himself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That's not how that works at all. If you don't believe in God or furthermore that Jesus is his son and the savior then you are straight out not a Christian. You can't say oh well I was born into a Christian family so I'm Christian. That's not how that works. I agree with Rey though about Ezio being most likely Agnostic than anything else.

@Calvarok. Just because the TWTCB said they made him doesn't mean that someone didn't make them in the AC universe. The game doesn't necessarily claim there is no God and Ezio's beliefs I think are purposefully left vague.

Calvarok
10-14-2011, 10:13 PM
Then why does he make an effort to say his church is not of god and stuff?

I understand that he has the idea that no-one should be forced into believing anything, and that's actually my personal outlook as a christian (I need to live according to the bible, and never be afraid to talk about it with anyone who seems interested, but hate for anyone who doesn't believe what I do is unacceptable)

But I don't think that that is what the writers have in mind. He's been given proof that God as he knows him is a fabrication of humans who could not understand a previous species.

Sure he could believe that a God created them, but then he'd have an entirely different religion, and no actual guidelines for said religion. His religion is to do everything he can to live life to the fullest and make choices that lead to a better life for everyone after him, and not worry about death until he's dead.

Which is the religion of everyone who claims not to follow a religion, really.

EmperorxZurg
10-14-2011, 10:28 PM
^This. Just because another link in the chain was added in the thematic hierarchy, doesn't mean they're trying to disprove a holy trinity or any other kind of religious belief to be replaced with the oligarchy of TWTCB. merely that we "overlooked" someone higher than us.

Although, I do believe that if the Templars invaded other religions, they may not actually believe different, but for appearances sake, will act different. After all, the Pope may have power, But the Borgia had to carefully plan their moves so as not to attract the public's eye. So if Hindu or Islam was infiltrated, they'd have to act with different customs and such to achieve their goals. Thus setting a different role of means to achieve their goal.

naran6142
10-14-2011, 10:29 PM
i dont think ezio has a religion because of the creed

nothing is true, everything is permitted

the idea is that the assassin have to separate themselves from the world to better understand it

a religion (any religion) would give you answers and i think the idea is that an assassin isn't supposed to be given the answers, their supposed to find them for themselves

at least that my take on it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bajingantengik
10-14-2011, 10:32 PM
based on the some comments logic of this thread, if ezio is a christian, then altair is a muslim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif , as hashashin is originally islamic order.

get over it, they cant really believe any monotheistic religion after they see what TWCB and PoE shown them.

even in some of the codex, it said that, (i forget the exact words) "it is foolish for any man to believe that a singular deity is the one who responsible to created the universe"

and btw i dont think that buddhism could be used by templars, seeing as it remains a pretty much peaceful religion until now.

Calvarok
10-14-2011, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by naran6142:
i dont think ezio has a religion because of the creed

nothing is true, everything is permitted

the idea is that the assassin have to separate themselves from the world to better understand it

a religion (any religion) would give you answers and i think the idea is that an assassin isn't supposed to be given the answers, their supposed to find them for themselves

at least that my take on it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Most religions are not about getting answers, but accepting that not all answers can be learned in this life.

naran6142
10-14-2011, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Calvarok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by naran6142:
i dont think ezio has a religion because of the creed

nothing is true, everything is permitted

the idea is that the assassin have to separate themselves from the world to better understand it

a religion (any religion) would give you answers and i think the idea is that an assassin isn't supposed to be given the answers, their supposed to find them for themselves

at least that my take on it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Most religions are not about getting answers, but accepting that not all answers can be learned in this life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im pretty sure religion does provide answers to some things

either way u get my point

ace3001
10-14-2011, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by bajingantengik:
based on the some comments logic of this thread, if ezio is a christian, then altair is a muslim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif , as hashashin is originally islamic order. This.

Oliver Bowden's versions of the story are rather... doubtful to say the least, and IMO, we should go by only what's in the games (as far as AC2 and ACB are concerned).

Keighvin
10-14-2011, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
All of the Templars do not believe in God no matter what their ethnicity was, and Rodrigo hid his Atheism so he can become Pope, I dont think he went and told them " meh I never believed in god, but can I be Pope ?"

My point was that the Templars were already in AC1 a group made up of people outside Christianity who had powerful positions.

I know the individuals are atheist, but was it said that they were openly not Muslim?

So I would have to say that yes, they have likely infiltrated many religions, just that the areas we have visited have had a preponderance of Christians.

mojsarn
10-15-2011, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by kriegerdesgotte:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mojsarn:
Of course he was christian, but that doesnt mean he believe, a big difference.

Im am a christian, been baptised and done the communion, but it doesent mean im a believer, i am an atheist to the bone...

