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Woke_Up_Dead
10-09-2008, 01:20 PM
Hey everyone, thanks for all the good advice on the other threads I started here, I hope I can get some more good help on this one.

I'm finding 1946 quite a bit more difficult than the original IL2 Sturmovik which I have been flying regularly until a few weeks ago. I have been slowly overcoming most difficulties (offline; I'm still pretty hopeless online); I can now fly pretty hard without stalling even the stall-prone planes like the P-39, I can land damaged planes, I can maneuver well enough to keep or shake veteran-ace AI pilots off my tail. But the problem that persists (that I had even back in the original IL2) is with gunnery; it takes me forever to set up a good shot and when I get him in the right place I can't keep him there for long.

My offline run-ins with rookie or average AI pilots are particularly frustrating/funny; I get behind them pretty quickly and then spend the rest of the evening trying to finish them off. It's like watching a declawed, toothless, one eyed cat chasing a fat old mouse.

So besides "practice, practice, practice," is there any advice you can give me? Any particular type of practice? How about a joystick setup for someone who can fly well but can't shoot worth a damn? Right now I'm practicing by shooting at friendlies in QMB, I try to set up and shoot as quickly as possible.

dirkpit7
10-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Sounds completely normal. Shooting is one of the most difficult things to learn. Try to set up your joystick so that you can make very small corrections. Also learn to use the rudder to adjust your aim, it is very important and may get overlooked by a new player.

What planes are using to practice? You should use a plane that is a stable gun platform. Hurricane or IL-2 for example.

If shooting planes feels too difficult now, you could also try to shoot stationary ground targets.

b2spirita
10-09-2008, 02:15 PM
You can also set it to arcade, which shows where the bullets have hit, which can be useful in practicing things like deflection.

X32Wright
10-09-2008, 03:01 PM
I always advice the new rfecruits in our squad to always:

Shoot ahead of the nose of the enemy plane no matter what its ORIENTATION and always predict ahead of its NOSE and SHOOT there.

If you can hit ahead of the nose it means ur hitting the fuselage and possibly wings too!

crucislancer
10-09-2008, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
Hey everyone, thanks for all the good advice on the other threads I started here, I hope I can get some more good help on this one.

I'm finding 1946 quite a bit more difficult than the original IL2 Sturmovik which I have been flying regularly until a few weeks ago. I have been slowly overcoming most difficulties (offline; I'm still pretty hopeless online); I can now fly pretty hard without stalling even the stall-prone planes like the P-39, I can land damaged planes, I can maneuver well enough to keep or shake veteran-ace AI pilots off my tail. But the problem that persists (that I had even back in the original IL2) is with gunnery; it takes me forever to set up a good shot and when I get him in the right place I can't keep him there for long.

My offline run-ins with rookie or average AI pilots are particularly frustrating/funny; I get behind them pretty quickly and then spend the rest of the evening trying to finish them off. It's like watching a declawed, toothless, one eyed cat chasing a fat old mouse.

So besides "practice, practice, practice," is there any advice you can give me? Any particular type of practice? How about a joystick setup for someone who can fly well but can't shoot worth a damn? Right now I'm practicing by shooting at friendlies in QMB, I try to set up and shoot as quickly as possible.

Dirkpit has it right, gunnery is the hardest thing to learn in the game.

What kind of joystick setup do you have?

I find that trim is very helpful for me with gunnery. If set up correctly, you can adjust your trim very precisely, making small corrections in order to get the correct deflection.

Also, learn how your gunsight works, being able to judge the accurate distance and angle of your target works wonders. I'm no pro at it, but with certain planes that I fly regularly I've gotten pretty good at figuring out the best place and time to fire.

Make sure that you are firing near your convergence range. I found that when I first started playing, I left mine at the default of 500 meters, and as time went on and I became more comfortable, it gradually lowered to 200 meters. The closer the better, for the most part, but whatever's comfortable for you.

I like to do short burst with my full compliment of guns, and aim for critical components: Engine, wing root, cockpit. Certain planes are more prone to certain kinds of damage then others. It's fully possible to shoot down a 109 with a P-51B if you know where to hit him, and with just a short burst.

Squeeze the trigger, don't jerk it. That was my #1 cause of missing aircraft right in front of me until I realized what I was doing.

Straight 6 O'Clock shots aren't so great unless you are in a plane with a lot of firepower, like a Fw190. Try to have a slight deflection so that your shots hit the engine, cockpit or wing root, rather then chewing away at the rudder,elevators, and fusilage.

