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potver
02-16-2008, 02:49 PM
I saw it several times, the plane I persued went up, reversed in a second and dives down?!?
Is it an Ai manouvre which isn,t really doable?
Thanks in advance.

gizmo60
02-16-2008, 03:04 PM
hammerhead ?

VF-17_Jolly
02-16-2008, 03:04 PM
Hammerhead or stall turn

VW-IceFire
02-16-2008, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by potver:
I saw it several times, the plane I persued went up, reversed in a second and dives down?!?
Is it an Ai manouvre which isn,t really doable?
Thanks in advance.
Everything the AI can do you can do as well. They are just well practiced http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Not 100% sure what you're seeing but it doesn't sound all that out of the ordinary. I'm not actually sure what advantage is conveying to the pursued fighter either...

potver
02-16-2008, 04:08 PM
My hammerhead is not so quick as he can do it
because the lack of speed at the end of the climb and he wins some distance, although he,s vulnerable for some hits.
Concerning being able to do the same manouvres as the AI, I never succeeded in descending the Bf-109 with 140 kmh!

SeaFireLIV
02-16-2008, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by potver:
My hammerhead is not so quick as he can do it
because the lack of speed at the end of the climb and he wins some distance, although he,s vulnerable for some hits.
Concerning being able to do the same manouvres as the AI, I never succeeded in descending the Bf-109 with 140 kmh!

Because you cannot do it, does not mean it cannot be done.

zardozid
02-16-2008, 06:59 PM
One of the "AI's" favorite maneuvers is the "hammerhead" (and it's a good one to practice). A good reversal is all about knowing when you still have enough "E" to keep from "wallowing" at the top...

It seems the "AI's" library of maneuvers consists of a basic "diving attack" followed by a zoom climb/hammerhead...hard break turns...the scissors maneuvers...and jinking around. I don't think I have ever had the "AI" "(Hi or Low) Yo-Yo" on me...Has anyone seen the "AI" pull one of these moves?

Klemm.co
02-16-2008, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by zardozid:
One of the "AI's" favorite maneuvers is the "hammerhead" (and it's a good one to practice). A good reversal is all about knowing when you still have enough "E" to keep from "wallowing" at the top...

It seems the "AI's" library of maneuvers consists of a basic "diving attack" followed by a zoom climb/hammerhead...hard break turns...the scissors maneuvers...and jinking around. I don't think I have ever had the "AI" "(Hi or Low) Yo-Yo" on me...Has anyone seen the "AI" pull one of these moves?
You forgot the flying in a straight line for a long time manouver when you finally manouvered yourself behind them.
They do this to give you a more than easy chance to shoot them down
for finally managing to outmanouver them and get behind them.
Makes the AI look even more stupid to me.
And they never win (or even manage to stay behind you) in a scissors. Pathetic.
Just yesterday i had a real scissors online. Though i did not manage to get behind him he stalled,
spinned and crashed right into the water in the end.
Something the AI also never does, stalling.
Its really no fun anymore offline. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Lt_Letum
02-17-2008, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by zardozid:
One of the "AI's" favorite maneuvers is the "hammerhead" (and it's a good one to practice). A good reversal is all about knowing when you still have enough "E" to keep from "wallowing" at the top...

Just to be fussy:
It is not "E" that stops you wallowing at the top, it is speed. You will still wallow if you are slow at 20ft (low E) or 20,000ft (high E).

E is about altitude, not just speed.

Ratsack
02-17-2008, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by Lt_Letum:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zardozid:
One of the "AI's" favorite maneuvers is the "hammerhead" (and it's a good one to practice). A good reversal is all about knowing when you still have enough "E" to keep from "wallowing" at the top...

Just to be fussy:
It is not "E" that stops you wallowing at the top, it is speed. You will still wallow if you are slow at 20ft (low E) or 20,000ft (high E).

E is about altitude, not just speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Arr, but it be relative, matey. If you be wallowing at 20k and he's roight behind 'ee, then you've got low E relative to 'im.

Less E, more aieeee!

Ratsack

Lt_Letum
02-17-2008, 03:05 AM
when talking about a manover involveing one plane, E is relative to a stationary object at ground level.

Ratsack
02-17-2008, 03:10 AM
But matee, what does 'wallowing at the top' matter if ye be alone?

And arr you talking plane or aeroplane?

Ratsack

Lurch1962
02-18-2008, 07:42 PM
I don't think I have ever had the "AI" "(Hi or Low) Yo-Yo" on me...Has anyone seen the "AI" pull one of these moves?

I have indeed noticed AI while chasing me with excessive speed (relative to me) as I turn hard will do something of a high yo-yo in order to bleed speed. Now, as I do a lot of my flying in early war crates (against similar-vintage enemies) at very low level, the altitude might have something to do with it.

zardozid
02-19-2008, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Lt_Letum:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zardozid:
One of the "AI's" favorite maneuvers is the "hammerhead" (and it's a good one to practice). A good reversal is all about knowing when you still have enough "E" to keep from "wallowing" at the top...

Just to be fussy:
It is not "E" that stops you wallowing at the top, it is speed. You will still wallow if you are slow at 20ft (low E) or 20,000ft (high E).

E is about altitude, not just speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If your wallowing at 20,000 feet your have "potential energy" in altitude (but your current energy state is low)...