So it very most likely that Ezio is an atheist giving what he have seen, but, no will know for sure until he says so himself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That's not how that works at all. If you don't believe in God or furthermore that Jesus is his son and the savior then you are straight out not a Christian. You can't say oh well I was born into a Christian family so I'm Christian. That's not how that works. I agree with Rey though about Ezio being most likely Agnostic than anything else.

@Calvarok. Just because the TWTCB said they made him doesn't mean that someone didn't make them in the AC universe. The game doesn't necessarily claim there is no God and Ezio's beliefs I think are purposefully left vague. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A good point, but people in general have a need to categorize themselves, and I was born in a Christian country, registered in the Swedish Church, atleast I think Im Christian because of that as any other man or woman baptised.

Then what I choose to believe is another matter, but I still am a Christian.

Or is it that you dont see me worthy calling myself a Christian since Im not a believer? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just what I think anyway =)

Assassin_M
10-15-2011, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Keighvin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Assassin_M:
All of the Templars do not believe in God no matter what their ethnicity was, and Rodrigo hid his Atheism so he can become Pope, I dont think he went and told them " meh I never believed in god, but can I be Pope ?"

My point was that the Templars were already in AC1 a group made up of people outside Christianity who had powerful positions.

I know the individuals are atheist, but was it said that they were openly not Muslim?

So I would have to say that yes, they have likely infiltrated many religions, just that the areas we have visited have had a preponderance of Christians. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh okay thanks for clearing that up now, you are right about that.

EmperorxZurg
10-15-2011, 12:25 AM
....you know that's wrong right? Categorically, you don't fit the requirements to be a Christian if you don't believe in it. You just have Christian heritage; what you choose to believe determines your religion. Hence the point of this whole game. Rodrigo Borgio was Atheist because he didn't believe in God; but was raised Christian and "practiced" their beliefs. He still wasn't Christian though due to personal belief. There is nothing wrong with it, but you aren't Christian.

Poodle_of_Doom
10-15-2011, 12:38 AM
And coming back full circle, what do you all think about the possiblity of other religions being used as a means of control in the AC universe, and what causation stems from this possibility?

Assassin_M
10-15-2011, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
And coming back full circle, what do you all think about the possiblity of other religions being used as a means of control in the AC universe, and what causation stems from this possibility?
Well till now the Templars infiltrated Islam and christianity, and as someone said before religion is the best way to control if you dont have a POE.

mojsarn
10-15-2011, 12:55 AM
Well in Srebrenica they didnt care if they where believers or not, categorized anyway. Terrible example I know but where I getting at is that you are still viewed as a Christian even if you dont believe.

In Sweden its hardly something something percent of the population going to the church every Sunday. But its still considered a Christian country.

But do not despair, Ive been enlightened!! I know now your view on it and I agree, I thought you were a Christian just by doing the sacraments, so thanks for clearing that up and sorry for going off topic.

ON TOPIC
Well surely they already have the Orthodox Christians in their palm considering they are in Constantinople, Its just the eastern religions left for them it seems.

Assassin_M
10-15-2011, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by mojsarn:
Well in Srebrenica they didnt care if they where believers or not, categorized anyway. Terrible example I know but where I getting at is that you are still viewed as a Christian even if you dont believe.

In Sweden its hardly something something percent of the population going to the church every Sunday. But its still considered a Christian country.

But do not despair, Ive been enlightened!! I know now your view on it and I agree, I thought you were a Christian just by doing the sacraments, so thanks for clearing that up and sorry for going off topic.

ON TOPIC
Well surely they already have the Orthodox Christians in their palm considering they are in Constantinople, Its just the eastern religions left for them it seems.
I believe they have infiltrated religions there as well, seeing as many of their emperors were Templars.

EmperorxZurg
10-15-2011, 01:05 AM
you don't have to go to church to be Christian 0_o I'm a Jesus Freak, and I never go to Church. I'm Non-Denominational, so I don't believe in the Church. The main thing to being a Christian is if you believe in God, and that Jesus was His Son sent to die for our sins. That's the core definition of Christianity.

ON TOPIC:
I would refer to my previous theory. They still personally believe the same thing, but would use each religion's culture and social thesis to dictate which actions should be taken to keep the public eye away. Like a Murdoff scandal! XD

Blind2Society
10-15-2011, 01:14 AM
I have to agree with disturbed though I'm not a Jesus freak. I think Simon Pegg said it best in Hot Fuzz. "I'm open to the concept of religion I'm just not entirely convinced by it."

Also, I don't think Jesus spent much of his time in a Church either.

kriegerdesgottes
10-15-2011, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Blind2Society:
I have to agree with disturbed though I'm not a Jesus freak. I think Simon Pegg said it best in Hot Fuzz. "I'm open to the concept of religion I'm just not entirely convinced by it."