Of course, continue to practice. It may take some time before it just falls into place and you see a difference. When I first started playing IL-2, I worked on that 109 campaign that came with the original game. At first, I would get no kills or perhaps one in a blue moon, but by the end of the campaign I had racked up quite a few.

I hope some of this is helpful. There is a lot of good advise on this forum, from asking and searching. Good hunting!

Boosher
10-09-2008, 03:10 PM
Here's what I do to practice my gunnery:

Set yourself up in a J8A or Cr.42 in the QMB. Standard armament. Make your enemies 3 U-2VS. Set your altitude at 300-400 meters, give yourself the advantageous position. Neg on the AAA. Try to take out all three aircraft without using your entire ammo load and without getting shot. It requires precise gunnery and management of your engine's torque.

TinyTim
10-09-2008, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
It's like watching a declawed, toothless, one eyed cat chasing a fat old mouse.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Anyway, guys shared some good tips! So I'll just throw some short ones in:

1. At the beginning, try shooting friendly planes down - they don't maneouver to evade your attack. Ironically this is much closer to many real life shoot downs in WW2 than what you get if you attack enemy. Just set a flight of friendly fighters in QMB, put some historic skins on them, and not to kill the immersion too much, switch frequency to enemy. Once you'll be able to consistently and reliably shoot at straight flying non-maneouvering target from different approach angles go and change to enemy.

2. When maneouvering, instead to place the crosshair infront of the plane try to predict his maneouvering and "wait" for him to cross your crosshair. Before he does, squeeze the trigger.

3. Record the track, review from all possible angles.

4. In config.ini (or is it conf.ini) switch arcade=0 to arcade=1. This should give you graphic cue if and where your bullets hit.

Stingray333
10-09-2008, 04:04 PM
To shoot well you first must be flying well, properly trimmed and in coordinated flight. Then work on getting yourself into good firing solutions: i.e. setting yourself up for a good shot, (i.e. a good gunnery solution), where you get lots of bullets on the target rather than just spraying bullets across the target with the odd hit (such as the case with high angle-off-tail snapshots,etc)

I think that a good exercise is to set yourself up in the quick mission builder with a plane with machine guns, such as the 109, and work on getting consistent hits with the machine gun, i.e. rather than just getting the odd hit by spraying bullets all over the target, work on seeing the bullet impacts for an extended period of time by tracking the target, and helps you learn to keep your lead and to keep tracking the target.

I think that just loading up the quick mission builder with a plane with a huge cannon and unlimted ammo and blowing hundreds of AI planes out of the sky only results in limited gunnery practice, as it develops the mentality of getting into the first available firing position and delivering that "one" devastating cannon hit to finish the plane off, rather than working on the fundamentals of getting into a well established position of advantaged, acquiring a good gunnery solution, and then tracking the target and leading well. Remember, the goal here is to practice and develop technique, not to see how many AI planes you can shoot down in an hour with a cannon and unlimited ammo.

Once you are good at tracking shots and keeping the lead on the target with the machine gun, you will be absolutely devastating with the cannon. Whereas if you practice only by using the cannon, and have relied on the spray-n-pray approach where you rely on the shear devastating power of the cannon and larger guns, your hit percentage will be relatively low, you won't be training yourself to get into better firing positions.

By working on this, it is surprising how effective the "pea shooter" machine guns can be. Sure they are pretty ineffective if you are sitting on a planes 6 o'clock and only getting a few hits. But if you can get a sustained tracking shot along the fuselage, engine and cockpit you can bring down fighters quite quickly with only the lowly machine gun, and, you are developing lethal firing skills, that once you change that machine gun in for a cannon, it will only take a few rounds to deliver that fatal attack to an opponent.

I am not trying to say that practicing snap-shots is bad, or anything like that. I just think that by working with the machine gun, working on getting into better firing positions and working on tracking develops a good feel for lead/deflection shooting.

Stingray

WTE_Galway
10-09-2008, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
It's like watching a declawed, toothless, one eyed cat chasing a fat old mouse.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Anyway, guys shared some good tips! So I'll just throw some short ones in:

1. At the beginning, try shooting friendly planes down - they don't maneouver to evade your attack. Ironically this is much closer to many real life shoot downs in WW2 than what you get if you attack enemy. Just set a flight of friendly fighters in QMB, put some historic skins on them, and not to kill the immersion too much, switch frequency to enemy. Once you'll be able to consistently and reliably shoot at straight flying non-maneouvering target from different approach angles go and change to enemy.

