PDA

View Full Version : Three IL2 FB questions for you experts



Karkadann
11-08-2004, 08:10 AM
I am curious about how to 'properly' take off

I have been mostly flying the La-5 and have flown a couple of missions with the IL2 (the last model, with the 37mm cannons - M3?)

I can take off without serious problems - I start by locking the tail wheel, dropping the flaps to take off position, hitting the wheel brake (although that isn't usually an issue, it helps in a thunderstorm! oy!) and starting the engine

When my turn comes to start the roll down the runway, I push down on the joystick so I'll get level flight sooner, and I give throttle - which is where the question begins

I have tried a few different things, from keeping the wheelbrake on and giving about 50% throttle until the engine spins up, then releasing it (which doesn't quite seem to be a great idea) and I have tried starting with very little throttle (and no wheelbrake) to get the plane rolling slowly, then increasing throttle as I roll down the runway

In both instances, the rudder comes into play to keep the plane straight - and I realize that this will vary with the plane, but I was hoping someone could generalize for me - I did a search in the forum but didn't find my answer (although it may be buried but don't want to spend hours searching)

The question: Should I be starting with little throttle and let the plane start rolling, and slowly bring up the throttle (and how fast do I do so?), or should I be starting with more throttle, and kicking up to full throttle very early in the roll? I think too much throttle will induce too much torque spin, so I can see how applying less at the start to get rolling, then adding slowly is better, but how much to add when?

I know - there is no 'simple' answer, since this varies with aircraft size, engine power, takeoff weight, but I was hoping there is some general theory I am just missing.

Question #2 is a simple one

If I start with a certain plane in campaign mode, am I stuck with that plane through the entire campaign, or is it possible to upgrade to a newer plane as time goes on? Lets say I start with the very first version of the IL2, in 1941, for example - side note, I guess this depends on how long the campaigns last, and since I haven't done a full campaign, I don't know if they go the entire length of the war or only for a year or so, or ? - so if I start with the first version of the IL2, can I upgrade once the second one becomes available, as it did historically?

Question #3 is for anyone who uses rotary controls on a HOTAS - I have an X45 and have set elevator trim to my thumb rotary, since I have found it to be the most important, but I am wondering which is more important when comparing rudder trim and aileron trim - or are they equally important? I only have two rotaries, and have currently assigned rudder trim to the top rotary, and have set aileron trim to my #2 POV hat (on the joystick), because I haven't seen much (if any) difference when adjusting aileron trim - maybe I'm not seeing the difference when adjusting aileron trim because my controls are messed up - ie, I may have set up some commands incorrectly, but I am pretty sure I left aileron trim default - I will have to check to be sure, but when I use the key combinations, or the POV hat as mapped to those key combinations, I really haven't noticed any different when using aileron trim - so that is why I have rudder trim on the top rotary

So is aileron trim barely noticeable or should I be seeing big changes in roll when making changes in trim?

I can set the plane to fly level based on elevator trim, and set the rudder trim to almost completely nullify torque spin, but there is still the roll, and I am really not seeing a difference... (maybe I'm just doing something wrong?)

Karkadann
11-08-2004, 08:10 AM
I am curious about how to 'properly' take off

I have been mostly flying the La-5 and have flown a couple of missions with the IL2 (the last model, with the 37mm cannons - M3?)

I can take off without serious problems - I start by locking the tail wheel, dropping the flaps to take off position, hitting the wheel brake (although that isn't usually an issue, it helps in a thunderstorm! oy!) and starting the engine

When my turn comes to start the roll down the runway, I push down on the joystick so I'll get level flight sooner, and I give throttle - which is where the question begins

I have tried a few different things, from keeping the wheelbrake on and giving about 50% throttle until the engine spins up, then releasing it (which doesn't quite seem to be a great idea) and I have tried starting with very little throttle (and no wheelbrake) to get the plane rolling slowly, then increasing throttle as I roll down the runway

In both instances, the rudder comes into play to keep the plane straight - and I realize that this will vary with the plane, but I was hoping someone could generalize for me - I did a search in the forum but didn't find my answer (although it may be buried but don't want to spend hours searching)

The question: Should I be starting with little throttle and let the plane start rolling, and slowly bring up the throttle (and how fast do I do so?), or should I be starting with more throttle, and kicking up to full throttle very early in the roll? I think too much throttle will induce too much torque spin, so I can see how applying less at the start to get rolling, then adding slowly is better, but how much to add when?