Also, I don't think Jesus spent much of his time in a Church either.

Jesus was the church http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Wherever he was it was church. Before he came there was no such thing as a church anyway only synagogues. disturbed is right but I personally like to be in church just to be with other Christians and it makes me feel closer to God. It is never required though.

mojsarn
10-15-2011, 02:20 AM
It was just a saying, I meant the religious people in general.
But I buy everything you say, of course you dont have to go to church to believe.

itsamea-mario
10-15-2011, 02:55 AM
Well Christianity was majorly edited and distorted by the roman empire in the 4th century.(apparently)

Anyway the templars will infiltrate whatever institutions that can grant them the most power and control, the catholic church in Christian countries, Islam in Muslim ones etc.

I think ezio may believe in a higher power, but I don't think it's the Christian god.

Poodle_of_Doom
10-15-2011, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by d1sturbedme_468:
you don't have to go to church to be Christian 0_o I'm a Jesus Freak, and I never go to Church. I'm Non-Denominational, so I don't believe in the Church. The main thing to being a Christian is if you believe in God, and that Jesus was His Son sent to die for our sins. That's the core definition of Christianity.

I don't think that this is the exact view of it if your Unitarian.

Chamboozer
10-15-2011, 12:28 PM
I imagine the reason the Ottomans are the enemies of the Templars is because Islam is impossible for them to infiltrate - no hierarchical clergy.

Calvarok
10-15-2011, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by kriegerdesgotte:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blind2Society:
I have to agree with disturbed though I'm not a Jesus freak. I think Simon Pegg said it best in Hot Fuzz. "I'm open to the concept of religion I'm just not entirely convinced by it."

Also, I don't think Jesus spent much of his time in a Church either.

Jesus was the church http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Wherever he was it was church. Before he came there was no such thing as a church anyway only synagogues. disturbed is right but I personally like to be in church just to be with other Christians and it makes me feel closer to God. It is never required though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is actually so right.

The official definition of a church given in the Bible is just a group of believers, supporting each other. It's not intended to be a giant monolithic organization. Each person is supposed to make his or her own church. Regular meetings don't need to happen.

When you've got a huge organization, crap like the catholic church in Ezio's time happens.

No-one should be able to say that he is the pope and is the only one able to forgive sins, or that they're "higher" in God's eyes in any way.

It baffles me how they got/get away with it even though it's specifically said not to do this in the Bible.

Azula2005
10-15-2011, 01:07 PM
<span class="ev_code_BROWN">OK, WE NEED TO ASK ESCO TO ASK THE DEVS THE QUESTION "Hey, btw...what's Ezios religion?" </span>

Poodle_of_Doom
10-15-2011, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Gabrieldebeta:
<span class="ev_code_BROWN">OK, WE NEED TO ASK ESCO TO ASK THE DEVS THE QUESTION "Hey, btw...what's Ezios religion?" </span>

Ask him to mention me specifically when referencing the quetion.... I'd like to be given credit for inadvertantly helping to inspire the quetion.

Animuses
10-15-2011, 01:57 PM
Yeah, but Jexx and I started this whole thing.

Azula2005
10-15-2011, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gabrieldebeta:
<span class="ev_code_BROWN">OK, WE NEED TO ASK ESCO TO ASK THE DEVS THE QUESTION "Hey, btw...what's Ezios religion?" </span>

Ask him to mention me specifically when referencing the quetion.... I'd like to be given credit for inadvertantly helping to inspire the quetion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, no prob.

kriegerdesgottes
10-15-2011, 02:37 PM
Jesus was the church http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Wherever he was it was church. Before he came there was no such thing as a church anyway only synagogues. disturbed is right but I personally like to be in church just to be with other Christians and it makes me feel closer to God. It is never required though.



This is actually so right.

The official definition of a church given in the Bible is just a group of believers, supporting each other. It's not intended to be a giant monolithic organization. Each person is supposed to make his or her own church. Regular meetings don't need to happen.

When you've got a huge organization, crap like the catholic church in Ezio's time happens.

No-one should be able to say that he is the pope and is the only one able to forgive sins, or that they're "higher" in God's eyes in any way.

It baffles me how they got/get away with it even though it's specifically said not to do this in the Bible.