2. When maneouvering, instead to place the crosshair infront of the plane try to predict his maneouvering and "wait" for him to cross your crosshair. Before he does, squeeze the trigger.

3. Record the track, review from all possible angles.

4. In config.ini (or is it conf.ini) switch arcade=0 to arcade=1. This should give you graphic cue if and where your bullets hit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1 on the QMB

but start out in QMB at one quarter speed

once you can hit at quarter speed up it to half speed, then full speed and then eventually practice at double speed


--- one other thing you need to center the ball/slip-needle or your gun sight will be way out of whack

M_Gunz
10-09-2008, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Stingray333:
To shoot well you first must be flying well, properly trimmed and in coordinated flight.

Big +1 on the coordinated flight!

Major changes in the IL2 series were CEM introduced in 2.0 (FB) and the need to really use the
rudder to keep the ball centered in 4.0 and the stick handling changes of 4.07 (1946).

Woke_Up, do you know and understand about The Ball and Slip?

P.FunkAdelic
10-10-2008, 12:47 AM
I feel that I can make an observation, despite my lack of experience, just because I've been learning to shoot and still am.

The topic starter said he had trouble keeping the enemy in the right place to shoot. Well its my experience that in any sensible situation where you are engaging a target, be it a surprise bounce or a sustained turn fight, the target won't be and shouldn't be in your crosshairs for more than a second or two.

I've been doing almost all my online flying against human beings in the Boom and Zoom style. Fly high over him, dive hard and take a quick shot on him and then zoom climb to altitude and try again. The whole design of the tactic, starting high and diving for a shot and re-climbing with the accumulated speed, demands that you only get a half second to shoot him, unless you want to blow your ability to regain the height advantage by dropping your speed for a more sustained shot or elaborate maneuver to reposition on his six. Losing alt and speed seems ridiculous for a few extra seconds to shoot and if he turns better then you might be dead if you miss.

In a turn or stall fight the whole point of the affair is to keep him off your six while positioning to his. Nobody is gonna sit still, or fly straight. Even if you have the advantage and know you will kill him eventually he will dodge and weave to avoid death even if he has to dive harder. In that scenario you aren't likely to get a shot that will last for more than a second either.

Point is that shooting isn't about getting off a long volley. Its not ancient warfare where the skirmishers would harry the infantry repeatedly. You get your shot, you separate or you maneuver for another. The point of practice it seems to me is to be able to get him with that one quick shot or be able to wear him down after a few repeated shots. Anticipation of your shot is more important than the shot itself. Soon as I got a better feeling for how fast I was closing and for where he'd be moving when I was in gun range I could get closer and better hits.

Also it should be mentioned that if you are closing at a faster speed that you should fire farther away than your convergence distance cause by the time your bullets get there (they move faster because its the round velocity plus your speed) he'll be closer and the convergence won't be as effective.

Long post for being a noob myself. Hope it made sense, and if it didn't then I guess I need a lesson too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

M_Gunz
10-10-2008, 02:10 AM
For gunnery practice:
Use NotePad to edit CONF.INI. Under the [game] line, edit or add Arcade=1 instead of 0.
When you make a hit, a white dot will show it.

Note how long between the shot and the hit, the timing for your gun, range and closure rate.
Do this often to get a feel for distances and how shots move across them. It's important if
you want to shoot other than from close six. Once you have the movement of the shots down
you no longer need to hold the sights on or ahead of the target. You can let your plane move
naturally to get the target to cross your line of vision towards the pipper and fire a stream
ahead to cut into it. A very short stream with practice, you don't want to fire so much
ahead that he has time to turn.

It's very important to keep the ball centered and stay out of slip. Firing in slip, the shots
will not go where the sights point.

Lastly, when firing up or down slope, your shots will go high either way. The sights are
set with horizontal firing and gravity affecting the trajectory fully in mind. Firing up
or down steeply, gravity has less of an effect perpendicular to the sight line. Check it
out when reviewing a track some time -- and be sure to review tracks made during practice
through playback to see just where your shots go, this is invaluable. You won't just know
that you missed but can tie the sight picture and flight conditions with how far and to
what side you did miss. Knowing what does not work is about as good as knowing what does.

kingtiger2008
10-10-2008, 03:56 AM
i think if you want to be a good shooter then the very first thing you need is a good input setting. Work hard with your joystick to find the setting that suit you, and you'll shoot better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .

