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FA_Whisky
08-03-2005, 07:02 AM
Can't be straight up, so what should it be? 20*, 30*, 40*?? Or more?

MEGILE
08-03-2005, 07:16 AM
Interesting question and long debated...

I think if you are in a Focke Wulf being chased by a Spitfire.. long extended zoom climbs at shallow angles, keeping the speed high are required..
But I suppose if you are above the fight and have bagfuls of e over everyone else, nothig wrong with going vertical.

A good point is that, in British Tests of Tempest V vs. Spitfire XIV, the Tempest was noted for outzooming the Spitfire early in the climb, but the Spitfire would have no problem in catching up if the speed is allowed to drop to climbing speed.

Slickun
08-03-2005, 07:32 AM
megile wrote:

A good point is that, in British Tests of Tempest V vs. Spitfire XIV, the Tempest was noted for outzooming the Spitfire early in the climb, but the Spitfire would have no problem in catching up if the speed is allowed to drop to climbing speed.

Slickun says:

Point well taken. But...it is no longer a "zoom" climb if you slow down to normal climb.

MEGILE
08-03-2005, 10:10 AM
No doubt. But it shows that zoom climb is not a magical defensive meneuvre which will give you a free pass.
It is merely a temporary solution. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
08-03-2005, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
No doubt. But it shows that zoom climb is not a magical defensive meneuvre which will give you a free pass.
It is merely a temporary solution. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Exactly! The Fw190A in PF beats any Spitfire in a zoom climb no problem. Many Fw190 flyers don't believe this as they continue up in a sustained climb and get caught by the Spit.

Brain32
08-03-2005, 12:20 PM
Exactly! The Fw190A in PF beats any Spitfire in a zoom climb no problem. Many Fw190 flyers don't believe this as they continue up in a sustained climb and get caught by the Spit.


Hey that's exactly what happens to me, i tried a splitS and a HO on him but that showed not to be a good idea vs expirienced flyers...
Do you have any recommendations about what to do when zoom climb stops to be a good idea?

Atomic_Marten
08-03-2005, 12:34 PM
I will join with few thoughts... FW-190 do not have any chance against Spitfire HF.MK.9e in sustained climb except FW-190D... so I think 90? angle cannot be that bad.

Anyway it really does not matter as long as FW-190 pilot score hits on Spitfire in the first pass, which should be rule for every FW-190 pilot.

faustnik
08-03-2005, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:

Hey that's exactly what happens to me, i tried a splitS and a HO on him but that showed not to be a good idea vs expirienced flyers...
Do you have any recommendations about what to do when zoom climb stops to be a good idea?

Well, I know the Fw190A4 has a climb advantage over the Spit Vb all the way down to 320kph, so that is my cutoff there. With the A6 over the Spit IXc, letting your speed fall below 400kph is very dangerous. I don't try a zoom climb against an Spit IX unless I feel I have an initial energy advatage. But, that's just me, I tend to be a little conservative when flying the 190.

Atomic_Marten
08-03-2005, 01:56 PM
Hey faustnik is that IAS or TAS you're talking about?
Also, don't know much about that high speed climbs, I bet that the Spitfire driver will stay below FW-190 and keeping the speed up so he will shortly gaining on FW-190, depending on the situation. Question is whether FW-190 have enough distance and energy to get away, or otherwise it must get into dive if possible.

faustnik
08-03-2005, 02:11 PM
I would be looking at IAS.

The Fw190 will be gaining distance and altitude on the Spitfire as long as the Fw190 stays at high speed. With the Fw190A4 against the Spit Vb you can almost pull a Bf109-like spiral climb move as long as you keep your angle shallow and your speed high.

The great thing about 4.01 is that it is harder for the Spitfires to pull their nose up at low speed. So, when you get above them using the high speed shallow climb, or a zoom climb, you can set up a shot on you way back down and they really flounder.

AerialTarget
08-03-2005, 02:19 PM
I've not once successfully boom and zoomed with the P-38 since the patch, even though it now has a lot more power. I just can't get high enough no matter what I do. I've tried my old tactic of getting a mile or two in between us then steeply zoom climbing. I've tried immediately zoom climbing steeply. I've tried immediately zoom climbing less drastically. No matter what I do, the enemy always gets a shot at me. It didn't used to be this way.