Calvarok we don't agree on much in here lol and that's ok. We just have different opinions on the AC franchise but I could not possibly agree with you more on this one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Black_Widow9
10-15-2011, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Gabrieldebeta:
<span class="ev_code_BROWN">OK, WE NEED TO ASK ESCO TO ASK THE DEVS THE QUESTION "Hey, btw...what's Ezios religion?" </span>
You could try and ask UbiGabe here (http://www.facebook.com/UbiGabe?ref=ts&sk=wall) or here. (http://twitter.com/#!/ubigabe) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Azula2005
10-15-2011, 04:23 PM
OK if you guys/gals would like to see the post on UbiGabes wall(facebook) Here's the link (http://www.facebook.com/UbiGabe)

Credit to my friend Mohammed for posting it(i had to sleep lol)

jmk1999
10-15-2011, 06:56 PM
just a heads up after reading through this thread... some comments are getting dangerously close to religion as a whole. let's keep it on topic with the AC universe and keep personal beliefs out of this to avoid misunderstanding and hostility. thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Poodle_of_Doom
10-15-2011, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by dom1999:
just a heads up after reading through this thread... some comments are getting dangerously close to religion as a whole. let's keep it on topic with the AC universe and keep personal beliefs out of this to avoid misunderstanding and hostility. thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Actually, I was beginning to think the same thing.... and was almost ready to ask that it gets locked. To be honest, I don't know why people strayed so far from the original question.

Saqaliba
10-16-2011, 02:52 AM
So, I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian (Russian Orthodox) and I have been reading up the history of Byzantium even before I knew the game would be set there... quite excited it is. But even before I was a Christian I was studying Islamic Mysticism and Kabbalah and Alchemy for many years. I was reading about the Ismai'ilis before Assassin's Creed even existed.

Now, the Ismai'ili's are not quite 'orthodox' Islam. Firstly they are Shi'ite and mostly originated in Iran and slowly founded the order in Syria which is where Masayf was based.

For the history of the Ismai'ili's I highly recommend Farhad Daftary. For the mysticism I recommend a French scholar called Henry Corbin.

There tenants differ in a great way from the Sunni Islam.

As for Christianity. The Italians of the Renaissance were Catholic (Latin Christianity). There was a Schism in 1054A.D. between the Christians of the West and the Christians of the East due to what is called the filioque clause. This has to do with how they believe in Christ amongst other dogmas latter down the track. (i.e. Orthodox don't believe in Purgatory, Catholics do).

There is a great characteristic of difference in the approach to Christianity between the West, that is 'Latin Catholics' and the East - what we now know as the Byazntians.

None of this actual history is really important for the game dynamics since, the 'Assassin' order as it is ficitionalized by the franchise is based on the dynamics of the political compass and not religious creed. That political compass is the difference between liberationists and authoritarians. Both utilize whatever power they can to push their political ideology. In the early days that mean the Assassin's utilized religion just as the Templars did... Ismai'li v.s. Christian/Saracean

Then again, the Templars used the Latin Catholic foundation of the Papacy whilst Ezio himself used no particular foundation other than the faction of the people - the populi - thieves, mercenaries, courtesans... note.. there was a Catholic nun amongst them, but she was hardly 'holy' regarding religious piety. And before Ezio, his Father used the financial medium as it flourished in Florence. I guess we can say the Rennaisance Assassin's used, not so much Religion but the 'humanitarian' world-view of its time. However, little known fact is that the house of Medici did heavily support the reading of Greek wisdom such as the corpus hermeticum and Plato.

Now, the Latins in Altair's day actually sacked Constantinople... the Templars and the Franks of the west were very hostile to the Eastern Christians and literally murdered the monks and nuns and looted the Hagia Sophia (which was a Christian Church). Yes.. Christians (Catholics) killing Christians (Orthodox).

I have a feeling this will be in the Game, as I believe Altair will visit Constantinople during the beginning of the 4th Crusade as implied int the book.

Whilst during Ezio's time it is over-run by the Ottomans... who are Sunni... so they are quite a different thing religiously than the Ismai'li of Syria. Whilst the Paleologos where Orthodox Emperors and closer to the Russian Orthodoxy we have today... hence the churches looking so Byzantine.

Calvarok
10-16-2011, 03:31 AM
Sister Tedora had her own views on worship, yes.

The Renaissance Assassin order does not forbid their own members believing one thing or another. They merely ask that they do what is best for the people, and constantly question what that is.

And yes, the Byzantines are Christians and the Ottomans are muslim.

But the Byzantine faction shown in the game is not actually the Byzantines as a whole, but a huge chunk of them which the Templars managed to bring entirely under their control.

In actual history, I don't think the Byzantine rebels were quite so organized.

Anyways, we're talking about Ezio's religion here, and as for my final thoughts on that: I don't think that he really believes in placing his faith in life after death. He deals with the problems he has on earth, he will face whatever comes after later.

Saqaliba
10-16-2011, 07:00 PM
the Byzantines are Christians and the Ottomans are muslim.

The Byzantines are Eastern Orthodox Christians and the Ottoman's are an Islamic Sunni Caliphate contrast:

Templars are of Latin-Frankish origin and adopted the Latin Catholicism whilst the Ismai'lis are Muslim Shi'ites.