Jex_TE
10-10-2008, 07:59 AM
I have a question on trimming - some of you are saying to get your plane trimmed out yet won't it need trimming again as you manouvre? Or do you just set it up initially and just leave it? At the moment I have this picture of you guys frantically reaching for trim tabs as you dogfight lol

crucislancer
10-10-2008, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Jex_TE:
I have a question on trimming - some of you are saying to get your plane trimmed out yet won't it need trimming again as you manouvre? Or do you just set it up initially and just leave it? At the moment I have this picture of you guys frantically reaching for trim tabs as you dogfight lol

Being able to adjust trim while in combat seems like a chore, but after a while you get so used to it that it's almost a sub-conscious act.

I have my trim controls (elevator and rudder) on the two rotary controls on the X52 throttle. Before that I had them set up on the arrow keys on the keyboard.

M_Gunz
10-10-2008, 08:53 AM
Oh yah. Trim is like steering, seems it's never done till you've landed.

Waldo.Pepper
10-10-2008, 01:20 PM
My 2 cents.

I think that practicing that way you are doing, and the way some are suggesting is to be setting yourself up for failure.

You said something like, "I can get behind them and when I blast away I miss."

Your goal should not be to replicate this situation. No one will let you get behind them. Park yourself there, and blaze away.

If, your ultimate goal is to get good online (like I think you mentioned). Then practicing this way is a prescription for failure. Why? Because this situation (getting behind someone for an extended period of time) is so rare to be discounted.

I think that you should be practicing a high speed pass.

Try the following.

Pick your favorite plane.
Find out its max speed during some test flights. Straight and level with no one around.
Now put it in a dive in which you loose about a 1000m or so. (Note the speed near the end of the dive. Should be pretty high!)
Shoot, at that "pretty high speed." (Quick squeeze of the trigger only! Brrrp. Like that.
Note how straight the bullets fly.
No wobble - no spray and pray. No wasting of ammo. (Also greater safety for yourself.)

It is easier to predict your fall of rounds at ludicrously high speeds. Also they do more damage.

Kill people like that.
Practice this type of attack on the QMB against DC-3 and such.
When you can kill those big juicy targets at will switch to smaller and smaller targets. And then maneuvering fighters toward the end of such training.

My 2 cents. Good luck.

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-10-2008, 02:30 PM
This should help you out. http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_312a.html

S!

crucislancer
10-10-2008, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
This should help you out. http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_312a.html

S!

Oh, that's a great article! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://www.darts-page.com/

Check out the tutorial movie regarding using the gunsight. It helped out quite a bit, along with the skip-bombing one.

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-10-2008, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by crucislancer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
This should help you out. http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_312a.html

S!

Oh, that's a great article! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://www.darts-page.com/

Check out the tutorial movie regarding using the gunsight. It helped out quite a bit, along with the skip-bombing one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heck I been flying this sim since 01 and honestly I have a good hit% but I still learned quite a bit from Dart's tutorial. Must read/see..be sure.

S!

HayateAce
10-10-2008, 02:58 PM
In short:

1 - Do quick missions, shooting at friendlies, ammo set to unlimited

2 - trim your aircraft so that the nose slowly falls if you let go of the stick. Pulling up for a shot is much more natural than pushing the stick forward to shoot. Trying to shoot at neutral trim is even more awful.

3 - Use a Hurricane with 12 .303's. Lots of sparkly feedback to feed your frail fighter pilot ego

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Woke_Up_Dead
10-10-2008, 04:11 PM
Thanks so far. Somebody asked me about my joystick, it's a Microsoft Force Feedback 2. Trigger, hat, plus three buttons on the stick, then four buttons plus a throttle at the side of the stick. I recently started to use the mouse wheel for elevator trim. Don't really feel like investing in more or better equipment right now; besides, I don't think it's the equipment that's holding me back yet.

I have a general idea about the ball and slip, though I don't see how not having the ball centered throws off the gun-sight accuracy.

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-10-2008, 05:14 PM
I have a general idea about the ball and slip, though I don't see how not having the ball centered throws off the gun-sight accuracy.

I dont think its critical to have the ball centered for gunnery but it will certainly have an effect for a less experienced flier. If the ball is not centered you are slide slipping through the air a bit and this will throw off your accuracy if you do not compensate for it with lead.

S!

M_Gunz
10-10-2008, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
I have a general idea about the ball and slip, though I don't see how not having the ball centered throws off the gun-sight accuracy.