It seems that the P-38, even with all of its extra power, cannot zoom climb without being blasted out of the sky at the top. Or perhaps I simply forgot how to boom and zoom in it after the patch, even though I've flown in since Aces Expansion Pack day one.

Does anyone feel like posting a few tracks (particularly versus Me-109 G-6 AS, my nemesis) demonstrating your own technique for zoom climbing safely in the P-38?

Atomic_Marten
08-03-2005, 02:21 PM
About that I have noticed that Spitfire is having hard time now on low speed... also can fell into nasty spin if careless with pushing the stick.
That works IMO, besides the fact that Würger outguns Spit badly it also have stability advantage in hammerhead from above in case Spitfire decides to engage from below at 90?.

Atomic_Marten
08-03-2005, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
I've not once successfully boom and zoomed with the P-38 since the patch, even though it now has a lot more power. I just can't get high enough no matter what I do. I've tried my old tactic of getting a mile or two in between us then steeply zoom climbing. I've tried immediately zoom climbing steeply. I've tried immediately zoom climbing less drastically. No matter what I do, the enemy always gets a shot at me. It didn't used to be this way.

It seems that the P-38, even with all of its extra power, cannot zoom climb without being blasted out of the sky at the top. Or perhaps I simply forgot how to boom and zoom in it after the patch, even though I've flown in since Aces Expansion Pack day one.

Does anyone feel like posting a few tracks (particularly versus Me-109 G-6 AS, my nemesis) demonstrating your own technique for zoom climbing safely in the P-38?

I have made several good P-38 BnZ passes on high speed (without entering lawn dart mode on over 700kph). Thing is, P-38 is notoriously instabile aircraft if you have pressed into hammerhead and you do not have energy at the end of your climb (bandit is below).

You try to flip over aircraft at the end of 90? vertical climb, and the aircraft may just make one more flip if you are careless... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

It very hard to point *quickly* nose down and accelerate at the end of 90? climb, when P-38 nose is pointed at sky and aircraft have no energy.

faustnik
08-03-2005, 02:31 PM
That's a rough one AT. That Bf109G6AS can climb. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif We got it to work vs. the G2 when you and I tested, that was cool, but, the same tactic probably would have failed against the G6AS. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Let me look at the relative climbs and I'll get back to you. Also, the other issue with the P-38 is the lousy view down and to the sides. It is really to track a low target from an Fw190 but, really tough from a P-38.

Atomic_Marten
08-03-2005, 02:34 PM
Hey faustnik, G6AS can climb OK, but P-38LATE on 25% fuel will beat him in sustained climb IMO.

I will quickly check that out again...

Atomic_Marten
08-03-2005, 02:56 PM
It turns out that:

RoC
1. G6/AS 25%
2. G6/AS 50%
3. LATE 25% (quite even with G6/AS 50%)
4. G6/AS 100%
5. LATE 100% (much worse than G6/AS 100%)

faustnik
08-03-2005, 03:02 PM
Thanks for the tests A_M! So, a sustained climb for the P-38 against a G6AS looks like a bad idea. The problem with the P-38 zoom climb is pulling up with enough speed. It the P-38 gets really fast in a shallow dive, it will have to brake or use flaps to pull up and will loose a lot of speed. Once speed drops, the zoom climb is lost.

Where's Cuda? He should have some insight on this. I'll PM him.

Atomic_Marten
08-03-2005, 03:07 PM
I have also had some experience versus a good P-38LATE driver (me in G6/AS). I couldn't touch him.. he was in favourable position above me, I have done everything by the book and I have evaded all his attacks and shorten the distance but that is all I have succeded to do.
When he saw me gaining on him, he entered shallow dive and leaved me in his dust...
I was unable to catch him.

Yes, Cuda should know better than us about P-38...

VW-IceFire
08-03-2005, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
No doubt. But it shows that zoom climb is not a magical defensive meneuvre which will give you a free pass.
It is merely a temporary solution. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Exactly! The Fw190A in PF beats any Spitfire in a zoom climb no problem. Many Fw190 flyers don't believe this as they continue up in a sustained climb and get caught by the Spit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes exactly.

Dive, then zoom climb...then level off before the speed drops and then enter a shallow dive again. A Spitfire is hard pressed to follow that unless they have superior energy right from the start.