Saladin = Sunni Muslim (Ayyubid Caliphate)
al-Maulam (Rashid al-Sinan) = Shi'ite (Imami)
Templars = Christian Catholics (filioque adherants)/Papists

Medici/Auditory = Catholic (filioque aderent)/Neo-platonist humanist (revivalist)
Borgia = Catholic Christian (filioque aderent) - power hungry athiest.
Ottomans = Sunni Muslim(Caliphate)
Byzantines = Eastern Orthodox Christianity (hesychasts)

What I believe the game is trying to imply is the utility of power struggle in the political compass amidst religious tensions.

So the Assassin's as liberationists are basically heterodoxy (ismaili/neo-platonism) whilst the Templars are authoritarian and Orthodoxy (sunni/catholic/patrisitic).

We will see that in 2012, the power struggle has moved away from religious politics to socio-economic structures. Just as back in the middle-ages the general person was deeply involved in the theological situations now the everyday man is concerned moreso with the socio-economics as a primary concern and the religious problem as second to this. So the power struggle focuses in this sphere. technology, media, money, power.


But the Byzantine faction shown in the game is not actually the Byzantines as a whole, but a huge chunk of them which the Templars managed to bring entirely under their control.

Yes. My guess is that Manuel Paleologos is majorly miffed-off because - thanks to the Ottoman take over in 1453 - he is officially robbed of his opportunity and title of being an Emperor, like his fathers before him - so the Templars seize this opportunity to use his grudge to align whatever power the Paleologos would have (i.e. military forces from the recently expired Eastern-Roman Empire). The Byzantines in the game would have been 'Roman soldiers', historically speaking, so there would be some organizational skills involved, albeit weakened by the Ottoman seige.


Anyways, we're talking about Ezio's religion here, and as for my final thoughts on that: I don't think that he really believes in placing his faith in life after death. He deals with the problems he has on earth, he will face whatever comes after later.

It's quite laughable actually. Technically Ezio is raised in the very same religion the Templars based themselves in - Catholicism. There is an awesome quote in the Oliver Bowden book after Ezio assassinates Antonio Maffeo:

EZIO: "The Templars lost their Christianity when they discovered banking. Do you not know your own gospel? 'Thou canst not serve God and Mammon'!"

This is so close to the truth. It started with Charlemagne and lead up to the actual formation of the Templars and their 'booty-looting' expeditions. Ironically, the Auditore family are Rennaisance Bankers... but in reality, if aligned to the Medici they would have been Humanists of the like of Marsillo Ficino and Pico Della Mirandolla - deeply interested in the Pagan origins of Christianities past - i.e Neo-Platonism and Hermeticism.

I really hope that Ezio, like Altair actually start exploring their spiritual sentiments... ie. what is the meaning of all this?

E-Zekiel
10-16-2011, 07:23 PM
If you pay attention to the side-stuff (namely, the puzzles) in AC2 and AC:B it becomes clear that as religion became sort of "dated" as a method to control peoples' minds, they shifted their focus onto the religion of greed. IE, money, and busting their asses in order to make sure nothing is more powerful the money and that it has true control of the world.

What's scary is that....that's not really fiction, right there. :/

Calvarok
10-16-2011, 07:28 PM
Attis. Dionysus. Horus. Krishna. Mithra. Jesus. Similar stories color their lives. Too similar, I think. Divine birthright. Persecution. Disciples. Miraculous acts. Resurrection...
How is it possible?
Perhaps it isn't... Merely a single story told over the ages? Borrowed then changed to fit the times? Evolving as our tools and language do? Is this tale born of fact or fiction? A bit of both? Could these figures be the same person – their life extended and transformed by a Piece of Eden?
Al Mualim spoke of Jesus as a real person – a mortal who had mastered the arts of manipulation. But what if he was wrong? If these men are real – and if they have walked amongst us many times before – does it mean they'll come again? Perhaps they are here now? So many questions, and every day, even more...
They kinda have, actually. You're not seeming to take into account the entire TWCB storyline at all, BTW.

I think you're reading too much into a few things, or at least using too many different terms for denomination and such.

Saqaliba
10-16-2011, 08:11 PM
If you pay attention to the side-stuff (namely, the puzzles) in AC2 and AC:B it becomes clear that as religion became sort of "dated" as a method to control peoples' minds, they shifted their focus onto the religion of greed. IE, money, and busting their asses in order to make sure nothing is more powerful the money and that it has true control of the world.