Not having the ball centered means you're not pointing in the direction you're going while moving.
That means the bullets come out of the gun with a sideways motion component to where the
gun was pointing. It may be a very small component but over distance this multiplies.

If the target is moving by the same difference then you may hit anyway since he won't be
where the sight was pointing when you shot either. So you can track a target while in slip
and hit it anyway.

Consider as well that the ball only tells you if your plane is pointing where it's going in
yaw. Fly very slow and you have to pitch the nose up to keep the plane up, you then have a
small vertical "slip" to correct for if you want to snipe long range. It's just another one
of those things that can put your shots just a bit under the target, shooting inside or
beyond convergence being another factor along the same axis.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flying in slip means:

> Your plane is not pointing where it's going.
> Your plane is making extra drag.
> Your prop thrust is not pulling straight, some is wasted.
> Your guns are not pointing where you are going.

I.e. In slip you're slower and your aim is off.

5 out of 10 gamers blame the FM and DM, just judging from 7 years of forum posts.

M_Gunz
10-10-2008, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
[I dont think its critical to have the ball centered for gunnery but it will certainly have an effect for a less experienced flier. If the ball is not centered you are slide slipping through the air a bit and this will throw off your accuracy if you do not compensate for it with lead.

S!

It depends on the relative motion of the target. If he is going directly away then you want
sort of the opposite of lead. Your shots will carry opposite to your slip.

It matters very little at close ranges and small slip angles. Like half a meter, usually less.
OTOH consider the fuselage may be 1 meter wide, this is where shooting from deflection becomes
a real advantage.

Woke_Up_Dead
10-11-2008, 01:35 AM
P.FunkAdelic (great musical nickname, btw), you are right, long volleys are rare in this game especially online. But they do happen once in a blue moon, and the fact that I can't keep steady long enough to hit those juicy targets is a symptom of poor gunnery in general I think. Once I get that down, I can move on to the more difficult shots.

P.FunkAdelic
10-11-2008, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
P.FunkAdelic (great musical nickname, btw), you are right, long volleys are rare in this game especially online. But they do happen once in a blue moon, and the fact that I can't keep steady long enough to hit those juicy targets is a symptom of poor gunnery in general I think. Once I get that down, I can move on to the more difficult shots.
Ah, then you definitely need to tweak the sensitivity of your stick. Some advanced pilots actually say they use trim to pull up gently and correct their aim, minute trim adjustments being significantly less jerky than clumsy hands on a stick.

I'd say that maybe you need to go back and practice level flight in and of itself. Took me more than a few hours to get my flight straight, level, and my adjustments to attitude, however minor and fine, not jerky.

As for understanding the Slip Skid concept for me it works to imagine a long line drawn from the tip of the nose of the aircraft to the tip of the tail (all this in the centre) extending from one horizon to the other front and back. This line represents the direction the plane is travelling. However in a slip or skid the nose is not lined up with the line that runs through the centre of the aircraft. This Yawing effect rotates on another line that goes from the centre of the aircraft (the point where it pivots anyhow, depends on the aircraft design and such I think) at the top through the bottom like a skewer (think of kebabs). This is where it yaws.

To visualize something familiar think of a car on an icy road losing traction. It continues to go in a straight line but the nose of the car SKIDS (theres that key word) off of the axis of forward movement. So imagine a nose mounted cannon in this car firing. Those rounds wouldn't hit where you think you're pointing.

The 'slip stick' as I first heard it named tells you which way your nose is pointing relative to the forward motion of the aircraft. Whether or not you're sliding on the ice in a straight line. "Standing on the ball" is just like someone trying to correct for that skid on the ice.

Hope that made sense.

M_Gunz
10-11-2008, 03:48 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

For one thing, a slip-stick is a slide rule, ie a mechanical calculator that uses logarithms.

For another, if the nose of your plane is pointed to say the right of your path then the ball
will swing off to the left which is why you need left rudder to straighten up.

Slip/Yaw string article. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_string)

Why you don't normally want to fly in slip. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_flight)

It should be noted that if you stall while in slip then you will spin. No slip, no spin.
Learn not to fly in slip except on purpose then learn when to use slip for a purpose.

It's flying in slip without knowing it and the consequences that's stupid-to-dangerous practice,
but don't mark everyone flying in slip as stupid or dangerous. It will be clear in time if
it isn't right now -- intentional slip has at least two uses in combat, so a pilot using slip
may actually be dangerous, but that's to his opponent.