AerialTarget
08-03-2005, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
When he saw me gaining on him, he entered shallow dive and leaved me in his dust...

This is another problem I've always had. I can't outrun anything. Oh, yes, I know. The P-38 L "Late" can outrun anything in the game at top speed. But, I once timed the time it takes to get to that speed. I don't remember it exactly, but it's about three minutes at sea level!

Anyway, I've never been able to get away from a On Oh Nine. Shallow dive, steep dive, lowering propeller - nothing. I'm sure I could get away after a few minutes, but in the meantime they get a nice, long firing window for that blasted Mark One Oh Eight. Do you know, I've been killed by that thing at about a quarter mile?

One thing, Atomic Marten. Do you use the manual propeller pitch trick? You know, "RrrrrrRRRRRRRrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRrrrrrrRRRR RRRRR"?

Atomic_Marten
08-03-2005, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
No doubt. But it shows that zoom climb is not a magical defensive meneuvre which will give you a free pass.
It is merely a temporary solution. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Exactly! The Fw190A in PF beats any Spitfire in a zoom climb no problem. Many Fw190 flyers don't believe this as they continue up in a sustained climb and get caught by the Spit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes exactly.

Dive, then zoom climb...then level off before the speed drops and then enter a shallow dive again. A Spitfire is hard pressed to follow that unless they have superior energy right from the start. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I agree with IceFire... that's one of my classic manoeuvers when I am in such situations, I used that one the most. Sometimes even with level flight at the end without shallow dive.

Atomic_Marten
08-03-2005, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
When he saw me gaining on him, he entered shallow dive and leaved me in his dust...

This is another problem I've always had. I can't outrun anything. Oh, yes, I know. The P-38 L "Late" can outrun anything in the game at top speed. But, I once timed the time it takes to get to that speed. I don't remember it exactly, but it's about three minutes at sea level!

Anyway, I've never been able to get away from a On Oh Nine. Shallow dive, steep dive, lowering propeller - nothing. I'm sure I could get away after a few minutes, but in the meantime they get a nice, long firing window for that blasted Mark One Oh Eight. Do you know, I've been killed by that thing at about a quarter mile?

One thing, Atomic Marten. Do you use the manual propeller pitch trick? You know, "RrrrrrRRRRRRRrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRrrrrrrRRRR RRRRR"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, you can outrun G6/AS in LATE because I have saw that on my own eyes.
Initially I was gaining on him but later he was increasing the distance. All that on deck.

About man. prop.pitch, I use it but very very rarely.
It is simply to much risk for small bit of performance... for example enter 600kph IAS dive and engage man.pp few times shortly with 110% throttle and MW50.
Then if you engage it when your engine suddenly overheats, and you are still running MW50+110%, there is good probability that you will ruin engine.

I sometimes use man.pp in climb, especially sharp climbs which are ending in vertical 90? climb 'till my speed drop to 0kph.(usually for hammerhead or for fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). Also I switch to auto quickly when it reaches 3000rpm.

VF-29_Sandman
08-03-2005, 05:34 PM
mcguire prefered not to exceed 30 degree nose up on the zoom climb. then again, he wasnt facing fw's or 109's either, and he also had the 'dont go below 300 mph indicated'...1 of 2 cardinal rules he broke that got him shot down.

Atomic_Marten
08-03-2005, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by VF-29_Sandman:
mcguire prefered not to exceed 30 degree nose up on the zoom climb. then again, he wasnt facing fw's or 109's either, and he also had the 'dont go below 300 mph indicated'...1 of 2 cardinal rules he broke that got him shot down.

True. In fact most of the US pilots (and all aces) used to say that it isn't wise that speed drop below 250mph during combat.

Also didn't McGuire crashed in the jungle? I think he didn't get shot down. Will check that in book. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VF-29_Sandman
08-04-2005, 05:43 AM
if i remember a post awhile back, the japanese pilot that bagged him did manage to get a few rounds in his ship. but yea, he got into a low altitude stall with full drop tanks on from getting too slow and terra firma finished the job.

lets see, he broke 3 cardinal rules: 1: dont get below 300 indicated, 2: jettison tanks before a df, and 3: dont get low and slow with a zero.