Yes, that is what I meant by "the power struggle has moved away from religious politics to socio-economic structures". And yes, I believe that this is not far from the truth. In fact, if you are into conspiracy theories, then the works of Joseph P. Farrell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Farrell) are almost exactly the same as the entire mythos of Assassin's Creed. His book called Babylon's Banksters (http://www.amazon.com/Babylons-Banksters-Alchemy-Physics-Religion/dp/1932595791) is basically about an elite group of 'gods' that have controlled religion and finance from way back into Egypt and Babylonian times (Nimrod) even going so far as saying that the Pyramids and other like temples are technological weapons built is such a way as to harness peizo-eletro-magnetcs to be communication channels and also inter-stellar weapons.

Some of his ideas are borrowed from a kind of Zacheria Sitchin type lunacy, but he has his own approach with is really original and very plausible. He is a competent researcher and very well read in a vast number of areas from history and theology to esotericism and physics.

Now, we have these same sorts of 'electro-magentic' weapons used by governments using television, memes, internet, popular trends etc. Basically all the things implied in the 'Truth' puzzles.

In deed there is a theory called Project Bluebeam (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Project_Blue_Beam) which is almost exactly like the Abstergo-Eye satellite launch planned for 2012, the 'space-show' using the P.O.E. I won't go into it, but you can look it up on a wiki.


Attis. Dionysus. Horus. Krishna. Mithra. Jesus. Similar stories color their lives. Too similar, I think. Divine birthright. Persecution. Disciples. Miraculous acts. Resurrection...
How is it possible?
Perhaps it isn't... Merely a single story told over the ages? Borrowed then changed to fit the times?

This is actually a popular notion today. That the mytho-sphere is a repetitive cycle of the same idea. A 'savior/messiah' figure. This idea, though not new became revived recently by the Zeitgeist Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zeitgeist_Movement). It is pretty popular. In fact, it would not surprise me if some of the Creed mythology originated because some Ubisoft people actually subscribe to the Zeitgeist concept. Horus=Mithras=Tammuz=Christ=...

When I first read the Codex, I was like... oh, its that Zeitgeist thing again. "Nothing is True Everything is Permitted" & "Do What Though Wilt Shall be the Whole of the Law" and religious heterodoxy kinda go hand in hand. Even Nietzsche revered the Order of the Assassins. I imagine Aliester Crowley would make a great character for the AC cosmology.

Sarari
10-16-2011, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by E-Zekiel:
If you pay attention to the side-stuff (namely, the puzzles) in AC2 and AC:B it becomes clear that as religion became sort of "dated" as a method to control peoples' minds, they shifted their focus onto the religion of greed. IE, money, and busting their asses in order to make sure nothing is more powerful the money and that it has true control of the world.

What's scary is that....that's not really fiction, right there. :/
It's sad because people abused the religion of Christianity in so many ways.
1. People became Popes for money.

2. People became a part of the church so they can be a higher rank in the social triangle.

3. The church sold Indulgence to the people which meant that all their sins will be gone. But the whole purpose for that was to make money. It was like buying your sins away.

4. Generals or military rulers promised people who joined the military eternal after life (Heaven). But what gives a military ruler the right to just say that. He doesn't have the power to do so of course.

The list just goes on. Thankfully, we don't see these many problems anymore.

Saqaliba
10-16-2011, 08:37 PM
The selling of indulgences was a great low point in Catholicism which lead to the reformation. And one of Lorenzo Medici's own son who was responsible for that - the Medici Pope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_X), so yeah, the Medici where historically just as suckful as the Borgia in regards to piety in Christianity.

Now we have thousands of 'christianities'. What the Latin Christians lost in the schism from the west was hesychasm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm). The Christianity of 'Christ' more resembled the asceticism of Far-Eastern religions (Buddhism/Taoism) than it does of the Protestant/Catholic christianity of today, which sadly became so rooted in politics. The conspiracies are closer to the truth. Charlemagne instated the (un)Holy Vehm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehmic_court), a juridical order of knights. By my reckoning, this group evolved into the Templars. It was Charlemagne who was directly responsible for the shattering of Christendom in the West from the East. Political motivations of course - Charlemagne would make the ultimate Templar actually.

Sarari
10-16-2011, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Saqaliba:
The selling of indulgences was a great low point in Catholicism which lead to the reformation. Now we have thousands of 'christianities'. What the Latin Christians lost in the schism from the west was hesychasm. The Christianity of 'Christ' more resembled the asceticism of Far-Eastern religions (Buddhism/Taoism) than it does of the Protestant/Catholic christianity of today.
Wow, big words ;P But the indulgence may have been a positive thing for some people, but the rest of the things people did such as becoming Pope for money wasn't positive....at least religious wise.

Saqaliba
10-16-2011, 09:01 PM
..the indulgence may have been a positive thing for some people, but the rest of the things people did such as becoming Pope for money wasn't positive....at least religious wise.