I know - there is no 'simple' answer, since this varies with aircraft size, engine power, takeoff weight, but I was hoping there is some general theory I am just missing.

Question #2 is a simple one

If I start with a certain plane in campaign mode, am I stuck with that plane through the entire campaign, or is it possible to upgrade to a newer plane as time goes on? Lets say I start with the very first version of the IL2, in 1941, for example - side note, I guess this depends on how long the campaigns last, and since I haven't done a full campaign, I don't know if they go the entire length of the war or only for a year or so, or ? - so if I start with the first version of the IL2, can I upgrade once the second one becomes available, as it did historically?

Question #3 is for anyone who uses rotary controls on a HOTAS - I have an X45 and have set elevator trim to my thumb rotary, since I have found it to be the most important, but I am wondering which is more important when comparing rudder trim and aileron trim - or are they equally important? I only have two rotaries, and have currently assigned rudder trim to the top rotary, and have set aileron trim to my #2 POV hat (on the joystick), because I haven't seen much (if any) difference when adjusting aileron trim - maybe I'm not seeing the difference when adjusting aileron trim because my controls are messed up - ie, I may have set up some commands incorrectly, but I am pretty sure I left aileron trim default - I will have to check to be sure, but when I use the key combinations, or the POV hat as mapped to those key combinations, I really haven't noticed any different when using aileron trim - so that is why I have rudder trim on the top rotary

So is aileron trim barely noticeable or should I be seeing big changes in roll when making changes in trim?

I can set the plane to fly level based on elevator trim, and set the rudder trim to almost completely nullify torque spin, but there is still the roll, and I am really not seeing a difference... (maybe I'm just doing something wrong?)

georgeo76
11-08-2004, 08:31 AM
Taking off: First, give plenty of positive elevator trim. It's best to start by slowly engaging throttle till you reach 100% w/o using the brake. You want to increase the throttle slowly, but steadily. As you power up, the yaw will increase, use the rudder to compensate, being careful not to over compensate. When you reach about 100kmph or about 60mph push forward gently on the stick to get your tail wheel up. You should then relax the stick as the horizontal stabilizers gain lift and keep the tail up for you. All you have to do @ this point is keep going straight as the trim you applied earlier lifts you smoothly in the air.

The more experienced you get, the faster you can apply throttle, until you get good enough to hold the brake, apply full throttle and release to take off like a rocket. The danger is yaw. It's very common to overcompensate and swing wildly out of control when you apply lot's of power quickly. By throttling up slowly, you give yourself more time to get a feel for proper rudder control

Yes, You'll get new AC as the war goes on, but be patient, there are loads of missions between upgrades.

Your right, elevator trim is most important followed by rudder, then aileron. On my X45, I use one rotary for elevator trim, and one for prop pitch. I use buttons for elevator and rudder trim.

Tully__
11-08-2004, 08:36 AM
1. In the game, run the throttle straight up to 100% at the start of the roll in everything except the jets. Don't bother with the brakes and unless you're carrying a full fuel & bomb load don't bother with the flaps. Use the whole length of the runway and smoothly lift off just before the end.

In real life there are quite a few propellor fighter aircraft that have enough torque to flip or ground loop if you apply full power at a standstill, but even on them takeoff power is around 70-80% and is applied straight away.

The jets will catch fire or flame out if you run the throttle up too quickly, for them you have to set the brake and ease it up until the brake starts creeping. Once you start to creep let go of the brake but don't jam the throttle until you have over 80% and the turbine has caught up to the throttle setting (the engine note has stopped climbing).

2. When you start a campaign you have a selection of aircraft and years. If you click on each of the aircraft you'll get a drop down list of aircraft in use at that stage of the war. Select an aicraft for each stage, then highlight the stage of the war where you wish to begin the campaign. As you progress to each new stage you'll get the aircraft you selected for that stage.

3. Some aircraft have no trim controls (Bi-1, I-16...), some have only elevator (most of the German fighters) and some have only elevator & rudder (the one you've been flying judging by your comments about aileron trim above). I'd recommend leaving elevator trim where it is and assigning something like prop pitch to the other rotary, reverting to keyboard control for rudder and aileron trim.

ELEM
11-08-2004, 08:44 AM
Q2 additional.