K_Freddie
02-19-2008, 12:53 AM
Stall turn.. such a plain boring move... add a bit of spice, mix it..

At about 50knots/mph before stall sortof level out and turn in a tight circle, keeping yourself side-on to your persuer (minimal target). This is the point that their engine torque will make them stall before they expect it, and you're half turned already for the reversal....

Imagination... is all I want from you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fiasco1969
02-19-2008, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Lt_Letum:
when talking about a manover involveing one plane, E is relative to a stationary object at ground level.

E isn't relative to a stationary object on the ground.

E is one of two things. Kinetic energy (speed) or potential (stored) energy (altitude)

K_Freddie
02-19-2008, 01:12 PM
here we go...
ZZZZZZZzzzzzzeeeeEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeZZZZZZZZzzzz phutt!!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

Bremspropeller
02-19-2008, 05:57 PM
The AI...hate em, but can't live without them.

They keep amazing me, zooming by and going straight up although having the lower initial speed for a vertical maneuvre.

raaaid
02-20-2008, 08:00 AM
its very easy to do you just have to chop of power at the top of it

GH_Klingstroem
02-20-2008, 08:21 AM
I do it all the time online. I just make sure that I spiral up to the top if there is someone on my 6. He has to pull harder to get that deflection in as you both spiral (thus bleeding more E) up and he will 99% of the times stall below you even in the cases where he had just slightly more E to start with (obviously one has to know HIS e-state when performing this manouver). When he stalls I just flip over at the top in a controlled hammerhead and fall down on him with my guns firing. Sometimes he is even still spinning from the stall when I swoop down and fire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Blutarski2004
02-20-2008, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
I do it all the time online. I just make sure that I spiral up to the top if there is someone on my 6. He has to pull harder to get that deflection in as you both spiral (thus bleeding more E) up and he will 99% of the times stall below you even in the cases where he had just slightly more E to start with (obviously one has to know HIS e-state when performing this manouver). When he stalls I just flip over at the top in a controlled hammerhead and fall down on him with my guns firing. Sometimes he is even still spinning from the stall when I swoop down and fire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


.....Is that allowed??

K_Freddie
02-20-2008, 11:18 AM
There's a ww2 guncam clip of a Messy spinning... so I guess it's allowed.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Blutarski2004
02-20-2008, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
There's a ww2 guncam clip of a Messy spinning... so I guess it's allowed.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


..... It's really a "Messy" when it hits the ground. Heh heh.

M_Gunz
02-20-2008, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by potver:
I saw it several times, the plane I persued went up, reversed in a second and dives down?!?
Is it an Ai manouvre which isn,t really doable?
Thanks in advance.

It is a wingover that does not take the time to stall out and leaves you less of a target while
doing. It is and has been a standard since WWI.

That is one root move of 'turning in the vertical'. While your plane is going up or down you
can roll yourself to a new compass direction much quicker than riding a flat circle. It is
why properly used roll can beat stall turns.

EDITED

M_Gunz
02-20-2008, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
I do it all the time online. I just make sure that I spiral up to the top if there is someone on my 6. He has to pull harder to get that deflection in as you both spiral (thus bleeding more E) up and he will 99% of the times stall below you even in the cases where he had just slightly more E to start with (obviously one has to know HIS e-state when performing this manouver). When he stalls I just flip over at the top in a controlled hammerhead and fall down on him with my guns firing. Sometimes he is even still spinning from the stall when I swoop down and fire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You're GOOD!

major_setback
02-21-2008, 02:41 AM
When you are goin slow, for example near the apex of a hammerhead or stall-turn, you can use more flaps without damaging them (landing flaps), then pull a really tight elevator turn. This might have been what you saw.

potver
02-22-2008, 02:14 AM
Thanks again all for posting.
The flap-thing is very helpfull I guess.
Have to try it out.

bluedragon1950
02-22-2008, 12:17 PM
M_Gunz: is this the WINGOVER you meant?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3YQDBp2V4

M_Gunz
02-22-2008, 06:13 PM
No. At the start that was a nose low turn but he didn't keep turning. Dropping a little
in the start of a turn lowers the G's you have to pull to make the turn, you can turn
tighter and faster then recover your alt on the second half of the turn. Lower your power
in the start and see the plane will begin the turn quicker, then bring the power back up.
By comparison a falt turn made nose slightly high to keep alt is wasteful, wide and slow.

You rise up in a wingover but unlike a hammerhead you don't go to the full stop but rather
roll and turn while you have enough speed for good control.

From the Wiki on Aerobatics: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobatic_maneuver)

Wingover; left or right 180? tight turn (yaw) at the top of a 1/4 looping (up)

The NASA page has a diagram, the turn is wide by scale though, not tight (http://www.nasascale.org/maneuvers/wing_over.htm)

Warbirds page showing animation and text below. (http://www.furball.warbirdsiii.com/krod/ACM-wingover.html)

You're up and on the way back down before a hammerhead has coasted to a stop leaving you a
sitting duck to death from above. Not saying the wingover makes you totally safe but it
cuts your slow time and more important, it gets you back on your own target down below.

As long as you have the speed, your lift vector can be used to jink so why run to a stop
unless you have to?

When you're topping the curve or just before you come down you also have the speed to roll
onto any new vector and change your exit direction. But you need the speed to roll without
stalling and chancing a spin.