Well, it was implemented for financial gain for the Papacy. And Giovanni di Lorenzo de' Medici (aka Pope Leo X) was only doing what Medici do best. Being a banker... now let us recall Ezio's word's from Oliver Bowden:

EZIO: "The Templars lost their Christianity when they discovered banking. Do you not know your own gospel? 'Thou canst not serve God and Mammon'!"

Historically, the Papacy was capable of doing this because they had introduced an idea into Christianity during the Renaissance - the idea of Purgatory. Simple. How do you win the money of the people. You use their fears against them. Give the Papacy money and it will secure you a good place in Purgatory whereby you can be granted access to heaven. There was actually a massive council in Florence and Ferrera between the 'Byzantine' Orthodox East and the Latin Catholics fighting about the idea of Purgatory. Since it was never resolved, the Papacy was able to used it to dupe the people into thinking they could 'buy grace'. This lead to the Reformation. Sadly. Purgatory is still believed in to this day amongst Catholics. That you can penitently 'buy' your safe-haven through self-mortification.

Sarari
10-16-2011, 09:07 PM
That is kinda sad. God said the only way to go to heaven is to worship me, in the Bible, Quran, and the Torah. But then they said that you can do all these things to go to heaven, when all you have to do is believe in him. Simple as that is, people were still scared for no reason.

Saqaliba
10-16-2011, 09:23 PM
said the only way to go to heaven is to worship me, in the Bible, Quran, and the Torah. But then they said that you can do all these things to go to heaven, when all you have to do is believe in him. Simple as that is, people were still scared for no reason.

Indeed. The Templar interception. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Using Mammon to deviate from the 'big question' and substituting 'Fear of God' with terror of the abyss of death. True fear is a burning love. ?? ??? ??? ???? instead of ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????

jmk1999
10-16-2011, 10:02 PM
once again, you're all straying a bit. i understand the need for factual background, but i'm sensing personal beliefs getting involved again. please don't make me ask again or the thread will be locked. keep the topic within the AC fictional world only.

Saqaliba
10-16-2011, 10:23 PM
erstand the need for factual background, but i'm sensing personal beliefs getting involved again. please don't make me ask again or the thread will be locked. keep the topic within the AC fictional world only.

Sure. Well, then religion need not be discussed. What we should be discussing is the dynamic tensions between the polarities of the political compass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass) and what role they play between the factions and how they may blur...

Not straying in that thought, because Darby McDevitt himself has said in interveiws that the story is about the political compass and NOT religion.

So, accordingly, the dichotomies are: authoritarian and libertarian.

Thus far it can be seen:

Assassin's display the quality of libertarian. Defined as "belief that personal freedom should be maximised". It's tendency is towards a diversity through the freedom of human will and its extreme detriment would be 'Anarchism' or chaos without order - and thus the irony of the Creed which Altair questions in the Codex.

Templars display the quality of authoritarian. Defined as "belief that authority and tradition should be obeyed". It's tendency is towards unity through Monarchy, or a One-World-Order, totalitarianism and dictatorship headed by the Templars themselves... its detriment is that it uses any means possible to achieve this including slavery, suppression and death and illusion.

Now, I believe in Revelations we are going to see the same doubts in Ezio as expressed by Altair in the codex... those classic dialogues between Altair and al-Mualim... what is the difference. How do they blur. The irony of a 'free-will' and yet adherence to a tenant of a creed... is this not an authoritarian ideology?! Does not the slogan 'nothing is true-everything is permitted' cancel it's own logic! Keeping to the political compass purely... not going into religious dialogue. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Poodle_of_Doom
10-16-2011, 11:10 PM
So, attempting a summation of the responses, the answer to my original question is "Political Tension"?

Saqaliba
10-16-2011, 11:14 PM
Political tension is the symptom. The goal is mind-control remember. The P.O.E literally control the cerebral cortex causing temporal lobe hallucination.

So the Templars use these to control society. The assassin's to liberate them. Or so it seems. Hence the tension.

Of course 'knowledge is power' and the animus technology is used to extract it through memory. Emphasis is on 'power' not knowledge. But that may change in Revelations.

LightRey
10-17-2011, 03:53 AM
Damn Saqaliba, I wish I were awake enough to- ah, who am I kidding, I'm too lazy to read everything you've posted, but from what I've read that's some seriously good info.

E-Zekiel
10-17-2011, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Sarari:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by E-Zekiel:
If you pay attention to the side-stuff (namely, the puzzles) in AC2 and AC:B it becomes clear that as religion became sort of "dated" as a method to control peoples' minds, they shifted their focus onto the religion of greed. IE, money, and busting their asses in order to make sure nothing is more powerful the money and that it has true control of the world.

What's scary is that....that's not really fiction, right there. :/
It's sad because people abused the religion of Christianity in so many ways.
1. People became Popes for money.