You can also add more a/c to your campaigns that are not normally available. It's explained how to do it in this thread...

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=752106344&r=922108344#922108344

Karkadann
11-08-2004, 09:24 AM
Thanks guys

I will switch prop pitch to the second rotary (but I will be putting rudder trim on the POV hat - can't stand having to reach for the keyboard!)

I didn't bother with it because I am not currently using complex engine management (that is where prop pitch comes into play, yes, or no?)

Another question then, about rudder settings

I have my rudder settings set to default, but I have to be very careful about giving too much at the start, because using the left hand fingertips is not as easy as rudder pedals would make it - it is workable, but I am looking at changing the rudder numbers

These are my settings - not sure which is rudder, but I'd guess it is Z (unless that's throttle?) - I'd be changing it in game anyway so that's not critical, but I am not sure where to go to make it smoother, but not lose too much overall control

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 0 5 10 17 26 37 50 64 81 100 0
1Y=0 0 5 10 17 26 37 50 64 81 100 0
1RX=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ=0 0 5 10 17 26 37 50 64 81 100 0
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

I have thought about using these settings for the rudder:

0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100

Does that seem reasonable for you X45 users?

I've tried the recommendations I've seen by other users in other threads but they all seem to give too much play in the low end, since I don't have the same control of the rudder because I'm just using my fingertips to control it

Oh, and thanks btw - I hadn't thought about the fact that the La-5 and IL2 might not have aileron trim!

Another q: I don't see the bombs on the IL2, even though I obviously have them - have been carrying 4 and didn't even know it until my flight leader dropped his - is that a bug? Or are they hidden inside the plane?

PS flew an awesome mission last night in the IL2 - my flight took out our designated target group, then they turned and went home - I took out a train (to which I flew too close and ended up seriously damaging my wings, tail, and fuselage when it blew up LoL) and then took out some cars on another train, and found a couple of flak cannons all by themselves, and took them both out with my 37mm cannon, then found a group of enemy vehicles stopped on the edge of a forest, with a huge clear space on the other side - my flight was long gone, but there were no enemy aircraft around, so I kept circling and taking out one vehicle at a time - small controlled bursts allowed me precision (no recoil absorption means I can't fire long bursts) - I took out 5 or 6 vehicles and proceeded to target one of the last ones - I came in at the same angle as the other attacks, and was lined up, firing (in gunsight (zoom) view) and the tank was about to blow up when I went kaboom

It seems I hit the treetops - I was positive I wasn't low enough to hit the trees, since I didn't see them in the zoom, but I guess I must have been wrong - sad to blow a mission like that, just because I didn't see the height of the trees!

Edit:
How did you set your prop pitch to your rotary? Can you just select the control and move the axis, or did you have to code it in the profiler?

Tully__
11-08-2004, 10:01 AM
1X is roll axis
1Y is pitch axis
1RZ is rudder axis

Click the "Joysticks & FB" link under my sig for a lot of information on setting up joysticks & adjusting sensitvity. You'll also find my settings (The Author) in the sensitivity setting section.

To set pitch, scroll all the way to the bottom of the control assignment screen in the game to the section under the "HOTAS CONTROL" heading. There you'll find all the possible direct assignments for axis/slider/rotary.

Karkadann
11-08-2004, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
1X is roll axis
1Y is pitch axis
1RZ is rudder axis

Click the "Joysticks & FB" link under my sig for a lot of information on setting up joysticks & adjusting sensitvity. You'll also find my settings (The Author) in the sensitivity setting section.

To set pitch, scroll all the way to the bottom of the control assignment screen in the game to the section under the "HOTAS CONTROL" heading. There you'll find all the possible direct assignments for axis/slider/rotary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Tully, yours were the settings I was talking about

I tried your recommended settings for rudder but found too much rudder on the low end - I have a hard time getting just the right amount of rudder at takeoff - will have to play with it a bit

Changed my controls so rudder trim is on POV hat #2 in mode 1, and aileron trim is on that same hat in mode 3 (I use mode 2 for takeoff/landing controls, since it is easier to flip back and forth between mode 1 and 3 when flying, esp in combat) so the only time I go to mode 2 is when I have time; when taking off and landing

Modes 1 & 3 are for general flight and combat

works quite well IMO

emailed Saitek with my profile - missing a few things though - no option to talk, for online gaming, although that could be easily fixed, and no complex engine management controls, but again, that's only because I haven't yet used it

Tully__
11-08-2004, 11:33 AM
What game and patch are you flying? If it's Sturmovik 1.04 or later, you've put the settings in the wrong place. Roll, Pitch & Yaw are 1X, 1Y and 1RZ, not X, Y and RZ for all game version Sturmovik 1.04 or later.

Stiglr
11-08-2004, 12:24 PM
Don't even think about "realistic" takeoff procedure in IL-2. Because there is nothing realistic about it in this sim.

The fact that you can successfully take off by gunning the throttle to 100% in ANY plane is proof positive that it's been dumbed down.

Torque is non-existant (except for the eye candy effect you get when you start the engine and the wing dips; ooooo, so authentic!!). It's the engine torque that would groundloop a majority of the planes in this sim if you ran up the engine so carelessly.

Your first description of how to take off in the game (floor the throttle, stick down until the tail lifts, reach rotation speed and gently pull back on the stick) will almost always work. But not so in real life, where you would have had to spool up the throttle much more gradually and use opposite torque rudder to keep a straight line until your tail lifted up.

ELEM
11-08-2004, 12:42 PM
The Il-2 carries an external and internal bombload. The bombbay doors are set close inboard the wing and open and close automaticaly. Watch them from external view. The doors are left off when you carry the PTAB anti-tank bomblets.

Karkadann
11-08-2004, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
What game and patch are you flying? If it's Sturmovik 1.04 or later, you've put the settings in the wrong place. Roll, Pitch & Yaw are 1X, 1Y and 1RZ, not X, Y and RZ for all game version Sturmovik 1.04 or later. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am flying IL2 FB, with the latest patch 1.22

I didn't set those settings in the file manually, I set them in game, and they are right - I only copied and pasted the settings to show what mine were

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Don't even think about "realistic" takeoff procedure in IL-2. Because there is nothing realistic about it in this sim.

The fact that you can successfully take off by gunning the throttle to 100% in ANY plane is proof positive that it's been dumbed down.

Torque is non-existant (except for the eye candy effect you get when you start the engine and the wing dips; ooooo, so authentic!!). It's the engine torque that would groundloop a majority of the planes in this sim if you ran up the engine so carelessly.

Your first description of how to take off in the game (floor the throttle, stick down until the tail lifts, reach rotation speed and gently pull back on the stick) will almost always work. But not so in real life, where you would have had to spool up the throttle much more gradually and use opposite torque rudder to keep a straight line until your tail lifted up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't saying I was holding it down and going full throttle - I was starting with about 20%, upping to about 35 or 40%, then as the plane started rolling, I would give it more as I gained speed (once the engine tone stopped climbing so I'd know it was matched with the power setting), so it was pretty gradual

Maybe I'm just misinterpreting it, but I have to constantly adjust rudder all the way down the runway, otherwise my La-5 wants to go off the left of the runway - I interpreted that as torque - and I don't like the idea of going full throttle - I like the idea of using take off flaps, giving throttle to start rolling, and adjusting trim to the max positive setting, then bringing up the throttle gradually, adjusting rudder as necessary - to me, that seems like it would be realistic, but I don't know for sure, since I have never piloted anything other than virtual aircraft...

PS Thanks ELEM, I will check it out next flight

WTE_Galway
11-08-2004, 03:26 PM
couple of points here


1) while it is convenient to talk of "torque" the tendency to yaw on take off is the composite of a large number of effects including:
- spiral prop wash around the fuselage hitting the rudder (this is the biggie)
- torque causing one wheel to dig into the runway harder
- issues with different angle of attack of ascending and descending prop blades

2) pilot accounts of the actual aircraft regularly mention needing full rudder on take-off in at least a few of the planes in FB. The original IL2 had far more yaw on takeoff and also in flight but this has been toned down substantially.



in terms of real aircraft .. applying partial throttle on a training aircraft like a 152 will get a severe clout up the side of the head from your instructor and may even get you killed .. throttle to the firewall check for green on the engine gauges and let her rip is the rule in your normal light single

Stiglr
11-08-2004, 08:43 PM
Karka, what I'm saying is, in FB you can just firewall the throttle and take off. It's not necessary to apply very much, if any, rudder when I do it in a 109, and as you roll down the strip, rudder to one side is as effective as the other (which is patently wrong). That's what's so ridiculous about it.