2. People became a part of the church so they can be a higher rank in the social triangle.

3. The church sold Indulgence to the people which meant that all their sins will be gone. But the whole purpose for that was to make money. It was like buying your sins away.

4. Generals or military rulers promised people who joined the military eternal after life (Heaven). But what gives a military ruler the right to just say that. He doesn't have the power to do so of course.

The list just goes on. Thankfully, we don't see these many problems anymore. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We do still see these problems. The point of my post was to say that the world, IN REAL LIFE, is controlled by the religion of greed now, instead of an actual theological religion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Also, dom1999, it's called historical fiction for a reason. Whether or not some of us think the ideas brought up in the game or not are very viable as theories for alternative history in real life is our own prerogative, but regardless, it is still on-topic. And nobody as far as I can tell is flaming, so I fail to see how there is a problem.

Saqaliba:

Yup, I remember reading about Nietzche's research/philosophies regarding the assassins. In fact, I have a quote on the topic as one of my forum sigs for a separate forums. I was contemplating making it this one here, but I felt it wouldn't really be taken as intended on this forum.

Poodle_of_Doom
10-17-2011, 03:43 PM
Actually, I wouldn't mind having it posted here, as long as it's not used as an attack on religion. Personally, I'm not fully up to speed on any of his work, which is why I never directly commented on Saqaliba's posts.

Saqaliba
10-17-2011, 06:11 PM
Yup, I remember reading about Nietzche's research/philosophies regarding the assassins. In fact, I have a quote on the topic as one of my forum sigs for a separate forums. I was contemplating making it this one here, but I felt it wouldn't really be taken as intended on this forum.

Which of the orders to you feel has the most nihilistic tendencies?

The Templars are typically atheist, but there are moments where the Assassin's have their doubts, knowing what they know, that religious based 'visions' are due to the illusions created by the P.O.E.

Calvarok
10-17-2011, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Saqaliba:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yup, I remember reading about Nietzche's research/philosophies regarding the assassins. In fact, I have a quote on the topic as one of my forum sigs for a separate forums. I was contemplating making it this one here, but I felt it wouldn't really be taken as intended on this forum.

Which of the orders to you feel has the most nihilistic tendencies?

The Templars are typically atheist, but there are moments where the Assassin's have their doubts, knowing what they know, that religious based 'visions' are due to the illusions created by the P.O.E. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think all Templars are atheist, actually, and neither are all assassins.

Neither of them believe in a secular theology, but that's not to say that they can't believe in there being SOME purpose in life.

Templars use secular religion as a system of control, but may or may not truly believe in a higher power, Assassins work to destroy all unfair systems of control, and may or may not believe in a higher power.

The thing is, no matter what they believe, they act according to the philosiphies of their groups before anything else.

The only exception to this are Templars who let their own personal beliefs seep into their actions and motivations, like Cesare plotting to take over Italy because he believed he was destined to.

But the beauty of the Templar philosophy is that it doesn't matter if the world is under Templar control for the wrong reasons, it just needs to be under control, because even an evil dictator can't screw up a world where everyone but him and a few others is totally hypnotized. And then all they have to do is put themselves out of the equation as well, probably disposing of anyone like Cesare who would want to mess around with the people, at that point, and then retiring to some private island.

So in the end, the Assassins would tend to be more accepting of other's beliefs, while the Templars would crush everyone's, even their own.

I find them interesting because the true templar practitioners really don't want power, they feel as if it's a responsibility to take it, use it to "Fix" the world, and then dissapear.

I'm not really going anywhere with this, just some musings.

Chamboozer
10-17-2011, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Saqaliba:

The Byzantines are Eastern Orthodox Christians and the Ottoman's are an Islamic Sunni Caliphate contrast:


The Ottomans were not Caliphs at this time, that title rested with a remnant of the Abbasid family in Mameluk Cairo. It's important to make this distinction because the Sunni doctrine was not firmly ingrained into the Ottoman state yet - the events that would cause that occur during the game, with a real exsitential threat to the Ottomans coming from the Shi'ites of Anatolia and by extension Ismail I, the Safavid Shah. Ottoman eyes in 1511 were firmly rooted in the East, which as it relates to Assassin's Creed makes it easier for Templar agents to stir up trouble in the West.

Another note about the Ottoman Caliphate - even after the title was taken in 1517 it did not play any prominent role in Ottoman propaganda, although it was occasionally brought up. In fact, it wasn't until Abdulhamid II in the 19th Century that there was ever an Ottoman Sultan identifying himself primarily as Caliph.

Saqaliba
10-17-2011, 09:43 PM
Cool. Thanks for that. Better with my 'shi'ite mysticism' than my history of Caliphates.

I find it interesting that the Franks actually weakened Constantinople for the taking.